I have checked and rechecked the regulations. Does anyone know if a CAP uniform is required while operating a COV. I know that you have to wear one while in a CAP aircraft but not sure about ground vehicles.
Thanks
JROB
I looked this up awhile ago.
According to the CAP knowledge base:
There is no specific requirement for senior members to be in uniform while driving or riding in a CAP van unless they are participating in or conducting the cadet program. Note: The wing or region may have established such a requirement.
CAP uniform wear is required by all while participating in or conducting the cadet program or flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in CAP flight activity). If cadets and seniors working with cadets are traveling in a CAP vehicle while participating in the cadet program, they normally should be in uniform. However, the regulation does allow region or wing commanders, or designees (usually group or unit commanders), to prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. In this case cadets might be authorized by a commander to ride in CAP vehicles wearing civilian clothes. For example, during a volunteer clean up day or trip to a theme park or unit picnic or other social gathering, all CAP members would likely be in civilian clothes.
^ Yep.
If you are called to go out with a Ground Team as part of an AFAM the common knowledge I hear is that you must be in a complete CAP uniform. I have heard stories of FECA claims being denied because of members wearing either an incomplete uniform or no uniform. I would like to see this confirmed. My position is that we should be in uniform.
The FECA warning is correct, the nay sayers hold it is not true, but the reality is that if you are hurt while on a mission,
there will be insurance people who's legitimate job it is to find a loophole to deny your claim. Incorrect uniform is
an easy "get" - why make their jobs easier.
I know I certainly have no intention of being the test case just to make a point that "CAP can't tell me what to do."
The "Do I have to wear a uniform while driving a COV?" Is usually asked by GOB's who can't even be bothered to
throw on a golf shirt while driving a COV.
Bottom line answer is "Yes" with cadets in the vehicle, "Not necessarily" is not a mission and no cadets.
Bluelakes13 will now disagree. ;)
Actually, you're required to be in uniform while conducting any CAP activity (not just flying and the cadet program). So, yes, you shoud be in uniform while in the van since driving the van implies you're doing so as part of a CAP activity and therefore need to be in uniform.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 01, 2011, 02:29:37 AM
Actually, you're required to be in uniform while conducting any CAP activity (not just flying and the cadet program). So, yes, you shoud be in uniform while in the van since driving the van implies you're doing so as part of a CAP activity and therefore need to be in uniform.
I'd agree to that.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 01, 2011, 02:29:37 AM
Actually, you're required to be in uniform while conducting any CAP activity (not just flying and the cadet program). So, yes, you shoud be in uniform while in the van since driving the van implies you're doing so as part of a CAP activity and therefore need to be in uniform.
You have to wear a uniform to "ANY" CAP activity??? I disagree there are some activities that do not require a uniform. Weekly Meetings and Counter Drug are the two that immediately come to mind.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 01, 2011, 02:29:37 AM
Actually, you're required to be in uniform while conducting any CAP activity (not just flying and the cadet program).
Please prove that. I tried and lost to the wing CV in a friendly competition. If I can prove it he owes me a beverage.
Quote from: SARDOC on April 01, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
You have to wear a uniform to "ANY" CAP activity??? I disagree there are some activities that do not require a uniform. Weekly Meetings and Counter Drug are the two that immediately come to mind.
You only have to wear a uniform if you want to comply with CAP regulations. CAPM 39-1, Table 1-1 (page 7). Wear of Uniforms. "Members WEAR when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions." Weekly meetings would absolutely constitute engaging in normal duties as a CAP member or attending a local CAP function. So would driving a COV.
There's an optional column available next to this line item conspicuously unchecked, but will WEAR is checked instead. That sends a pretty clear message that it's not optional.
There
are exceptions, and those are noted under the DO NOT WEAR column.
No problem. CAPM Table 1.1 The sixth box down has checked "wear uniform" next to "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions."
It was expanded from the old "cadets or flying" rule back when the current edition of 39-1 was published (though the current manual does still specifically state that uniforms need to be worn at those times).
