OK, So CAP rolls up to a disaster in a small community. We have been requested by the County Emergency Mgt folks. They are tasking us to fly quite a few photo missions in the aftermath or a large scale tornado.
They would also like real time comms between the aircraft and their Fire Chief, So he can coordinate the response into the area to determine if there are any pockets in outlaying areas, were survivors would need help. Normally how would CAP make this happen?
Now the Fire Chief has requested that our aircraft coordinate directly with the SAR assets on the ground. What would you do?
In my state (Delaware), this wouldn't be an issue. We have state-owned 800 MHz radios with mutual-aid talkgroups programmed along with several DelDOT groups. We use these radios when we fly missions for Delaware DOT. They even provided a CAP talkgroup for our use.
Quote from: EmergencyManager6 on June 10, 2011, 11:40:08 PMNow the Fire Chief has requested that our aircraft coordinate directly with the SAR assets on the ground. What would you do?
We would have a Liason officer with the ground assets who would have a CAP portable radio. Our aircraft are not set up to talk to them directly so that's just not going to happen. The crew is not authorised to coordinate with them directly anyway.
Even if we could, we would have to go off the CAP radio frequency to do it, and we can't when a mission is in progress.
hand the scanner a portable radio from the fire department and drive on
There's a reason we have IR1 - IR9 programmed in the radios. THese are interoperability channels.
Quote from: arajca on June 11, 2011, 01:15:01 AM
There's a reason we have IR1 - IR9 programmed in the radios. THese are interoperability channels.
and not in all CAP radios
Turn to State Wide Fire Band and launch...
Depends upon your agreement with that specific agency. In the past our wing has had the State Emergency Management channels programmed into both the base/mobile radios & aircraft radios. I think when Maine & New Hampshire wings when performing forest fire patrols they have access to the forestry radio system to directly communicate with responding control centers and also responding units.
In an emergency it is likely that the agency you are supporting will make some sort of arrangement to provide radio access to their system likely with one of their radios lent to you. Sometimes unless you have a specific type of radio, the agency does not want you on their channels, because of certain signalling requirements (e.g. the dispatch console operator can see the programmed unit # of the radio on a display).
There are "poor man ways" (cross band system receive only) to also communicate but unless both agencies have skilled communicators on duty with appropriate equipment it might not work. (Use to be interesting monitoring two rural counties in Michigan that had a receiver on each others transmit frequency (both were low band VHF) and would communicate that way without an issue)
Our wing is working on developing a small CAP coordination team (1 to 3 people, air ops, radio operator, etc) that would be dispatched into the community being assisted, but in most natural disasters that would be difficult, so my guess is that since every community in our state has a state provided base radio to talk with the regional emergency management facility, likely one of those channels will be utilized directly by our aircraft.
FEMA has a book on radio interoperability that is good to review and have knowledge about and may give you the knowledge to ask the right questions of officials. You have to remember that when you are dealing with public safety operations personnel they only know the channel designations to go to and don't really don't know the frequencies. So if you tell them to go to AIR 1, it's likely they will be on AIR 1 but it won't be on our AIR 1 ;)
National Headquarters has to approve the release of our frequencies to anyone out side of CAP.
RM
First choice:
Find a qualified Communications Unit Leader and assign them to coordinate. They talk turkey with the non-CAP radio folks and together they determine which channels you have in common. All the CAP folks use their radios as determined by the CUL. If there are no common channels the CUL may have to get creative. In any case, try to let the comm folks do the comm stuff, while the other incident staff folks do their jobs.
Or:
Assign CAP radio operators to liaison with the fire chief and ground SAR teams. That doesn't have to mean we send CAP folks with every ground team, but someone working relay might work (CAP radio <-----> SAR radio). However, don't setup a system that might keep the CAP IC or AOBD out of the loop.
Or:
According to CAPR 100-1 section 5-6 non-CAP members can operate CAP radios under the supervision of a qualified CAP member. In limited circumstances they can operate a CAP radio without direct supervision. The latter isn't ideal, but it can be done if no other options are available.
