CAP Talk

Check out the slides on the latest NEC meeting.  Apparently with about 50% of cadets leaving the program by the first year, looks like they are going to look at possibly of NOT issuing uniforms to cadets in the first year of membership.

Perhaps simply cadet will just have a CAP Tshirt, wear jeans and have a little rank on the TShirt for the first year. >:D
RM 

A more reasonable approach would be to ensure these FCU-issued uniforms are recovered by the squadrons when a cadet leaves the program.  Some units do this already and it helps create a good supply of uniform for those cadets who do stay in and outgrow or wear out their FCU issue.

Maybe part of the problem is that when the new cadets order the uniform it takes upwards of a year to receive it. 

The FCUP is a good program, if it is implemented as designed. 

However, I think that cooler heads will prevail and the NEC will see the value in getting the cadets in uniform within the first year. 

three of our cadets who recently ordered had outgrown them before they FINALLY arrived

Quote from: Pylon on May 12, 2011, 12:13:05 AM
A more reasonable approach would be to ensure these FCU-issued uniforms are recovered by the squadrons when a cadet leaves the program.  Some units do this already and it helps create a good supply of uniform for those cadets who do stay in and outgrow or wear out their FCU issue.

Personally as a taxpayer my feeling is that there should be NO issue of uniforms unless the parent/guardian specifically acknowledges that the uniform is the property of CAP as funded by the USAF and will be return IF the member leaves CAP.   HOWEVER, apparently CAP has NO legal right to get back a uniform that they want to go to small claims court for SO there's likely a lot of losses, that's why it was brought up and is being studied.
RM         

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 12, 2011, 12:37:49 AM

Quote from: Pylon on May 12, 2011, 12:13:05 AM
A more reasonable approach would be to ensure these FCU-issued uniforms are recovered by the squadrons when a cadet leaves the program.  Some units do this already and it helps create a good supply of uniform for those cadets who do stay in and outgrow or wear out their FCU issue.

Personally as a taxpayer my feeling is that there should be NO issue of uniforms unless the parent/guardian specifically acknowledges that the uniform is the property of CAP as funded by the USAF and will be return IF the member leaves CAP.   HOWEVER, apparently CAP has NO legal right to get back a uniform that they want to go to small claims court for SO there's likely a lot of losses, that's why it was brought up and is being studied.
RM         

CAP has every right to get back corporate property, included in that is issued uniforms.

This is a fast way to kill the cadet program in less than well to do areas, because sometimes the only hope of getting a uniform for those type of kids is that uniform program....

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 12, 2011, 12:37:49 AMPersonally as a taxpayer my feeling is that there should be NO issue of uniforms unless the parent/guardian specifically acknowledges that the uniform is the property of CAP as funded by the USAF and will be return IF the member leaves CAP.

Then you might be happy to know that before cadets can even join CAP, their parent/guardian must stipulate as such on the Application for Cadet Membership (CAPF 15) (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F015_9C2337B9FC619.pdf):

Quote from: CAPF15I understand if my child receives a free uniform and withdraws from the program during the first year that I assume responsibility for this uniform on behalf of my minor child and the uniform must be returned or replaced.

I have to agree, it take months for those uniforms to come in.   In any case, we usually have uniforms form them...or acquire uniforms and stockpile just for that reason.

it's moderately common practice for us to issue to new cadets out of storage,
and then when their fcu comes in we put it straight into the stockpile

in any event, any time *any* cadet (not just first year) leaves the program, we try with pretty good success, to get back the blues.  They often give us other stuff back too, just because they don't want it anymore.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 12, 2011, 12:37:49 AM
Personally as a taxpayer my feeling is that there should be NO issue of uniforms unless the parent/guardian specifically acknowledges that the uniform is the property of CAP as funded by the USAF and will be return IF the member leaves CAP.   HOWEVER, apparently CAP has NO legal right to get back a uniform that they want to go to small claims court for SO there's likely a lot of losses, that's why it was brought up and is being studied.
RM         

I include a Uniform Return Contract with our potential cadet packet. It states that any uniform item issued by the squadron or USAF are the property of CAP and must be returned when the cadet leaves the program. It is signed by the cadet and parent.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 12, 2011, 12:03:18 AM
Check out the slides on the latest NEC meeting.  Apparently with about 50% of cadets leaving the program by the first year, looks like they are going to look at possibly of NOT issuing uniforms to cadets in the first year of membership.

Perhaps simply cadet will just have a CAP Tshirt, wear jeans and have a little rank on the TShirt for the first year. >:D
RM

Seems to me the better solution would be to address cadet retention rather than penalizing the remaining 50% who do stick it out. The Cadet Great Start program is a good start but it really falls on the wing/group/squadron to create a program that keeps cadets interested and busy.

Honestly, I don't think this would be that big of a loss... particularly among first year cadets.  From my own experience the service uniform is not the primary uniform of the CP in my area, despite what CAPM 39-1 may say.  It has become a once a month uniform among meeting nights dominated by the BDU.

Quote from: MIKE on May 13, 2011, 08:36:39 PM
Honestly, I don't think this would be that big of a loss... particularly among first year cadets.  From my own experience the service uniform is not the primary uniform of the CP in my area, despite what CAPM 39-1 may say.  It has become a once a month uniform among meeting nights dominated by the BDU.

Very true, but if blues only get used once a month or less (and only because we like to rotate the uniforms) and cadets don't get a free blues uniform, I can see a lot of cadets just not buying a blues uniform at all.  After all it's a value proposition.  If you wear BDUs every week and can participate in weekly meetings, bivouacs, SAREXes, orientation flights, etc. all with just BDUs, then how many cadet's families are going to want to buy a blues uniform (at probably a $100-$150+ investment per cadet) when (until they want to go to an encampment or parade) it's just a "nice to have" item?   Then you end up with cadets who can't participate in the parade next weekend or attend the squadron awards banquet because they don't have blues and aren't willing to make the big investment for one event.  It also then mentally increases the barrier cost of going to things like encampment (in a parent's mind, if the cadet has to buy a blue's uniform they wouldn't need otherwise, the perceived cost of encampment to them becomes encampment fee + cost of blues + cost of gear needed).

Quote from: ltdomke on May 13, 2011, 07:42:07 PM
Seems to me the better solution would be to address cadet retention rather than penalizing the remaining 50% who do stick it out. The Cadet Great Start program is a good start but it really falls on the wing/group/squadron to create a program that keeps cadets interested and busy.

Good point.

As it turns out, our figures show that cadets who receive a free uniform have a higher retention rate than cadets who do not.  IIRC, by a little under a third.

In terms of overall first year retention, if you look back historically, it has pretty much always hovered at the 50% rate for first-year cadets.  Give or take.

Although that sounds bad, it is similar to what other youth organizations experience:  Scouting, Royal Rangers, band, and the wrestling club all do about the same.  I suspect part of the issue is the age cohort we are dealing with  13-16 year olds, all of whom are busy trying to figure out who they are.  And frequently "try on" activities, hobbies, and organizations to see if it suits them.

I'm not saying we can't do better.  Clearly we can.  Mostly by making sure that Tuesday night is an exciting and challenging event for out cadets.  Every . . . . darn . . . .week.  Good meetings raise retention, sucky meetings lower it.  "It's all about Tuesday night."

As to the OP, the matter is being reviewed by a special NEC committee; no changes are planned anytime soon.  Complicating the issue is that this is a use of appropriated funds.  If we decide not to offer free uniforms to our cadets in all likelihood we will simply lose the money.  It is not a matter where we can simply transfer the funds to another purpose.

Ned Lee
CP Guy

In an ideal world, instead of having the uniform mailed to the cadet weeks or even months after they join, they would get a voucher redeemable at any MCSS that sells AF uniforms for the items normally supplied. The cadet could actually get a uniform that fits with a little wiggle room for growth. But a lot of our cadets don't live near a base and it might be an accounting nightmare.

Quote from: ol'fido on May 13, 2011, 09:45:18 PM
In an ideal world, instead of having the uniform mailed to the cadet weeks or even months after they join, they would get a voucher redeemable at any MCSS that sells AF uniforms for the items normally supplied. The cadet could actually get a uniform that fits with a little wiggle room for growth. But a lot of our cadets don't live near a base and it might be an accounting nightmare.

Heck, I'll do you one better.  I've been pressing for a process that would allow each cadet to be issued an electronic "voucher" that would allow them to log into aafes.com and order.  Cuts out a lot of middlemen. 

We're working on it, but nothing moves swiftly when it involves aafes and DEERS.

