CAP Talk

There is an extensive thread discussing this topic here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13035.0
And, after such a long discussion I thought it might be worthwhile to get some stats on what people think. 

In a perfect world, all the branches will end up switching to a unified permament uniform that we'll adopt and wear for a long time. ABU's? Unlikely, but plausible.

Either option 1 or 2... Depending on delays.  Option 2 seems like the smart choice at this point however.

Why worry about switching uniforms? We already have one that works.

Quote from: Thrash on August 18, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
Why worry about switching uniforms? We already have one that works.

Surplus stores are running out of used ones and for some people buying things online is a hassle. There's no real shortage, and BDU's are perfectly usable, but the fact remains that it's an old uniform.

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 18, 2011, 08:48:41 PM

Quote from: Thrash on August 18, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
Why worry about switching uniforms? We already have one that works.

Surplus stores are running out of used ones and for some people buying things online is a hassle. There's no real shortage, and BDU's are perfectly usable, but the fact remains that it's an old uniform.

Plus we're the AF Auxiliary and the AF, very soon, no longer wears that uniform.

How about a yes or no option?

None of the above answer the question.  The answer is "no".

I bought an M-65 Field Jacket last year on BDU.com. This year they were gone, and Propper does not make them anymore. A shame, because I wanted a good Propper one for my BBDUs.

I don't see the services switching to a single field uniform anytime soon (as in the next 5 years).  There is simply no money in the budget for it.

So....CAP will switch to ABUs.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on August 18, 2011, 09:23:57 PM
I bought an M-65 Field Jacket last year on BDU.com. This year they were gone, and Propper does not make them anymore. A shame, because I wanted a good Propper one for my BBDUs.

The surplus store where I live has racks full of new ones- you just have to know where to look.

(IMO the M-65's are garbage, and I got a Gote-tex parka to replace mine.)

Someday, hopefully within the next 5 years, the DOD will go back to a single combat/utility uniform. Add several years to that for phase in, and maybe CAP will be considered for them in 10 years.

I don't like it, but it's preferable to switching to a uniform (ABUs) that is in all likelihood going to be ditched soon.

I really don't see the headache when it comes to developing a DOD wide uniform. They are issuing MultiCam patterned ACUs to pretty much everyone in Afghanistan at this point. The camouflage pattern works, the ACU design seems like a good one now that they have had time to refine it, and it's already being issued to multiple branches in theater. Just go with that and get it over with. Allow for a nice long phase in time to make it budget friendly and to use up the stock of uniforms already produced.

Quote from: DC on August 18, 2011, 10:52:17 PM
I really don't see the headache when it comes to developing a DOD wide uniform. They are issuing MultiCam patterned ACUs to pretty much everyone in Afghanistan at this point. The camouflage pattern works, the ACU design seems like a good one now that they have had time to refine it, and it's already being issued to multiple branches in theater. Just go with that and get it over with.

emphasis mine. +1

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2011, 09:05:44 PM
How about a yes or no option?

None of the above answer the question.  The answer is "no".

What I think you're saying then is that CAP will wear BDUs until the end of time.- in other words, no change ever.  I've added that option. 

Only time will tell . . .

I wasn't in CAP when we switched to the BDU. It makes me think  if similar discussions took place when the AF switched to the BDU , and how long it took CAP to follow.

Quote from: RiverAux on August 19, 2011, 04:42:01 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2011, 09:05:44 PM
How about a yes or no option?

None of the above answer the question.  The answer is "no".

What I think you're saying then is that CAP will wear BDUs until the end of time.- in other words, no change ever.  I've added that option.

No, what I'm saying is the answer to your questions is "no" (as in we will never wear ABU's).  You added like 12 scenarios and asterisks
to the answers.

We will never wear ABU's.

How about this option: "I'm so sick of this topic that I may puke the next time someone starts a thread about it. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

 :clap:

Quote from: ol'fido on August 19, 2011, 09:53:16 PM
How about this option: "I'm so sick of this topic that I may puke the next time someone starts a thread about it. :P

Fairly true. All the discussing on CAP Talk in the world won't bring ABU's any closer or farther to use in CAP.

Quote from: ol'fido on August 19, 2011, 09:53:16 PM
How about this option: "I'm so sick of this topic that I may puke the next time someone starts a thread about it. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Well, at least if it's on some sort of digit-pat or multi-cam no one will see it!

