I am a new Senior Member and I have heard conflicting reports about this: Do flight officers outrank senior members? I was at an FTX and encountered a flight officer for the first time, and didn't know how to address him.
Thanks!
Quote from: SMLester on June 07, 2011, 06:00:29 PM
I am a new Senior Member and I have heard conflicting reports about this: Do flight officers outrank senior members? I was at an FTX and encountered a flight officer for the first time, and didn't know how to address him.
Thanks!
Personal opinion: Yes they do. They have been senior members and have been promoted.
I would concur, and then when the SM gets his butter bars, it is the other way around.
And when the FO turns 21 it could switch again.
Yep, the circle of life!
Thanks everyone!
It isn't something you will need to worry about often because you will likely rarely see one. WIWAFO, I was a spectacle because many people had never seen one. It was sort of like...people would say "what...are you?" "so that's a senior member?" or display me like "look. This is a Flight Officer. Have you ever seen one of these?"
People who had been in for decades told me that they had never seen one in real life. I overheard a conversation behind me between a National person and a PAWG person. The National person asked "what's wrong with his epaulets?" "whose?" "the guy with the lines" "nothing. He is a flight officer." "so he is like a senior member?" "yes, he is a senior member but that means it isn't yet 21"
FO are Members who are under 21, and not eligible for 2d Lt, 1st Lt or Capt.
SMWOG are typically new members who can be 18-21 or 21+, but have not received a promotion to the FO/Officer grades.
There are three FO grades: FO, TFO, SFO. Thanks to cadet achievement carry over, some cadets who opt to switch before 21, may be promoted to any one of these levels at the commander's discretion and based on the level achieved (Mitchell - FO, Earhart - TFO, Spaatz - SFO)
For simplicity, that means C/Major Soanso now becomes a TFO (Due to Cadet Programs Technical Rating). They can now work towards SFO while under 21. If they have 18 months as a SFO, then they can convert to Captain once 21. If short of 18 months, then they need to spend the remainder as a 1st Lt.
A TFO then equates to 2d Lt in terms of progression. If someone turns 21 as a TFO, then they either become a 1st Lt if they had 12 months as a TFO, or round out the 12 months as a 2d Lt (Unless they had the Earhart, in which case at 21 they are eligible for 1st Lt).
A SFO equates to 1st Lt, and follow the same procedure but with 18 months to Capt.
What that really means is that a <6 month SM is below any FO, but >6 month with a 2d Lt+ Grade is now above them. Once the TFO/SFO gets promoted to 1st Lt/Capt, they are once again ahead of the 2d Lt.
Confusing? It is. Majorly.
Simple rule: SM? Then Salute anyone with any sort of bars, leafs, eagles, or stars.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11235.msg204997#msg204997 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11235.msg204997#msg204997) <<< Topic on just how confusing FO progression is. (With no real carry over to the Officer side on a "one to one" basis).
Bet there are more Flight officers than Senior member NCO's. ;) ;D
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on June 07, 2011, 07:01:48 PM
Bet there are more Flight officers than Senior member NCO's. ;) ;D
Probably not by much.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on June 07, 2011, 07:01:48 PM
Bet there are more Flight officers than Senior member NCO's. ;) ;D
Not sure on that. Flight Officers have an expiration date (21st b-day) so they don't accumulate like NCOs
On this note - if you're an SFO when you turn 21, you go 1st Lt. unless you have enough TIG for Captain. If you're going 1st Lt. (like I will) how does your commander promote you straight to 1st Lt. after turning 21? Will eServices let you go straight to 1Lt. or is it a call to national?
CAPF 2a to NHQ w/ c.c. to the Wing/Group Prof Dev, Pers, & Admin. (Squadron CC is promoting authority for 2d Lt & 1st Lt) Just put the explanation in the box: SFO Junior Donuteater has x Mos y Years TIG as SFO and has completed ABC Technician rating (or has credit for it iaw CAPR ...) and is therefore recommended for promotion to the grade of 1st Lt iaw CAPR XXX.
When I first joined in '93 (awful berry boards era), one of my first activities was a Wing comms school.
I shared the dorm with what I thought was a cadet (I was the dreaded SMWOG) and I thought...hold it, why am I sharing a dorm with a cadet?!
He then informed me he was not a cadet, he was a Flight Officer and that he outranked me.
The Flight Officer grades are a very, very rough analogy to Warrant Officers (which I wish CAP would bring back), but I can count on the fingers of one hand how many I've seen in 18 years of CAP, and I've never seen one higher than a TFO.