Quote from: Ned on May 13, 2011, 09:56:10 PMWe're working on it, but nothing moves swiftly when it involves aafes and DEERS.

I have to say that I will believe it when I see it, considering that we apparently have members being told they can't even shop there right now.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 12, 2011, 12:03:18 AM
Check out the slides on the latest NEC meeting.  Apparently with about 50% of cadets leaving the program by the first year, looks like they are going to look at possibly of NOT issuing uniforms to cadets in the first year of membership.

Perhaps simply cadet will just have a CAP Tshirt, wear jeans and have a little rank on the TShirt for the first year. >:D
RM

I think this is, at least, the third time CAP has looked into the issue.  The program has changed over the years and, the budget for the uniforms has been scrutinized many times. 

If it is to continue, I would love to see a streamlined and easier way for cadets to get them; I hope an acceptable solution is found soon.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 13, 2011, 10:29:26 PM

Quote from: Ned on May 13, 2011, 09:56:10 PMWe're working on it, but nothing moves swiftly when it involves aafes and DEERS.

I have to say that I will believe it when I see it, considering that we apparently have members being told they can't even shop there right now.

Another way to get uniforms is to find squadrons that are next to military clothing stores and send them a check to do the shopping for you.   I know at our local base, I was recently talking with the manager of that area and basically some sizes are very slow at coming in.  The AF/AFRES/ANG I think are looking at FINALLY requiring those folks that work in offices to start wearing the blue uniforms again so this is putting pressure on the logistics system that is based upon historic demand.  It was absurd that everyone was running around bases in BDU's/ACU's etc. 
RM   

No, it's not absurd. This has gone back and forth a few times over the past couple of decades that I know of and probably since the AF's aircraft inventory was made entirely by Wright. The usual reason for switching to BDUs/ABUs is to show that the AF personnel are warriors and then another commander thinks all the BDUs/ABUs look sloppy and puts everyone back in blues. Put me down solidly in favor of the BDU/ABU/flight suit.

Quote from: ol'fido on May 14, 2011, 02:20:10 AM
The usual reason for switching to BDUs/ABUs is to show that the AF personnel are warriors

I've always been curious about this. How does flight suit or ABU make someone look like 'a warrior?' Isn't that more of a matter of atttitude then anything else? Are the bulk of Air Force guys 'Warriors?' Heck, is the bulk of the US military 'warriors?'

I saw a picture of the ground breaking at the new Walter Reed Medical Center, and everyone except the Army general was in dress uniform. How is that professional?

Being a warrior is not an occupation, it's a mindset. If you are in the military, a cop, a firefighter, in EMS, and have put yourself between the good people and the things and the people that go bump in the night, you are a warrior.

I hate to tell y'all this...because it tends to "burst" a lot  of people "uniform preference" bubble... but which "class" of military clothing you wear at any given time has no true barring on the idea of being a "warrior."  Simply but, if one took the oath, completed the training and preforms the duties (in dress uniform or in field/utilities) they are, by definition, a warrior.

If this idea of dressing in some sort of artificial "warrior" ethos has bearing, the there is no use for a dress uniform and field uniforms should be used for everything. (scoff...blasphemy...and, POP!)

Folks, the AF recently made an announcement that they are going to control civilian positions with a 1 to 2 fill ratio, meaning if 2 leave only 1 is hired.

The point is that the AF budget for FY 13/FY14 may have some fairly drastic reductions in it, and I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some fairly drastic changes in CAP's funding.

We really need to be looking at how to bring down costs, and perhaps cadet first year uniform costs need to be looked at very carefully.  (and also the entire Junior ROTC program with the free shoes needs to REALLY be looked at).   Also what is the effective recovery rate for uniforms when a cadet fails to renew ???  Perhaps the IG needs to make this a special interest item.

Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts. :(
RM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 14, 2011, 05:50:40 PM
Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.

Our funding has no impact on Air Force funding.  Cutting CAP's 30 million doesn't mean that the Air Force can buy another F-16, or hire 100 contractors. We are a completely separate cost center and our grant is only overseen by the AF to ensure that we aren't using our appropriated money incorrectly.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 14, 2011, 06:59:39 PM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 14, 2011, 05:50:40 PM
Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.

Our funding has no impact on Air Force funding.  Cutting CAP's 30 million doesn't mean that the Air Force can buy another F-16, or hire 100 contractors. We are a completely separate cost center and our grant is only overseen by the AF to ensure that we aren't using our appropriated money incorrectly.

May I suggest you look at this particular reference:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI65-601V1.pdf
Pay specific attention to page 134 Section 7E, "CAP & CAP LO Offices"  to the Budget Guidance & Procedures Instruction (Regulation).
It looks to me that this is pretty specific regarding budget matters that the USAF is responsible for this and there's NO direct line with congress.  It's still the AF staffers that do the work on the budget.  IF there's an across the board decrease ordered than that's what will happen.
RM   

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 14, 2011, 05:50:40 PMWe really need to be looking at how to bring down costs

Considering the millions of dollars of services we provide the USAF each year for free, I think we're doing pretty well on the ROI.  Drop one less
bomb or two and leave us alone.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 14, 2011, 08:57:34 PM

Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 14, 2011, 06:59:39 PM

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 14, 2011, 05:50:40 PM
Surely CAP is not the largest budget item for the USAF, BUT even all these smaller budget items add up to a significant amount of money, and unfortunately even "effectiveness" may not protect programs from cuts.

Our funding has no impact on Air Force funding.  Cutting CAP's 30 million doesn't mean that the Air Force can buy another F-16, or hire 100 contractors. We are a completely separate cost center and our grant is only overseen by the AF to ensure that we aren't using our appropriated money incorrectly.

May I suggest you look at this particular reference:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI65-601V1.pdf (http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI65-601V1.pdf)
Pay specific attention to page 134 Section 7E, "CAP & CAP LO Offices"  to the Budget Guidance & Procedures Instruction (Regulation).
It looks to me that this is pretty specific regarding budget matters that the USAF is responsible for this and there's NO direct line with congress.  It's still the AF staffers that do the work on the budget.  IF there's an across the board decrease ordered than that's what will happen.
RM

The above reference states the terms of allowance for the use of our annual grant. It has nothing to do with the amount of the grant or, the budget process. That is controlled by congress. The Air Force does have a say in the process though but, it is congress which has the final say.

Support for Liason offices and the State Directors are Air Force financed. This is not part of our annual grant in any way.

Most every Squadron in CAP fails to collect uniforms from cadets that drop out of the program in the first year. It may be just urban ledgend, but the uniforms are not the cadets property until the 2nd year.  How many cadets from your Squadron dropped out of the program in th first year and didn't return the uniform to Squadron Supply?

You know...the recovery rate has nothing to do with the cost of the FCU.

Even if we recovered 100% of the issued uniforms....each new cadet is still entitled to a NEW uniform.

If we are looking to make a savings......kill the FCU.

Or maybe instead of a new uniform for each new cadet......we buy them a service coat when the make WB and a new officer's coat at Mitchell.

If the cadets have to cough up some money up front....maybe we can get some comittment out of them.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 14, 2011, 10:16:25 PM
If the cadets have to cough up some money up front....maybe we can get some commitment out of them.

This isn't an attempt to hijack the thread but to back Maj. Harris's point. $150 was quoted for one set of blues. A 12 year old kid can raise that by mowing lawns or offering to do yard work. Unless the kid has a physical handicap that precludes him from doing so, there is no excuse. Issue the BDU's/ABU's to the cadets and tell them they will have to pony up for the blues. Why is it High Schools require fees to join teams, those fees include the equipment? Again, this is not a thread hijack, but if we are looking at why assets are not being returned or used properly, we have to be honest about it.

Respectfully,

A former Mitchell Cadet

Quote from: FARRIER on May 14, 2011, 10:43:42 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 14, 2011, 10:16:25 PM
If the cadets have to cough up some money up front....maybe we can get some commitment out of them.

This isn't an attempt to hijack the thread but to back Maj. Harris's point. $150 was quoted for one set of blues. A 12 year old kid can raise that by mowing lawns or offering to do yard work. Unless the kid has a physical handicap that precludes him from doing so, there is no excuse. Issue the BDU's/ABU's to the cadets and tell them they will have to pony up for the blues. Why is it High Schools require fees to join teams, those fees include the equipment? Again, this is not a thread hijack, but if we are looking at why assets are not being returned or used properly, we have to be honest about it.

Respectfully,

A former Mitchell Cadet

The actual cost of what the Cadets get, which is on the FCU report is much less than $150 dollars.  They no longer get shoes or boots just a shirt, a belt, a cap and trousers.  No insignia, no service coat, no field uniforms.

