On another thread it was brought up that there was some supposed issue with a CAP color guard that presented/posted the Colors in BDUs. I have reviewed the regulations and found no prohibition against this. My contention with that issue is that so long as the uniform is a compliant CAP uniform in good presentation there is no thing at all wrong with it.
We have been asked to present the colors many times at different activities and at our own where BDUS were the uniform of the day (CAMP OUT FLY-INS, SARex and the like) We were not an honor guard...were fielded a color guard. A respecftul display of the standards of our Organization and Nation.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 03:10:23 PMMy contention with that issue is that so long as the uniform is a compliant CAP uniform in good presentation there is no thing at all wrong with it.
The lose the belts and other accouterments of an honor guard.
There's nothing wrong with a group of cadets posting the colors, that happens all the time, but they should not be picking and choosing uniform
items like it was a menu.
^
BDUs = BDUs.
CG (typically)= Blues +/- bling.
For the record....
A color guard is a color guard.
An Honor Guard is a wing level program........with all the honor guard bling listed in 39-1.
I have no problem with color guards wearing some sort of bling on their BDUs. It is done on AD all the time.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on April 29, 2011, 05:30:55 PM
^
BDUs = BDUs.
CG (typically)= Blues +/- bling.
Typically...however, there are times here at the school where we meet when, on a meeting day, the school will ask us to present the colors (as happened at a a few football game) There was no time to send everyone home to get into blues. We just got white pistol belts I keep in anticipation of said activities in exchange for the green canteened ones, presented the colors at the game (after marching the few blocks from school to ball field) and left.
No muss, no fuss. It was, contrary to some's beliefs, professional looking.
Read well, I perfer Blues for "Blues" occasions, however, reality is the tempering agent off all plans and intents.
I don't see the problem with BDU's being worn, as long as they're worn properly (good condition being a given).
I'm a little puzzled though as to some of the thoughts expressed. The impression I get is that some people believe that only a specifically formed Color Guard duly attached to wing may post colors, i.e. you can't just field an "on the spot" team to do so. Am I correct in this impression?
I will agree that if there's going to be a standardized uniform to post the colors, it should be spelled out and "stuck to." If it's in the pub, fine, then comply with it. Uniformity needs to be spelled out, if not then there's no uniformity to comply with.
I don't think it's a bad idea to have a nice little "pinch hit" ensemble that anyone wearing BDU's can throw on. Kudos to Sparky for having this type of thing available, it shows logical forethought. But if it's done, I would hope the items would be decent quality. I dislike some of the white pistol belts I've seen that are designs dating back to Vietnam era (the ones with all those eyelet things just look cheap andway too old to me, my opinion). I just don't think some of them are very professional looking (not slamming Major Carrales on this, I don't know what kind of belts he had). Maybe a standard could be drafted and sent up. I know the honor guard content of 39-1 was essentially dropped into 39-1 without much in the way of change, a well written draft probably would be too.
I have this habit of ordering extra items when I get a few good "gigs." I keep 4 sets in soft lunch boxes (2 for "rifles" and 2 for "flags") including in each respectively, if not all used...
IN ALL BOXES
1 pair of white gloves,
1 white ascot/"bib"
1 White shoulder cord
Additonally In a each "flag box-"
1 White Lanyard with whistle
1 White Flag carrying harness
Additonally In a each "rifle box-"
1 White Pistol belt (alpha model)
I also have four Chrome Helmets that can be used if necessary.
1 US Flag on Adjusting Pole
1 CAP Flag of Adjusting Pole
1 Guidon on a non-adjusting Pole
We keep that stuff around so we can be ever vigilant in case we are asked. Many cadets have started buying their own CG equipment, but I can only count on what we have if I know we can default to the minimums.
I've also got about 10 of those lesser grade pistol belts Hawk mentioned. Those are usually used when the School wants cadets to augment some sort of activity with "guards." We issue one of the 7 drill rifles we have (we also have 6 "dummies" we made ourselves. All "cosmetic" but a request we oblige.
