Question for you. In recent communications with a CAP officer, he had in his signature some acronyms I did not recognize. When I inquired as to their meaning, I received the following response:
"...check the latest version of the CAP correspondence reg for office symbols. CDS is Commander Deputy Seniors, DOS is Deputy (or Director) Operations (Emergency) Services, and DOC is Deputy (or Director) Operations Communications. I don't like the change but that is what the reg is now."
My question is, ... is any of this factually correct? I have been unable to find any coorespondence he refers to. Also, the only time I am aware that there is a "Director" position is in the CAP Incident Command system for Mission Staff.
Anybody got a take on this, one way or another? Thanks...
Yes these are correct, and they aren't actually new.
DC = Director of Communications, not Deputy Commander.
Director Level Staff Positions occur at echelons of Wing or higher.
As in:
Director of Cadet Programs
Director Of Operations
Director of Administration
To me, proper use of officer symbols shows attantion to detail and an understanding of the program.
I can't tell you home many cadets send me the name of their Cadet Commander on their encampment forms when I ask
"CC's Name". ::)
CAPR 10-1 Preparing Official Correspondence (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R010_001_A8B5F10FA5AC7.pdf) Attachment 1
Noticed this addition...
Command Chief Master Sgt.....................CCC
First Sergeant ............................................. CCF
(Cadet or Composite Squadrons only)
CCF and the restriction to Cadet or Composite Squadrons was in the old reg.
Quote from: Crash on April 01, 2011, 08:43:10 PM
My question is, ... is any of this factually correct? I have been unable to find any coorespondence he refers to. Also, the only time I am aware that there is a "Director" position is in the CAP Incident Command system for Mission Staff.
The "Director of" positions are generally limited to Wing and above staffs. So while at the Squadron and Group levels, you'll have an Emergency Services Officer, at the Wing and Region levels, you have a Director of Emergency Services.
At the wing level there are actually only seven "director" positions; aerospace education, operations, cadet programs, professional development, communications, safety and logistics. If you assign wing-level positions in e-services you'll find that many of them are listed as "directors" (such as administration and finance) but those are incorrect as they don't correlate with CAPR 20-1.
In some wings wing-level ES officers do not report to the director of operations in which case they too, would be "directors".
Quote from: Camas on April 02, 2011, 12:50:16 AM
In some wings wing-level ES officers do not report to the director of operations in which case they too, would be "directors".
Not necessarily.
A directorship is supposed to mean you are a manager of
departments, not necessarily specific people with a single function.
Quote from: Camas on April 02, 2011, 12:50:16 AM
At the wing level there are actually only seven "director" positions; aerospace education, operations, cadet programs, professional development, communications, safety and logistics. If you assign wing-level positions in e-services you'll find that many of them are listed as "directors" (such as administration and finance) but those are incorrect as they don't correlate with CAPR 20-1.
In some wings wing-level ES officers do not report to the director of operations in which case they too, would be "directors".
Well, then there are lots of other places that get it wrong...for example, PD guide CAPP227 talks about "DIRECTOR OF
INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY Applicable to Wings & Regions" on page 8.
Directors are Wing level positions. The DO (Director of Operations) has nothing to do with either ICS or NIMS. It's a management position. During an incident the Wing DO might be the IC, the AOBD, or just as MSA.
It's ALIVE!
While writing an ROS tonight, I actually
read 10-1, sometimes you learn something whether you want to or not...
Quote from: CAPR 10-1
b. Using CAP office symbols. Office symbols (see attachment 1) are shortcuts
representing the organization structure and functional responsibility. Office symbols may be
used on correspondence, e-mail, forms, etc. Major functions have two-letter symbols, e.g.,
director of operations (DO). Since basic functions report to major functions, basic functions
have three-letter (or more) symbols, e.g., emergency services officer (DOS). A basic function's
office symbol starts with the same letters as the parent function's office symbol, and adds one
more letter, e.g., emergency services training officer (DOST); assistant ES officer (DOSA).
Makes perfect sense in that context.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2012, 03:23:06 AM
It's ALIVE!
While writing an ROS tonight, I actually read 10-1, sometimes you learn something whether you want to or not...