On another note, at a function we did with JROTC and others, one of my (as in the unit to which I belonged) unit's officers noted how their uniforms looked somehow better.  It was no surprise,  many of our had stuff found in thrift shops and hand me downs.  The BDUs are usually some set found at the Goodwill or the removal of Army name tapes from some uncle's or father's uniform.

Fact is, JROTC and other organization get much more than we do for cadet uniforms.

AFJROTC gets shoes socks and a service coat which costs $85. The service coat costs more than the FCU that CAP cadets get. AFJROTC also gets issued the blue windbreaker.
If Squadrons would check with their local AFJROTC schools, they could get surplus at the end of the school year many sets of blues and shoes surplus. Mainly the shoes have been worn thirty times or less. Often the surplus uniforms don't get claimed by CAP and end up at DRMO.
Uniforms could be picked up by Squadrons, with an inventory sent to Group or Wing and a distribution made according to need since many Squadrons are out of a AFJROTC school area. The only problem with the surplus AFJROTC uniforms is there is a school shoulder patch normally sewn on shirts.

Quote from: BillB on May 15, 2011, 04:48:58 AM
AFJROTC gets shoes socks and a service coat which costs $85. The service coat costs more than the FCU that CAP cadets get. AFJROTC also gets issued the blue windbreaker.
If Squadrons would check with their local AFJROTC schools, they could get surplus at the end of the school year many sets of blues and shoes surplus. Mainly the shoes have been worn thirty times or less. Often the surplus uniforms don't get claimed by CAP and end up at DRMO.

Can they legally give us uniforms directly? I thought everything had to go to DRMO first before going anywhere else?

Spaceman   AFJROTC at Maxwell came out with a letter, I have a copy somewhere. that encourages the surplus uniforms to go to CAP and CAN'T be issued to other non-profit organizations. If CAP doesn't claim them, they do go to DRMO. The same policy applies to AFROTC at colleges and universities.

Quote from: BillB on May 15, 2011, 04:53:30 AM
Spaceman   AFJROTC at Maxwell came out with a letter, I have a copy somewhere. that encourages the surplus uniforms to go to CAP and CAN'T be issued to other non-profit organizations.

Good deal :).

Quote from: BillB on May 15, 2011, 04:53:30 AM
Spaceman   AFJROTC at Maxwell came out with a letter, I have a copy somewhere. that encourages the surplus uniforms to go to CAP and CAN'T be issued to other non-profit organizations. If CAP doesn't claim them, they do go to DRMO. The same policy applies to AFROTC at colleges and universities.

Would have been nice if National had sent a copy of that letter to all CAP units too.

PHall
I believe it was sent to all Squadrons. It's dated in the 1990's, but has not been revoked or superceded and is still in effect. The original letter was sent to all AFROTC and AFJROTC units.

Correction: I just looked for the letter and it's dated 26 June 2003and it's listed as AFJROTC Policy Letter #04

finding a source of surplus uniform does not reduce the cost of the FCU.

At most it will only be off set by the number of cadets who don't fill out the request because they got a squadron issued uniform.
At my squadron that would be zero.  We make all our new cadets fill out the request as part of their initial training.....even though we issue them surplus uniforms.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2011, 05:42:31 AM
finding a source of surplus uniform does not reduce the cost of the FCU.

At most it will only be off set by the number of cadets who don't fill out the request because they got a squadron issued uniform.
At my squadron that would be zero.  We make all our new cadets fill out the request as part of their initial training.....even though we issue them surplus uniforms.

Hmm, if the AF sends a brand new uniform with a specific cadet's name on it, it would seem to me that the specific cadet SHOULD get that uniform.   Otherwise, would the AF program manager consider this as potential borderline fraud ??? At the very least is this our core values "integrity" issue :-\   BTW I'm not trying to make you/your unit as the culprits in this because I do think that it is done pretty much throughout Civil Air Patrol, IF the unit has the appropriate size uniform.

I wonder how the AF Junior ROTC program gets their uniforms issued for their program in comparison to CAP ???

RM

JROTC maintains a supply of uniforms.

They are controlled via hand receipts.

The FCU goes directly to the cadets....it does not go throught the squadron at all except for a report of who has gotten a FCU issue.
I don't know why it would be considered fraud.  No where does it say that cadets will be issued a free uniform if and only if they can't find/buy/borrow a uniform from some other source.

The problem is that we have a retention issue and we issue out XX number of uniforms out each year to people who quit.  So the question is.....in the intrest of saving money....do we not issue out any uniforms at all until we are sure they are going to stay?

So what is the impact of doing so?

1)  Ned has said that surveys show that cadets with an FCU isssue are more likely to stay.
2)  Low income cadets would have to scrape up all that much more money...i.e. less likely to join in the first place.
3)  Squadrons would have to work harder to secure sources of unifroms if they want to reduce the impact of 2 above.
4)  Less professional apprerance as more squadrons would allow too big/too small, too old, too worn out uniforms beacuse they can't find low cost alterntives to the FCU.

I am not making a stance on this issue one way or the other......I am only pointing out the pertenant issues.  I can see both sides of the issue.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2011, 06:17:11 PM
The FCU goes directly to the cadets....it does not go throught the squadron at all except for a report of who has gotten a FCU issue.
I don't know why it would be considered fraud.  No where does it say that cadets will be issued a free uniform if and only if they can't find/buy/borrow a uniform from some other source.

I'm a bit confused, you made a statement that even if the (your) unit had  CAP uniforms that fit the cadets and issued it to the cadets, all the cadet still filled out the form/computer request to get a new uniform.  SO when the new uniform comes in do all the cadet gets to keep the new uniform OR is the new uniform OR the old used uniform turned back into supply ???   Also my understanding is the new uniform is shipped to the unit not directly to the individual cadet.

Shouldn't our system mirror what the JR ROTC program does for uniforms, after all we are both under the same command ???
RM 

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 16, 2011, 03:00:48 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2011, 06:17:11 PM
The FCU goes directly to the cadets....it does not go throught the squadron at all except for a report of who has gotten a FCU issue.
I don't know why it would be considered fraud.  No where does it say that cadets will be issued a free uniform if and only if they can't find/buy/borrow a uniform from some other source.

I'm a bit confused, you made a statement that even if the (your) unit had  CAP uniforms that fit the cadets and issued it to the cadets, all the cadet still filled out the form/computer request to get a new uniform.  SO when the new uniform comes in do all the cadet gets to keep the new uniform OR is the new uniform OR the old used uniform turned back into supply ???   Also my understanding is the new uniform is shipped to the unit not directly to the individual cadet.

Shouldn't our system mirror what the JR ROTC program does for uniforms, after all we are both under the same command ???
RM

The new uniforms can be shipped to the home, or, as in our unit, to a place that will insure delivery.  Many of our cadets were frequent movers...moving as many as three times in a given year or between parents.  Thus, it was an unofficial policy for the uniform to be delivered to the school we meet at to insure delivery (especially after one cadet reported his uniform was delivered to a neighbor!!!) 

The On line module asked for a shipping address and what amounts to a "billing address" provided by whatever address was indicted online. 

The uniforms we maintain on supply...we don't want back.  You do not want to go through the PITA that JROTC goes through with their uniform inventories.

Also we are really lucky to have a place to store the uniforms....but we don't have anywhere near the space it would take to maintain a ready supply for a squadron our size.

Quote from: BillB on May 15, 2011, 05:27:09 AM
PHall
I believe it was sent to all Squadrons. It's dated in the 1990's, but has not been revoked or superceded and is still in effect. The original letter was sent to all AFROTC and AFJROTC units.

Correction: I just looked for the letter and it's dated 26 June 2003and it's listed as AFJROTC Policy Letter #04

Could you post a copy of that letter?

OK...then i am assuming this will mean that cadets can attend encampments and fly O-Flights in a tee shirt and jeans.  So much for getting promoted since the "wear my uniform properly" part of the cadet oath cannot be accomplished.

Jeders

I don't have a scanner to copy it. I'll mail a copy to CAPHistorian and he can post it. He doesn't do anything else anyway.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 03:47:35 PM
OK...then i am assuming this will mean that cadets can attend encampments and fly O-Flights in a tee shirt and jeans.  So much for getting promoted since the "wear my uniform properly" part of the cadet oath cannot be accomplished.

IF cadets can no longer receive an Air Force style uniform in their 1st year, I would venture to say the  cadet "basic" uniform of white shirt, black pants and shoes be accepted for O-Flights and other cadet activities.  If grade and ribbons are to be worn on such a "uniform", they would be instructed to wear it properly.....