We sort of "built up" all this based on small purchases over time, changing out and laundering as needed. That is how we basically do everything in my area. Saving up, building...that is why I tend to be against these motions many "CAP TALK genius" types try to bring up that which would require us to spend more!!!
Sparky
Check what is authorized for a color guard.
A white shoulder cord is NOT. The cord is for winner of a Wing Drill or Color Guard Competiion
A lanyard with whistle is not authorized. That's some Hawk Bling
The white ascot is a Honor Guard item, not a color guard
Quote from: BillB on April 29, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
Sparky
Check what is authorized for a color guard.
A white shoulder cord is NOT. The cord is for winner of a Wing Drill or Color Guard Competiion
A lanyard with whistle is not authorized. That's some Hawk Bling
The white ascot is a Honor Guard item, not a color guard
As I said, not all those items are used, but they are there. We usually use the lanyards and whistle for calling cadets back from their assigned ES activities, to call wistle signals in line searchs and cadets have them to sound emergencies...since you made a comment about it on my facebook, I have since switched to the bugle. ::)
Quote from: BillB on April 29, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
Sparky
Check what is authorized for a color guard.
A white shoulder cord is NOT. The cord is for winner of a Wing Drill or Color Guard Competiion
A lanyard with whistle is not authorized. That's some Hawk Bling
The white ascot is a Honor Guard item, not a color guard
Having done both as a cadet...
CG = Blues with white cord, white ascot, sometimes a weird white helmet, white belt, white gloves.
HG = Blues with silver cord, white ascot w/patch, "officer" cover, white belt, white gloves.
HG:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5663&l=a6dcb56340&id=1669860241
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=12340&l=f4599816be&id=1669860241
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=13951&l=7eddaa2c41&id=1669860241
The only difference with CG again is the cord color, the hat and the ascot patch.
NO whistles involved for HG or CG whatsoever.
Quote from: BillB on April 29, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
Sparky
Check what is authorized for a color guard.
A white shoulder cord is NOT. The cord is for winner of a Wing Drill or Color Guard Competiion
A lanyard with whistle is not authorized. That's some Hawk Bling
The white ascot is a Honor Guard item, not a color guard
The white ascot WITH HONOR GUARD PATCH is an honor guard item. The white ascot is just a white ascot.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 29, 2011, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 03:10:23 PMMy contention with that issue is that so long as the uniform is a compliant CAP uniform in good presentation there is no thing at all wrong with it.
The lose the belts and other accouterments of an honor guard.
There's nothing wrong with a group of cadets posting the colors, that happens all the time, but they should not be picking and choosing uniform
items like it was a menu.
I'm fine with a BDU Color Guard using white pistol belts if the Flag Bearers are using white harnesses.
Sometimes the bling is not just for bling.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on April 29, 2011, 07:43:43 PM
Quote from: BillB on April 29, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
Sparky
Check what is authorized for a color guard.
A white shoulder cord is NOT. The cord is for winner of a Wing Drill or Color Guard Competiion
A lanyard with whistle is not authorized. That's some Hawk Bling
The white ascot is a Honor Guard item, not a color guard
Having done both as a cadet...
CG = Blues with white cord, white ascot, sometimes a weird white helmet, white belt, white gloves.
HG = Blues with silver cord, white ascot w/patch, "officer" cover, white belt, white gloves.
NO whistles involved for HG or CG whatsoever.
For the past 13 years, the standard practice I have seen involved white shoulder cords worn only during the presentation/parade/activity and removed at the end. We have them there and have used them on some occasion. The lanyards are there, but are rarely used for anything aside for signaling. For example, we did a presentation of the Colors at an airport fly-in and used them to signal the start of the Color Guard's part of the opening ceremony. We also tend to use bugles for that...calling assembly, attention, to the Colors and the like.