Quote from: SARDOC on April 01, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
You have to wear a uniform to "ANY" CAP activity??? I disagree there are some activities that do not require a uniform. Weekly Meetings and Counter Drug are the two that immediately come to mind.
CD falls into the operational category
only when directed to do so by the client, otherwise they are like any other mission.
Why would you expect weekly meetings would be exempt from uniforms. Hint, they aren't.
I don't know how many times I read that same table and missed that line. Thanks.
Ok, what about this situation;
A Senior Member is asked to take Squadron 1's van to Squadron 2 (on a Thursday) so they can use it for transportation to encampment the next day (Friday). Would this Senior Member (driving the van alone) be required to wear a CAP Uniform ?
Clarification: I not asking because I hardly wear the uniform. I respect the CAP Uniform and am proud to wear it. :D
To me that falls under "normal duties as a CAP member" (which would require CAP uniform wear). I understand there's a convenience factor in your situation but the regs are the regs. And frankly even regs aside, it always looks a lot better from a public image standpoint for a member to be in proper uniform driving the marked COV than a random person in a t-shirt and jeans or something. Even if it is a routine transport.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 02:20:13 AM
Bluelakes13 will now disagree. ;)
Hey now, don't hate! ;D
I'm 50%-50% on this. Yes, when conducting the Cadet Program we have to be in uniform. But, we go out of our way to say that transport to and from an activity like Encampments, Cadet Competitions, KOR, etc are the responsibility of the members and not the activity.
Anyway, it's easy enough to through on the polo shirt, covered by my favorite Metallica jacket, :P , that it's no big deal...
Thanks for the clarification! :D
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on April 01, 2011, 03:22:03 AM
I'm 50%-50% on this. Yes, when conducting the Cadet Program we have to be in uniform. But, we go out of our way to say that transport to and from an activity like Encampments, Cadet Competitions, KOR, etc are the responsibility of the members and not the activity.
Agreed, but once you involve a COV, you're no longer just transporting, you're now on CAP time.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 02:57:25 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on April 01, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
You have to wear a uniform to "ANY" CAP activity??? I disagree there are some activities that do not require a uniform. Weekly Meetings and Counter Drug are the two that immediately come to mind.
CD falls into the operational category only when directed to do so by the client, otherwise they are like any other mission.
Why would you expect weekly meetings would be exempt from uniforms. Hint, they aren't.
I actually agree but I continuously find statements like this one I found on gocivilairpatrol.com under Adult FAQ "Do I have to Wear a Uniform?"
QuoteSenior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms. However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform. You can find purchase uniform items from Vanguard. www.civilairpatrolstore.com
I don't know how someone can serve without wearing the Uniform at some point..but there it is. Either someone at NHQ doesn't know the regs or they are being disingenuous.
Yes, the ones serving "quietly without a uniform" are, or should be, referred to as "patrons".
Just as in the military, LEA's, etc., there are times and places to be flexible on this, the expectation should be
that the majority of time members will be expected to be in a uniform.
We should stop trying to find ways to water things down and lower expectations and just work the program.
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on April 01, 2011, 03:22:03 AM
I'm 50%-50% on this. Yes, when conducting the Cadet Program we have to be in uniform. But, we go out of our way to say that transport to and from an activity like Encampments, Cadet Competitions, KOR, etc are the responsibility of the members and not the activity.
Look at it this way -- how often does someone in the Air Force perform their normal duties out of uniform?
Are we surprised that there is an error (or to be charitable, an ambiguity) on CAP's web page?
Quote from: RiverAux on April 01, 2011, 01:14:22 PM
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on April 01, 2011, 03:22:03 AM
I'm 50%-50% on this. Yes, when conducting the Cadet Program we have to be in uniform. But, we go out of our way to say that transport to and from an activity like Encampments, Cadet Competitions, KOR, etc are the responsibility of the members and not the activity.
Look at it this way -- how often does someone in the Air Force perform their normal duties out of uniform?
Are we surprised that their is an error (or to be charitable, an ambiguity) on CAP's web page?
Look at it this way - how many times does the Airman's duties take only 30 mins or an hour for the day then they're not on the AF's time?