BTW; are we worried about saving money or retaining cadets in the program?

FW   Cite please for that white shirt, black pants and shoes uniform. 

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Why not just make it a requirement that the uniform get issued to them at encampment...Sized and Ordered by squadrons..Delivered to encampment staff...funded by wing but reimbursed by the Air Force to make sure it's done in a timely manner.  They will be taught to wear the uniform correctly.  Most that drop out in their first year in my experience never attend encampment...but also encourages cadets to attend encampment at their earliest opportunity.  Just an Idea..I'm sure people will start picking away at the suggestion...but that's all it is.  The Current method isn't meeting someone's standards so they are looking at cutting it entirely so maybe we could brainstorm and come up with an alternative.

The base alterations shop is going to go nuts... unless you are going to set up your own hemming station.

At an encampment there is no time for cadets to go to Base Alterations shop.

SARDOC Where did you get the idea someone is looking to cutting the CFU out entirely?  another of those urban legends??

Quote from: BillB on May 16, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
FW   Cite please for that white shirt, black pants and shoes uniform.

There is nothing to cite.  It was a "uniform" we told cadets to wear before they earned their Curry back in the day.  Would we wish to make it official for the first year of a cadet's membership if a FCU wasn't available?

The problem, IMHO; is saving the few dollars in postponing the FCU till the cadet renews worth the (most likely) decrease in retention? 

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Quote from: FW on May 16, 2011, 09:03:40 PM

Quote from: BillB on May 16, 2011, 04:41:42 PM
FW   Cite please for that white shirt, black pants and shoes uniform.

There is nothing to cite.  It was a "uniform" we told cadets to wear before they earned their Curry back in the day.  Would we wish to make it official for the first year of a cadet's membership if a FCU wasn't available?

The problem, IMHO; is saving the few dollars in postponing the FCU till the cadet renews worth the (most likely) decrease in retention?

At the school we meet at students wear white or grey polo shirts.  When we first started, until USAF uniforms for available, cadets wore these shirts with BDU pants.  Yes, it was not officially a CAP uniform but it was uniform until the proper items arrive.

It is critical to have the cadets learn uniformity.  Getting them in uniform quicly is key to developing "squadron" mentality.  The move would mostly likely, in my experience, be bad for retention in that they will not "look" like cadets and this, will not "be" cadets mentally.

Alright...I Misspoke about cutting entirely, I meant cutting it for First Year Cadets.  If a Cadet is past their first year go ahead and Issue via the normal process but if they are within their first year they can get it issued at encampment.  As far as Alterations...they can get measured their  First day, Alterations done and delivered to them by Day 4.  I'm not too familiar with the activity at encampment but I could imagine that with good planning it could be done...usually it's just a pair of pant that need hemmed.  We aren't looking to have the entire uniform tailored...just the basics.

Quote from: SARDOC on May 16, 2011, 09:15:49 PM
...but if they are within their first year they can get it issued at encampment...

Just wondering, would that be a good idea? The logistical aspect of that doesn't seem really feasible if it is actually possible. I can understand if the Wing itself had a maintained stock of new(ish) Blues. And having a bunch of blues tailored (even the basic pant hemming) sounds like a lot of extra $$$.

The point is moot. Finding that much time at a summer encampment would be very difficult. At a weekend encampment, forget about it. I'm the scheduler at IL Summer Encampment and there is no time for something like this. Eclipse can probably tell you what kind of time crunch a weekend encampment has.

Since the uniform has to be approved once the cadet orders it, it should be an item of discussion with senior staff before giving the go ahead. If the cadet is active and shows signs of sticking around then approve. If they rarely show up or just don't appear to give a dang, then say no until they shape up. I personally like to get them outfitted right away so they can start fitting in. I also have a strong contract with parents about returning uniforms if they quit and a very high retention rate. It's pretty rare for me not to get uniforms back and has been no problem since I implemented the new return contact signed by the parents.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 09:08:55 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Let's cut the political BS major. I'm poor, I'm unemployed going on seven months now. I live in a poor county with an obscene unemployment level, far higher than your own (http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=state&idim=state:ST480000:ST180000&idim=county:CN181490:CN483550&tstart=631152000000&tunit=M&tlen=254&hl=en&dl=en). So no, I'm not a class warrior.

Let's look at a this objectively: The FCU cost around $60. You're still going to need to add things to it to complete it and last I checked that's going to run somewhere north of $50. If the added cost of the uniform itself will break the budget then maybe CAP is not something they should be doing in the first place.

CAP is expensive. So is pretty much everything else in the world. You pick and choose what's important to you. I've given up most of my hobbies because I can't afford them anymore and yet I'm still a member because it's important to me.

Quote from: davidsinn on May 17, 2011, 12:29:13 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 09:08:55 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Let's cut the political BS major. I'm poor, I'm unemployed going on seven months now. I live in a poor county with an obscene unemployment level, far higher than your own (http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=state&idim=state:ST480000:ST180000&idim=county:CN181490:CN483550&tstart=631152000000&tunit=M&tlen=254&hl=en&dl=en). So no, I'm not a class warrior.

Let's look at a this objectively: The FCU cost around $60. You're still going to need to add things to it to complete it and last I checked that's going to run somewhere north of $50. If the added cost of the uniform itself will break the budget then maybe CAP is not something they should be doing in the first place.

CAP is expensive. So is pretty much everything else in the world. You pick and choose what's important to you. I've given up most of my hobbies because I can't afford them anymore and yet I'm still a member because it's important to me.

Sorry, Captain, but you fail to understand what I am trying to accomplish with CAP in my area.  It's not a rich man's club and contrary to your "plight" we need options for the youth.  I am gonna use the citizenship development portion of CAP's cadet program to provide some of what is missing in our area.

I'm not gonna allow the incredulous desires of someone in a distant land to upset that because he feels his "social understanding" of the situation is superior to mine.

Why you want unnecessary obsticles in the way of CAP's cadet membership is beyond my ability to comprehend your motivations.  I can assume you want only the wealthiest people to learn to serve the "Community, State and Nation," and all others to turn to the very real other options of street life.  There they will also learn "core values" (albiet negative ones), wear uniforms and have a chance at something genuine (crime).  Now, is it not better to provide a small something to them to prevent that..or at least provide an option?

If you can't or won't understand my motives...stay out of my way.

One thing to keep in mind, CAP doesn't fund the uniforms, USAF does. It's part of the support of the CAP funding and it's specifically for cadet uniforms. CAP did change the funding formula by not including shoes to stretch the funding out for more uniforms. But in any case the funding has to be for cadet uniforms, it can't be transferred to ES missions. If a cadet drops out during the first year, the uniform is not his property and must be returned to the Squadron. But I haven't seen Squadrons making any attempt to get the uniforms returned.

My squdron is trying to get the uniforms of the cadets that left early back but theres only so much we can do...

One of my old squadrons had a major problem with cadets coming for a few months, getting BDU's issued to them from squadron supply and then leaving and using the BDU's for paintball/airsoft...

So we sent the family's certified letters in the mail, and told them they had 30 days to return corporate property. Only one family out of 5 returned the issued items. At the meeting following the 30 day window, we called the sheriff and reported the items stolen, we also sent the family's an email informing them that we had reported it stolen. All the issued gear and uniforms were waiting the squadrons door the next day...

There is plenty CAP can do, just must have the drive to do it...

Quote from: NCRblues on May 17, 2011, 02:07:42 AM
One of my old squadrons had a major problem with cadets coming for a few months, getting BDU's issued to them from squadron supply and then leaving and using the BDU's for paintball/airsoft...

So we sent the family's certified letters in the mail, and told them they had 30 days to return corporate property. Only one family out of 5 returned the issued items. At the meeting following the 30 day window, we called the sheriff and reported the items stolen, we also sent the family's an email informing them that we had reported it stolen. All the issued gear and uniforms were waiting the squadrons door the next day...

There is plenty CAP can do, just must have the drive to do it...

Must have been great for Public Affairs... ;)

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 17, 2011, 02:11:35 AM

Quote from: NCRblues on May 17, 2011, 02:07:42 AM
One of my old squadrons had a major problem with cadets coming for a few months, getting BDU's issued to them from squadron supply and then leaving and using the BDU's for paintball/airsoft...

So we sent the family's certified letters in the mail, and told them they had 30 days to return corporate property. Only one family out of 5 returned the issued items. At the meeting following the 30 day window, we called the sheriff and reported the items stolen, we also sent the family's an email informing them that we had reported it stolen. All the issued gear and uniforms were waiting the squadrons door the next day...

