I've heard rumors that CAP might be holding a nationwide communications exercise in May 2011. Wonder how interested CAP-USAF will be in this exercise ???
RM
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CAP-USAF is fully aware, not "interested". What do you think the SD's do all day?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 05:43:48 PM
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CAP-USAF is fully aware, not "interested". What do you think the SD's do all day?
I don't know what SD's do all day :angel: HOWEVER, with a man of your command experience in CAP, Eclipse:
Do ya think they finally started asking the question, hey guys (in CAP) we've given you multi million dollars worth of taxpayers money to buy radio equipment, ya think you could show us how you can operate an adaptable nationwide radio network and interface the radio network at every level of command in CAP ???
OR are they going stare like deer in the headlights with no/ or little real understanding of anything that they see or hear ???
OR are they are going to pick some experts from the MARS program office and other active/reserve/guard communication units (well versed in contingency communications operations) to assist with evaluating the exercise ???
I personally look forward to this exercise. We will do what we can at the local level with our intra squads portables, VHF base/mobiles/portables, & HF/SSB/ALE equipment. We will also give an honest self evaluation of our strengths & weaknesses at the end of the exercise.
Of course if there's no funding for the exercise, than all bets are off as to who is going to show up do it on their personal dime :-[
RM
Why do you need funding for a Comm exercise? Are you planning on running on emergency power?
>> OR are they are going to pick some experts from the MARS program office and other active/reserve/guard communication units (well versed in contingency communications operations) to assist with evaluating the exercise
I'm available. ;)
Brand new to CAP, but long-time MARS-tian. Used to plan our Grecian Firebolt exercises when they were held at Fort Meade. I've had ALE here since 1999 and helped plan several other Federal ALE networks.
-- john (who is also AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAM3RE/AAA9SL/NCS207 and several other callsigns ::))
Quote from: Larry Mangum on March 25, 2011, 06:29:31 PM
Why do you need funding for a Comm exercise? Are you planning on running on emergency power?
Depending upon exercise taskings, you could have units deploying to certain radio hot spot areas or just selected areas to set up temporary base type radio communications, or even being in a rover status mobile checking a fairly large area. Additionally groups of highbird aircraft could be sent up to certain altitudes for multiple wing inter wing communications. HF Radios could require emergency power either battery or generator, etc, etc, etc.
Again it could also be just test the HF SSB/ALE, primarily ALE, but maybe some conventional HF/SSB also as a reference point/comparison to ALE regional & national operations. Too early to tell until the plan gets published
RM
What is the point of this thread?
You say yourself the plan isn't published, so you don't even have a clue as to what it will entail, yet you insinuate that CAP-USAF
is unaware and that CAP should reach to MARS for help?
You clearly have no idea what the role of CAP-USAF is to CAP, for starters.
So what you are saying, is that you are off on a tirade about the exercise, without even knowing what is involved? Dude, get a life and quit being the little boy who cried wolf. Look, there are enough real problems that need to be solved without a lot of whining and [censored]ing about stuff that you either know nothing about or have nothing constructive to add.
YMMV
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 06:28:01 PM
Do ya think they finally started asking the question, hey guys (in CAP) we've given you multi million dollars worth of taxpayers money to buy radio equipment, ya think you could show us how you can operate an adaptable nationwide radio network and interface the radio network at every level of command in CAP ???
CAPR 100-1 Section 5-5 a, a. requires annual exercises, including at the national level. Rather than some sinister agenda from on high, I suspect the upcoming exercise is simply an effort to comply with our own regulation.
With the narrow-band transition completely implemented we may see a focus on HF-ALE. I predict our HF-ALE results will be weak, as expected for a new (to CAP) system. The exercise will identify how we can improve in the future. It will be our job as communicators to rise to the occasion.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 25, 2011, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 06:28:01 PM
Do ya think they finally started asking the question, hey guys (in CAP) we've given you multi million dollars worth of taxpayers money to buy radio equipment, ya think you could show us how you can operate an adaptable nationwide radio network and interface the radio network at every level of command in CAP ???
CAPR 100-1 Section 5-5 a, a. requires annual exercises, including at the national level. Rather than some sinister agenda from on high, I suspect the upcoming exercise is simply an effort to comply with our own regulation.
With the narrow-band transition completely implemented we may see a focus on HF-ALE. I predict our HF-ALE results will be weak, as expected for a new (to CAP) system. The exercise will identify how we can improve in the future. It will be our job as communicators to rise to the occasion.
