If a cadet comes in with an ill-looking uniform, is it hazing to take their insignia and give them back at the end of the night?
Hazing? Maybe.
Bad idea? Yes.
Under what authority do you or anyone else have to take the property of someone else? If the commander chooses to demote
the cadet for improper insignia wear, so be it, but unless the insignia is squadron-issued, then even he has no right
to actually take it.
The proper response is to discreetly show the cadet how to fix his issues.
Thank you for the quick response. A fellow cadet and close friend asked me and I said the same thing...
I don't think it meets the criteria for hazing based solely on what you said. However if that is the best someone has in their leadership toolbox they need to get some help. Taking someones personal property is a recipe for disaster.
Just to get this straight...
Their uniform looks bad,
so you take away their rank insignia... and now they aren't wearing their earned grade, which is ANOTHER error on their uniform.
So what the leader has done in this situation is taken someone in a bad uniform and punished them by making their uniform worse.
How does that make sense?
What is the intent of the person removing the insignia? Are they trying to embarrass or intimidate the cadet? If so, then yes this is hazing.
Quote from: CAPR 52-165-2. g. ... Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP activity. ...
I don't think we have enough information here to accurately answer the OP's question. A lot depends upon the intent of whoever takes the insignia, and the reaction of the cadet- neither of which we have any information on.
That being said, I do think that taking a cadet's insignia is a bad idea. Tell the cadet his/her uniform is "Ill-looking" (discreetly, so as to not embarrass the cadet. THAT would be hazing). Help the cadet to fix his/her uniform, if possible to do so at that activity. Then move on...
P.S. Is it the insignia specifically that are "Ill-looking" on the uniform?
Cadets are always supposed to be wearing their grade when in uniform. Whether or not it's hazing is not fundamentally related to whether removing grade without taking a formal demotion action is acceptable, which it is not. I don't really care so much about who's property the insignia is, even though that is also a valid argument.
The much more important point is how to help them to have a better uniform in the future and understand the circumstances of the situation. You want to manage finding a solution for the future.
^+1
Cadets need to have insignia on the uniform - the grade they have earned.
Cadets need to be instructed on proper wear, not get "punished" in this fashion.
Cadets are effectively singled out by this action, therefore it CAN be viewed as hazing.
You heard my thoughts on this over FB but heres the recap:
- I'd consider that a
field demotion and only a commander can do that - I find that to be a little excessive.
Although here with the last week I had my DCC do something similar to me. I said something stupid and he took my rank and launched it across a hallway.
Yea.. I resurrected this topic.
Quote from: Daniel L on July 03, 2011, 05:28:35 AM
- I'd consider that a field demotion and only a commander can do that
Actually, per CAPR52-16 Para 5-2g field promotions and demotions are prohibited.
I messed that up I meant just a regular demotion, non-field.
I sure am glad there's no launching anything across hallways at our unit .. except the fruits of aerospace activities.
52-16.. is built on roughly 60 years of experience, read it well, for it can serve you well. :)
Quote from: Daniel L on July 03, 2011, 05:28:35 AM
Although here with the last week I had my DCC do something similar to me. I said something stupid and he took my rank and launched it across a hallway.
I would say that it time for your
DCC CDC to switch to decaf and have a conversation with the next echelon. Characterized as you are describing it, his behavior is unacceptable.
Whether or not it is hazing is irrelevant.
I encourage all cadets to read 52-16. Taking the grade off does not make the uniform look any better. People need to follow the regs and instruction. If this was CAP wide than a lot o people would not be wearing grade. Talk to the individual and document it. Some people need tips and solutions because they dont have them because they are still learning.
Just my 2 pennies .
Quote from: eaker.cadet on July 03, 2011, 04:55:01 PM
I encourage all cadets to read 52-16. Taking the grade off does not make the uniform look any better. People need to follow the regs and instruction. If this was CAP wide than a lot o people would not be wearing grade. Talk to the individual and document it. Some people need tips and solutions because they dont have them because they are still learning.
Just my 2 pennies .
Good pennies, dude.
Thanks for the feedback guys, I talked some sense into the cadet that asked told me about this. I won't disclose anything else because it would be unnecessary.
Thank you all, again.
FYI
http://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/index.cfm/cadet_protection_implementation_guide?show=entry&blogID=389
Couldn't the commander switch the rank with the CAP insignia?
If the cadet is supposed to lead a flight, let someone new have a turn.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on August 29, 2011, 12:26:23 AM
Couldn't the commander switch the rank with the CAP insignia?
If the cadet is supposed to lead a flight, let someone new have a turn.
Huh?
The reg says that you wear your earned grade. Period.
If someone needs to get out in front of a flight for a little leadership training/practice, then put them out there to strut their stuff.
Exactly. Not even at encampment can you take away earned grade insignia.
At my encampment, I was a C/CMSgt. Still knew that I was a basic in authority.
I think what Extremeprejudice is thinking of is JROTC. Civil Air Patrol works much differently.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 29, 2011, 02:37:44 PM
Exactly. Not even at encampment can you take away earned grade insignia.
At my Encampment, we basics were made to take our grade insignia off. It was done to further the idea of equality among basic cadets. After all, all basics were addressed as "cadet", not "chief," "airman," etc.
Quote from: titanII on August 30, 2011, 12:06:33 AM
At my Encampment, we basics were made to take our grade insignia off. It was done to further the idea of equality among basic cadets. After all, all basics were addressed as "cadet", not "chief," "airman," etc.
Which is wrong, and strictly forbidden in the regulations.
Ron.....Look at Tiotan II's grade. He's talking about the Old cadet program, not the current 52-16. Back then it was legal and logical for cadet basics at an encampment to remove grade. Onjly cadet staff wore grade insignia. That way all cadet basics were equal regardless if earned grade was C/CMSgt or C/airman. Cadets putr their esrned grade back on for the final banquet/dinner or pass-in-review.
Got it. I didn't read past "Cadet" in the signature. It was a transition from discretionary grade at encampment to wearing your grade in Ohio wing between my first and second encampments in '93 and '94.
Keep reading the signature. He is Cadet Donovan. He is a member of Lt Col Frank Pocher Minute Man Squadron. He was in Foxtrot Flight at the MAWG Basic Encampment 2011.
So as Ron pointed out, in 2011, that is a violation of current regulations.
Indeed. I'm a bit distracted today. My business has a really big deal on Living Social and we've sold about 250 so far. My business partner and I are both rather obsessed with watching the number.
Quote from: titanII on August 30, 2011, 12:06:33 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on August 29, 2011, 02:37:44 PM
Exactly. Not even at encampment can you take away earned grade insignia.
At my Encampment, we basics were made to take our grade insignia off. It was done to further the idea of equality among basic cadets. After all, all basics were addressed as "cadet", not "chief," "airman," etc.
Alright, I happen to know titanII is not from the "old cadet program" and is indeed a cadet from a 2011 encampment.
Now, for titanII's personal use, a direct quote from 52-16-
CAPR 52-16, Pg 18
Section 5-2, g. There are no temporary promotions or demotions,
including temporary or “field” promotions or demotions at encampments and other activities. There
are no discretionary grades.
Cadets will wear their earned grade on their uniform at every CAP
activityEmphasis mine.