So i got into kind of a heated debate over wearing GTM insignia after you are no longer a GTM/GTL/GBD...
Now i know pilots get to keep their wings after they are no longer certified, but what about GTM?
I tend to think that you don't get to keep them on your uniform, but i cant find any guidance in the regs.... help?
it is an award, not a qualification.
It is the Ground Team Badge.
Once earned, it's there.
Why should GTM be any different? IIRC the EMT badges and CPR patches are the ones that must be removed when no longer current. If someone has to remove their GT badge, then you shouldn't wear AFSC etc badges you are no longer current in either.
got it, well i was wrong...mark the date on your all's calender....
Thanks for the info
Quote from: MIKE on June 01, 2011, 02:55:04 AM
Why should GTM be any different? IIRC the EMT badges and CPR patches are the ones that must be removed when no longer current. If someone has to remove their GT badge, then you shouldn't wear AFSC etc badges you are no longer current in either.
According to Suzie Parker, the EMT badge is in the same category as the GTM badges and is not required to be removed if no longer current.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 01, 2011, 02:57:59 AMAccording to Suzie Parker, the EMT badge is in the same category as the GTM badges and is not required to be removed if no longer current.
I'll accept her word on that as long as people also accept that it is GTM or EMT, not both as is common.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 01, 2011, 02:57:59 AM
Quote from: MIKE on June 01, 2011, 02:55:04 AM
Why should GTM be any different? IIRC the EMT badges and CPR patches are the ones that must be removed when no longer current. If someone has to remove their GT badge, then you shouldn't wear AFSC etc badges you are no longer current in either.
According to Suzie Parker, the EMT badge is in the same category as the GTM badges and is not required to be removed if no longer current.
I'm still trying to Find Where in the Regs or ICL's where it even allows us to wear the EMT badge. 39-1 tells you where to place it but not the criteria. The KB says you must be current to have it awarded, but there is nothing in there about removing it. CPR Patches must be removed when no longer current
^ IIRC the previous CAPM 39-1 did state all this in the table. I will concede that the current edition does not.
I'm not too sure about regs or ICL's about wear of the GTM Badge, but if you take a look at eServices, the GTM qualification, is not the GTM badge. They are entered differently and the badge itself shows on your record with no expiration date while the GTM qualification does have the expiration.
And the same goes for the ES patch, Observer ratings, ES Ops Qual badges, and GT badges.
Bear in mind that the ability to award the badges themselves, separate from the rating, is pretty new in eServices - maybe a year or two at most.
Previous to that it was not uncommon to have older or less active members wearing badges they could not substantiate because the earned
them outside the qualification period and all the paper had long since been lost.
The CAP knowledge-base says you must be a licensed EMT to wear the EMT badge (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1484).
As for the Ground Team and EMT badges both being on a uniform, was that ever straightened out conclusively or is it still a matter of interpretation?
I think it is pretty clear that there is no provision for wearing a specialty insignia above another.
Quote from: Eclipse
I'll accept her word on that as long as people also accept that it is GTM or EMT, not both as is common.
Who says you can't wear both?
^CAPM 39-1
Quote from: MIKE on June 01, 2011, 06:04:56 PM
^CAPM 39-1
6-5
CAP ribbons, CAP aviation badge and one additional CAP badge may be worn (specialty insignia, specialty badge or command badge).
I'm assuming thats what this means then.
The EMT badge occupy the same place on the uniform, in addition 39-1 saying so, we'v confirmed this with NHQ on more than one occasion.
The same goes for a military occupation badge and GT, etc. I've seen more than one person wearing a subdued military badge under
a CAP GT badge as if it was ok, and plenty with a military badge and GT, or GT and IC, etc.
Gotta pick one.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 01, 2011, 07:09:16 PM
The same goes for a military occupation badge and GT, etc. I've seen more than one person wearing a subdued military badge under
a CAP GT badge as if it was ok, and plenty with a military badge and GT, or GT and IC, etc.
Gotta pick one.
Slight threat drift, for which I apologize, but I also did not want to create a whole new thread for what should be a simple yes/no answer. The quoted comment above is not explicitly stated in the 39-1, however it is explicitly noted in the Knowledgebase. Is the CAP Knowledgebase considered a valid publication from NHQ? Is it considered binding to the membership to adhere to the directives put forth in the Knowledgebase?
Quote from: BGNightfall on June 01, 2011, 07:55:27 PM
Slight threat drift, for which I apologize, but I also did not want to create a whole new thread for what should be a simple yes/no answer. The quoted comment above is not explicitly stated in the 39-1, however it is explicitly noted in the Knowledgebase. Is the CAP Knowledgebase considered a valid publication from NHQ? Is it considered binding to the membership to adhere to the directives put forth in the Knowledgebase?