Civil Air Patrol has not had a nationwide exercise in two years, and therefore violated their own regulation. I do look forward to the testing and hopefully the results will justify to the AF that the expenditures will show a successful robust/adaptive radio communications system to support nationwide communications.
RM
A couple of comments:
1. This exercise will not meet the requirement as listed in CAPR 100-1, since there has been more than a 24 hour notice.
2. Previous exercises focused exclusively on the HF side and ignored the VHF side. This one will work both.
3. When more details are released, we'll see what the purpose of the exercise is. Right now, all we've got is a heads up notice.
4. COWG is going to have fun since our link is NOT commercial infrastructure, but is government infrastructre and therefore is usable for this exercise.
5. For more details on this will affect your wing, stay tuned to your wing information dispersal system for more accurate information than you will find on CAPTalk, CadetStuff, or any other CAP-related online forum
Quote from: arajca on March 25, 2011, 08:56:57 PM
A couple of comments:
1. This exercise will not meet the requirement as listed in CAPR 100-1, since there has been more than a 24 hour notice.
2. Previous exercises focused exclusively on the HF side and ignored the VHF side. This one will work both.
3. When more details are released, we'll see what the purpose of the exercise is. Right now, all we've got is a heads up notice.
4. COWG is going to have fun since our link is NOT commercial infrastructure, but is government infrastructre and therefore is usable for this exercise.
5. For more details on this will affect your wing, stay tuned to your wing information dispersal system for more accurate information than you will find on CAPTalk, CadetStuff, or any other CAP-related online forum
Guess I don't have to worry about doing the wing wide ground comm exercise planning for this year!!! :) (now I have only one exercise to plan for :( )
I'm guessing that your VHF is linked via a state run microwave link just like another wing I'm aware of. They cause some interfere with our operations in one of our wing operational areas since they key up all their repeaters at once. Realistically, my feeling is CAP comm should be able to stand on it's own via its' own radio system of VHF repeaters, VHF simplex, HF/SSB conventional, and HF/ALE operation. I also think that on HF, digital messaging capability may work out best for us, especially with low ALE link quality analysis percentages. HF operation should be skywave as well as NVIS. CAP overall has not done a good job in apply NVIS principles and we will need to work on this.
As far as notification & availability I think that one can run availability exercises just to check that throughout the year even without firing up the radios. Wings should be able to have a radio communications network mapped out and based upon this availability check could see where the problems in the network are based upon availability. My wing DC knows my availability for exercises. IF it's the real thing I can get much more flexible BUT I'm sure others have jobs that their employers expect them to be at and some others are self employed so if they don't work there's no income for them.
We also need to look at the priority of using CAP owned facilities (versus private residences) for our radio communications network operations and a national directory/plan needs to be developed.
I do believe though that CAP will eventually have to go to some small satellite terminals, primarily for digital messaging rather than voice. With burst/compression technology costs and system loading are greatly reduced.
Again, I do look forward to this and hopefully we can get a lot more people REALLY interested in CAP radio communications than we currently have.
RM
A multi-agency national level exercise is being held the week of May 16. It is based on a New Madrid earthquake scenario. It is not "national" as in nationwide, but in the sense that multiple federal, state, and local agencies are involved. It's scope is not limited to communications, but that is obviously an intregal part of it. In Kentucky we have been attending preparatory meetings for months. We will be flying repeaters, performing airborne recon on supply routes and infrastructure, and supplying radio operators to the National Guard.
As far as I know, the exercise is limited to the areas affected by the New Madrid Scenario, but that is an assumption on my part.
National is planning a communications exercise during the same time frame to test the ENTIRE CAP radio network. Wings participating in the New Madrid Exercise are not expected to participate in the CommEx since they will be otherwise occupied. The Commex is NOT part of the New Madrid Exercise, but merely takes place at the same time.
T-minus 5 weeks and counting.
I'm curious how individual wings and squadrons are planning to participate. Particularly those involved in Constant Watch, outside the Ardent Sentry simulated disaster zone.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on April 10, 2011, 04:39:44 PM
T-minus 5 weeks and counting.
I'm curious how individual wings and squadrons are planning to participate. Particularly those involved in Constant Watch, outside the Ardent Sentry simulated disaster zone.
Still a pending work in process in our wing with the wing comm staff & sq comm officers to have a conference call in near future. Also wing is unsure as to what region might want to add to exercise.