I've seen missions go goofy because no one called a CUL. CUL's should know things that a lot of qualified MRO's don't. Even if there is no CUL at the ICP, a phone call to a CUL can answer a lot of questions. Most CUL's I know are readily available via phone, cell phone. email, Skype, etc.
I needed to speak to the USCG on a mission, and went on Marine 16 calling " U.S. Cast Guard San Francisco, this is United States Air Force Auxiliary SAR team, Call sign Yosemite 222" They were a little confused at first, ( they are kind of squidly) buy they caught on fast that I was not a civilian boat calling for help, but another federal agency requesting assistance. I thought that throwing in "Civil Air Patrol" would have been just too many words; They know who USAF is, and they know what "Aux" means, so we were ahead of the game. the only glitch was that my radio did not having any Marine channels other than 16, we had to do our business and the call frequency. It would be a good idea to make sure our radios have the Coast Guard and CG AUX ( As I recall,its channel 22A) which my ancient Yaesu did not have in its little brain.
One of my friends called a police dispatcher from a police car and used his ham radio call sign to report the injury accident. It was just force of habit, but he did not let protocol stand in the way of effective communications. Picking up a radio and yelling "HELP" into the microphone can be exactly the right thing to do.
Major Lord
Extra Class ham, GROL with Radar endorsement, Etc.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 11, 2011, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: arajca on June 11, 2011, 01:15:01 AM
There's a reason we have IR1 - IR9 programmed in the radios. THese are interoperability channels.
and not in all CAP radios
It should be in all the EF Johnsons. National set up a specific zone for them.
Quote from: Major Lord on June 11, 2011, 02:46:49 AM
my radio did not having any Marine channels other than 16, we had to do our business and the call frequency. It would be a good idea to make sure our radios have the Coast Guard and CG AUX ( As I recall,its channel 22A)
Channel 16 is the Distress, Safety and General Calling Frequency. It is where you would first call for help.
Channel 22A is the USCG (not Aux) Liaison Channel. The USCG will usually move a communication here after the first contact is made on CH16.
The FCC controls the non-US government maritime radio channels. For the FCC list see FCC Ship Radio Stations VHF Channel Listing (http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=service_bandplan&id=ship_stations)
The USCG Aux uses USCG and US government VHF channels that are not on that list. They can be found on USCG Navigation Center US VHF Channels (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtVhf)
The channels the Aux uses will vary by area.
The "A" after some channels is important it designates the US frequency which will vary from the international (open seas) frequency. Most modern radios can be programmed for the US or international frequency.
A Big Word of Caution. Never, ever contact the USCG or anyone else on a marine channel unless you are on a boat or it is an emergency. It is illegal for the general public to use marine radios on land or in the air for anything but emergencies.
Quote from: EmergencyManager6 on June 10, 2011, 11:40:08 PM
OK, So CAP rolls up to a disaster in a small community. We have been requested by the County Emergency Mgt folks. They are tasking us to fly quite a few photo missions in the aftermath or a large scale tornado.
They would also like real time comms between the aircraft and their Fire Chief, So he can coordinate the response into the area to determine if there are any pockets in outlaying areas, were survivors would need help. Normally how would CAP make this happen?
Now the Fire Chief has requested that our aircraft coordinate directly with the SAR assets on the ground. What would you do?
1. Long before the incident your wing director of comm and you wing director of operations have been in contact with all the local ES organisations in your state (fire, sar, LE) and have coordinated and gotten all the proper MOUs required by law and regulations.
2. At the incident your CUL developes the COMM plan. He works with the IC/LO/PSC to figure out who is communicting how. The COMM PLAN is part of each crew breifing.
3. Prior to take off the crew programs the proper freqs and other data into the spare channels (if they are not already preprogrammed in 1 above).
4. The crew flies the mission and uses the radio in the same way as they have been trained in CAP.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 11, 2011, 05:21:51 PM1. Long before the incident your wing director of comm and you wing director of operations have been in contact with all the local ES organisations in your state (fire, sar, LE) and have coordinated and gotten all the proper MOUs required by law and regulations.
