im a C/2dLt. My squadron, when i was an airman, had 2 colonels, 4 lieutenants, and 2 captains. behind that was a strong team of dedicated NCOs. all those high-up cadets went to college. and when we got a new commander, we got a new cadet commander too. This match made in heaven ran the place into the ground.
that was 2 years ago. back then, the cadets had the reigns over the cadet side of the squadron, and the incumbent commander understood that. he knew that only cadets could effectively manage cadets, rather than a large group of overbearing seniors. but he left. he was replaced by a new commander, who had different ideas. the new cadet commander pretty much allowed the seniors to walk all over him, and the cadet side slowly slipped into chaos. nothing got done, none of the cadets knew how to drill because the seniors, now pretty much in charge, wouldnt allow us time to do it. the cadets are undisciplined and don't care.
I became XO and i with the next cadet commander worked on ways to solve the situation. it included a changed cadet chain of command, more time for drill and training, focused more on teamwork and leadership exercises, and, above all, cadet independence. take a guess about what the seniors thought about it. yeah, they threw it out.
they recently picked a new commander. i didnt run, because i believed i couldnt make the commitment to the squadron. but in the running was a very experienced captain but not a great leader, and a chief who can handle a flight, but knows nothing about executive command.
aaaannnddddd guess who was picked. they also picked a ssgt to be 1st shirt they same night he was promoted out of airman.
i have lost all faith in the squadron entirely, and it's beyond recovery. i'm seriously considering quitting, and no other squadron is nearby. What should i do?
Quote from: jjb479 on August 29, 2011, 11:24:56 PM...he knew that only cadets could effectively manage cadets,
Much of your issue is in this sentence, more of it is in the next one, the rest is in the last paragraph.
Sounds like my squadron...
Start a new squadron. If things don't change between now, and whenever I get my first snowball, I'm out.
You probably know if you have a couple "good cadets" try and convince them to help a start a new squadron.
A local college that has no ROTC program will probably be willing to give space.
Quote from: jjb479 on August 29, 2011, 11:24:56 PM
i didnt run
Sounds to me like you are fresh out of room to complain.
Winners always want the ball.
We had to deal with this "only cadets should manage cadets" mentality several years ago at encampment. Seniors are not there to drill flights or conduct uniform inspections or to do any of those things that the cadet leadership normally does. Seniors are there to mentor, train, and provide guidance to the cadet leadership so that they can learn to do the same for the cadet airmen. But seniors also have the responsibility to set limits on what the cadets can and cannot do. Good seniors will let cadets "screw the pooch" to a certain extent so that learning can happen but they can't let that go to far outside of regulations or common sense. The cadet program is "cadet run, senior supervised". To often I think some of our cadets see only the former part of that statement and forget the latter.
Sorry, but if the attitude of your post is the one you project in your unit, I'd have picked the other guy, too.
You're supposted to function as a team and to accept the maturity of knowing that things don't always go the way you want them to. You're supposed to be flexible enough to accept the change and then work to excell. If either guy fails, sure it could be their management style, but it's also your's as the follower.
It's called teamwork, maturity and individual responsibility... to achieve the mission.
Next time, look your self in the mirror....remember that others may think the same of you!
Cadet, sometimes you just have to suck it up and get on with it.
I don't think I've ever met a CAP member from either the senior or cadet side who has had everything go their way in their CAP career.
I've been a Deputy Commander before. There were some changes of command in recent months and I wouldn't have minded being selected as Deputy Commander for either SM's or cadets, as I've worked both sides of the house. It didn't happen; the CC selected someone else. Why? RHIP. He probably believes the ones he selected can do the job, and it does me or the unit no good to stew about it.
I hate it that the Corporate Service Uniform was abolished. What can I do about it? Absolutely nothing, except to wear mine until 2359 31 December 2010.
Stand tall and get on with it.
I completely understand where this cadet is coming from.
It is a thin line, the balance between the amount of control the seniors should exert on the cadets, and the amount of control seniors should allow cadets. As mentioned before, the seniors are there to GUIDE the cadet leadership. Not to micromanage, no to control the cadets every move, but to simply guide.
This isn't just your squadron, cadet... Every squadron has has problems, and while some go down, some do stay strong, and pull through the mess. That is up to YOU!
Keep a good attitude, and do what you can. If you are not able to give the commitment that is needed for Cadet Commander, then just be there, as a helper. Help where you can. Its the little things that shape a squadron. You have no idea how much it means to a brand new airman, when you as a C/Officer takes time to talk to him, compliment him and encourage him.
