Is there anything you can do to punish cadets, and not be "hazing"?
Yah so you can't make them do pushups or clean latrines,
Here's 10 valid alternatives (although some require your commander):
recurring on the spot correction
being barred from what they want to do until they do what they need to do
teach a class, give a speech, write a paper on (subject they have failed)
retained in grade (non-promoted)
fired from assigned staff position
verbal counseling
written counseling
suspension
demotion
termination
Make them dress like a sailor
Quote from: Flying Pig on August 30, 2011, 02:52:00 AM
Make them dress like a sailor
Heh, doesn't work if some are sea cadets...
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 30, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
Is there anything you can do to punish cadets, and not be "hazing"?
How about instead of punishing them for "bad" behavior, reward them for "good" behavior. But seriously, why ask such a question. This sounds like someone trying to figure out a way to game the system so they can do their favorite "let's mess with Sasquatch" routine on the cadets. BTW, there are no bad cadets, just poor leaders.
Quote from: ol'fido on August 30, 2011, 03:01:38 AM
BTW, there are no bad cadets, just poor leaders.
Not true...
You asked for it, Rob!
(http://members.cox.net/dragnd/usmc_hm.gif)
:clap: ;D I knew you'd be back!
Quote from: davidsinn on August 30, 2011, 03:04:19 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on August 30, 2011, 03:01:38 AM
BTW, there are no bad cadets, just poor leaders.
Not true...
There are definitly bad cadets.
For you information, I am a C/Sra(I would be a SSgt if the CC would let me take my review board) So I'm not trying to punish anyone. I was just wondering, what is allowed.
I have counselled bad actor cadets (note I did not say "bad cadets") on a couple of occasions, thankfully not many.
First of all, it goes without saying that ANY kind of "punitive PT" ist absolut verboten. I unfortunately had to put the kibosh on that with an overzealous Cadet CC when I was a Safety Officer who thought he was Gunny Hartmann.
The administrative sanctions listed by coudano are all allowed, to the best of my knowledge.
I have always followed the maxim "praise in public but admonish in private," with a modifier: never do it just one on one. With cadets it's automatic because of CPPT but with another SM junior in rank to you, have someone with you, because just one-to-one in today's litigious society...
I am usually quite extravagant with praise (in public) and try to be as limited and to the point as I can with private admonition.
I would modify Captain Sinn's statement about it being untrue there are no bad cadets (if that's what he meant) to "there are cadets who are just not suitable for the CAP environment."
Quote from: CyBorg on August 30, 2011, 03:18:20 AM
never do it just one on one. With cadets it's automatic because of CPPT
care to justify that one with some sort of reg cite?
Quote from: CyBorg on August 30, 2011, 03:18:20 AM
I have always followed the maxim "praise in public but admonish in private," with a modifier: never do it just one on one. With cadets it's automatic because of CPPT but with another SM junior in rank to you, have someone with you, because just one-to-one in today's litigious society...
Umm, No.
Nothing in CPP even remotely suggests that it is wrong or improper to counsel cadets one-on-one.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with having another cadet or senior present, either. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with counseling a cadet privately.
Please don't treat cadets like some sort of IED waiting to blow up in your face. Challenge them, mentor them, and lead them.
But don't invent a lot of hyper-technical "who is in sight of whom" rules for dealing with our cadets. We have a terrific CPP that relies on a few basic rules and a lot of common sense administered by experienced CP officers present at every cadet activity.
Quote from: Flying Pig on August 30, 2011, 02:52:00 AM
Make them dress like a sailor
Or any other member of the "Village People".....Robert, you will have to remind me to tell you the best Marine/Navy joke ever invented....to bad it could never be said here....
Major Lord
Quote from: CyBorg on August 30, 2011, 03:18:20 AM
I would modify Captain Sinn's statement about it being untrue there are no bad cadets (if that's what he meant) to "there are cadets who are just not suitable for the CAP environment."
That's a polite way of putting it but there are people out there that are just plain bad. Some of them might have been cadets. I have had a cadet before that I would put in that category.
Quote from: Major Lord on August 30, 2011, 03:50:01 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on August 30, 2011, 02:52:00 AM
Make them dress like a sailor
Or any other member of the "Village People".....Robert, you will have to remind me to tell you the best Marine/Navy joke ever invented....to bad it could never be said here....
Major Lord
Please PM that joke... ;D
Nevertheless the point stands, that when you are counseling someone, you are identifying their specific deficient behavior (and specific course of correction for that behavior), not your opinion of their intrinsic worth as a human being.
In other words:
Cadet Snuffy, you are a dirtbag! (wrong)
Drop and give me 20, until you figure out how to not be such a slob (also wrong)
Cadet Snuffy, there is visible lint and pet hair on your trousers, in violation of CAPR 39-1 Table 2-5 item 1.
This is the third time you have been cited for this violation, as documented previously (date) and (date).
You will not receive any positive administrative action (attendance at selective activities, promoted to your next stripe, hired for a desired staff position) until you have passed three consecutive uniform inspections, I will be watching you specifically on this particular item. I would suggest storing your clean trousers on a hanger until it is time to wear them, investigate cleaning chairs in your home and vehicle, and invest in a lint roller, to do any last minute touch ups if needed. (right)
This is the sort of conversation I would expect to hear an experienced cadet NCO have with a phase 1 cadet assigned under their charge.
Coudano/Ned - So noted. I suppose that with me, due to the time I came into CAP (1993), which was in the aftermath of various scandals that had happened (some I know of, some only rumour and hearsay), I am a bit overcautious in CPPT.
The CPPT "course" I was given as part of my Level I way back then, with the BSA video, was "embellished" a lot with "commentary" from the officer giving the course...quite honestly, the way it was presented to me frightened the crap out of me. It was more or less an emphasis on "CYA" or you'll find yourself out of CAP so fast it'll make your head swim and don't get on the bad side of any cadet because any accusation against a SM will be heard and believed and your chances of defending yourself are extremely poor. Maybe it was that way then, reactionary to some things that had happened. I don't know, but it's stayed with me, along with my honest desire to truly protect our young people and have CAP be a place of safety for them. I didn't have many places of safety as a kid, so I know how it feels. As well, as a newbie in my first unit back then I was often called upon to be that extra person in the room when a cadet was being counselled...since I didn't know a lot about CAP, I didn't say much, just sat there and shut up.
In short, I was told that the only person who could be one-on-one with a cadet was a Chaplain, Medical Officer or Nurse.
It does still happen. I can think of one episode in the past five years where a dedicated CAP officer with several commendations copped an accusation...I don't know how it came out but said officer was so emotionally affected by it that said officer was never seen again around CAP in any form.