Personally, this looks like a weekday exercise, I'm at work during the day (and unless there's some senior members that aren't working and are willing to be trained in setup/operation of the HF/ALE/RDP), so likely what we will plan at the squadron level will be a 1800 to 2200 hrs local participation level, HF/SSB ALE, as well as typical VHF repeater & simplex operation.
Ideally we should exercise every possible aspect of the radio communications systems (In the addition HF/SSB ALE, also include HF/SSB conventional, VHF FM/P25, repeater & simplex (base, mobiles, portables), & ISR's --- which of course the regions and wings will determine how much of this locally will be played).
No one knows if this is going to be an assigned AF Mission with potential for reimbursement if we have some roving mobiles checking out comm ranges
I would guess the minimum participation level would be CAP radio stations checking into the nets when they can and remaining for as long as they can in the net.
RM
I'm not a CAP comm guy.....but I do comm in my day job....but I have never been empressed with the CAP Comm program.
A national comm exercise, should not be a big thing.
It should be tested every month IMHO. A simple net check from 0800Z-0900Z should suffice.
Regional and wing nets should be tested weekly.
Heck that's how the program is set up....yet too many wings simply don't do them.
There is a national HF net.
Many wings and regions do run nets at least weekly, if not more.
Nets do not tell you how the system will work in an emergency.
If all the CAP players were paid employees, a national exercise would not be a big thing, but we're not. It does take more coordination to get volunteers to be available for a non-emergency. Even as a volunteer firefighter, I had similar issues on a smaller scale.
Quote from: arajca on April 10, 2011, 11:05:57 PM
Nets do not tell you how the system will work in an emergency.
Then you are using the nets wrong.
Sorry to be blunt...but that is the bald face truth.
A national COMMEX should only have thing like knocking a node off of the net and see how long it takes to recover. But in order to do that you have to know what the steady state of the net is in the first place.
NVWG is not part of that net as far as I know.....so the net is broken before we even injust exercise inputs.
I know getting everyone together to play is hard.......so you plan it out well in advance....and you hammer wings and regions who fail to have enought trained personnel to respond.
I would love to see how well the net really works from a national point. Could we in INWG connect well with MEWG and CAWG and could AWG connect with MEWG and do it well? I am very interested to know our true limit capabilities so far as CONUS comms. I would be very impressed if we could all really communicate with each other without cell use.
As I recall, this was done in the 1960s-70s on an annual basis...not sure why it stopped...but anything that encourages training and teamwork is good, in my view.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 10, 2011, 11:57:12 PM
Quote from: arajca on April 10, 2011, 11:05:57 PM
Nets do not tell you how the system will work in an emergency.
Then you are using the nets wrong.
Sorry to be blunt...but that is the bald face truth.
A national COMMEX should only have thing like knocking a node off of the net and see how long it takes to recover. But in order to do that you have to know what the steady state of the net is in the first place.
NVWG is not part of that net as far as I know.....so the net is broken before we even injust exercise inputs.
I know getting everyone together to play is hard.......so you plan it out well in advance....and you hammer wings and regions who fail to have enought trained personnel to respond.
Sorta, kinda, not exactly.
The truth is most of the equipment being checked during the nets is a non-factor during missions, so there's no point to it.
The majority of those in my AOR and wing who respond to missions have no interest in a nightly round of "no traffic, over".
I would fully support a mandate of regular participation in the nets by anyone with issued equipment, but as it stands, without
that, we're not confidence checking the people or equipment we'd actually use or depend on.
Also, rarely, if ever, do net check-ins, or even comm exercises, include the aircraft radios or tactical repeaters - both critical in real missions.
My wing did a very interesting test about two years ago where they put just about every airplane up that we had, and tested the ability
to talk from one end of the state to the other using only VHF, high birds, and message handling. Surprisingly it worked very well, but nothing like that has been done since.
The Constant Watch exercise plans are available in the secure area of the NTC site.
I will be participating in Ardent Sentry in Missouri Wing. Not a lot of information
out there, just where to report. The most I have heard is CAP may work with
MO National Guard in some role. I am looking forward to the experience gained in a National Level Exercise (NLE).
Ardent Sentry is not a communications exercise.
True, but Constant Watch is planned around Ardent Sentry. Those wings participating in Ardent Sentry are not expected to participate in Constant Watch, and Ardent Sentry traffic has priority over Constant Watch traffic.
I am just going to simply wonder if this is an OPSEC issue. Regardless if we participate or not, we should use discretion in what we post here.