Why don't we replace the BDU with the ABU?
v
v
v
v
(waiting for ol'fido to puke all over his keyboard)

Well, if you barf on your utility uniform, then you'd have a PUDU.  :P >:D

Quote from: BillB on August 19, 2011, 10:45:23 PM
Why don't we replace the BDU with the ABU?
v
v
v
v
(waiting for ol'fido to puke all over his keyboard)

Brrraaacckkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!! ;D

Hey there are 11 votes that CAP will drop the AF uniform andf go to BBDUs.    How did RM get to vote 11 times?

Well, half of us want to stay in BDUs(but change the color of the tapes). Half of us want to switch to ABUs(but change the color of the tapes). And half of us want to change to [insert the name of your favorite camo pattern here](but change the color of the tapes). Another half want to go to something different altogether(but change the color of the tapes). And Radioman is still scared crapless that we'll somehow be confused with military and be called "wannabes"(but he wants to change the color of the tapes(to red)). How many times do we need to re-,re-,re-,re-,re-,(can I get away with one more re-)(thanks!)re-hash this whole conversation.  :P :P ;D

Quote from: titanII on August 19, 2011, 10:02:26 PMFairly true. All the discussing on CAP Talk in the world won't bring ABU's any closer or farther to use in CAP.

Dunno.. you can see how one post in another thread seems to have been used as a catapult for an action ... one post.  ;)

Quote from: a2capt on August 20, 2011, 03:07:07 PM
Dunno.. you can see how one post in another thread seems to have been used as a catapult for an action ... one post.  ;)

Interestingly enough, the National Uniform Committee met on Friday night here in Louisville and now that we have completed most of the work on the corporate uniform recommendations, have now begun work on the USAF-style uniforms.

And one of our major topics of discussion was ABUs.  And we talked about many ofthe same things that ABU threads on CT have repeatedly discussed:  costs, availability, possible impending USAF changes, the necessity and USAF approval, and ensuring lengthy transition periods as necessary.

Now would be a good time to track down your region's representative to the NUC and express your views on the ABU issue.

Ned Lee
Member, NUC

Quote from: Ned on August 20, 2011, 03:26:59 PM

Quote from: a2capt on August 20, 2011, 03:07:07 PM
Dunno.. you can see how one post in another thread seems to have been used as a catapult for an action ... one post.  ;)

Interestingly enough, the National Uniform Committee met on Friday night here in Louisville and now that we have completed most of the work on the corporate uniform recommendations, have now begun work on the USAF-style uniforms.

And one of our major topics of discussion was ABUs.  And we talked about many ofthe same things that ABU threads on CT have repeatedly discussed:  costs, availability, possible impending USAF changes, the necessity and USAF approval, and ensuring lengthy transition periods as necessary.

Now would be a good time to track down your region's representative to the NUC and express your views on the ABU issue.

Ned Lee
Member, NUC

Can I put in a  request for a new 39-1 before ya'll go changing stuff? All I want is for the ICLs to be rolled in. Shouldn't take more than a few hours to do.

QuoteThe AF will switch to something else before CAP starts wearing ABUs and that CAP will eventually move directly to the next uniform, whatever that may be, and will stay in BDUs until then.

Really?  Move "directly to the next uniform?"  No...I think not.  They would have to conduct their plethora of studies, hem and haw and then continually bicker until the replacement for the replacement for the replacement is lining the walls of museums and thriftshops all over the nation.

Meanwhile, BDUS remain until they are no longer manufactured to the standards set to what will then be the standards of a decade or more before.

Then we will have CAPTALKERS knocking the only existing BDUs as not meeting standard, or having a less then standard pattern or many more things yet to be created in the SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME.

Therefore...I voted "NO OPINION" in protest.

Ya know, back in the very early 90's CAP switched to BDU's. The AF had switched several years before then. I was a cadet in the late 80's till the beginning of the 90's.

I'm sure had we had Captalk back then, we would have had the same arguments and opinions we have now. I'm positive some people in CAP thought we would never go to BDU since fatigues were still available and there simply was not a reason to make a switch.......same arguments we have now.

  In time, because we are the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary we will make a transition into ABU's, we have transitioned into every other Air Force uniform since the history of our organization.

The difference this time is that there seems to be every possibility that the AF may make a switch to something else in the near future. That wasn't the case during the green to BDU transition.

If it seemed solid that ABUs would be the AF uniform for the next 10 years or so, I'd agree that CAP would switch to them, but that doesn't look like a sure thing this time.

I hope we will go to one field uniform and one flight uniform that EVERYONE can wear and that's how I voted, since again from a public relations standpoint it provides easy identification/uniqueness  and potential branding support.  HOWEVER, there needs to be a very long transition period (3 years).  Also I really don't think economically most of the membership is interested in any new uniforms that would require a complete change of everything.
RM

We will not get ABU's, considering that their future in the AF is doubtful.