There is plenty CAP can do, just must have the drive to do it...

Must have been great for Public Affairs... ;)

Actually, it turned out really well...the local sheriff found out about CAP, and started to refer kids who needed a little guidance and discipline... our squadron grew by about 25 members after that encounter, plus we have not had a problem since...

and one of the family's who returned the uniforms informed us, that her kid had told her that "the squadron commander told us we could keep them"..... So we found out that the parents were not involved as much as we wanted and we also corrected that....

Quote from: BillB on May 17, 2011, 01:37:27 AM
One thing to keep in mind, CAP doesn't fund the uniforms, USAF does. It's part of the support of the CAP funding and it's specifically for cadet uniforms. CAP did change the funding formula by not including shoes to stretch the funding out for more uniforms. But in any case the funding has to be for cadet uniforms, it can't be transferred to ES missions. If a cadet drops out during the first year, the uniform is not his property and must be returned to the Squadron. But I haven't seen Squadrons making any attempt to get the uniforms returned.

Bill, That is not quite correct.  The funding is part of the "O&M" part of our annual grant.  The line item is determined by NHQ, NEC and the BoG.  The amount has been changed a few times over the years.  The Air Force allows the expense however, the amount spent for cadet uniforms is determined by CAP.  Hence the NEC's thought on changing the budget line item. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 09:08:55 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

Quote from: FARRIER on May 17, 2011, 04:34:10 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 09:08:55 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

So, your saying if I take the uniforms back and make the pay for them they will love CAP more?   Or that every cadet will find work when their parents can't?  Can't take those risks...better to just get them a uniform and actually concentrate on them being cadets instead of under aged laborers in a depressed market during the GREAT RECESSION.

Must be nice to interpret the needs of our unit from a keyboard miles away.  Have it your way...and I do it mine. 

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, I'll take it under advisement.

If getting $150 for a set of uniforms is a problem....how do you send your cadets to encampment?

I will grant you that getting at risk kids into CAP is a good thing....but on the other hand.....keeping a program that is loosing money open because it helps one slice of the membership....may not be a good thing.

Also....don't think any of this brain storming is an attempt to stop your aim with this program.

Maybe we just need to focus our resources and networking to find a source of free or very cheap uniforms for your cadets.

One of the things going to ABUs will help with.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 17, 2011, 04:54:14 AM

Quote from: FARRIER on May 17, 2011, 04:34:10 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 09:08:55 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

So, your saying if I take the uniforms back and make the pay for them they will love CAP more?   Or that every cadet will find work when their parents can't?  Can't take those risks...better to just get them a uniform and actually concentrate on them being cadets instead of under aged laborers in a depressed market during the GREAT RECESSION.

Must be nice to interpret the needs of our unit from a keyboard miles away.  Have it your way...and I do it mine. 

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, I'll take it under advisement.

Joe, if you can't comprehend it, I won't waste any more of my time explaining it to you.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 17, 2011, 05:19:53 AM
If getting $150 for a set of uniforms is a problem....how do you send your cadets to encampment?

I would rather they save the money for the activities than have to spend it on a uniform by simply being in the program.  I would also save the sponsorship for the greater things.

QuoteI will grant you that getting at risk kids into CAP is a good thing....but on the other hand.....keeping a program that is loosing money open because it helps one slice of the membership....may not be a good thing.

Let's not put the cart before the horse, there is no program without cadets.  The more cadets are actually helped, the more worth it has.  If all we have are program from those with means, there is an inherentcy issue present.  What is the purpose of a cadet program if not to provide opportunities?  Saying "sorry, your too poor" is problematic.

QuoteAlso....don't think any of this brain storming is an attempt to stop your aim with this program.

I will grant you that, but you are well aware of my propensity to call for limited/minimal costs.  Providing the uniform, and not even all of it, still is nothing compared to other cadet programs.  How much is spent by JROTC?  ACA cadets?

QuoteMaybe we just need to focus our resources and networking to find a source of free or very cheap uniforms for your cadets.

That would be most helpful.  Old Lincoln County used to sell reasonable uniforms at a good cost.  It disappeared.  It was from a place like that that I was able to obtain lots of things.

QuoteOne of the things going to ABUs will help with.

Agreed, but that only solves the field uniform issue.

Quote from: FARRIER on May 17, 2011, 05:35:15 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 17, 2011, 04:54:14 AM

Quote from: FARRIER on May 17, 2011, 04:34:10 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 16, 2011, 09:08:55 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on May 16, 2011, 04:48:08 PM
Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

So, your saying if I take the uniforms back and make the pay for them they will love CAP more?   Or that every cadet will find work when their parents can't?  Can't take those risks...better to just get them a uniform and actually concentrate on them being cadets instead of under aged laborers in a depressed market during the GREAT RECESSION.

Must be nice to interpret the needs of our unit from a keyboard miles away.  Have it your way...and I do it mine. 

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, I'll take it under advisement.

Joe, if you can't comprehend it, I won't waste any more of my time explaining it to you.

Your opinion is noted, that is all I have to say about that.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 17, 2011, 05:39:18 AMLet's not put the cart before the horse, there is no program without cadets.  The more cadets are actually helped, the more worth it has.  If all we have are program from those with means, there is an inherentcy issue present.  What is the purpose of a cadet program if not to provide opportunities?  Saying "sorry, your too poor" is problematic.

I understand where you are comming from....but there is still a bottom line.  $150 for uniforms is too much?  $200 for encampment?  $35 for membership dues?

Why not just make CAP free all around?  I know that I hate the slippery slope argument....but this program costs money.  I understand your goal to hold down costs....but the thought expercise for today is what impact would we have if we stopped or shifted when the FCU is issued.   Trying to say that this is some sort of class snobbery is not helping.

QuoteI will grant you that, but you are well aware of my propensity to call for limited/minimal costs.  Providing the uniform, and not even all of it, still is nothing compared to other cadet programs.  How much is spent by JROTC?  ACA cadets?

Don't know about ACA....but JROTC it paid for by the USAF and the School District.  Let's look at say the Boy Scouts?  No one gives them free uniforms.

QuoteThat would be most helpful.  Old Lincoln County used to sell reasonable uniforms at a good cost.  It disappeared.  It was from a place like that that I was able to obtain lots of things.

Well all USAF bases have an Airman's Attic and that is where we get all our surplus uniforms.  TXWG has several bases....it just takes a little leg work and truck and you can get more uniforms then you can handle.

Quote

QuoteOne of the things going to ABUs will help with.

Agreed, but that only solves the field uniform issue.

You get the Blues from the same place you would get the ABUs.

Boy Scouts are not a viable comparison, they operate stores in their various areas (reducing shipping costs to individuals for merit badges and the like) and make uniforms generally available and reasonably priced ( I visited one such place in Corpus Christi late last year.  If I had a Vanguard within 1 1/2 I too could get uniforms from there).  Additionally, The Courts often have sponsorship via churches that can pay for lots of the uniforms or even off set the matter if they desire...and many do.

I should point out that my ire on this subject came from a post calling my position de facto  blasphemy.  The smack of class warfare was evident.  Make CAP too expensive for the poor to attend, it keeps "them" out.  That was followed by referring to CAP as a mere hobby.  Disgusting.  CAP is a service organization with a true mandate from the Federal Government. 

I'm willing to stand down on that point provided y'all are ready to see cadet membership drop.  The rich don't need CAP...the poor do need the options.

They begin their service in CAP with $31 that goes off into the CAP aether. 

The thought exercise is one that sees your position challenged as well as mine.  I present the impact at the squadron level for more than just our unit.  Its easy to present this as a cost cutting measure from a desk at National...'tis another matter to stress already strapped squadrons. 

No one has addressed the issue seriously of what to do with those cadets in their first year that might not have a uniform because some genius wants to divert cadet funds for possible senior side
"pet projects" and the like.  Currently National provides very little to any given unit to accomplish their mission financially, now you people want to take away what little bit helps.

I would suggest the better "mental exercise" would be how to generate mechanisms to keep the small tickle of uniform flowing. 

Major Carrales, it seems every post you've replied to in this thread has been filled with rhetoric about class warfare and woes of the finacial state of your unit and the area it operates in. These are hard economic times, for all of us. I'm personally surviving paramedic school on around a $100-$150 a week working a tour and teaching in addition to my full time rotations (with the help of my parents.)