Be optimistic, and lets see just how far that will get you.
I agree with elipod.
Be the best YOU can be. Encourage the new cadets to follow your lead. Eventually things will go more your way.
I understand many of you here don't believe I'm in the right in this situation. And maybe I have not come off as such. I have all the respect in the world for many of the seniors at our squadron. But for the last two years, I, with the others on cadet staff, have been trying to voice our opinions on how the cadets should be managed. The former cadet commander, for instance, was threatened with a 2B for insubordination after he told the DC he thought the cadets should have more time to be taught drill, in place of a CAP history class. I don't know about you, but this strikes me as an abuse of power, simply because we wished to teach cadets who show up for months and still can't perform a facing movement. Is a disagreement in half an hour in a schedule worth terminating him?
If encampments had no cadet staff, how well would the basics learn? We must be granted some very basic freedoms to make sure they get something out of the program.
Perhaps I don't understand the way the senior members look at managing a squadron. I'm not a power hungry-anarchist, seeking total control of the squadron for cadets, and I'm rather offended you paint me as one. I, with many other members of the squadron, believe that particular seniors who don't have a knowledge of drill, or the way cadets interact, shouldn't be ruling us with an iron fist.
I did not run for CC, not because I'm lazy, but because I'm on stress and depression medication to help me to live my life, between high school and cap and lacrosse and the various clubs I participate in. And a CC needs to be always available, which you all must certainly agree.
I'm sorry if I come off as rude or disrespectful, but please, I'm not here to be so. I came here seeking advice from wise and experienced members of the program, not a condescending reprimand.
Sorry, even in your pseudo-mea culpa you're continuing to exhibit an "I know better" attitude.
There is no way for anyone here to really know if you are giving us the whole story or not, but those of us with experience in these matters
can read between your lines, and see what is likely happening.
But that doesn't matter. As a cadet, one of the first lessons you should have taken to heart was that of followership. It is, frankly, the
most important one we teach. Far too many young people grow up with an attitude that the world revolves around them, and their opinion
is always "equal" to everyone else's, regardless of age, experience, or standing.
It doesn't, and it isn't.
Which means that once you have voiced your opinion in a respectful, professional manner, you must accept the response, like it or not, with the only
other option being to work towards a point where you have some say in the matter. The activities and challenges you cite as excuses for not being
interested in being the commander are perfectly acceptable, but frankly fairly typical for others in your age range, and if that is the case, fine, but don't wear them as any justification for disgruntled attitude.
Life is choice, you have chosen other activities over CAP. No problem. Let those who have made CAP a priority run things. Since you have chosen not to "Lead", your only decision left is either to "follow or get out of the way."
Sir, I am a cadet who has served in 5 encampments, posted as a flight sergeant, flight commander, XO and finally aerospace officer, and throughout my time in these positions I have led over 150 cadets.
I'm quite offended you look at me as an arrogant, self-absorbed, hormone-crazed and self-righteous teenager. I am a cadet officer who has worked hard to get to where I am, and I ask for some respect.
I came seeking advice to help get me through a time when I feel I am obsolete, serve no further purpose at this squadron, and discontent with my standing in this program. Evidently, there's none to be found here.
This is my last post. I'm not running from an argument, like you would accuse me of, but because I see no purpose in continuing the debate.
Allow me to make it clear, I'm grovelling before no one. I'm not searching for compliments or a nice pep talk, I simply needed some help. I realize you will see this, too, as self-righteous, but, you see, that is no longer of my concern.
Oi, 2d Lt jjb.
Seriously. You're putting words in others mouths.
You cannot ask for respect. You must earn it. So far, here, you haven't. Especially with the post above mine.
I've had my rough patches in CAP- everyone has. I served as C/CC in CAP while also taking a full courseload in high school, and fulfilling multiple key roles in JROTC.
I wasn't the greatest and was constantly being counseled and taught and informed on my performance for better or worse, but I did it. You have to make the decision on whether you are going to do CAP or not; only you know if it is for you.
As far as you not taking the C/CC position- Much like the Presidential elections, if you don't vote (or run) but are allowed to then you have no room to complain.
Yet another one who cant take some constructive criticism... It gets old :/
jjb479: You came here for answers. We gave you our opinion. If you weren't willing to accept it, and maybe, try to grow from it, you should have never asked.
I find it hard to accept that many on here is actually willing to assist in any questions that come across here.
