When a CAP cadet is also a boy scout, and they earn "Eagle Scout" can the time used to do the project for the Eagle Scout count towards the community service ribbon?
Almost forgot, please provide citation to CAPR's that apply.
NO
if it is "NO" , what mandates that answer ( which CAPR ). I am trying to help research this for a cadet with out internet. (parents don't allow it.)
Quote from: Dutchboy on March 24, 2011, 01:25:22 AM
if it is "NO" , what mandates that answer ( which CAPR ). I am trying to help research this for a cadet with out internet. (parents don't allow it.)
CAPR 39-3 would be a good start. The answer you seek lies within..
Quote from: tsrup on March 24, 2011, 01:29:55 AM
Quote from: Dutchboy on March 24, 2011, 01:25:22 AM
if it is "NO" , what mandates that answer ( which CAPR ). I am trying to help research this for a cadet with out internet. (parents don't allow it.)
CAPR 39-3 would be a good start. The answer you seek lies within..
CAPR 39-3 i states the following (but does not say anything against what I am trying to figure out.
i. Community Service Ribbon. Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol. The service must be verified by a volunteer coordinator. Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition. A bronze clasp may be added for each additional 60 hours of community service.
then there is your answer.
Quote from: tsrup on March 24, 2011, 01:48:41 AM
then there is your answer.
So who is correct? the definitive "no" or what you are saying?
Quote from: Dutchboy on March 24, 2011, 01:50:10 AM
Quote from: tsrup on March 24, 2011, 01:48:41 AM
then there is your answer.
So who is correct? the definitive "no" or what you are saying?
The reg says that the award is given for 60 hours of community service outside of CAP,
Boy Scouts is outside of CAP, you are doing community service.
If you do 60 hours, and it is logged appropriately and approved by your squadron commander, then you qualify for the ribbon.
The criteria for the ribbon is right there, that is the only governance toward it. If anyone gives you heartburn on it, have them justify it (respectfully of course) against that regulation right there.
If the scout did the community service OUTSIDE of CAP, the cadet is good for the ribbon.
Does that make it clearer?
To clarify my answer. The purpose of the Eagle Scout Project is to earn the Eagle Scout Award. There should be no other motive. I have a fundamental objection to awarding the CSR for something that has already been recognized in such a way, especially since the Eagle Scout Award is so respected if not revered by society, not just the BSA. If you put down on a resume that you are an Eagle Scout, it says something. Put down that you received a CSR and see what kind of response you get.
It sounds like the cadet is bling hunting. If he was in the unit when he earned his Eagle, issue him a letter of commendation or something.
Double dipping is not cool IN MY OPINION. The regs say otherwise. If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.
YMMV
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.
And you would be going out on a very weak limb.
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
The regs say otherwise.
All the CC does is file the letter from the outside person and cut the 2a.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 02:23:43 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.
And you would be going out on a very weak limb.
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
The regs say otherwise.
All the CC does is file the letter from the outside person and cut the 2a.
He is the approving authority at the squadron level
Bill, the regulation is pretty clear however, your points do have merit and, a CSR is very small potatoes compared to the attainment of Eagle Scout.
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:25:03 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 02:23:43 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.
And you would be going out on a very weak limb.
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
The regs say otherwise.
All the CC does is file the letter from the outside person and cut the 2a.
He is the approving authority at the squadron level
Yes, but the regs don't support him as he stated and if a complaint was run up the chain he would lose. It's best to not interject an opinion and follow the regs because according to them there is nothing wrong with using that service for the ribbon.
so a Commander has no discretion?
Do we really want to go there??? >:D
I agree, a Commander should follow the regulations when they're clear, and in this case they are.
Also, a Squadron Commander isn't necessarily the approving authority, depending on how the Wing develops it's supplements. Service Awards are approved by the Wing Commander via the chain of command, unless this approval delegated in writing to subordinate commanders. (CAPR 39-3, Section F, Para 19)
The idea that a hours a scout spends on his Eagle Project aren't community service that deserve to be counted as community service hours seems a little far-fetched, IMHO.