Everytime someone has offered a solution to your apparent supply problem, or a suggestion, you go back to your original "my area is too poor for that" statement. The fact of the matter is CAP costs money. However noble your intentions are, CAP costs money. There have been plenty of stories here and CS of squadrons being able to issue entire sets of BDUs, service uniforms, gear and the like because of a little effort and some well placed letters and phone calls.

Tough times mean tough decisions.  Leaders must make the choices to keep CAP going.  And, with a budget that is about $300k less than needed, where do you make the cuts?  Do you delay giving cadets a uniform or do you lay off another employee at NHQ?.  Staff salaries have already been frozen for two years.  Or, maybe we cut O'Flights?  Training?   Cut the size of the aircraft fleet? 

Next year, we may need to deal with even less.  So?

Quote from: JThemann on May 17, 2011, 10:00:06 AM
Major Carrales, it seems every post you've replied to in this thread has been filled with rhetoric about class warfare and woes of the finacial state of your unit and the area it operates in. These are hard economic times, for all of us. I'm personally surviving paramedic school on around a $100-$150 a week working a tour and teaching in addition to my full time rotations (with the help of my parents.)

Everytime someone has offered a solution to your apparent supply problem, or a suggestion, you go back to your original "my area is too poor for that" statement. The fact of the matter is CAP costs money. However noble your intentions are, CAP costs money. There have been plenty of stories here and CS of squadrons being able to issue entire sets of BDUs, service uniforms, gear and the like because of a little effort and some well placed letters and phone calls.

The point is to keep costs down to the membership so that money can be applied to training, ES resources and Cadet activities.  I can't see why the member's pocketbook is OK to be an "endless" pit of money, yet the organization can't fight to keep a program that is one of few providing new uniforms to cadets.  Either the Cadet Program has value, warranting the investment...or it does not.  They've wanted us to be more with less now they want us to prepare to do even more with NOTHING.

I may give an inaccurate description of my situation, but so many of you clamor about retention and falling numbers, yet you support these measures that will only worsen that problem. 

One thing this is true and might offer a solution to this is to have WING coordinate these uniforms to make up for the deficit.  If National is no longer going to provide the Free Cadet Uniform...then maybe Wing should stockpile and or collect an inventory.

Texas Wing is large, its considerable effort to get to San Antonio and other places with a USAF presense.  I would not mind turning my stockpile of uniforms over to Wing, and those of others, for storage and catalog if it meant I could send a uniform request and get uniforms when needed.

A Wing uniform depot under the stewardship of a unit or group might do this.

Now, lets see how many will take issue with my solution.  I'm sure it would be many...

No issue at .

It is what we do here at Nellis.

We tap the local sources for uniforms and store them.  Any unit that wants some or need some is free to come by and get them.  We have even shipped boxes of them to other units on request.

The gist of the OP is that the USAF who pays for the FCU is looking to reduce costs.....so that they can spend more on ES and CP stuff.

So how that will affect YOUR operations is imporantant.  But you were the one who took the posting out of context and turned this into some sort of class thing.

We got poor cadets here in Las Vegas too.  We have subsidised encampment, insignia and ES gear.  We have a store room full of uniforms.  If the FCU went away.....it would not affect my squadron all that much.  There are a lot of things that CAP at the national and wing level could do to offset/replace the FCU and setting up wing level uniform supplies is one possiblity.

WIWAC in the MIWG we didn't get free uniforms and I don't recall my parents buying them. I do remember wing HQ had a decent supply room filled with surplus given from the AF. From there it made its way to the squadron either by driving there and picking things up or someone bringing them back to the squadron for issue. It wasn't until I was older that I was able to drive myself to Selfridge ANGB and find ecstasy in the glory of a uniform supply store. It gave "Toys 'R Us" and whole new meaning.

Sure, our money is limited and the CAP budget is becoming ever tighter.

But I'd like to know what dollar figure the leaders are trying to cut from cadet programs. Then, I'd like to know what options are available to meet that goal.

Personally I'd rather see IACE and COS cut before FCUs or flying.  Nothing against cadet officers, but new cadets should receive priority for funding.

Quote from: magoo on May 17, 2011, 07:38:26 PM
Sure, our money is limited and the CAP budget is becoming ever tighter.

Personally I'd rather see IACE and COS cut before FCUs or flying.  Nothing against cadet officers, but new cadets should receive priority for funding.

Interesting choice.  Why do you think it is better to spend our money on new cadets rather than on cadets who have shown long term interest and participation?

Quote from: FW on May 17, 2011, 08:20:08 PM

Quote from: magoo on May 17, 2011, 07:38:26 PM
Sure, our money is limited and the CAP budget is becoming ever tighter.

Personally I'd rather see IACE and COS cut before FCUs or flying.  Nothing against cadet officers, but new cadets should receive priority for funding.

Interesting choice.  Why do you think it is better to spend our money on new cadets rather than on cadets who have shown long term interest and participation?

Simply because if you don't invest money, time, effort, focus, etc., in new cadets, you won't produce highly-committed and highly-successful cadet officers down the road.

Quote from: magoo on May 17, 2011, 09:31:49 PM

Quote from: FW on May 17, 2011, 08:20:08 PM

Quote from: magoo on May 17, 2011, 07:38:26 PM
Sure, our money is limited and the CAP budget is becoming ever tighter.

Personally I'd rather see IACE and COS cut before FCUs or flying.  Nothing against cadet officers, but new cadets should receive priority for funding.

Interesting choice.  Why do you think it is better to spend our money on new cadets rather than on cadets who have shown long term interest and participation?

Simply because if you don't invest money, time, effort, focus, etc., in new cadets, you won't produce highly-committed and highly-successful cadet officers down the road.

Well said...we can go out into the community and ask for sponsorships for cadet going overseas and for flight academy, but asking for money for what is looked on by outsiders as a most "basic" need (I have had people ask cadets who would do odd jobs why they were not in uniform, most say its against the regulations...imagine what they might think of the USAF Aux and the motives of the cadets if they said "I need this money for my uniform?")

Simply put, I think the uniform is expected of anyone calling themselves "cadet."  Add that to my other motives and you can get a clear image of where I'm coming from.

Sparky, that's an answer I can live with.  An Excellent responce.

Quote from: FW on May 18, 2011, 01:40:44 AM
Sparky, that's an answer I can live with.  An Excellent responce.

Thank you, Sir.  As you might tell, I am quite passionate about this issue on many fronts.

Quote from: magoo on May 17, 2011, 09:31:49 PM

Quote from: FW on May 17, 2011, 08:20:08 PM

Quote from: magoo on May 17, 2011, 07:38:26 PM
Sure, our money is limited and the CAP budget is becoming ever tighter.

Personally I'd rather see IACE and COS cut before FCUs or flying.  Nothing against cadet officers, but new cadets should receive priority for funding.

Interesting choice.  Why do you think it is better to spend our money on new cadets rather than on cadets who have shown long term interest and participation?

Simply because if you don't invest money, time, effort, focus, etc., in new cadets, you won't produce highly-committed and highly-successful cadet officers down the road.

Statistically, we don't have as big a recruiting problem as we do a retention problem. Fifty percent of the new cadets we recruit every yeardon't stick around for a second year. If we could retain just 10% of that attrition, the cadet ranks would increase every year.

Dave
This is where an exit interview is needed to discover why the cadet didn't stick around. Is is poor cadet leadership? Lack of activities? The reasons could be something that could be fixed by Senior Staff. At a cost of less than 75 cents for a letter to the cadet with a return address preprinted asking questions for the cadet to answer might bring an answer. Let the cadet know their answers would be anonymous.

Quote from: BillB on May 18, 2011, 08:35:06 AM
Dave
This is where an exit interview is needed to discover why the cadet didn't stick around. Is is poor cadet leadership? Lack of activities? The reasons could be something that could be fixed by Senior Staff. At a cost of less than 75 cents for a letter to the cadet with a return address preprinted asking questions for the cadet to answer might bring an answer. Let the cadet know their answers would be anonymous.

Bill, that is a great idea, but the execution usually goes in the tank very quickly. My success rate in my last cadet unit was abysmal. I couldn't even get decent answers through cadets that were still in the unit after their friends left. Most of the answers I did manage to get were of the, "It's just not my thing," nature. Guess there's not much you can do about that. They joined as a social thing,and it turned out differently from what they expected.

Quote from: BillB on May 18, 2011, 08:35:06 AM
Dave
This is where an exit interview is needed to discover why the cadet didn't stick around. Is is poor cadet leadership? Lack of activities? The reasons could be something that could be fixed by Senior Staff. At a cost of less than 75 cents for a letter to the cadet with a return address preprinted asking questions for the cadet to answer might bring an answer. Let the cadet know their answers would be anonymous.

