This situation has recently been brought to my attention. A cadet has recently been given a demotion. He has been given a couple of verbal warnings but never a writen one. The situation is not one like stealing etc. But more of a arguemnt of cadets on Facebook, that he used a bad choice of words. Does the cadet have a right to appel due to the lack of actual written warnings and discipleanry action? And should he?
Quote from: CAPR 52-165-14. Demotions and Terminations. In exceptional circumstances, the unit commander may demote a CAP cadet for cause, up to a maximum of three steps in the Cadet Program (i.e.: three achievements, or two achievements and a milestone award).
a. Notification and Effective Date. The unit commander notifies the cadet of the demotion in writing, forwarding a courtesy copy to the commander at the next echelon. The demotion period begins the date the unit commander approves the demotion request if there is no appeal.
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
c. Appeals. The cadet may appeal the demotion decision by writing the commander of the next echelon, courtesy copied to the unit commander, within 30 days of receiving the demotion notice.
(1) The commander at the next echelon (normally at the group or wing level) will rule on the cadet's appeal request within 30 days of receiving the appeal request letter. This commander is the final authority on all cadet demotion actions.
(2) Cadets who appeal a demotion are ineligible to progress in the Cadet Program until the commander who has the appeals authority rules on the appeal. If the demotion is approved after an appeal, the cadet will be immediately demoted. If the demotion is overturned after an appeal, the cadet will be allowed to progress as if no demotion occurred.
(3) In evaluating an appeal, the commander reviews the facts of the situation, whether demotion was the appropriate punishment, and whether the demotion was carried out in accordance with this regulation.
d. Effect on Ribbons and Awards. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, just the achievements earned and any grade associated with these achievements. Demoted cadets retain their milestone awards, unless the awards are revoked as outlined in paragraph 5-15.
5-14. Demotions and Terminations. In exceptional circumstances, the unit commander may demote a CAP cadet for cause, up to a maximum of three steps in the Cadet Program (i.e.: three achievements, or two achievements and a milestone award).
a. Notification and Effective Date. The unit commander notifies the cadet of the demotion in writing, forwarding a courtesy copy to the commander at the next echelon. The demotion period begins the date the unit commander approves the demotion request if there is no appeal.
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
c. Appeals. The cadet may appeal the demotion decision by writing the commander of the next echelon, courtesy copied to the unit commander, within 30 days of receiving the demotion notice.
(1) The commander at the next echelon (normally at the group or wing level) will rule on the cadet's appeal request within 30 days of receiving the appeal request letter. This commander is the final authority on all cadet demotion actions.
(2) Cadets who appeal a demotion are ineligible to progress in the Cadet Program until the commander who has the appeals authority rules on the appeal. If the demotion is approved after an appeal, the cadet will be immediately demoted. If the demotion is overturned after an appeal, the cadet will be allowed to progress as if no demotion occurred.
(3) In evaluating an appeal, the commander reviews the facts of the situation, whether demotion was the appropriate punishment, and whether the demotion was carried out in accordance with this regulation.
d. Effect on Ribbons and Awards. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, just the achievements earned and any grade associated with these achievements. Demoted cadets retain their milestone awards, unless the awards are revoked as outlined in paragraph 5-15.
Take a look at this regulation: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R035_008_B5088B41928F7.pdf
As far as I can see, there is nothing in the MARB guidelines that prevent a Cadet from appealing a demotion. There is no requirement for a written warning per se, although anyone who has a "problem child" (cadet or senior) should do a "form 50" review to keep them on the straight and narrow. If the Cadet feels that his demotion was unjust or not in accordance with regulations, he should go through his chain of command as far as is practicable before jumping to the formal complaint process. The phrase " A bad choice of words" could mean anything from a sarcastic quip all the way up to death threats, and your words and actions on Facebook are not necessarily protected. I won't deny that CAP has had a few Senior Members in it's history that have become drunk with their newfound "command" power, and acted emotionally and prematurely. Be careful not to make assumptions about who the "bad guy" really is in the process; There may not actually be one.
Major Lord
Quoteb. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
I read this as they must earn back the stripes, that they *will* promote every 60 days. Or Else. 2B.
Where as standard expected advancement is two stripes per year.
Is that really what they mean here? If you were demoted, you are supposed to earn it back at the earliest possible opportunity as part of that punishment? (of course, following the regulation and satisfactory performance), but not slower than the absolute minimum time?
Thank you Mike and Eclipse ,but that kind of didnt answer my question. In the regs it never talks about a actual disciplainry proces.Like coaching (mentoring) to informal warning to written warning to demotion to dismisal from CAPcadet programs. In this cadets situation he had a verbal interaction over facebook. Nothing physical or face to face. He in the pass has down a few mistakes like responding to a IC for assets when he was only a GTM3 Trainee. For the small things like that he recieved a verbal warning and never did the same things. Anything he has done in the past has been small interactions and he always recieved a verbal warning. Now this this situation it was on the web and the Wing Commander seen the whole interaction between the two cadets. Both cadets are at fault but only one is recieving ademotion. Do you kind of get the picture now?
Quote from: a2capt on May 27, 2011, 02:30:16 AM
Quoteb. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
I read this as they must earn back the stripes, that they *will* promote every 60 days. Or Else. 2B.
Where as standard expected advancement is two stripes per year.
Is that really what they mean here? If you were demoted, you are supposed to earn it back at the earliest possible opportunity as part of that punishment? (of course, following the regulation and satisfactory performance), but not slower than the absolute minimum time?
I believe it is, because even as it is the cadet will not be behind the curve on progression, and re-earning
stripes you've already earned should not be as hard as the first time.