Yes, unless you disagree.
The KB is not, in and of itself, regulatory, and in more than a few cases has been shown to be incorrect.
In most cases it just quotes and shortcuts to existing regulations, so it's not being regulatory in and of itself, only quoting other pubs.
The challenge comes when a staffer writes a subjective opinion and posts it as fact. NHQ staffers, while possibly sitting right next to
the person with the authority, or being in the meeting where the issue was discussed, or even being privy to the printing of the
reg that changes things, do not in and of of themselves have authority to make policy of changes our regs, so that leaves
room for people to argue about the regulatory nature of the resource.
So what most people do is use it as support for a subjective decision, or ignore it as not authoritative when they disagree.
Frankly, once the KB says something that is further backed by Suzy Parker, that is good enough for me, regardless of whether I personally agree.
I always thought that the Knowledge base is "regs made easy", meaning they have to cite the reg they use to justify their answer.
Without quoting the reg, it's permanent -- just like pilot and observer wings.
Just a hint, the next time or you might try now. You can log into e-services, go to personal ES qualifications and enter yourself for the award. Once updated in e-services, you will see that the award is permanent and does not have an expiration date like normal ES qualifications.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 01, 2011, 02:57:59 AM
Quote from: MIKE on June 01, 2011, 02:55:04 AM
Why should GTM be any different? IIRC the EMT badges and CPR patches are the ones that must be removed when no longer current. If someone has to remove their GT badge, then you shouldn't wear AFSC etc badges you are no longer current in either.
According to Suzie Parker, the EMT badge is in the same category as the GTM badges and is not required to be removed if no longer current.
I would have a SERIOUS problem with this. In the event of a -albeit rare- emergency at a meeting/mission the presence of the EMT badge (or MD/RN device) tells me that someone is certified and currently able to act in addition to the level of certification. IE Basic- EMT/ Senior- Intermediate/ Master- Paragod.
If one who is wearing this badge is NOT currently certified as an EMS type the LEGAL ramifications regarding care rendered for all involved are HUGE. I have know people without medical certs to get slapped with fines in the thousands of dollars simply for applying a c-collar.
As far as the GTM badge... I would be ok with keeping that.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on June 02, 2011, 07:07:59 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on June 01, 2011, 02:57:59 AM
Quote from: MIKE on June 01, 2011, 02:55:04 AM
Why should GTM be any different? IIRC the EMT badges and CPR patches are the ones that must be removed when no longer current. If someone has to remove their GT badge, then you shouldn't wear AFSC etc badges you are no longer current in either.
According to Suzie Parker, the EMT badge is in the same category as the GTM badges and is not required to be removed if no longer current.
I would have a SERIOUS problem with this. In the event of a -albeit rare- emergency at a meeting/mission the presence of the EMT badge (or MD/RN device) tells me that someone is certified and currently able to act in addition to the level of certification. IE Basic- EMT/ Senior- Intermediate/ Master- Paragod.
If one who is wearing this badge is NOT currently certified as an EMS type the LEGAL ramifications regarding care rendered for all involved are HUGE. I have know people without medical certs to get slapped with fines in the thousands of dollars simply for applying a c-collar.
As far as the GTM badge... I would be ok with keeping that.
Doesn't seem to matter if we like it or not (for the record, I don't either), there's nothing in the regulations saying it has to come off if their license lapses. Granted, a properly conducted conversation could eliminate the problem and the badge. But, if the recipient of that conversation didn't see things the same way, and told us to pound sand, there's nothing we can do about it.
Prior to the EMT badge, we were allowed to wear any patch displaying the star of life, and the CAPM 39-1 of that time included verbiage that it had to be removed if the wearer was not currently certified. No such language exists for the current badge.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on June 02, 2011, 07:07:59 AMIf one who is wearing this badge is NOT currently certified as an EMS type the LEGAL ramifications regarding care rendered for all involved are HUGE. I have know people without medical certs to get slapped with fines in the thousands of dollars simply for applying a c-collar.
The legal ramifications are not based on what badge they are wearing, they are based on the care they rendered, or the fraud perpetrated by telling
people they are current.
Is CAP the only place they have discussions like this? Do they ask these questions in the RM? There are hundreds if not thousands of military personnel that wore a set of jump wings on their uniform today who have not jumped out of a perfectly good airplane since they made the last of their 5 exits at jump school. That may have been three weeks or thirty years ago. Nobody is going to worry about whether they should be wearing the wings whether are on jump status or not. They did the work, they earned the badge, they wear it. This would include the EMT or GT badge for us. At one time you did the work, you earned the badge, and you wear it. It signifies achievement not currency. To say otherwise is just splitting hairs but that seems to be the trend here on CT.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 01, 2011, 02:57:59 AM
According to Suzie Parker, the EMT badge is in the same category as the GTM badges and is not required to be removed if no longer current.
