I'm not sure about other wings but at MAWG encampment each flight always has a different response when the Flt/CC or Flt/Sgt say: (flight name) hydrate!
2007 Bravo: Permission to pop the top?!
2010 192 CTS: Like a boss!
Flt Sgt: "Hydrate!"
Flight: "H 2 Oh Yeah, Sergeant!"
*this wasn't at a MAWG Encampment, despite my unit
2007 CTSS: Tonight we dine in hell! (from 300)
At my basic encampment in 2009 Alpha Flight's was
Flt Sgt: Hydrate
Flight: Water, Water good for me. Water, Water makes me......
The flight that I was a TAC for at TXWG winter encampment used it too.
India Flight, Hydrate!
WATER MAKES THE BLOOD FLOW, BLOOD MAKES THE GRASS GROW, HOORAH!
I miss being a doolie sometimes...
I really don't care what the cadets say when they drink water. I just don't really want to see one of those cadets that seems to have the mouthpiece of their camelbak surgically attached to their lips. We seem to have one every year at encampment. If you take a drink every now and then, it hydrating. If you constantly walk around sucking on the thing, I think you might be missing your "binky". ;D
NJWG BE 2010 Echo Flight:
Flt Sgt: Echo Flight DIVE, DIVE, DIVE!
Flt: (Submarine diving klaxon) OOOGA, OOOGA, OOOGA! (We did this while going down and squatting and holding our noses)
Flt Sgt: HYDRATE!
Flt: Ahhhhh
Pretty, uh, different. Haha
I always thought this was sufficient:
FC/FS: HYDRATE.
FLIGHT: *sticks the Camelbak hose into their mouth*
End of chant...
I just tell the Flight Staff of the Flight that I am the Tac for that it will be doom on them if any of the cadets in their care has a problem because they're dehydrated.
Haven't had a problem yet. (knock on wood)
Quote from: ol'fido on June 12, 2011, 07:15:07 PM
I really don't care what the cadets say when they drink water. I just don't really want to see one of those cadets that seems to have the mouthpiece of their camelbak surgically attached to their lips.
That's easy to solve, don't allow them. Solves all kinds of problems, the constant nursing is but one of them. It also eliminates:
- "Mom, I need a new camel back for encampment." "What's wrong with the red and black one we just bought you for Christmas?" "The regulations say it has to be black, brown or camoflage." "Great.....another $50 bucks down the drain."
- "Cadet, that camel back doesn't comply with 39-1." "But....but...Siiiir ([/whine]), the 39-1 says woodland camoflage is allowed." "Cadet, I really don't think the spirit or intent of that line is to allow MARPAT woodland." Could also be used for cadets bringing desert camo.
- Bunches of cadets walking around with a VW beetle on their backs.
And, my personal favorite:
- "I'm sorry sir, I don't own a pistol belt and canteen, all I have is my camel back." "No problem, Cadet. Step right over there and our logistics officer will be happy to issue you a canteen, cover and pistol belt to use for the week."
In the twenty some-odd encampments I've attended including six I commanded, I do NOT recall any case of a cadet having problems resulting from hydration. Of those encampments, only two required camelbacks. All the others either required one canteen and web belt or no canteen. Cadets were encouraged to drink water at every meal, and given the opportunity for water during the mid-morning or mid-afternoon breaks.
At the last encampment I was at (as a TV journalist) about every five minutes the cadet Flight Sgt yelled "Hydrate" while the cadets were in line entering the mess hall. It appears CAP has taken hydration to an extreme.
Last years Georgia Wing Encampment had 80 cadets fall out due to dehydration according to the medic at the encampment. Of course they also wore their BDU sleeves down all the time because they were on an Army post and that is what the Army Reg's called for.. Death of all common sense as we know it.. outstanding..
Quote from: capchiro on June 13, 2011, 05:35:57 PM
Last years Georgia Wing Encampment had 80 cadets fall out due to dehydration according to the medic at the encampment. Of course they also wore their BDU sleeves down all the time because they were on an Army post and that is what the Army Reg's called for.. Death of all common sense as we know it.. outstanding..
How do Army regs affect CAP activities?
I don't agree that the sleeve issue is really a factor, especially with numbers like those, but host facilities do not dictate our uniforms.
Seems like the Encampment Commander decided the Post governed since we were a guest on the Post. When the medic argued with him he said that was the way it would be because the Army insisted on it. Probably didn't want any of our 12 year olds in BDU's to be mistaken for his macho rangers in ACU's would be my guess??