Quote from: mclarke on April 12, 2011, 09:03:57 PM
I am just going to simply wonder if this is an OPSEC issue. Regardless if we participate or not, we should use discretion in what we post here.
Nothing posted here so far approaches OPSEC concerns. The fact CAP is participating in disaster exercises and communications exercises is not a secret. In fact it is worthy of some attention from Public Affairs.
The National Comm Team leader posted about the communications exercise on Facebook. CAP Volunteer Now posted information about CAP's Ardent Sentry participation on the Internet. I think we are safe.
Now if someone posts frequencies and designators they will deserve a boot to the head.
Exhibit A:
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/headline_news.cfm/emergency_responders_prepare_for_new_madrid_earthquake_exercise?show=news&newsID=10422
What is the event we are calling Ardent Sentry?
The email from my wing states Ardent Sentry as the CAP event. The NLE is linked with SEMA and the National Guard. I had not heard of Constant Watch until reading about it here. As for OPSEC, in my wing we have had notices of the NLE before March, my CERT Instructors knew about the NLE and the local fire department knew about it also.
Quote from: Senior on April 13, 2011, 01:52:24 AM
What is the event we are calling Ardent Sentry?
http://tinyurl.com/3ncd5ce
I didn't think about using Google. I thought with all your knowledge "Eclipse" you may have a link to the FEMA,HQ CAP, etc. websites that would help.
Google has been nearly useless with regard to Ardent Sentry 2011. You will find info on previous years events, both official and conspiracy theories. Some of it is entertaining reading.
From what I gather Ardent Sentry is an annual exercise practicing military and federal response to a variety of disaster or terror scenarios. For 2011 the big quake is at least one of the scenarios. I don't know if there are others. Some CAP wings are participating in the earthquake portion of Ardent Sentry. The rest of us are impacted by the CAP only exercise: Constant Watch.
Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 06:28:01 PM
I personally look forward to this exercise. We will do what we can at the local level with our intra squads portables, VHF base/mobiles/portables, & HF/SSB/ALE equipment. We will also give an honest self evaluation of our strengths & weaknesses at the end of the exercise.
RM
Unfortunately, it looks to me like this is a weekday exercise, and most adult CAP members work during the weekdays, and also cadets go to school. During the evenings cadets have to do their homework, and may be able to attend one weekly CAP meeting. Adult senior members may or may not be available.
So this may be a staffing challenge rather than an equipment challenge, BUT of course if you don't have the available staff to operate the radio equipment than your exercise may not be as effective IF you at least had part of it on a weekend ??? >:( (and remember if it was the really thing many members would be willing to take some vacation time from their employment). I know we will try to do our best to support our wing/region BUT I'm already seeing limitations at my level :(
RM
we are passing traffic at around 0100 zulu everday
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 23, 2011, 12:02:32 AMUnfortunately, it looks to me like this is a weekday exercise, and most adult CAP members work during the weekdays, and also cadets go to school. During the evenings cadets have to do their homework, and may be able to attend one weekly CAP meeting. Adult senior members may or may not be available.
RM
Natural disasters have a nasty habit of happening any day of the week.
We know we can do stuff on Saturday and Sunday, but how about Wednesday at 1400?
Sounds like they want to get a true picture of what we can do.
Quote from: PHall on April 23, 2011, 06:01:01 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on April 23, 2011, 12:02:32 AMUnfortunately, it looks to me like this is a weekday exercise, and most adult CAP members work during the weekdays, and also cadets go to school. During the evenings cadets have to do their homework, and may be able to attend one weekly CAP meeting. Adult senior members may or may not be available.
RM
Natural disasters have a nasty habit of happening any day of the week.
We know we can do stuff on Saturday and Sunday, but how about Wednesday at 1400?
Sounds like they want to get a true picture of what we can do.
Whether they get a true picture will depend on the time of day they try to pass traffic. Radioman015 was right: people will/can leave work in droves for a real emergency but not for a drill. When a tornado hit a nearby town a few years ago, many CAP members were able to leave work to go help. Hundreds of us showed up. That simply doesn't happen when there is no perceived urgency, as with a exercise.
Hopefully most traffic will be passed during evening hours when most of us can come out to play.
If volunteers are going to train up, most of it has to happen on weekends. It gets more challenging when we want to train with folks who get paid. Many of them train during the business week.
I've heard some good discussion, I've heard some that seem to complain no matter what we do. There are people who are not in CAP who read this blog and form opinions about us based on it. Some use it to help us, some seem to want to hurt us. It can serve as a good forum for frank discussion and idea sharing.