The Word I got from Suzie Parker today was that the EMT badge is currently approved at all three levels but that it must be removed if no longer currently licensed/certified. I disagree with that but that's the word I got from her.
Quote from: ol'fido on June 02, 2011, 11:32:51 PM
Is CAP the only place they have discussions like this? Do they ask these questions in the RM? There are hundreds if not thousands of military personnel that wore a set of jump wings on their uniform today who have not jumped out of a perfectly good airplane since they made the last of their 5 exits at jump school. That may have been three weeks or thirty years ago. Nobody is going to worry about whether they should be wearing the wings whether are on jump status or not. They did the work, they earned the badge, they wear it. This would include the EMT or GT badge for us. At one time you did the work, you earned the badge, and you wear it. It signifies achievement not currency. To say otherwise is just splitting hairs but that seems to be the trend here on CT.
The difference is that in the Army you are supposed to always remember your training and job no matter what you have been doing for the past ten years. So if I were to go back in, I would still be expected to be proficient in AASLT Operations, and be a proficient Infantryman no matter if I were pushing papers. There is no training lapse date, or proficiency timing requirement or anything of the sort, once you are trained, you are trained, and if they push you out of a helicopter with wings, you better know what you are doing. Not so in CAP.
Uh....no.
They award the badge as sign of acomplishing a set of objectives.....and that is it. The badge has nothing to do with your current qualifications....nor is there ever an expectation that you will remain current in what ever the training was.
I don't know why CAP has the stuipid rule about the EMT badge.....it is the only one that has to be removed when no longer current. One of the many things that need to be fixed IMHO.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on June 03, 2011, 02:34:11 AM
The difference is that in the Army you are supposed to always remember your training and job no matter what you have been doing for the past ten years. So if I were to go back in, I would still be expected to be proficient in AASLT Operations, and be a proficient Infantryman no matter if I were pushing papers. There is no training lapse date, or proficiency timing requirement or anything of the sort, once you are trained, you are trained, and if they push you out of a helicopter with wings, you better know what you are doing. Not so in CAP.
Not so
anywhere, Army included.
You're saying a military pilot who loses his flight quals because of a medical condition and goes on to an admin job is expected to remain
proficient as a pilot just because he is wearing wings on his uniform?
Or a doctor who completed his requisite jumps as part of airborne training, but then goes on to run a hospital? He's expected to keep jumping
and doing fieldwork?
How does that work, exactly?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on June 03, 2011, 02:34:11 AM
There is no training lapse date, or proficiency timing requirement or anything of the sort, once you are trained, you are trained, and if they push you out of a helicopter with wings, you better know what you are doing.
I don't see that being accurate.I've been on flight status, but it's been two years since I crewed, and at present I would not be permitted to crew. I would require up to twenty hours of retraining/refresher to perform the duties again. That would include progression under a Standardizations or Flight instructor, and would have to be documented. I would never be just tossed back into the crew pool without it.
I seriously doubt that you would get pushed out of a helicopter for an air assault unless you can show training or operational experience in the last six months.
I also seriously doubt that the Army would pull your Bullwinkle if you couldn't do an air assault today when the last one you did was a decade ago. It would be foolish on the Army's part to do so. Not to mention, it could get someone killed.
Additionally, there is the factor that the badge is the result of a school attendance, not necessarily having the skills.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on June 03, 2011, 02:34:11 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on June 02, 2011, 11:32:51 PM
Is CAP the only place they have discussions like this? Do they ask these questions in the RM? There are hundreds if not thousands of military personnel that wore a set of jump wings on their uniform today who have not jumped out of a perfectly good airplane since they made the last of their 5 exits at jump school. That may have been three weeks or thirty years ago. Nobody is going to worry about whether they should be wearing the wings whether are on jump status or not. They did the work, they earned the badge, they wear it. This would include the EMT or GT badge for us. At one time you did the work, you earned the badge, and you wear it. It signifies achievement not currency. To say otherwise is just splitting hairs but that seems to be the trend here on CT.
The difference is that in the Army you are supposed to always remember your training and job no matter what you have been doing for the past ten years. So if I were to go back in, I would still be expected to be proficient in AASLT Operations, and be a proficient Infantryman no matter if I were pushing papers. There is no training lapse date, or proficiency timing requirement or anything of the sort, once you are trained, you are trained, and if they push you out of a helicopter with wings, you better know what you are doing. Not so in CAP.
Scott, it doesn't quite work like that. Whether it be AF, Army or whatever there will be proficiency training if required prior to performing in a skill set or operating a weapon system/aircraft etc.