Encampment commanders do a lot of things for various reasons, sometimes the pressure and stress get to them and they crack open
like the soft-boiled eggs that they are.
So what did the seniors who don't own BDU's do? Sleeves down on their short sleeved golf shirt?
What were all the civilians on base doing?
Sleeves-down isn't going to distinguish anyone from anybody.
Either way, sleeves DOWN is actually a better option than sleeves up.
If 80 cadets (out of how many? 100? 200?) dropped from dehydration, it means that they didn't get enough water, not that they sweated too much.
Well, let's see. Dehydration is caused by a lack of water. In hot temperatures, sleeves down will cause some to sweat. Sweating makes you lose water. Losing water makes you dehydrated. Not drinking enough water is another cause for dehydration- not the only one.
Quote from: titanII on June 13, 2011, 10:02:35 PM
Well, let's see. Dehydration is caused by a lack of water. In hot temperatures, sleeves down will cause some to sweat. Sweating makes you lose water. Losing water makes you dehydrated. Not drinking enough water is another cause for dehydration- not the only one.
Sleeves down gives MORE circulation, not less.
I burn easily, so I almost never have my sleeves up. I have never had hydration issues because of it, and I don't notice any differences in sweating between wearing long and short sleeve shirts. I live in SoCal, and it gets a bit warm here. A couple of summers ago, it was 113 here at the house. Stayed inside all day.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 link=topic=13153.msg238421#msg238421
Sleeves down gives MORE circulation, not less.
/quote]
circulation of what? I'm not saying that sleeves down is bad, I'm just saying that you'd probably have to compensate by drinking more water to replenish the water lost by the increased sweating.
Quote from: titanII on June 13, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 link=topic=13153.msg238421#msg238421
Sleeves down gives MORE circulation, not less.
/quote]
circulation of what? I'm not saying that sleeves down is bad, I'm just saying that you'd probably have to compensate by drinking more water to replenish the water lost by the increased sweating.
HUH???
whatever. don't worry about it. you win.
Sleeves down only keeps you cooler in dry areas. This is because the sweat is "reused" or probably better stated, "trapped" in the outer garment, and the skin is not exposed directly to the sun. The sleeve cuffs also have to be in the full open position to allow adequate ventilation. Light colors (like the ACU's) help most with this effect as well, since they don't trap near as much heat as darker colors.
For the most part the benefit is personal preference and people will argue forever over the subject. Best to do what your commander says (assuming they are keeping safety in consideration), so everyone is uniform. Safety can say what they want, but in the end it is the commander's call and responsibility.
Otherwise sleeves up/down, was not going to curb whatever else they were doing wrong to allow 80 heat cases to happen.
ME: DRINK WATER
THEM: YES SIR!
Quote from: tsrup on June 15, 2011, 06:04:47 AM
Sleeves down only keeps you cooler in dry areas. This is because the sweat is "reused" or probably better stated, "trapped" in the outer garment, and the skin is not exposed directly to the sun. The sleeve cuffs also have to be in the full open position to allow adequate ventilation. Light colors (like the ACU's) help most with this effect as well, since they don't trap near as much heat as darker colors.
For the most part the benefit is personal preference and people will argue forever over the subject. Best to do what your commander says (assuming they are keeping safety in consideration), so everyone is uniform. Safety can say what they want, but in the end it is the commander's call and responsibility.
Otherwise sleeves up/down, was not going to curb whatever else they were doing wrong to allow 80 heat cases to happen.
When I was at OSUT at Ft. Benning, we were training in an area known as Bear's Den. About 1400, they got the word that the heat index had hit 105 so no more training that day. They had us take off our BDU tops and T-shirts. Put the BDU top back on and roll the sleeves about half way up the forearm. BDU pants were unbloused and rolled up to the top of the boots. Then we fell in and went back to the "starship". I don't know about rolling the pants or the top, but taking the T-shirt off felt like someone had turned on the AC. 8)
When we talk about hydration and overheating, we're really talking about core body temperature, not necessarily how you feel temperature wise. I'm not convinced that wearing a BDU blouse vs. not has a significant impact on your core body temperature when properly hydrating. Frankly, I prefer to leave mine on with sleeves down and hydrating because then I avoid sunburn as well.
I didn't say take it off. Read it again.