In seeing this as an issue this week, I wonder if a specific Color Guard Pamplet might be in order. The "Colors Element" discussed in the Honor Guard Program is not of the same cut as the weekly presentations...although might being of the same cloth.
Quote from: tsrup on April 29, 2011, 07:48:11 PM
Quote from: BillB on April 29, 2011, 06:49:03 PM
Sparky
Check what is authorized for a color guard.
A white shoulder cord is NOT. The cord is for winner of a Wing Drill or Color Guard Competiion
A lanyard with whistle is not authorized. That's some Hawk Bling
The white ascot is a Honor Guard item, not a color guard
The white ascot WITH HONOR GUARD PATCH is an honor guard item. The white ascot is just a white ascot.
I was gonna say that, just didn't know where to notch it in.
The problem is there ARE guidelines for what a CG is in Blues, but not BDUs. As such, putting on a white parade belt onto a field uniform...
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on April 29, 2011, 08:01:57 PM
The problem is there ARE guidelines for what a CG is in Blues, but not BDUs. As such, putting on a white parade belt onto a field uniform...
The guidelines for a
formal Color Guard are in the pubs. A "pinch hit" team is a different story. With that, you make do with what you have. I think a standard that accounts for that is a good idea.I imagine it would also show an organization that appears to be prepared for anything.
I like the gloves, ascots, and helmets, but make sure the helmets fit. Don't care for the cords, but that's a personal thing. What I'd swap cords for is some white leggings that have the same color metal hardware as the belt buckle (for which I'd suggest standardizing on silver). They have a historical, but not dated look.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 03:10:23 PM
On another thread it was brought up that there was some supposed issue with a CAP color guard that presented/posted the Colors in BDUs. I have reviewed the regulations and found no prohibition against this.
I'd be interested in the reason why BDU's are being used in lieu of the cadet issued blue summer uniform ??? Is it primarily due to weather conditions e.g. rain, cold weather ???
There seems to be a lot of pictures in the Volunteer of squadron's going to Air museums etc wearing BDU's versus a more appropriate cadet blue summer uniform.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 29, 2011, 08:37:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 03:10:23 PM
On another thread it was brought up that there was some supposed issue with a CAP color guard that presented/posted the Colors in BDUs. I have reviewed the regulations and found no prohibition against this.
I'd be interested in the reason why BDU's are being used in lieu of the cadet issued blue summer uniform ??? Is it primarily due to weather conditions e.g. rain, cold weather ???
There seems to be a lot of pictures in the Volunteer of squadron's going to Air museums etc wearing BDU's versus a more appropriate cadet blue summer uniform.
RM
Probably because of supply issues. A good amount of squadrons don't have stocks of uniforms, and those that do are usually limited in selection. And then a full blues set is pricey, so...
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 29, 2011, 09:32:27 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 29, 2011, 08:37:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 03:10:23 PM
On another thread it was brought up that there was some supposed issue with a CAP color guard that presented/posted the Colors in BDUs. I have reviewed the regulations and found no prohibition against this.
I'd be interested in the reason why BDU's are being used in lieu of the cadet issued blue summer uniform ??? Is it primarily due to weather conditions e.g. rain, cold weather ???
There seems to be a lot of pictures in the Volunteer of squadron's going to Air museums etc wearing BDU's versus a more appropriate cadet blue summer uniform.
RM
Probably because of supply issues. A good amount of squadrons don't have stocks of uniforms, and those that do are usually limited in selection. And then a full blues set is pricey, so...
Since every cadet should have a set of blues because a) they get one free when they join and b) because it is the minimum required uniform I don't see your point about supply and price issues. BDUs can be just as pricey as blues. Probably a bit more when you take patch sewing into account.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 29, 2011, 10:48:37 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 29, 2011, 09:32:27 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 29, 2011, 08:37:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 03:10:23 PM
On another thread it was brought up that there was some supposed issue with a CAP color guard that presented/posted the Colors in BDUs. I have reviewed the regulations and found no prohibition against this.