Quote from: CAPR 10-1
b. Using CAP office symbols. Office symbols (see attachment 1) are shortcuts
representing the organization structure and functional responsibility. Office symbols may be
used on correspondence, e-mail, forms, etc. Major functions have two-letter symbols, e.g.,
director of operations (DO). Since basic functions report to major functions, basic functions
have three-letter (or more) symbols, e.g., emergency services officer (DOS). A basic function's
office symbol starts with the same letters as the parent function's office symbol, and adds one
more letter, e.g., emergency services training officer (DOST); assistant ES officer (DOSA).
Makes perfect sense in that context.
Hence the whole argument over CDC vs DCC.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 30, 2012, 10:42:58 AM
Hence the whole argument over CDC vs DCC.
Or we could all agree to use CDC when we're writing memos and letters, and DCC when we just don't want to spell/say the whole title in casual conversation or on CAPTalk.
Quote from: jeders on March 30, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 30, 2012, 10:42:58 AM
Hence the whole argument over CDC vs DCC.
Or we could all agree to use CDC when we're writing memos and letters, and DCC when we just don't want to spell/say the whole title in casual conversation or on CAPTalk.
What argument? One is correct, the other isn't.
We complain we regulations aren't clearly written. This one is very clear, but folks want to ignore it?
Quote from: EMT-83 on March 30, 2012, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: jeders on March 30, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 30, 2012, 10:42:58 AM
Hence the whole argument over CDC vs DCC.
Or we could all agree to use CDC when we're writing memos and letters, and DCC when we just don't want to spell/say the whole title in casual conversation or on CAPTalk.
What argument? One is correct, the other isn't.
We complain we regulations aren't clearly written. This one is very clear, but folks want to ignore it?
Yes, when writing formal correspondence, there is only one correct answer. When on CAPTalk and in casual conversation, if I want to call the Deputy Commander for Cadets the fizzlebot it is equally correct so long as the meaning is understood. Since DCC is a common term in CAP and is understood by many people, there is nothing incorrect about its use here.
Quote from: jeders on March 30, 2012, 03:15:25 PM
Yes, when writing formal correspondence, there is only one correct answer. When on CAPTalk and in casual conversation, if I want to call the Deputy Commander for Cadets the fizzlebot it is equally correct so long as the meaning is understood. Since DCC is a common term in CAP and is understood by many people, there is nothing incorrect about its use here.
Wrong is wrong, and like anything in CAP, the military, and "life", it's fine to be the new guy and use terminology that "sounds right", but once you know the correct answer, you should adjust and move on.
For members with a scope that stays at the unit level, DC doesn't have any other meaning they hear often, but for members with a scope beyond the
unit, the issue comes up all the time in conversation - just as people will refer to the wing CV as DC, and then you might actually not know who they are talking about.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2012, 04:05:15 PM
Wrong is wrong, and like anything in CAP, the military, and "life", it's fine to be the new guy and use terminology that "sounds right", but once you know the correct answer, you should adjust and move on.
Or maybe the person writing here can just use the words they want to use, not the words you want to regulate them to use.
Just say what is most clear. Personally, I don't find official abbreviations clear at all, but then I've only got a few years in CAP.
This is exactly the reason the ICS methodology requires the use of clear English.
Quote from: bflynn on March 30, 2012, 04:31:56 PM
Or maybe the person writing here can just use the words they want to use, not the words you want to regulate them to use.
I have seen cadets talking about their CC. To me and most SM that means the unit commander. The cadet really meant the cadet commander which should be shortened to C/CC the C/ being the standard abbreviation for cadet ranks.
If the receiving end of communication is confused on what the sending end is saying, then the sending end has failed to communicate. We have published standard terminology so we should endeavor to use it. It's that whole attention to detail thing the proponents of spit shined boots and starched, pressed BDUs use...Except this is useful.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2012, 04:05:15 PM
...anything in CAP, the military,...
As long as we are all clear that we are the CIVIL Air Patrol and not the mili...
Nevermind, I can't even finish this with a straight face! ::)
Heh - nice!
I've got a couple that aren't defined by 10-1.