Quote from: ol'fido on June 16, 2011, 01:59:18 AM
I didn't say take it off. Read it again.
I wasn't really referring to your post specifically, just in general. It's something you hear a lot about when you start talking about heat and hydration.
The wisdom of the current military/medical minds that sleeves rolled down is better in the sun/heat than up or off reminds me of their ultimate wisdom to take a handful of salt tables every time you went outside at Ft. Polk in the summer in 1967. Gee, I wonder why I have high blood pressure now and an unquenchable desire for salt??
CAP's safety Nazis' er, I mean enthusiasts, may not realize that water is poisonous. Hyper-hydration can cause an electrolyte imbalance which causes brain cells to absorb fluid by osmosis and expand, which is a heck of a lot harder to diagnose and treat in the field ( sudden death and an empty Camelback are a positive sign) This results in increased intracranial pressure, with a host of nastiness occurring there. Its not a good idea to force water on someone generally. Salt tablets likewise must be used with great care, and are considered outdated and dangerous. They will also make you ralph like Linda Blair in the Exorcist if taken on an empty ( or water-filled) tummy.
If you are really concerned that an individual is severely dehydrated, test for "postural tachycardia". Have the victim lie down for a few minutes, while feeling their pulse, have them sit up ( with assistance if necessary) If the pulse rate skyrockets, and/or or they faint or vomit, you may not get much result from just having them drink water, since their electrolyte debt will make them give the water right back, usually on your shirt or shoes.
I have seen several cases of Cadets going into electrolyte debt severe enough to require IV fluid replenishment. These little badgers we take care of have a higher surface area to volume ratio than most adults do, and give up fluid faster in the same environments, but you need to be careful not to drown them.
Major Lord
Look up hyponatremia on WebMD, and Wikipedia. Both have excellent articles.
Well, I hope our Cadets problems are limited to Hypovolemic Hyponatremia, I would hate to think that we have a lot of Cadets running around Encampments with Congestive Heart Failure or some of the the nastier causes.....( Those diseases are reserved for Seniors, and if they die, we just go through their pockets and split up their gear)
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on June 17, 2011, 12:43:32 AM
( Those diseases are reserved for Seniors, and if they die, we just go through their pockets and split up their gear)
Crap, have I been doing it wrong this whole time?On topic- It's really,
really hard to over-hydrate if you're doing enough physical activity and going to the bathroom regularly enough. You have to force yourself to the point of puking back up water before you begin with water intoxication. It's just not feasible in an encampment setting.
I disagree. If you are drinking, and peeing, and drinking and peeing, to an excess, you will flush all those nice electrolytes right out of the body.
hypo - shortage; natros - salt
It's sneaky. That was partly a reason for the salt tablets, way back when.
Quote from: SarDragon on June 17, 2011, 03:19:21 AM
I disagree. If you are drinking, and peeing, and drinking and peeing, to an excess, you will flush all those nice electrolytes right out of the body.
hypo - shortage; natros - salt
It's sneaky. That was partly a reason for the salt tablets, way back when.
I understand the electrolyte situation when hydrating, but I was just saying that it's less likely to die from water intoxication than from electrolyte shortage.
Quote from: HGjunkie on June 17, 2011, 03:12:04 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on June 17, 2011, 12:43:32 AM
( Those diseases are reserved for Seniors, and if they die, we just go through their pockets and split up their gear)
Crap, have I been doing it wrong this whole time?
On topic- It's really, really hard to over-hydrate if you're doing enough physical activity and going to the bathroom regularly enough. You have to force yourself to the point of puking back up water before you begin with water intoxication. It's just not feasible in an encampment setting.
This is wrong wrong wrong wrong.
wrong.
With the varying backgrounds of all the different cadets that show up at encampment, this is a very likely scenario.
Salt is lost with sweat. Cadets who exert themselves sweat. If that salt isn't replaced then they can end up hyponatremic. Add in a preexisting condition then that can either exacerbate the condition, or make it more likely to happen.
Eat salt with your meals, and do what we do at encampment, we serve with each meal (IIRC) a half-half mix of gatorade (or equivalent sports beverage powder of choice).
The body depends on balance, and too much of even a good thing is bad. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "too much".
Quote from: HGjunkie on June 17, 2011, 03:22:38 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on June 17, 2011, 03:19:21 AM
I disagree. If you are drinking, and peeing, and drinking and peeing, to an excess, you will flush all those nice electrolytes right out of the body.
hypo - shortage; natros - salt
It's sneaky. That was partly a reason for the salt tablets, way back when.