While we normally practice and train on weekends, we must be able to play well with others. Most of those others practice and train during the week, when they get paid to. The nice thing about CAP is that our membership is very diverse. We have young cadets as well as seasoned retirees. Some have ridged schedules, some are flexible. It's what helps CAP be flexible and that too needs to be evaluated from time to time.
While it is true that the "affected Wings" are located in the Central US, radio waves are funny. Sometimes I can't talk to someone 30 miles from me by HF or VHF. But I may be able to relay a message to that person from a station 300 miles from me. The ability to do that also needs to be evaluated and practiced. If it was easy, it wouldn't be called an "exercise".
Quote from: kc4lqt on April 23, 2011, 12:51:14 PM
While we normally practice and train on weekends, we must be able to play well with others. Most of those others practice and train during the week, when they get paid to. The nice thing about CAP is that our membership is very diverse. We have young cadets as well as seasoned retirees. Some have ridged schedules, some are flexible. It's what helps CAP be flexible and that too needs to be evaluated from time to time.
Well our squadron will be beaming out radio signals on VHF FM/P25 Digital, HF/ALE, HF/SSB conventional, likely from around 1700 to 2400 hrs local EACH evening of the exercise. That's what we can do.
I think it is reasonable that anyone with a CAP radio (especially HF/SSB, HF/ALE) to at least participate in a four hour block for a couple of evenings or even days during the exercise period. The AF spent a lot of taxpayers money on our radio equipment and we need to be able to show them that we can operate an adaptable contingency network to link everyone together via radio if the need arises. Also we should be doing this just to have fun folks and teach our cadets (and seniors) a bit more about radios.
RM
Exercise has been cancelled for May 2011 due to increased ops tempo in many wing responding to actual emergencies.
Rumor is they are looking at some time in July 2011. Of course most people take vacations in July & August so hopefully they will come up with dates shortly, including at least one weekend date. My feeling is they should run the exercise starting Thursday 1600Z through Sunday 1600Z and should ensure that ALL CAP radio communications assets (HF/SSB conventional HF/ALE, VHF NFM/P25, low power UHF) are utilized in the test, as well as other members with just passive radio receivers (to determine the effectiveness of one way broadcasts). We need to develop more proficiency with ground simplex operations. I'd also like to see us get support from an AF E4B do a simplex high bird relay and one way broadcast orbiting at 38-40K, as well as participation by AF Global HF Radio System :angel:
RM
And July is after the start of hurricane season for southern and Gulf coast Wings.
Quote from: BillB on May 05, 2011, 10:33:04 AM
And July is after the start of hurricane season for southern and Gulf coast Wings.
Well I guess we should never have an exercise because EVERY month may have something possibly going on ??? ::) Personally I'd like to see it in the fall time frame. I think the key thing is if they are going to have a test/exercise give enough notice so everyone can plan accordingly. I've heard that some wings "no notice"/ "short notice" comm test/exercises haven't had very good participation.
RM
Wow, there is a lot of areas in the country that are recovering or will be in a disaster situation shortly and CAP aero activity is likely going to be very high taking recon photos, etc.
HOWEVER, we still don't have dates in July for the communications test/exercise. Maybe this will actually take place in the fall or early winter time. Frankly I really don't think we need an entire week for an exercise. Perhaps Friday 1700Z thru Sunday 1400Z, would give us an adequate understanding of how the HF/SSB/ALE systems/networks will operate. Also if there's any personnel staffing limitations, I would think that each wing would address these issues as limiting factors. It's been a long time since I worked an overnight shift & I don't think my body is up to the task :( :-[
I read on another list that one wing is considering the installation of VHF beam antennas for extended communications range for point to point simplex as well as extending range or increase the quality of the signal into the repeater system. Some communicators (which I tend to agree with) feel that we need to get good baseline data on how far we can communicate on simplex versus the repeater systems.
I full support having this nationwide exercise and hope we will be able to demonstrate to the USAF that we have a very good long range (as well as short range) communications network for supporting any mission that we may be given.
RM
Why do we need "exercises" when 1/2 the wings right now can barely keep up with actuals?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 15, 2011, 11:40:46 PM
Why do we need "exercises" when 1/2 the wings right now can barely keep up with actuals?
Hmm, wonder where you pulled those stats out of ???
RM
New dates: 8-12 July 2011.
Plan will be available on the NTC website after Monday.
For those in COWG, check the COWG Communications Training web page
For everyone else: no, I won't post it here. Contact your wing DC.