That's a pretty big assumption and I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that it hasn't been done.
So what's your "Plan B"?
Quote from: PHall on June 11, 2011, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 11, 2011, 05:21:51 PM1. Long before the incident your wing director of comm and you wing director of operations have been in contact with all the local ES organisations in your state (fire, sar, LE) and have coordinated and gotten all the proper MOUs required by law and regulations.
That's a pretty big assumption and I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that it hasn't been done.
So what's your "Plan B"?
My plan "b" is to do 2-4 with out worring about the regulations.
The problem I have seen is that everyone else is in the same boat as we are as far as it comes to comm. The IT geeks don't share information. No one know what freqs they are on (it's channel 12 here on my hand held!).
In a pinch....have the supported unit just give you a hand held.....(did that when flying in the Grand Canyon working with the National Parks Service.)
The FCC has set aside some federally assigned common channels. They can be found in the "National Interoperability Field Operations Guide" (NIFOG for short).
Some states have Mutual aid channels. In montana the state labeled the channels by colors instead of the funky national name so everyone in montana knows, when you switch to yellow, exactly what everyone is doing and no one gets confused.
Your wing communications officer should have the ability to know what he/she can program in the NIFOG.
NIFOG Link:
http://www.ncdhhs.gov/dhsr/EMS/pdf/NIFOG.pdf
Quote from: arajca on June 11, 2011, 03:47:51 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on June 11, 2011, 01:15:45 AM
Quote from: arajca on June 11, 2011, 01:15:01 AM
There's a reason we have IR1 - IR9 programmed in the radios. THese are interoperability channels.
and not in all CAP radios
It should be in all the EF Johnsons. National set up a specific zone for them.
They are not in the code plug sent out by National. There is room for them but they are not part of the programming that is sent out. If your wing has them it is because your DC added them.
Interesting. As DC, they were in the code plug I got from national. Perhaps your DC took them out?
Quote from: arajca on July 04, 2011, 03:22:30 AM
Interesting. As DC, they were in the code plug I got from national. Perhaps your DC took them out?
I am the DC and if you go to the DC download page and download any of the EF Johnson codeplugs, they are not there
Can you site were CAP is authorized to use the IR freq?
IR freq's are for Federal Incident response ONLY. Im pretty sure CAP cant just use an IR freq anytime they want...
CAP uses USAF/DoD radio channels and is considered a federal agency, which is one reason we fall under the NTIA instead of the FCC.
Quote from: EmergencyManager6 on July 04, 2011, 09:22:03 PM
Can you site were CAP is authorized to use the IR freq?
IR freq's are for Federal Incident response ONLY. Im pretty sure CAP cant just use an IR freq anytime they want...
We would not use it when "anytime they want..." only when we are trying to coordinate with other agencies.....like in a multi jurisdictional incident....which is why they have the IR freq in the first place.
right. but IR freq's are only usable on a "National" event, and when talking to a "federal agency' Were does CAP qualify as a federal agency?
Quote from: EmergencyManager6 on July 05, 2011, 01:24:40 AM
right. but IR freq's are only usable on a "National" event, and when talking to a "federal agency' Were does CAP qualify as a federal agency?
at anytime we are on an AFAM
Quote from: cap235629 on July 05, 2011, 01:40:21 AM
Quote from: EmergencyManager6 on July 05, 2011, 01:24:40 AM
right. but IR freq's are only usable on a "National" event, and when talking to a "federal agency' Were does CAP qualify as a federal agency?
at anytime we are on an AFAM
First off, if NOC approved this scenario it would most likely not be a Federal mission as you discribe it. It at most likely would be a C-14 County MOU mission or B-14 State MOU mission. If requested through the State. Not the County.
Secondly, I beleive that you could not use the IR freqs from the NIFOG as they are for federal response not local. Each state would have the local IR freqs for that. That is if the State and County TICP updated, and the state and county agencies had there radio reprogramed correctly.