I think the name comes from the USAAF in WWII, how they had a special grade of warrant officer that was aircrew-only:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/FlightOfficerRank.jpg)
The UK, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and formerly Canada have a rank called Flying Officer that corresponds to our First Lieutenant.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/RAAF_O2_rank.png/75px-RAAF_O2_rank.png)
Quote from: SMLester on June 07, 2011, 06:00:29 PM
I am a new Senior Member and I have heard conflicting reports about this: Do flight officers outrank senior members? I was at an FTX and encountered a flight officer for the first time, and didn't know how to address him.
Thanks!
Please, for the love of cookies, do not address them as cadets :D I have had many officers address me as a cadet and then look at me in a weird way when I try to explain that I am not a cadet.
Quote from: JC004 on June 07, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
It isn't something you will need to worry about often because you will likely rarely see one. WIWAFO, I was a spectacle because many people had never seen one. It was sort of like...people would say "what...are you?" "so that's a senior member?" or display me like "look. This is a Flight Officer. Have you ever seen one of these?"
People who had been in for decades told me that they had never seen one in real life. I overheard a conversation behind me between a National person and a PAWG person. The National person asked "what's wrong with his epaulets?" "whose?" "the guy with the lines" "nothing. He is a flight officer." "so he is like a senior member?" "yes, he is a senior member but that means it isn't yet 21"
I get the same looks/comments in my area of the US! I like being unique :D
Quote from: Al Sayre on June 07, 2011, 07:57:07 PM
CAPF 2a to NHQ w/ c.c. to the Wing/Group Prof Dev, Pers, & Admin. (Squadron CC is promoting authority for 2d Lt & 1st Lt) Just put the explanation in the box: SFO Junior Donuteater has x Mos y Years TIG as SFO and has completed ABC Technician rating (or has credit for it iaw CAPR ...) and is therefore recommended for promotion to the grade of 1st Lt iaw CAPR XXX.
I am turning 21 in July and have heard that I have to send a CAPF 2a to NHQ but have not heard that I have CC Wing/Group Prof Dev, Pers & Admin. So, can this be sent via email then or by snail mail ?
Quote from: CyBorg on June 07, 2011, 08:29:49 PM
The Flight Officer grades are a very, very rough analogy to Warrant Officers (which I wish CAP would bring back), but I can count on the fingers of one hand how many I've seen in 18 years of CAP, and I've never seen one higher than a TFO.
I am an SFO :)
I'm a TFO and ran into an SFO at NESA last year. We're a rare breed, but we've mastered the art of the "gray area" ::) (red area for you corporatists).
Cyborg
Prior to the start of WWII the USAAC had NCO pilots as well as enlisted men who trained as pilots after one year of service. After these men graduated from flight school they were given the rank of Flight Officer which is something like a warrant officer. Many of these individuals were given commissions later in the war. That is how Chuck Yeager did it. He had enlisted prior to Pearl Harbor for one year and later went through flight school to be a pilot. He wasn't commissioned until later in the war. These are different from the Liaison Pilots that flew L-Birds for the Army. They were under the Field Artillery and not AAC,
I once got totally REAMED by a SMWOG when I was a TFO. He was a good distance from me and I was busy doing something important on a mission. He kept saying "CADET!" and I didn't think to look at him, let alone acknowledge him in any way because I was not a cadet and I was BUSY.
I sat down to get briefed by someone and he came over in a huff, screaming at me - "CADET! NEVER IGNORE ME AGAIN! I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU THINK YOU ARE!" he went on and on.
I let him have his say, then I said "first, I am not a cadet. Second, I don't know who you think YOU are addressing ANYONE, INCLUDING a cadet the way that you have, but I am also the Unit Leader here. According to the sheet here, you are my trainee, which means that you probably shouldn't be giving me any orders or screaming at me. Lastly, this is a mission and qualifications - not rank matter here." He apologized and that was the end of that. It turned out the huff was over his desire to have a minion move some brochures for him. Brochures. On a mission.
I had many various strange encounters as a flight officer...
Heck: I had many strange encounters as a Lt Col.
Quote from: JC004 on June 07, 2011, 11:57:22 PM
I once got totally REAMED by a SMWOG when I was a TFO. He was a good distance from me and I was busy doing something important on a mission. He kept saying "CADET!" and I didn't think to look at him, let alone acknowledge him in any way because I was not a cadet and I was BUSY.
Been through almost the same instance before, on more than one occasion.
Quote
I had many various strange encounters as a flight officer...
certainly was an awkward time, but wouldn't trade it for anything
Quote from: tsrup on June 08, 2011, 03:04:19 AM
Quote from: JC004 on June 07, 2011, 11:57:22 PM
I once got totally REAMED by a SMWOG when I was a TFO. He was a good distance from me and I was busy doing something important on a mission. He kept saying "CADET!" and I didn't think to look at him, let alone acknowledge him in any way because I was not a cadet and I was BUSY.