I understand the electrolyte situation when hydrating, but I was just saying that it's less likely to die from water intoxication than from electrolyte shortage.
What do you think water intoxication is?
Hopefully, we won't see many deaths from hypo or hyper-hydration in a closely monitored situation, like an encampment. My point ( besides looting the cool gear from dead Senior Members, the majority of whom we know to be in heavens waiting room anyway) is that it is entirely possible to force the "culture of hydration" on Cadets and Seniors with unforeseen consequences, and that SM's should be aware of mentation and physical changes in the cadets under their charge ( And since encampment is a type of brainwashing, its hard to establish a good baseline) Another interesting thing we think about frequently is how these concerns apply in very warm conditions, but hydration issues are not limited to high temperature extremes. The South Pole is colder then a well diggers hindquarters in the Klondike, but its about the driest place in the world. The air there could suck the fluids out of your body faster than a Congressman can kill his career on Twitter!
FYI, oral rehydration packets are cheap (and you can make your own with kitchen ingredients) and generally more effective at water and electrolyte replacement than watered down Gatorade ( which is not a bad choice if its what you have) When your body is out of juice, an IV infusion of saline solution feels like kisses from Sandra Bullock, so for those of you with the training, its not a bad thing to have a kit good to go....just in case. In my go bag, I also keep a vial of B-12 (go juice for athletes) I have not had to start a line on a human since Hurricane Katrina, and its doubtful I will ever do so again. With any luck.......
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on June 17, 2011, 04:15:58 AM
...
My point ( besides looting the cool gear from dead Senior Members, the majority of whom we know to be in heavens waiting room anyway)
...
(http://www.sicksack.com/images/medal.gif)
Quote from: JerseyCadet on June 13, 2011, 01:28:01 AM
NJWG BE 2010 Echo Flight:
Flt Sgt: Echo Flight DIVE, DIVE, DIVE!
Flt: (Submarine diving klaxon) OOOGA, OOOGA, OOOGA! (We did this while going down and squatting and holding our noses)
Flt Sgt: HYDRATE!
Flt: Ahhhhh
Pretty, uh, different. Haha
Lovely!! ;D
How is it that every time we talk about hydration we jump off the proverbial turnip truck and talk about how water kills you? If someone is burning through two Camelbaks an hour that's a problem, but it's far less prevalent than dehydration.
In all honesty I don't think hydration chants are necessary, but in my opinion that shouldn't stop anyone from doing it. They're fun, help develop a sense of esprit de corps, and it ensures cadets don't wait until they've lost a significant amount of water and get thirsty to start drinking.
Over last summer I begun so much water that my mom was worried I would over hydrate, so I decided to cut back on my water intake; it didn't do me any good and I actually felt worse for it. The thing is that if it's not all at once, and you're eating regular meals/ drinking any kind of sports drink, your body will have time to replenish electrolytes. In grade school I had a friend who drank so much water than he actually ended up regurgitating some. While this probably wasn't a good idea he survived to tell the tale and is now a happy healthy member of my squadron.
I see two factors at play.
1) Cadets underestimating the importance of water to the function of life. They often get caught up in the excitement of encampment, or they're afraid of drinking at certain times. They often wait until they're thirsty to drink (sign of dehydration), fail to tell people they're out of water, or think that they can make it to the next meal where there's "flavored water" available.
2) Staff overestimating the necessity of water. In response to factor 1 above, the staff "makes" the cadets drink 10X more water than they need, so they don't have to fill out safety forms. So, encampment policies result in hydration checks like this.
I've had cadets complain to me that they couldn't possibly drink any more water. One encampment I went to required that cadets drink a specified number of canteens per day. However, policies like that fail to realize that individual body composition requires differing amounts of water.
I can usually point out the cadets that are going to have trouble with doing things like drinking water pretty early in the week.
Speaking from experience, a good general baseline for drinking water at encampments/ES work is about one canteen every 1-2 hours, with a sports drink mix being served at lunch. Commanders can then judge if its too much(very rarely), too little (which happens sometimes), or just right ( which happens >80% of the time).
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/hydrationandfluid/qt/How-Much-Water-Should-You-Drink.htm
Obviously you can't have them all weigh before and after PT or marching, but the minimum is 1 canteen an hour according to what athletes should be drinking. (Canteen = 1 quart)