I'd be interested in the reason why BDU's are being used in lieu of the cadet issued blue summer uniform ??? Is it primarily due to weather conditions e.g. rain, cold weather ???
There seems to be a lot of pictures in the Volunteer of squadron's going to Air museums etc wearing BDU's versus a more appropriate cadet blue summer uniform.
RM
Probably because of supply issues. A good amount of squadrons don't have stocks of uniforms, and those that do are usually limited in selection. And then a full blues set is pricey, so...
Since every cadet should have a set of blues because a) they get one free when they join and b) because it is the minimum required uniform I don't see your point about supply and price issues. BDUs can be just as pricey as blues. Probably a bit more when you take patch sewing into account.
Aaaand there's the problem where the blues won't ship for some reason. I know cadets who waited over a year before their blues were sent to them
after they ordered them through eservices and made multiple attempts to re-order them.
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 29, 2011, 10:54:35 PM
Aaaand there's the problem where the blues won't ship for some reason. I know cadets who waited over a year before their blues were sent to them after they ordered them through eservices and made multiple attempts to re-order them.
Relevance? The FCU is a benefit, but should not be considered the only source of uniforms for cadets.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 29, 2011, 11:08:52 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 29, 2011, 10:54:35 PM
Aaaand there's the problem where the blues won't ship for some reason. I know cadets who waited over a year before their blues were sent to them after they ordered them through eservices and made multiple attempts to re-order them.
Relevance? The FCU is a benefit, but should not be considered the only source of uniforms for cadets.
But, the argument was that the existence of Free blues negated the need for field uniforms on color guards. Thus, it is relevant to the flow of the debate.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 11:12:40 PMBut, the argument was that the existence of Free blues negated the need for field uniforms on color guards. Thus, it is relevant to the flow of the debate.
OK, I'll buy that in terms of the discussion, but then it is simply an in correct statement. And further to the discussion, in most cases BDU's are the most appropriate uniform to where for cadets who are also, by design, kids, and tend to not be able to keep a dress uniform clean for a prolonged period of time.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 29, 2011, 11:19:48 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 11:12:40 PMBut, the argument was that the existence of Free blues negated the need for field uniforms on color guards. Thus, it is relevant to the flow of the debate.
OK, I'll buy that in terms of the discussion, but then it is simply an in correct statement. And further to the discussion, in most cases BDU's are the most appropriate uniform to where for cadets who are also, by design, kids, and tend to not be able to keep a dress uniform clean for a prolonged period of time.
what did you do with "there is no gray" Eclipse? CAPM 39-1 and the pamphlet are pretty straightforward...
Quote from: cap235629 on April 29, 2011, 11:26:12 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 29, 2011, 11:19:48 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 29, 2011, 11:12:40 PMBut, the argument was that the existence of Free blues negated the need for field uniforms on color guards. Thus, it is relevant to the flow of the debate.
OK, I'll buy that in terms of the discussion, but then it is simply an in correct statement. And further to the discussion, in most cases BDU's are the most appropriate uniform to where for cadets who are also, by design, kids, and tend to not be able to keep a dress uniform clean for a prolonged period of time.
what did you do with "there is no gray" Eclipse? CAPM 39-1 and the pamphlet are pretty straightforward...
Honestly, I kinda jumped into the pool here and don't know which direction to swim. Ignore...
In a field setting, where the UOD is BDU's, the wearing of BDU's by those posting colors is allowed. In non-field setting, parades etc, where the Blues uniform.
http://www.chandlerswatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/JointColorGuardIraq.jpg
*wear the Blues uniform. Sorry : )
However, I've seen parades where the color guard had BDU's/ABU's.
Nothing wrong with that. But as you'll see, the Parade "bells and whistles" are missing from the Field Uniform Guard. That seems to be the issue when some CAP units do it. They seem to think that because Blues call for cords/belts/ascots/gloves/etc, so do the BDUs. I'm just wondering why they don't put their ribbons on as well? Maybe it just doesn't look "cool" enough.