In California, there is a Statewide Mutual Aid VHF-FM Channel (CALCORD) that all our corporate Portable, Mobile and aircraft radios have programmed into them. That should give us contact with just about anyone we need to talk to.
Mark
When we are called upon by state and local agencies we coordinate comm with them on one of their state frequencies. We have them programmed into our radios and talk directly with them on their freqs. Often times when doing flood sorties for them we will launch and receive objectives from them while airborne. We will overfly the objectives, take pics and describe to them what the situation is and what may be causing it. They will then dispatch crews to go mitigate the problem. We only use the state frequencies when they request us to have comm with them. CAP to CAP with no third party involved we only use the CAP freqs.
Quote from: Major Lord on June 11, 2011, 02:46:49 AMI thought that throwing in "Civil Air Patrol" would have been just too many words
I've worked with the Coasties numerous times in various areas, they knew who we are without my having to explain.
The easy way to figure it, the PROS know about CAP, the local volunteer posses may not.
My solution to the cross-commo problem is having the freqs that I am likely to need programmed into my Astro Saber, with the option of rapidly reprogramming it in the field.
If someone tells me to use their freq, I have them write that instruction in my notebook and SIGN IT. That way, if anyone has a problem with it, I can show that I was authorized (and if they didn't have that authority, that's their problem).
When I was in an area where public safety was trunked at 800 MHz, I got with their commo people and got a blanket permission and callsign assignment, then bought an 800 MHz Astro Saber (cheap on Fleabay), turning it around for what I paid a year later when I left the area.
BTW, I got into the Astro Saber because I had standardized on the Saber platform back in the 1990s. If you keep your eyes open, you can get radio and accys cheap. The programming software from Ma Batwings cost me more than the radios did (or pay $40 to have the tech bench program for you).
Quote from: Buzz on July 21, 2011, 01:25:19 AM
My solution to the cross-commo problem is having the freqs that I am likely to need programmed into my Astro Saber, with the option of rapidly reprogramming it in the field.
If someone tells me to use their freq, I have them write that instruction in my notebook and SIGN IT. That way, if anyone has a problem with it, I can show that I was authorized (and if they didn't have that authority, that's their problem).
When I was in an area where public safety was trunked at 800 MHz, I got with their commo people and got a blanket permission and callsign assignment, then bought an 800 MHz Astro Saber (cheap on Fleabay), turning it around for what I paid a year later when I left the area.
BTW, I got into the Astro Saber because I had standardized on the Saber platform back in the 1990s. If you keep your eyes open, you can get radio and accys cheap. The programming software from Ma Batwings cost me more than the radios did (or pay $40 to have the tech bench program for you).
programming a trunked personality into a radio is not as simple as just putting in a freq. they are dozens of variables. System keys, crypto keys... The system admin then has to assign you an ID on the system and enable you for specific talk groups. Not something that is going to happen in the middle of an incident. Thats why the Feds have created the interoperability channels in each band ...
Astro saber essentially has the same guts as an XTS 3000. Good radio. not too clear on going out on a whim and buying one, unless your up to speed on DSP versions, and Mototola talk you will certainly get screwed buying on on ebay.
That's why A), you get permission from the comm king (or queen), and B), with that permission, if you don't know what you are doing, you have the tech bench program for you.
As far as the various versions, this isn't as big an issue with the vast majority of trunked networks. Most of them are just basic, because the services have various generations of equipment and need to be compatible with all of them.
As far as cost, yes, I was lucky to get the Saber and Astro Saber at real deal prices, but even on Fleabay there are some good radios at good prices. The last Astro I bought cost a little over $350 (with shipping), and came with the latest firmware, a couple of batteries, charger, speaker mic and other accessories. If you're not in a hurry, you can find a deal like this. Compare the price and feature set to the EFJ.
I have the RIB and the software, plus various other accessories, so staying with the Saber platform really makes sense for me, but for someone who only wants CAP / ES / Public Safety, it only needs to be programmed once anyhow.