The only uniform we need while driving a COV is a CAP operators permit, a valid drivers licence and, a current CAP membership card. However, for driving a COV while engaged in activities which require more; then do it..... ;D
Quote from: FW on April 01, 2011, 01:56:41 PM
The only uniform we need while driving a COV is a CAP operators permit, a valid drivers licence and, a current CAP membership card. However, for driving a COV while engaged in activities which require more; then do it..... ;D
If driving a CAP corporate vehicle isn't considered a "normal CAP duty" then what is. Your opinion is in direct contradiction of one of CAP's clearer regulations.
Riv, the KB explains things well. Our insurance (self) will cover the occupants of a COV as per our regulations; uniform wear or not. This is an argument which does not hold merit. As long as you are properly authorized to drive a COV, wearing the uniform is not a requirement.
However, when conducting an AFAM mission, there may be an additional requirement of being in uniform for FECA/FUTA coverage. Let's not confuse the issues, OK?
Quote from: FW on April 01, 2011, 03:23:09 PM
However, when conducting an AFAM mission, there may be an additional requirement of being in uniform for FECA/FUTA coverage. Let's not confuse the issues, OK?
No problem, but we're not the ones confused.
You cannot operate a CAP vehicle for any reason other than official business.
39-1 says you must be in a CAP uniform when on CAP business.
Glad we can agree on this.
Further, I question why anyone would even try to argue the incorrect position. Is it really that onerous to wear the uniform when on CAP time?
Actually, CAPM 39-1 states we wear the uniform when "engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1)."
Driving the van to the gas station is not considered a normal duty as a CAP member (YMMV).
Driving to a formal CAP affair in appropriate civillian attire in a COV is appropriate.
Taking some members to the local eatery for dinner during a "meeting work night" is OK.
I never said you shouldn't wear a uniform in driving a COV, I just said it isn't mandatory (see CAPR 77-1)
Now, I'm back to watching the snow fall this bright April Fools day... ::)
Fred: that isn't snow that is falling, it is excess CAP paperwork.
I received an automatic notification this morning in my email that my membership is due to expire on 28 Feb 11.
Congratulations, NHQ!!!!!!!
It amazes me how many people want to rationalize or find loopholes to not wearing a uniform. Are you ashamed of it?
There may be times technically that you might not have to. But you'll never go wrong by actually wearing it when you're actions directly relate to CAP business.
Fueling a van? Do it before or after the meeting, you should be in a uniform anyway.
Carrying people to an encampment site? Technicality aside, it'll present a far better public image if the people inside are dressed in some type of more formal appearance (and properly) than a bunch of different types of clothing.
The person that wants to show up to activities without a uniform is not showing any type of comraderie. Just being there isn't enough. "You're lucky I showed up at all" is the first thing that says you shouldn't bother renewing.
That's what I don't understand, is the "put upon" nature of people who look for any excuse not to wear the uniform.
People in the military, FD, LEA's, they wear their uniforms 24x7 and it is understandable that they'd like a break on occasion,
but we wear them, what?, maybe a few hours a month most of the time?
I just don't get it.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 04:57:48 AM
Yes, the ones serving "quietly without a uniform" are, or should be, referred to as "patrons".
Just as in the military, LEA's, etc., there are times and places to be flexible on this, the expectation should be
that the majority of time members will be expected to be in a uniform.
We should stop trying to find ways to water things down and lower expectations and just work the program.
+1
Tonight when I go home, does the uniform manual require I change into a CAP uniform before I reconcile the squadron finance ledger with our wing banker statement? It is, after all, one of my normal duties as finance officer.
Seriously, how about we try to apply a little more common sense and a little less equivocations about people making up excuses not to wear the uniform?
Quote from: FW on April 01, 2011, 03:23:09 PM
Riv, the KB explains things well. Our insurance (self) will cover the occupants of a COV as per our regulations; uniform wear or not. This is an argument which does not hold merit. As long as you are properly authorized to drive a COV, wearing the uniform is not a requirement.