Most cadets that leave leave our unit on good terms, the reasons for not renewing are as follows:

1) Getting too busy in High School, more activities push CAP out of the way unless CAP is part of the High School
2) Joined to "try it out for a year," was really active, had a good time, but its not for them
3) Moved away to another town where it was difficult to get to the meetings, or where there was no unit

Solutions...
1) integrate CAP into school systems at Middle School and High School levels
2) don't be so aggressive on getting "people to join to try it out" and focus on long time cadets
3) develop CAP Units in more locations.

Quote from: BillB on May 18, 2011, 08:35:06 AM
Dave
This is where an exit interview is needed to discover why the cadet didn't stick around. Is is poor cadet leadership? Lack of activities? The reasons could be something that could be fixed by Senior Staff. At a cost of less than 75 cents for a letter to the cadet with a return address preprinted asking questions for the cadet to answer might bring an answer. Let the cadet know their answers would be anonymous.

Bill,

They (CAPNHQ) conduct exit interviews already.  Leading reasons:

1) Not enough activities
2) No flying
3) Poor leadership at the local level
4) Boring squadron meetings

Addressing item #3 tends to fix numers 1,2, and 4.

However, over the last 5 years or so, the cadet ranks have risen (14%, IIRC).

Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 18, 2011, 03:57:03 PM
1) Not enough activities

Thsi can be solved locally with local funds and action if squadron commanders are willing to go some leg work.  There are loads of local activities that a squadron can do that can be fun.  This could be anything using ES to do training activities (instead of a boring meeting about, lets SAY, UDF FAM/PREPS, camp out at a local County/Munifipcal airport and do the training hand's on.  As the cadets to provide some minor funds for food (i.e. $8) take the collection and show them camp cooking (with permission from the airport of course)

Offer activities to local civic groups and make then worthwhile fellowship activities.  Attending Airport Fly-ins and conducting presentations to small children (cadet led with Senior Supervision).

There are lots of activities that can take place on the cheap.  I would rather funds go to that and to having to buy uniforms.

Quote2) No flying

Considering there are only 5 powered O-flights, weather issues and a limited number of aircraft, tote flying as a rare and valuable thing.  If you portray CAP as a "flying squadron" with regular flying as part of the curriculum, a cadet has been "led down a primrose path."  Activities can be set up, flight simulators and the like, where flying can be similated.

Maybe we need a curriculum that includes the O-Flights.  I see a disconnect between Module 1 of Aerospace and the flights.  Maybe we can organize them as a "consolidated mission."  The O-Flights as a highlight to the AE portion of Cadet advancement instead of an orphan curriculum.  Current O-Flight program missions could be altered to fit such a model.  Maybe some incentive to Senior Squadrons to set up an O-Flight schedule.  It could also be a primer to the Flight Academy.

Quote3) Poor leadership at the local level

You can only assign leaders from avaiable people.  How many people command squadrons by de fault.  Or how many Cadet Programs are commanded by a flyer that sees it as a necessary evil?  How many people are of the mindset that there is some magical POWER to be had from political machinations?  Or parents to become commanders for the benefit of their child to the apathy or determent of others?

Addressing these issues is a matter of not easily legilsated.  Could a Group level Cadet Programs officer even be able to address any of these issues...much less National?  Solutions needed here. 

Quote4) Boring squadron meetings

See number 1.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 05:47:49 PM
How many people command squadrons by de fault.  Or how many Cadet Programs are commanded by a flyer that sees it as a necessary evil?  How many people are of the mindset that there is some magical POWER to be had from political machinations?  Or parents to become commanders for the benefit of their child to the apathy or determent of others?

100% of the wrong people.

And in those cases it is a failing of higher HQ when those poor commanders are not removed.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 05:51:03 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 05:47:49 PM
How many people command squadrons by de fault.  Or how many Cadet Programs are commanded by a flyer that sees it as a necessary evil?  How many people are of the mindset that there is some magical POWER to be had from political machinations?  Or parents to become commanders for the benefit of their child to the apathy or determent of others?

100% of the wrong people.

And in those cases it is a failing of higher HQ when those poor commanders are not removed.

Agreed, but who do you replace them with?  Is a GROUP of WING Staffer going to drive over 100 miles to command that squadron?  Or Fold the squadron?  Solutions are needed for that...but what?

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 05:55:48 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 05:51:03 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 05:47:49 PM
How many people command squadrons by de fault.  Or how many Cadet Programs are commanded by a flyer that sees it as a necessary evil?  How many people are of the mindset that there is some magical POWER to be had from political machinations?  Or parents to become commanders for the benefit of their child to the apathy or determent of others?

100% of the wrong people.

And in those cases it is a failing of higher HQ when those poor commanders are not removed.

Agreed, but who do you replace them with?  Is a GROUP of WING Staffer going to drive over 100 miles to command that squadron?  Or Fold the squadron?  Solutions are needed for that...but what?

Having the wrong CC is probably just as bad as having no CC, and folding should always be on the table.  The fact that people
view the continued existence of a unit as sacrosanct is part of the problem.  If it takes someone from higher HQ to intervene for a while,
that is part of their role - not to run the unit, but to train up the new guys.

A huge part of the problem is that we continue to allow commanders to pick and choose what they want to do instead of
requiring the full mission, especially in composite units (which I continue to argue should be the only charters allowed).
Composite units with no senior program to speak of "suddenly" find themselves with no seniors when all the parents move on,
etc.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 05:58:32 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 05:55:48 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 05:51:03 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 05:47:49 PM
How many people command squadrons by de fault.  Or how many Cadet Programs are commanded by a flyer that sees it as a necessary evil?  How many people are of the mindset that there is some magical POWER to be had from political machinations?  Or parents to become commanders for the benefit of their child to the apathy or determent of others?

100% of the wrong people.

And in those cases it is a failing of higher HQ when those poor commanders are not removed.

Agreed, but who do you replace them with?  Is a GROUP of WING Staffer going to drive over 100 miles to command that squadron?  Or Fold the squadron?  Solutions are needed for that...but what?

Having the wrong CC is probably just as bad as having no CC, and folding should always be on the table.

And that helps with retention how?  Folding unit should come from the lack of individuals when a unit fall in strength to like 5 people...not because of lack of leadership.

If something happened to me and the few building the unit in Kingsville, there would be 25 highly instested cadets there with no leader.  Killing it off for that reason is a [darn]able thing. 

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 06:01:09 PMAnd that helps with retention how?  Folding unit should come from the lack of individuals when a unit fall in strength to like 5 people...not because of lack of leadership.

Proper leadership sees recruiting as a key part of the mission, and further, I have personally never seen a unit running a proper, full program,
that had recruiting or retention issues.

The problem is commanders who get overwhelmed, focus on too few things, people start quitting.

Let me suggest a wild concept...the idea that there will always ne 4-10% attrition no matter what a person does.  There will always be that percentage of people that move, have some conflict or the like.  Despite any measure taken.

I was reading at on of the other forums were a cadet joined just to fly and had no intention of "playing ball" with the officers and cadets of the unit.  Even bragged about causing havoc via major disrespect to a Cadet Officer and Squadron Commander; then reported the reactions to that as evidence of how warped CAP leadership was.

How can that person be counted against us?

Can that be accepted?  That there are just those what leave?  By the way, what is our attrition rate?

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 18, 2011, 06:10:42 PM
Let me suggest a wild concept...the idea that there will always ne 4-10% attrition no matter what a person does.  There will always be that percentage of people that move, have some conflict or the like.  Despite any measure taken.

I was reading at on of the other forums were a cadet joined just to fly and had no intention of "playing ball" with the officers and cadets of the unit.  Even bragged about causing havoc via major disrespect to a Cadet Officer and Squadron Commander; then reported the reactions to that as evidence of how warped CAP leadership was.

How can that person be counted against us?

Can that be accepted?  That there are just those what leave?  By the way, what is our attrition rate?

I'm not sure, in the current set up, that CAP can get accurate attrition rates...

take for example a recent squadron i visited. They have 28 people rostered in a composite squadron. On a really good day 10 show up for anything. The rest are on the roster, they show up once a year to wing conference, or just pay the dues. My point is, how do we even know who is really here anymore? Squadrons/groups/wing are so scared of names dropping off the roster, they will keep them on it, even though its an empty name/shirt....

We (CAP as a whole, not just certain groups or squadrons) would have to revise the way we deal with no-shows, or one timers....