Cadets come here for advice and it's thrown back on them that it's their fault somehow.
I'm not saying everyone does it but it has become the norm for others.
We all have typed something that doesn't come across properly and that's probably the main problem, however, the recipient of that message may consider it an insult. It happens all the time in e-mails, texts, etc.
If we are to build these cadets up into outstanding citizens of the community, we need to answer the questions better than the "Suck it up and move on" or "it's a part of life" mentality. That doesn't answer the questions asked.
I know when I was a cadet, I wanted answers to questions that didn't necessarily affect me directly. Without seeming embarrassed, I just kept them to myself because of it. I didn't have CAPTalk then, although after seeing some of these answers given to other cadets, I would still probably keep them to myself!
I agree with the poster above, I sent the op a pm, that he should read.
It outlines what you should be telling this cadet.
First: move up the chain
Second:http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/u_082503080301.pdf
Believe it or not, not everyone is lying, and sometimes it IS the full story. C'mon you guys are adults, you are supposed to give wisdom to young adults. Personally, I am ashamed to see the ranks on some of you guys... You shouldn't have those ranks if you are going to act like this, and troll everyone with a problem! I'd hate to see the way you guys address problems in your squadrons!
Get you acts together, and give cadets decent advice. I know emos that are more optimistic than you guys!
If this post gets me banned: so be it. I did it with a purpose, rather than trolling someone outside of the forum regulars.
Why are the lessons of followership lost on our cadets?
In this case, how he reacts, adapts, and overcomes, could be the single biggest factor in whether things actually change in the unit or get worse.
Poor leaders won't become "better" by having every idea that present challenged, or through constant derision from the ranks. If anything, poor leaders need more support to help them get through the learning curves and shore up their confidence to stand at the front of the room.
This lesson is also lost in American politics, but I digress...
Again, this has to be one of the most important lessons we can teach our cadets, yet we are so focused on them "achieving" as individuals, we lose sight of the team, which lives and dies by whether people can "salute and execute". Whether it's the "captain of our sports team", that "...little college runt from finance who's gonna show me how to make widgets after 30 years in the industry...", or that "...jerk from Scranton who keeps touching my stuff..." we are constantly confronted by people in positions of authority with whom we don't agree but must comply if we are to achieve our goals.
Anyone with a Red Service ribbon should understand that, especially a cadet officer.
This cadet chose to not be at the tip of the spear in regards to fixing the leadership issues he perceives. That's fine, but now his job is to be supportive of those who accepted the mantle, and concentrate on what he can do to help, without making every conversation confrontational about how little everyone else around him in CAP knows.
Extreme: I don't believe anyone said he was lying.
To me it is simple he wants to be supportive by finding alternatives, shown by asking for advice here.
Or is it to all of you criticizing him that being supportive is being a "yes, sir" or "yes, ma'am?"
That is precisely how organizations are run into the ground.
my advice was based exactly (pretty much word for word) on what I would have told any one of my cadets from my squadron, if they came to me disaffected, but unwilling (for any variety of possibly legitimate reasons) to participate and work through it.
I could regail you with horror stories about unfair, ridiculous, and infuriating stories about my senior members when I was a cadet. And no, they didn't know better, yes they were being lazy/apathetic, and no I wasn't just being a self centered teenage brat. But I didn't quit. I tried (in vain) to do the best I could with what I had, albeit similar to banging my head against the wall at times (guess what, in the real world you are going to have bosses who are stupid, short sighted, and inconsiderate as well. Get used to it). And years later, at another squadron, with different leadership, my ideas had better effect. And a few years after that when i turned senior, I became a leadership officer and then deputy commander, where I was now the guy in charge, and my ideas had ultimate effect. I now run a pretty rockin local program.
However, if I had given up and walked away (for any one of a variety of completely valid reasons that were available to me) none of that would have ever happened.
And that's not the wrong answer for some people. It's your life, and it's your decision. Do what you can't not do, and don't look back. No regrets.
Your attitude and your participation are your choice. Choose wisely. Remember, following the cadet oath is a phase 1 skill... If you are choosing not to do it anymore, then you aren't living up to phase 1 standards, let alone phase 3 standards. That is up to you and nobody else.
I did not see that the OP was really asking for advice.
He has already written off his squadron.
He thinks he knows more about how the CP should be run then the officers appointed to run it.
He has washed his hands of really trying to fix it by taking an active role in leadership.
Having said that......