However, when conducting an AFAM mission, there may be an additional requirement of being in uniform for FECA/FUTA coverage. Let's not confuse the issues, OK?
I didn't say anything at all about insurance. That is irrelevant since the regulation is perfectly clear on when you should be in uniform (just about anytime you're doing anything for CAP).
Quote from: N Harmon on April 01, 2011, 04:57:56 PM
Tonight when I go home, does the uniform manual require I change into a CAP uniform before I reconcile the squadron finance ledger with our wing banker statement? It is, after all, one of my normal duties as finance officer.
Seriously, how about we try to apply a little more common sense and a little less equivocations about people making up excuses not to wear the uniform?
The question before was related to whether a uniform was necessary to drive a CAP van to a CAP activity of some kind. If that isn't a CAP duty, I don't know what is.
No one suggested that you had to wear a CAP uniform while in your home while doing CAP work. That is common sense. Trying to argue that participating in a CAP activity by driving a CAP vehicle containing CAP members is not "normal CAP duties" is what I would call nonsense.
Quote from: N Harmon on April 01, 2011, 04:57:56 PM
Tonight when I go home, does the uniform manual require I change into a CAP uniform before I reconcile the squadron finance ledger with our wing banker statement? It is, after all, one of my normal duties as finance officer.
Are you in public or with other members representing CAP internally or externally?
Kind of a silly example.
Quote from: N Harmon on April 01, 2011, 04:57:56 PM
Tonight when I go home, does the uniform manual require I change into a CAP uniform before I reconcile the squadron finance ledger with our wing banker statement? It is, after all, one of my normal duties as finance officer.
Seriously, how about we try to apply a little more common sense and a little less equivocations about people making up excuses not to wear the uniform?
If you're not it public, or at an organized meeting (note the word "organized"), what do you think?
There are occasions when a uniform wouldn't be worn. I would surmise that it is apparently not common sense.
On the way home from work, I stopped at Wing HQ to pick up a COV for a SAREX this weekend.
Someone is actually of the opinion that I should have taken a uniform to work, and changed clothes in order to deliver the vehicle?
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 01, 2011, 06:58:04 PM
Someone is actually of the opinion that I should have taken a uniform to work, and changed clothes in order to deliver the vehicle?
This could be one of those flexible,
common sense exceptions, but with that said, why not?
You'd change into a uniform for a unit meeting, wouldn't you?
I am not wearing a uniform to take the van out to the post auto craft shop to change the oil and lube it. I am however wearing jeans with an old encampment T-Shirt ;D
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 07:16:54 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 01, 2011, 06:58:04 PM
Someone is actually of the opinion that I should have taken a uniform to work, and changed clothes in order to deliver the vehicle?
This could be one of those flexible, common sense exceptions, but with that said, why not?
You'd change into a uniform for a unit meeting, wouldn't you?
There is nothing more to be said on this topic. The above explains all.... >:D
I don't see what is so hard about putting on a pair of BDUs, or if you prefer, even just the polo uniform. I would even do it just to go get gas. It isn't that hard, there is no doubt that if anything happens you would be taken care of and covered, plus, when you are in a COV, you are representing CAP, so why not do it in uniform?
(Also, I still don't understand what YMMV means, any explanation would be nice. Thank you.)
[lmgtfy]YMMV[/lmgtfy]
Guys, you're a tough crowd. :P
The question asked by the OP referred to the possible mandatory requirements of wearing a CAP uniform when driving a COV. The answer, according to NHQ, is NO. Every other argument, while valid, doesn't change the question or, the answer.
YMMV means "your mileage may vary". I use it to mean your experience may be different and, good for you....
:D
Unless NHQ no longer produces 39-1, then they have clearly said a uniform is required.
77-1 is not the sole authority on this.
OK, Eclipse. The next time the CAP/EX picks me up in his COV in civilian attire and, takes me to my billet at NHQ, I'll ask him if it's OK..... :o
Quote from: FW on April 01, 2011, 09:37:10 PM
OK, Eclipse. The next time the CAP/EX picks me up in his COV in civilian attire and, takes me to my billet at NHQ, I'll ask him if it's OK..... :o
The CAP/EX is not a member of CAP in his role as Executive Director, and he doesn't have a uniform to wear.