I agree with RiverAux's assessment.

Personally, as I've said, I would like to see us go to solid green BDU's...it would be a nod to our heritage (especially if the CAP "overseas" shoulder crest were worn), it would look "military" and it could not be confused with what any Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine or Coastie is wearing.  We could conceivably wear them with solid green subdued tapes and grade insignia; it is a CAP-distinctive (as much as I hate that term) uniform and does not require AF approval.

RM, please leave CAP and join the Salvation Army, maybe you could find happiness there. Actually the US Ranger Corps needs members.......could be for you!!  ;D

Quote from: davidsinn on August 20, 2011, 03:39:17 PM

Quote from: Ned on August 20, 2011, 03:26:59 PM

Quote from: a2capt on August 20, 2011, 03:07:07 PM
Dunno.. you can see how one post in another thread seems to have been used as a catapult for an action ... one post.  ;)

Interestingly enough, the National Uniform Committee met on Friday night here in Louisville and now that we have completed most of the work on the corporate uniform recommendations, have now begun work on the USAF-style uniforms.

And one of our major topics of discussion was ABUs.  And we talked about many ofthe same things that ABU threads on CT have repeatedly discussed:  costs, availability, possible impending USAF changes, the necessity and USAF approval, and ensuring lengthy transition periods as necessary.

Now would be a good time to track down your region's representative to the NUC and express your views on the ABU issue.

Ned Lee
Member, NUC

Can I put in a  request for a new 39-1 before ya'll go changing stuff? All I want is for the ICLs to be rolled in. Shouldn't take more than a few hours to do.

*grumble*  That's what my CAP uniform site was for...  grrrrrr...

Ned, can we get the slides from the NB meeting for the uniform committee?

I have a feeling that the NB is going to do very little to resolve the ambiguity of "not being confused with the Armed Forces," not without getting us out of the AF uniform entirely (save it, RM).  Why?  Because they can't.  Unless it's so completely different in cut and shade of blue (think RAF grey-blue, RAAF midnight blue or Luftwaffe graublau), there's always going to be someone choosing not to look any further to recognise it is a CAP uniform.

(http://onlinemilitaria.com/images/RAF_Uniform.jpg)

(http://editthis.info/images/daily_escape/4/44/ServiceDressRAAF.jpg)

(http://gowenmilitaria.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/WGUN6.jpg)

And, unfortunately, that means that we're probably stuck with the grey/white/blazer. >:(

Not if Radioman gets a red service uniform implemented...

Quote from: Ned on August 20, 2011, 03:26:59 PM

Quote from: a2capt on August 20, 2011, 03:07:07 PM
Dunno.. you can see how one post in another thread seems to have been used as a catapult for an action ... one post.  ;)

Interestingly enough, the National Uniform Committee met on Friday night here in Louisville and now that we have completed most of the work on the corporate uniform recommendations, have now begun work on the USAF-style uniforms.

And one of our major topics of discussion was ABUs.  And we talked about many ofthe same things that ABU threads on CT have repeatedly discussed:  costs, availability, possible impending USAF changes, the necessity and USAF approval, and ensuring lengthy transition periods as necessary.

Now would be a good time to track down your region's representative to the NUC and express your views on the ABU issue.

Ned Lee
Member, NUC

Can we get a list of the members so we might track them down?

Quote from: JC004 on August 20, 2011, 08:57:45 PMNot if Radioman gets a red service uniform implemented...

Then the Red Service Ribbon would ... have to be changed.  ;D

Quote from: RiverAux on August 20, 2011, 07:03:54 PM
The difference this time is that there seems to be every possibility that the AF may make a switch to something else in the near future. That wasn't the case during the green to BDU transition.

If it seemed solid that ABUs would be the AF uniform for the next 10 years or so, I'd agree that CAP would switch to them, but that doesn't look like a sure thing this time.

Hey, that's what I was gonna say...     ;D

+1

I don't think we can make an accurate prediction on this matter, because it's not clear whether or not USAF will stick with ABU's for much longer.

Theres been nothing through channels about a change, except the multicam pattern for Afghanistan.

Quote from: abdsp51 on August 21, 2011, 01:14:20 PM
Theres been nothing through channels about a change, except the multicam pattern for Afghanistan.

It's not hard to read the tea leaves. They are using MultiCam in theater because they finally figured out the the UCP/ABU pattern sucks as camouflage. I'm sure someone is smart enough to realize that UCP's issues are not limited to the borders of Afghanistan, and that a viable replacement is needed for all situations, not just OEF. Add the fact that Congress has made/is making noise about the ridiculous cost associated with each branch developing their own individual combat uniform. I think within 5 - 10 years there will be a common combat uniform, possibly with a MultiCam pattern. Or, because paying CryePrecision a royalty for every piece of cloth used with their pattern on it is expensive, the U.S. will do what the British did and come up with their own MultiCam-like pattern.