I'm suggesting:
SAR Officer - DOSR
(We're combining SAR & DR into one position, bit the "R" works either way)
IC Coordinator - DOSI
We also have training staff for Air, Ground, & Base under the Emergency Services Training Officer (DOST), but
are thinking they don't need office symbols as they are ad-hoc staff mostly doing ADY, and the personnel will
ebb as the need does.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 31, 2012, 05:25:08 PM
I've got a couple that aren't defined by 10-1.
I'm suggesting:
SAR Officer - DOSR
(We're combining SAR & DR into one position, bit the "R" works either way)
IC Coordinator - DOSI
We also have training staff for Air, Ground, & Base under the Emergency Services Training Officer (DOST), but
are thinking they don't need office symbols as they are ad-hoc staff mostly doing ADY, and the personnel will
ebb as the need does.
So if the Director of Operations is coordinating the ICs are they the DOSI-DO?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on March 30, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
As long as we are all clear that we are the CIVIL Air Patrol and not the mili...
Nevermind, I can't even finish this with a straight face! ::)
:clap: :) ;) :D ;D 8) :P >:D
My question is, as someone with a Master rating in pushing papers, how did this end up in the Uniforms & Awards section? ???
Quote from: CyBorg on April 01, 2012, 06:35:32 AM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on March 30, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
As long as we are all clear that we are the CIVIL Air Patrol and not the mili...
Nevermind, I can't even finish this with a straight face! ::)
:clap: :) ;) :D ;D 8) :P >:D
My question is, as someone with a Master rating in pushing papers, how did this end up in the Uniforms & Awards section? ???
Don't ask, don't tell.
Quote from: jeders on March 30, 2012, 03:15:25 PM
Yes, when writing formal correspondence, there is only one correct answer. When on CAPTalk and in casual conversation, if I want to call the Deputy Commander for Cadets the fizzlebot it is equally correct so long as the meaning is understood. Since DCC is a common term in CAP and is understood by many people, there is nothing incorrect about its use here.
One is correct the other isn't. In Communications we have DC, DCA, DCF, DCL, DCM, DCO, DCOM, DCOR and DCT. For the 25% of the membership that is Comm types or interact a lot with comm. DCC will create a lot of misunderstanding.
We all know a Cadet or a new Senior Member who will see "DCC" here at CT and take it back to the Squadron as gospel.
Quote from: phirons on March 31, 2012, 06:12:05 PM
So if the Director of Operations is coordinating the ICs are they the DOSI-DO?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ok, now that I have cleaned off my keyboard, I can go back to reading the forum. Thanks, buddy.
Quote from: Private Investigator on April 01, 2012, 08:06:06 PM
We all know a Cadet or a new Senior Member who will see "DCC" here at CT and take it back to the Squadron as gospel.
Why, this is an unoffical site, right? Nothing here is gospel
My thoughts...at about 1:18 on this clip...
Good Morning Vietnam - Trailer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJoHqmtFcQ#)
Quote from: bflynn on April 01, 2012, 11:54:10 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on April 01, 2012, 08:06:06 PM
We all know a Cadet or a new Senior Member who will see "DCC" here at CT and take it back to the Squadron as gospel.
Why, this is an unoffical site, right? Nothing here is gospel
You need to work with Cadets more often. 8)
Quote from: Eclipse on March 30, 2012, 04:05:15 PM
Wrong is wrong, and like anything in CAP, the military, and "life", it's fine to be the new guy and use terminology that "sounds right", but once you know the correct answer, you should adjust and move on.
For members with a scope that stays at the unit level, DC doesn't have any other meaning they hear often, but for members with a scope beyond the
unit, the issue comes up all the time in conversation - just as people will refer to the wing CV as DC, and then you might actually not know who they are talking about.
Bob, if you insist on splitting legalisms, 10-1 does not mandate abbreviations in everyday conversation. That's the issue, not what the bureaucratic office symbol is in the reg. Why be so pedantic about such a meaningless topic?
Common sense can and should prevail. If you doubt that principle, someone, anyone, find me a cite in any CAP regulation that specifies the regulation is written in English, the math is base-10, and the calendar is the Gregorian. Sure, it looks that way, and common sense says it is so, but I dunno, unless it's in the reg it's not true, right?