The rules are different for paid HQ employees and CAP-USAF, and are irrelevant to this discussion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_V3yfyS1XY
When he's picking me up at the airport, he's just another CAP Col picking up a "bud". What happens during office hours is another coversation. Good thought though... 8)
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 08:45:19 PM
Unless NHQ no longer produces 39-1, then they have clearly said a uniform is required.
77-1 is not the sole authority on this.
The revision date on 77-1 is later than 39-1 so it could be argued that the newest regulation is binding. 77-1 is a REGULATION, 39-1 is a MANUAL by the way........
Quote from: cap235629 on April 02, 2011, 12:15:49 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 08:45:19 PM
Unless NHQ no longer produces 39-1, then they have clearly said a uniform is required.
77-1 is not the sole authority on this.
The revision date on 77-1 is later than 39-1 so it could be argued that the newest regulation is binding. 77-1 is a REGULATION, 39-1 is a MANUAL by the way........
Oh boy, the "regulation trumps manual" argument.
How about this: CAP
Regulation 77-1 is not the publication on uniforms. CAP
Manual 39-1 is.
Your ball.
You know, I'd be the first to agree that CAP has some regulations that leave a lot to be desired in terms of being clear and straightforward, and 39-1 certainly has its own issues in that area.
However, when uniform wear is authorized and/or required is one of the clearest rules we have. Yet, we have some CAPTalkers who apparently believe that it is ok to wear the uniform just about anytime it strikes their fancy (demonstrated in other threads) while others flail about for any excuse not to wear even one of our civilian "uniforms".
Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2011, 08:45:19 PM
Unless NHQ no longer produces 39-1, then they have clearly said a uniform is required.
77-1 is not the sole authority on this.
Wow what a challenging thread this is..... If senior member X is bringing in the van for preventive maintenance and leaving it there while he's on his lunch break putting on a uniform just to drive it there seem a bit of an overkill. Even a color guard/drill team being transported to a competition (e.g. NJ wing traveling to MA) wearing their uniforms while in transit for a long ride is questionable. MY only concern is that any civilian attire being worn should not be a discredit to CAP. Personally though I like the idea of squadron TShirts or sweatshirts being worn by all during transit.
HOWEVER, if it is an AF approved ES mission, yes everyone should be in proper uniform.
RM
We usually require everyone to be in a CAP uniform if we are going in the van. Since any use of the CAP van is a CAP squadron activity (unless you blokes are joy riding in it) that is logged it is not unreasonable to make that request of those that would ride.
I would say that the "inconvenience" of such is one of the best ways to prevent frivolous use.
Again, it is not unreasonable to request that a CAP uniform be worn.
Quote from: FW on April 01, 2011, 08:17:10 PM
Guys, you're a tough crowd. :P
The question asked by the OP referred to the possible mandatory requirements of wearing a CAP uniform when driving a COV. The answer, according to NHQ, is NO. Every other argument, while valid, doesn't change the question or, the answer. :D
I personally know the asker of this question. The circumstance was driving 3+hours to a SAREX. The SAREX began at 0800 Saturday morning. Instead of leaving at 0400 in the morning we obtained permission to spend the night at the ICP. The question was whether or not 15 people had to be all dressed up just to drive 3+ hours just to change into civvies to sleep was really necessary. The whole squadron loves wearing our BDU's but as a matter of convenience we all just wore jeans with encampment/NCSA shirts. 8)
When and if a corporate officer approves no uniform, the onus is on him and that changes the question.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 02, 2011, 07:30:32 PMI would say that the "inconvenience" of such is one of the best ways to prevent frivolous use. Again, it is not unreasonable to request that a CAP uniform be worn.
Making people put on a uniform to use the vehicle is probably the simplest and easiest way to reduce its use for personal errands.
If that's really an issue, it's not a uniform problem that you have.
My personal take: If I am performing a CAP function in public, I wear the uniform. I don't wear it at home.