The job one is raise the expectation for anyone who wants to carry an "active" ID card in their wallet.

Job two is enforce the expectations.

Job three is stop handing out our "treats" before people work to earn them.

As an example, I was somewhat taken aback the other day to realize that cadets do not have to be even Curry for O-Rides, which seems
like a fair risk in the right circumstances.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
The job one is raise the expectation for anyone who wants to carry an "active" ID card in their wallet.

Job two is enforce the expectations.

Job three is stop handing out our "treats" before people work to earn them.

As an example, I was somewhat taken aback the other day to realize that cadets do not have to be even Curry for O-Rides, which seems
like a fair risk in the right circumstances.

Get this...in a neighboring area I am told the Boy Scout Officials encouraged scouts to join CAP for a year for the purpose of getting an aviation merit badge.  They served their year, as great cadets, and then left.

Insidious?  Not really, they sign on for one year, serve well in both and leave when their "tour" ends.  They get to "do a good turn" for CAP and meet their obligations many time making it to NCO grades.

Now I offer the option of Cadet/Scouts to work on that to better them.

What do we do about people who are in it for the short term?

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 19, 2011, 02:49:42 AM
What do we do about people who are in it for the short term?

Nothing, and there is nothing we can or should do, except work and enforce our program and policies.
A plethora of active, involved cadets, cycling in for a year or so will offer plenty for everyone involved, but if we allow cadets to
join, get a uniform, drain the system for whatever they can, and then leave without enforcing progression and participation
on their part, we've failed on a number of levels.

Odds are a fully-functional unit will not be left easily by any cadet fully participating.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 19, 2011, 02:49:42 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
The job one is raise the expectation for anyone who wants to carry an "active" ID card in their wallet.

Job two is enforce the expectations.

Job three is stop handing out our "treats" before people work to earn them.

As an example, I was somewhat taken aback the other day to realize that cadets do not have to be even Curry for O-Rides, which seems
like a fair risk in the right circumstances.

Get this...in a neighboring area I am told the Boy Scout Officials encouraged scouts to join CAP for a year for the purpose of getting an aviation merit badge.  They served their year, as great cadets, and then left.

Insidious?  Not really, they sign on for one year, serve well in both and leave when their "tour" ends.  They get to "do a good turn" for CAP and meet their obligations many time making it to NCO grades.

Now I offer the option of Cadet/Scouts to work on that to better them.

What do we do about people who are in it for the short term?

wait, they join for "one year" and then leave?

WOW, what a waste of time and money and energy.... i would never allow that in a unit i command.... what a joke, they out right tell you they will only be around for the year?

If they told me that, i would say, "thank you for coming, have a nice day" and walk them to the door....

Quote from: NCRblues on May 19, 2011, 03:16:02 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 19, 2011, 02:49:42 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
The job one is raise the expectation for anyone who wants to carry an "active" ID card in their wallet.

Job two is enforce the expectations.

Job three is stop handing out our "treats" before people work to earn them.

As an example, I was somewhat taken aback the other day to realize that cadets do not have to be even Curry for O-Rides, which seems
like a fair risk in the right circumstances.

Get this...in a neighboring area I am told the Boy Scout Officials encouraged scouts to join CAP for a year for the purpose of getting an aviation merit badge.  They served their year, as great cadets, and then left.

Insidious?  Not really, they sign on for one year, serve well in both and leave when their "tour" ends.  They get to "do a good turn" for CAP and meet their obligations many time making it to NCO grades.

Now I offer the option of Cadet/Scouts to work on that to better them.

What do we do about people who are in it for the short term?

wait, they join for "one year" and then leave?

WOW, what a waste of time and money and energy.... i would never allow that in a unit i command.... what a joke, they out right tell you they will only be around for the year?

If they told me that, i would say, "thank you for coming, have a nice day" and walk them to the door....

This did not happen to me, I was recalled this by a person in the Boy Scouts. 

If it's a lie, it is an elaborate one.

However, I am watching Mythbusters, so lets see if it stands up knowing that 1) a Scout is tustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent and 2) a cadet pledges to serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

There is no conflict if the cadet lives up to the oath for the time of membership.

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 19, 2011, 03:22:07 AM

Quote from: NCRblues on May 19, 2011, 03:16:02 AM

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 19, 2011, 02:49:42 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
The job one is raise the expectation for anyone who wants to carry an "active" ID card in their wallet.

Job two is enforce the expectations.

Job three is stop handing out our "treats" before people work to earn them.

As an example, I was somewhat taken aback the other day to realize that cadets do not have to be even Curry for O-Rides, which seems
like a fair risk in the right circumstances.

Get this...in a neighboring area I am told the Boy Scout Officials encouraged scouts to join CAP for a year for the purpose of getting an aviation merit badge.  They served their year, as great cadets, and then left.

Insidious?  Not really, they sign on for one year, serve well in both and leave when their "tour" ends.  They get to "do a good turn" for CAP and meet their obligations many time making it to NCO grades.

Now I offer the option of Cadet/Scouts to work on that to better them.

What do we do about people who are in it for the short term?

wait, they join for "one year" and then leave?

WOW, what a waste of time and money and energy.... i would never allow that in a unit i command.... what a joke, they out right tell you they will only be around for the year?

If they told me that, i would say, "thank you for coming, have a nice day" and walk them to the door....

This did not happen to me, I was recalled this by a person in the Boy Scouts. 

If it's a lie, it is an elaborate one.

However, I am watching Mythbusters, so lets see if it stands up knowing that 1) a Scout is tustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent and 2) a cadet pledges to serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

There is no conflict if the cadet lives up to the oath for the time of membership.

And i agree with you on that, the cadets themselves wont be bad. I have a problem with them openly saying they will only be around for one year. No matter what you do with that cadet, no matter what ES quals he gets, or grade he gets to.... it is all for nothing... wont even make Mitchell...

I feel that its just a waste of resources and money if they come in and openly say "hey, I'm only ganna be here a year to fulfill obligations to another organization"....

Quote from: NCRblues on May 19, 2011, 03:27:24 AM

I feel that its just a waste of resources and money if they come in and openly say "hey, I'm only ganna be here a year to fulfill obligations to another organization"....

Isn't that what we do with Community Service? (yikes...I actually wrote that!!!)  The fellow that serves one enlistment in the Military might have similar issues.  Are they in it as a start of a political career?  to gain some skill or training?

All that aside, if there goal was that Badge, 31 Dollars and lots of service to Community State and Nation...hummmm?

I wonder, if this does really occur, how many decide to stay?

Quote from: Major Carrales on May 19, 2011, 03:30:49 AM

Quote from: NCRblues on May 19, 2011, 03:27:24 AM

I feel that its just a waste of resources and money if they come in and openly say "hey, I'm only ganna be here a year to fulfill obligations to another organization"....

Isn't that what we do with Community Service? (yikes...I actually wrote that!!!)  The fellow that serves one enlistment in the Military might have similar issues.  Are they in it as a start of a political career?  to gain some skill or training?

All that aside, if there goal was that Badge, 31 Dollars and lots of service to Community State and Nation...hummmm?

I wonder, if this does really occur, how many decide to stay?

I don't think you can compare a one time military contractor with a one year cadet.... for someone who joins the military for one contract, they go in for 4 years... even with basic and "A" school (or tech school for us AF guys) they get 3 solid years of work out of you, not to mention more than likely one deployment....

You cant guarantee that the cadet will do anything, other than drain our coffers... maybe take O-rides, get a uniform, attend some meetings.... I know huge groups that do very little "service" to the nation ( i don't agree with it, but that's for another thread)

It COULD work out... just saying, i don't think it will....

don't hurt me for not reading all three pages before posting   ::)

When I wanted to join I had to attend three meetings before paperwork was even discussed. My squadron has a good sized supply room that is full of blues and BDU uniforms. When I joined I simply tried on a few sizes of each until I got it right. I basically got a paper bag full of uniforms and their respective accessories (hat, belt, etc...) Before I left though I had to take a checklist sheet that had every uniform item listed and initial next to each item I received and then sign a the bottom. Granted I have not quit yet (certainly thought about it) but I suspect that if I had quit within the first year or two they would have come after me wanting the items. Now that I've been in for almost 4 years I doubt they would be looking to collect though I still plan on turning my uniform stuff back in when I leave. Not like I'm going to need a spare pair of blues for college. This system seems to work really well for our squadron though I can't say if other squadrons have the same resources to run such a system.

^ Cadet, you posted very well.  If the program is modified, what you have experienced will probably be the norm for new cadets.  We will survive just fine either way.