They are not retesting, they are just earning stripes back one every 60 days via satisfactory performance... or they get canned. If you bust somebody from C/SrA to C/A1C and they don't clean up their act... they are gone after 60 days.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2011, 02:20:40 AM
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
Emphasis mine. You do not have to, but you are given the
opportunity to terminate if needed.
Granted, I have never had to demote or 2B a cadet, so I've never been in the position.
DN
Quote from: colkemp on May 27, 2011, 02:33:33 AM
Thank you Mike and Eclipse ,but that kind of didnt answer my question. In the regs it never talks about a actual disciplainry proces.Like coaching (mentoring) to informal warning to written warning to demotion to dismisal from CAPcadet programs. In this cadets situation he had a verbal interaction over facebook. Nothing physical or face to face. He in the pass has down a few mistakes like responding to a IC for assets when he was only a GTM3 Trainee. For the small things like that he recieved a verbal warning and never did the same things. Anything he has done in the past has been small interactions and he always recieved a verbal warning. Now this this situation it was on the web and the Wing Commander seen the whole interaction between the two cadets. Both cadets are at fault but only one is recieving ademotion. Do you kind of get the picture now?
See Major Lord's answer above - there disciplinary process is not very specific, but most commanders use a demotion only as the "Armageddon Solution".
It will be very difficult to address the specifics here because we only have a second-hand version of one side, however the fact that you say the Wing CC is already aware may mean he's the one who recommended demotion, in which case it is likely to stick.
From a general perspective, if he decides to appeal, it should directly address his demotion and leave others out of it, unless the others "not demoted" were involved in the specific and same situation and you he would be charging the commander with unfair bias. Otherwise, situations are usually not the same enough to compare.
Quote from: Chief2009 on May 27, 2011, 02:39:10 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2011, 02:20:40 AM
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules.) If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
Emphasis mine. You do not have to, but you are given the opportunity to terminate if needed.
Agreed, but bear in mind that you have a cadet now who was "x" enough to get bounced back, and now has taken 60-120 days and still not corrected the behavior.
Start to finish that might be 6+months of nonsense (depending on the build-up), which is unacceptable.
There is no specific requirement that I'm aware of for "graduated discipline" (ie. verbal, written, etc) prior to a demotion.
Now, its was always my policy, as a unit commander, to use all the tools in the toolbox appropriately. No use going straight to the hammer and chisel when an open-end wrench will do. There are gentle ways to make a course correction (verbal warning), a notification (written warning), a course of action with consequences (counseling statement), then consequences (demotion or suspension) and the nuclear option (termination).
I also suggested these kinds of processes and procedures as a director of cadet programs during SLS/CLC & TLC evolutions as a way to keep things on the up-and-up and to keep commanders out of trouble.
I've demoted cadets. Every one was upheld, mostly due to the well documented chain of progressive discipline leading up to the demotion. Same goes for terminations.
I've also helped cadets write appeal letters for demotions that were poorly documented, tenuously justified and not executed within the requirements of the regulations (reversed, and a fire lit under a Region IG in one case)
That being said: If the commander can legitimately justify the demotion, then there is nothing that *requires* other warnings, written or otherwise, or even any progressive discipline. Some times the circumstances don't warrant.
Example: I had a C/TSgt decide that he wanted to attempt to firebomb a fellow student's car in the school parking lot, got caught and was tossed out of school and under some kind of remand with the juvenile authorities. I demoted him to C/SrA, pending the outcome of his case with the authorities. Not like I had any opportunity for progressive discipline in this case ("here, let me verbally warn you not to build and employ an incendiary device in a school parking lot, just in case you do it again..."), or much recourse otherwise (ie. I'm not going to allow an NCO wantonly break the law without some consequences in CAP too. Thats not the example I want C/NCOs setting for the cadets) He was given the opportunity to earn back his grade, but he elected to leave CAP.
Bottom line: if the demotion is appropriately justified and documented, and carried out IAW with the regulations, then it shouldn't be an issue and will likely be upheld on appeal. (obviously, I don't know all the circumstances in this case, and who knows, maybe not..)
Though a formal system isn't defined, we use a progressive disciplinary process that ends with demotion and termination as the final two (most severe) stops. Like NIN said, there might be extreme circumstances where you might "skip to the end".
But another factor, and this is key here...
When I recommend a demotion or termination, I as the deputy commander for cadets, am the driver on that move. It's the squadron commander's actual authority that does it. Basically he doesn't do it unless I ask him to; and if I ask him to, he does it. Now here's the kicker... if we go to this extreme, we run it through the group commander first... at the very least to make sure he knows what is up. So if a cadet appeals a demotion, to the group commander; the group commander is probably already versed on what is going on, and probably already approved (or didn't disapprove) of the action up front.
In this way, it is sometimes better to just own up to the mistake, accept the punishment, take the lumps, adjust to a positive attitude, and move forward.
Granted, not everyone does it that way...
Sometimes commanders take unilateral actions. Sometimes they even take unfair actions. It happens.
With regards to two cadets being treated differently, a few factors may be at play here...
1. While cadets are held to the same standard, senior ranking cadets hold more responsibility and thus more accountability.
2. In the arena of public behavior, particularly on something like facebook, without knowing the particulars of the situation; just fighting on facebook itself might be generally foul. However if one cadet crossed a line bringing specific discredit upon CAP (whereas the other one didn't) then that one cadet may be entering disciplinary action land, whereas the other cadet didn't.
fwiw, the -very- few times I have demoted a cadet, I have used the demotion to present two -VERY- clear paths for the cadet to follow. One path leads back into good graces. The other path leads out the door. Choice is -entirely- on the cadet, which path they take.