If you cadets really can't march...then they are not promoting.....ergo a simple e-mail to your group or wing CP officer for help should be enough to get some help.
Other then that.....what can you say.
Sometimes the best/right advice is "stop your bellyaching and move on Airman!"
Cadet, I understand where you are coming from but I also understand and agree with much of the advice you have received. First, quitting anf starting a new squadron is bad precident. You will face this situation many times in your future whether in the military or in business. More of life is spent working with less then perfect leaders then with perfect leaders. Second, be paet of the solution. Make the best of a bad situation and help your young cadets as much as YOU can. Working with cadets is a very fine line for seniors and balancing leading with guiding. It does not always work well. If you feel compelled, seek respectful advice from your Wing CP or other squadrons. They will know details and background of your situtation way better then anyone here. Maybe your Cadet Advisory Council rep could seek some advice about how other squadrons work.
Nobody here is trying to portray you as anything...just making a call based on a few words on a computer screen. Remember, the adults are not getting paid to work with cadets, they are volunteers. As such, give them a break. They are not purposely trying to make you miserable.
Don't cop out, look for some help from your area and try your best to improve the situation. If you find that you can't deal with it, then it is your responsibility to excuse yourself from serving and quietly leave. If the situation is really that bad, it will eventually correct itself as the cadet membership drops. I'm not saying that is good, but it will eventually right itself.
Remember, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Hard to hear I know, but it is the hard truth.
Lordmonar,
Quote... have lost all faith in the squadron entirely, and it's beyond recovery. i'm seriously considering quitting, and no other squadron is nearby. What should i do?
It seems to me in the very last line he asks for help. He may have said he wanted to quit, but that is despair talking after he has tried everything he could think. Somerimes you say stuff that you do not really mean when you despair. You guys put him in the defensive.
Instead of the help he needed, you guys tarred and embarrased him. This may work in the military for recruits who are not performing up to par, but guess what? CAP is not under fire.
You call yourselves "leaders of young men?" Then you should have recognized the syndrome of despair, for Pete's sake!
Flyer333555
I think it is amusing that a couple people are saying we should have "offered advice", but don't say what that advice should have been.
Maybe you should reread my post. ;p
Go up the chain, and a link to the complaints reg.
To the people that have been saying "that's life".
I agree, but he is still a teenager,(he can quit! He can give up on one thing, at his age, it can't hurt) it isn't a job,(so he isn't tied to the situation cause he make his living there) annnddd he can help change the leadership. :)
Quote from: Eclipse on September 03, 2011, 02:55:12 AM
I think it is amusing that a couple people are saying we should have "offered advice", but don't say what that advice should have been.
If this is referred to me then my answer is probably because I had no useful advice for this cadet at that time. But I'm also not telling them to suck it up and move on either.
It's a matter of guiding these kids in the right direction. It shouldn't be like it was in the past. Who cares how it was WIWAC. Things change and we should take our experiences as senior members who were cadets and keep from making the same mistakes our senior members did. Simply saying "My Senior Member treated me like crap when I was a cadet so I should be able to do it as well" is not the point we should be making.
My advice to the cadet now is to not use CAPTalk to ask for advice.
"My dad sayin' quit that team and, you'll be a quitter for the rest of your life"
Country music holds all answers.
He's gone, by the way. I think we can let this one die a natural death.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 03, 2011, 04:12:08 AM
"My dad sayin' quit that team and, you'll be a quitter for the rest of your life"
Country music holds all answers.
He's gone, by the way. I think we can let this one die a natural death.
I quit once. Does that mean I will forever quit everything? I think not.
The reason I quit said thing(not CAP at all): I felt that the leader was an idiot, and was a creep. Guess what I found out, he molested kids... So was I wrong to quit?
I have one piece of advice that may or may not help the OP.
Sometimes, there are things going on that cadets aren't privy to in the program. There are members, both cadet and senior who have their own ideas on how things should be run. Those ideas don't always mesh, and thus you can either compromise and work with each other to make things better, or wait and see if time and change happen naturally and things can be made better later.
Drill is required for promotion in the cadet program. If your senior members are not allowing for drill, nor are they ensuring the drill tests are being administered especially under the new leadership books, they need to be informed of this error and shown why they should allow for drill and ceremonies and not just told they should be allowing time for D&C because you want to drill. (I'm not saying this is your reasoning, it's an example.)
Be the best example of leadership and followership you can be for your fellow cadets and senior members alike. Do what you can to provide your squadron with a good example and help your subordinates along the path. Things will change and be different.