Either way, I cannot see a future where ABUs persist for long.

Quote from: DC on August 22, 2011, 01:18:21 AM
Either way, I cannot see a future where ABUs persist for long.

To be fair, there will never be a future where any uniform will persist for long in any incarnation.

When even the MANUFACTURER won't stand behind the design, that's a bad sign.  Quite simply, the Army, Navy, and Air Force are being silly. 

The fact that the Air Force even considered the first pattern version is scary.  And why, by the way, couldn't they have added enhancements like a bi-swing back in the process (as the Army did)?

(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7923/airforceuniformjq6.jpg)

Quote from: JC004 on August 22, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
When even the MANUFACTURER won't stand behind the design, that's a bad sign.  Quite simply, the Army, Navy, and Air Force are being silly. 

The fact that the Air Force even considered the first pattern version is scary.  And why, by the way, couldn't they have added enhancements like a bi-swing back in the process (as the Army did)?

What's wrong with the new Navy uniform? It meets the Navy's needs, and many of the Sailors I've talked to seem to like it. It certainly doesn't have universal acceptance, but none of the other working uniforms from the last 50 years have, either. I went through a couple of different iterations WIWOAD, and none of them were perfect.

As for the color vs 'hiding', the Navy guys who really need to hide from bad guys will continue to get uniforms to suit the task.

If the AF sought a working uniform that would really camouflage them in the typical wartime working environment for a lot of Airmen, they would go with solid grey BDU's.

I'd better not say that too loudly...the "grey-only" zealots in CAP might get it adopted for us...

Quote from: JC004 on August 22, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7923/airforceuniformjq6.jpg)

Is it me, or does the guy in this picture look like a certain former FLWG member?

Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2011, 06:55:35 AM

Quote from: JC004 on August 22, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
When even the MANUFACTURER won't stand behind the design, that's a bad sign.  Quite simply, the Army, Navy, and Air Force are being silly. 

The fact that the Air Force even considered the first pattern version is scary.  And why, by the way, couldn't they have added enhancements like a bi-swing back in the process (as the Army did)?

What's wrong with the new Navy uniform? It meets the Navy's needs, and many of the Sailors I've talked to seem to like it. It certainly doesn't have universal acceptance, but none of the other working uniforms from the last 50 years have, either. I went through a couple of different iterations WIWOAD, and none of them were perfect.

As for the color vs 'hiding', the Navy guys who really need to hide from bad guys will continue to get uniforms to suit the task.

That's not the Navy's new uniform, that a blue tiger stripe pattern that was one of the early incarnations of the ABU.

The Navy is fine, their uniform is meant to look cool and hide stains while aboard ship. Whatever floats their boat, so to speak.

However, the fact that Air Force, which regularly puts people on the ground in theater (I'm aware that the Navy does too, but they have the common sense to wear USMC or Army uniforms when they are in such a situation), actually considered a bright blue pattern for their combat/utility uniform is... Yeah...  ::)

Quote from: JC004 on August 22, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
When even the MANUFACTURER won't stand behind the design, that's a bad sign.  Quite simply, the Army, Navy, and Air Force are being silly. 

The fact that the Air Force even considered the first pattern version is scary.  And why, by the way, couldn't they have added enhancements like a bi-swing back in the process (as the Army did)?

(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7923/airforceuniformjq6.jpg)

The leftmost pic was sent to me by a friend still active duty. It took a minute for the pic to load, so I didn't see the pants at first, but I honestly thought it was some kind of joke. A "tropic uniform" joke.

I am glad that the button up undershirt thing didn't make it. It looked a lot like one of the undershirts on Star Trek:Enterprise.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 24, 2011, 04:30:51 PMI am glad that the button up undershirt thing didn't make it. It looked a lot like one of the undershirts on Star Trek:Enterprise.

Wear it with a blue CAP flight suit and the "right" patches and you'll look like a crewmember from NX-01.

Quote from: PHall on August 25, 2011, 02:08:10 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 24, 2011, 04:30:51 PMI am glad that the button up undershirt thing didn't make it. It looked a lot like one of the undershirts on Star Trek:Enterprise.

Wear it with a blue CAP flight suit and the "right" patches and you'll look like a crewmember from NX-01.

Exactly. And that's not a look we need to cultivate. No matter how much the Air Force wants to be the "Aerospace Force."