Ok so I have searched the site as well as looked thur 52-16 (present, 2006 and 2003 versions) and have not found anything....so again I turn to the reg masters of CAPTALK
I was asked about requirements for sleep times and meal times (I gues the whole medical guy, health and welfare stuff...whatever)
a-Is there a requirement for minimum hours of sleep per night? I found a staff requirement of 6.5; but that was in the NYWG encampment book...looking for a National standard/reference; if it exists.
b-Length of meal times. Same manual, just says basically dont mess with them when they are eating.....same search need.
I have been always told there is a sleep time requirement, but cant ever sem to find an official USAF/NHQCAP pub.....
again your assistance is always appreciated
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on June 27, 2011, 02:37:52 AM
Ok so I have searched the site as well as looked thur 52-16 (present, 2006 and 2003 versions) and have not found anything....so again I turn to the reg masters of CAPTALK
I was asked about requirements for sleep times and meal times (I gues the whole medical guy, health and welfare stuff...whatever)
a-Is there a requirement for minimum hours of sleep per night? I found a staff requirement of 6.5; but that was in the NYWG encampment book...looking for a National standard/reference; if it exists.
b-Length of meal times. Same manual, just says basically dont mess with them when they are eating.....same search need.
I have been always told there is a sleep time requirement, but cant ever sem to find an official USAF/NHQCAP pub.....
again your assistance is always appreciated
mk
I wish there was a reg for sleep time. I just returned from our encampment where if I got 5 hours it was sleeping in. The cadets were averaging about 6.
IIRC, there is no hard and fast requirement for sleep, although I do seem to recall a "7-8 hrs" desire when I was a training officer.
Some states might have "camp rules" that apply.
As for "time to eat," well, having been a Training Officer at encampment, I can tell you I generally schedule a 60 minute block for the meal, but things being what they are (delays, cadets moving at the speed of cold molasses, chow hall issues) its probably no surprise that cadets get less than 30 minutes to eat sometimes.
But I recall no specific requirement for meal length.
A meal, in silence can be eaten in 10 minutes - easy.
C/Exec staff - last to sit, first to stand.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 27, 2011, 03:26:19 AM
A meal, in silence can be eaten in 10 minutes - easy.
C/Exec staff - last to sit, first to stand.
And what exact training objective is accomplished by silence?
Quote from: cap235629 on June 27, 2011, 03:47:42 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 27, 2011, 03:26:19 AM
A meal, in silence can be eaten in 10 minutes - easy.
C/Exec staff - last to sit, first to stand.
And what exact training objective is accomplished by silence?
If they are talking instead of eating, it will take more time to finish their meal and less time on anything else including training.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 27, 2011, 03:47:42 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 27, 2011, 03:26:19 AM
A meal, in silence can be eaten in 10 minutes - easy.
C/Exec staff - last to sit, first to stand.
And what exact training objective is accomplished by silence?
More food consumption, less exhaled air.
What training objective is accomplished during meals anyway?
Quote from: sarmed1 on June 27, 2011, 02:37:52 AM
a-Is there a requirement for minimum hours of sleep per night?
I'm just wondering if the old CAPR 52-11 might have had something referring to that very question. Yeah, I know - it's an old obsolete reg - but it was just a thought.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 27, 2011, 03:55:44 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on June 27, 2011, 03:47:42 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on June 27, 2011, 03:26:19 AM
A meal, in silence can be eaten in 10 minutes - easy.
C/Exec staff - last to sit, first to stand.
And what exact training objective is accomplished by silence?
More food consumption, less exhaled air.
What training objective is accomplished during meals anyway?
My point is that many of the things that happen at encampment serve no purpose other than to harass the cadets in some effort to make things cool. Everything we do should have a purpose.
I wasn't saying they should ONLY get 10 minutes. I'm stating that as executive staff, with little to no conversation we would be the last to sit down and the first up. Easily done with (good portions) of Navy food within that much time.
Like Nin, I've got many years of experience as an encampment training officer, including a couple of the same years he did it.
Unless your state has a hard and fast "Camp law", there is no regulatory guidance from NHQ about how much sleep they need. In fact, the parental release on the the CAPF 31 acknowledges that their cadet may experience hardships like reduced sleep (Training days from 0345-0000!), or reduced food intake (they don't need lunch or breakfast, we'll just feed them dinner and save our food budget!).
Once again, just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. Realistically, I always scheduled eight hours of rack time for the first-timers/basics, and seven for staff. Only because there really isn't a reason (hard-kewl doesn't count) to do anything less. If that got interrupted by something like firewatch/area guard/CQ runner-a one hour shift, it wasn't that great of a loss. The troops were better rested, which kept them performing, morale was higher, and we didn't seem to have the "Monday melt-down" or mid-week drama day.
AFAIK, big blue schedules eight hours for trainees at Lackland. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for CAP. I know that's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but it's all we got to work with.