Been through almost the same instance before, on more than one occasion.
Quote
I had many various strange encounters as a flight officer...
certainly was an awkward time, but wouldn't trade it for anything
Another awkward thing was having friends who were
older than I but were
cadets, so the rules and all applied.
Once participated with some fellow senior members in smoking some cigars while the cadets were off at their social thing. Got reamed by a Lt Col for underage smoking. He knew that I was over 18, but under 21 - he thought the smoking age was 21. Everyone else laughed at him. We weren't doing ANYTHING wrong - I wasn't breaking any laws, there weren't cadets
anywhere to be found, and we were just minding our own business - only to be bothered by this guy who comes along. It seemed that being a FO was being a magnet for crap.
Quote from: Al Sayre on June 07, 2011, 07:57:07 PM
CAPF 2a to NHQ w/ c.c. to the Wing/Group Prof Dev, Pers, & Admin. (Squadron CC is promoting authority for 2d Lt & 1st Lt) Just put the explanation in the box: SFO Junior Donuteater has x Mos y Years TIG as SFO and has completed ABC Technician rating (or has credit for it iaw CAPR ...) and is therefore recommended for promotion to the grade of 1st Lt iaw CAPR XXX.
CAPF 2, not 2a. If going for 2d or 1st LT, direct to National with remarks stating that the individual has met the time and training requirements for the requested grade.
SFO to CPT have to go through Group (if you have them, if not Wing). remember that the you still have to meet all the training requirements for the requested grade including the Davis Award for Captain
Quote from: JC004 on June 08, 2011, 03:48:02 AM
It seemed that being a FO was being a magnet for crap.
Or at least misunderstanding about your status. As confessed, I was guilty of it myself. :-[
Quote from: ol'fido on June 07, 2011, 09:54:54 PM
That is how Chuck Yeager did it. He had enlisted prior to Pearl Harbor for one year and later went through flight school to be a pilot. He wasn't commissioned until later in the war.
Gene Autry, too. He flew C-47's over "The Hump" in CBI.
FO's were to be treated as "Third Lieutenants" per USAAF regs and were saluted by enlisted personnel.
This confused British and Commonwealth personnel no end...their Warrant Officers are not saluted.
Quote from: Flight Officer on June 07, 2011, 08:47:02 PM
Quote from: SMLester on June 07, 2011, 06:00:29 PM
I am a new Senior Member and I have heard conflicting reports about this: Do flight officers outrank senior members? I was at an FTX and encountered a flight officer for the first time, and didn't know how to address him.
Thanks!
Please, for the love of cookies, do not address them as cadets :D I have had many officers address me as a cadet and then look at me in a weird way when I try to explain that I am not a cadet.
Quote from: JC004 on June 07, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
It isn't something you will need to worry about often because you will likely rarely see one. WIWAFO, I was a spectacle because many people had never seen one. It was sort of like...people would say "what...are you?" "so that's a senior member?" or display me like "look. This is a Flight Officer. Have you ever seen one of these?"
People who had been in for decades told me that they had never seen one in real life. I overheard a conversation behind me between a National person and a PAWG person. The National person asked "what's wrong with his epaulets?" "whose?" "the guy with the lines" "nothing. He is a flight officer." "so he is like a senior member?" "yes, he is a senior member but that means it isn't yet 21"
I get the same looks/comments in my area of the US! I like being unique :D
Quote from: Al Sayre on June 07, 2011, 07:57:07 PM
CAPF 2a to NHQ w/ c.c. to the Wing/Group Prof Dev, Pers, & Admin. (Squadron CC is promoting authority for 2d Lt & 1st Lt) Just put the explanation in the box: SFO Junior Donuteater has x Mos y Years TIG as SFO and has completed ABC Technician rating (or has credit for it iaw CAPR ...) and is therefore recommended for promotion to the grade of 1st Lt iaw CAPR XXX.
I am turning 21 in July and have heard that I have to send a CAPF 2a to NHQ but have not heard that I have CC Wing/Group Prof Dev, Pers & Admin. So, can this be sent via email then or by snail mail ?
Quote from: CyBorg on June 07, 2011, 08:29:49 PM
The Flight Officer grades are a very, very rough analogy to Warrant Officers (which I wish CAP would bring back), but I can count on the fingers of one hand how many I've seen in 18 years of CAP, and I've never seen one higher than a TFO.
I am an SFO :)
When I said c.c. I meant Carbon Copy/Courtesy Copy, not that you need their approvals.
Forms listed with an asterisk (*) may be transmitted without a person's actual signature via e-mail only. This includes CAPF2 (not 2a as I stated earlier)
Don't waste your Group/Wing PD guy's time with Form 2s. He deals with professional development issues, not promotions.