As Nin said, we still schedule meals as a one-hour block. Realistically, we could probably trim that down to 30-45 minutes, but why bother? We're already paying for the contract kitchen staff to be there, why give them 15-30 more minutes to screw around on the clock? Plus, it's easier to get everyone through the line in an hour. It really helps if you tell your non-essential seniors to wait until the second half of the meal period to go to the DFAC. By then, all-if not most-of the cadets are through, so there isn't much of a wait. We discourage seniors from jumping the line, unless they have a legitimate reason. The encampment commander needs to burn through and eat real quick to get to a meeting with the base commander, legitimate. The O-flight pilots need to chow down and get back to the flight line for the afternoon stream, legit. The deputy assistant public affairs officer for internal imaging, who just wants to jump in because he can? Uh, sorry, Charlie. All those troops belong to me, and if the commandant of cadets can wait to eat, so can you.
Silence at meals is needed sometimes. Not for the hard-kewl factor, but to get everyone in and out in a timely fashion. The old DFAC at our base only seated 180 people. We were there sometimes with 300, plus there may have been a guard unit using it as well, so we only got one side of it. With 90 seats, an hour timeframe, and 300 people, we had to burn them through as quickly as we could. "Eat it now, taste it later" was crucial back then. The new DFAC seats upwards of 300, and they spread the mealtimes out enough so that we don't always have two groups using it at the same time. So, we can make meals a little more relaxed than we used to. They can talk quietly, while they eat. When an entire flight is done eating (realistically, no more than about 15-20 minutes), they leave and make room for someone else.
The CAP Knowledgebase has a couple of entries addressing sleep and sleep deprivation at activities along with a couple of references.
The encampments I have commanded required a min of 8 hrs for basic cadets and a min of 6 hrs for staff. We have not allowed talking during meals in order to move people along. Feeding 300+ people in a facility that will only seat approx. 100 people requires that people move along. Cadets weren't rushed to eat and had approx 20 mins for each meal. Basic cadets also received 30 min of personal time each night.
You might want to check out the NYWG and CAWG Encampment Training Manuals.
In encampments I commanded (8) meal time was considered as cadets free time. They were allowed to talk quietly, ask Flight Commanders or Sgts. questions, and were still able to eat and get out of the Mess facility in 15 minutes. This was followed by 30 mintes free time in the barracks. Actually not free in that they had to prepare for the barracks inspections later that afternoon. Back then encampments were a full seven days to two weeks, so there was not the stress of trying to get the required 40 hours of training as seen now with often 5 or 6 day encampments.
Trying to make an encampment a mini-boot camp is not productive. One of the aims was to correct errors in training taught by local squadrons including uniforms. But one advantage was all basic cadets removed their earned rank so no matter if a basic cadet was a C/CMSgt or C/airman all basic cadets were treated equally. None of this could be done today according to 52-16. Cadet and Senior staff learned that regardless of earned grade, all cadets learned things that they found to be wrong in their home units and this provided a more consistant training Wing wide.
All cadets today get treated equally too. C/Amn-C/CMSgt at their first encampment get treated like it's their first encampment.
Though given the fact that there ARE certain Chiefs going to their first encampment at times, perhaps it should be required before promotion to C/MSgt? That gives the cadet a year to make it out to an encampment, and less time doing the "local thing".
The last two years at ILWG SE, I have been the scheduler. Basics hit the rack at 2100 and get up at 0500. Flight staff have a 2130 rack time, squadron staff are 2200, and exec staff are 2230. Staff first call is 0430. TACs are usually up at 0430 to be in their flight areas at 0500. The rest of the senior staff get up as needed unless they are on morning KP and report to the kitchen at 0500.
Meals are scheduled for 1 hour and the cadet staff don't allow talking but that is just to keep things moving and clear the chow hall in a reasonable amount of time. It's not a real stressor for the cadets.
These times have been pretty standard for years. The one thing we have done in the last ten years is have a definite staff bed time. Before some of the staff were only getting 2-3 hours a night. One year the c/CC was basically a zombie after the 5th day of encampment.
We do basically the same thing for ILWG Spring, though meals are about 30 minutes and lights out for all is generally around 2200-2230. Staff reveille is 30 minutes before everyone else, usually about 0530-0630 depending on the day's events.
Ditto on llittle to no talking at meals, we're in with the recruit divisions and have to maintain decorum for them.
Ditto also on zombie cadets - before my tenure staff bedtimes were pretty free-form as much of the encampment was being
"baked" in real-time. It was not uncommon to have cadets up past midnight or 0100+ doing planning and schedule work.
We have made it clear for years that barring unforseen circumstances, the encampment needs to be "done" walking in the door.
One of the reasons cadets seem so tired at encampments is that I think we reverse their schedule. Most of them are used to going to bed at 0500 and waking up at 2100. I would put a smiley face emoticon here but I don't think I'm joking. :o