I'm of the opinion that the community service ribbon just shows what a person has done, and isn't actually some sort of hard-won honor. Why hold back someone from counting those hours toward the 60+ they have accrued in order to wear the ribbon?
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:34:32 AM
so a Commander has no discretion?
Only where his superiors will back him up. This is black and white. No room for personal interpretation in this particular case.
Frankly if you are getting an award or designation from your volunteer activity from another agency, than I see no reason for allowing in double dipping. >:(
This entire CAP community service ribbon is assine. Why don't we just do things because it nice to help our community/others in need and our recognition is just knowing we did the right thing ???
Again this is another AF wanna bee adaptation that got put on the books. Last time I looked isn't CAP about "Serving Communities, Above & Beyond?"
RM
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AM
To clarify my answer. The purpose of the Eagle Scout Project is to earn the Eagle Scout Award. There should be no other motive. I have a fundamental objection to awarding the CSR for something that has already been recognized in such a way, especially since the Eagle Scout Award is so respected if not revered by society, not just the BSA. If you put down on a resume that you are an Eagle Scout, it says something. Put down that you received a CSR and see what kind of response you get.
It sounds like the cadet is bling hunting. If he was in the unit when he earned his Eagle, issue him a letter of commendation or something.
Double dipping is not cool IN MY OPINION. The regs say otherwise. If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.
YMMV
I disagree...humbly and will justify why (it may not be why you would expect). I believe that becoming an Eagle Scout is a most excellent form of Community Service in itself. That becoming such...which 1) takes adherence to a program with a high degree of emotional and time investment, 2) provides a significant contribution to the greater community via the project, and 3) holds a legacy of excellent (I know the Eagle Scout truly is a "stand up fellow," every one I have met is a person of magnum character...is in the same spirit as the Community Service ribbon.
In fact, I think that the Community Service Ribbon might be the best tacit way that a scout could be recognized in CAP for those community service actions. The purpose of the whole endeavor is to " do a good turn daily..." not to "BECOME AN EAGLE SCOUT." The prize is not in the AWARD as it is in the SERVICE.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 24, 2011, 03:30:58 AM
Frankly if you are getting an award or designation from your volunteer activity from another agency, than I see no reason for allowing in double dipping. >:(
This entire CAP community service ribbon is assine. Why don't we just do things because it nice to help our community/others in need and our recognition is just knowing we did the right thing ???
Again this is another AF wanna bee adaptation that got put on the books. Last time I looked isn't CAP about "Serving Communities, Above & Beyond?"
RM
And some wonder why people appear to pick on your arguments...this lacks every sort of tact necessary for free and civil discourse. C'mon, there is nothing wrong with awarding a person's service. "Double Dipping?!?" ...scoff...that is the only ridiculous notion I have detected in the past few posts.
It is an award for community service...as honorable as any a reason one can think off.
My point on the matter and opinion is this...
COMMUNITY SERVICE RIBBON- For doing good in your community as expressed in "to be of service to my COMMUNITY, STATE and NATON." Why would one find fault for an award that is enshrined in the CADET OATH?
RED SERVICE RIBBON- For going good works in CAP for a given period of time. There is nothing wrong with an award for people who give time from their lives to make CAP work.
Again, CAP may not be about "Serving Communities, Above & Beyond?"...but it is about serving "COMMUNITY, STATE and NATION."
IMHO...The BSA is definitely outside the Scope of the Civil Air Patrol. Since Community Service is not necessarily required in ALL BSA programs...The Community Service should totally be recognized in Civil Air Patrol regardless of his affiliation with the BSA.
Civil Air Patrol member volunteers for the Local Rescue Squad...Shouldn't they be recognized for their continued Community Service even if they receive an award from the Rescue Squad? The Concept of "Double Dipping" is ridiculous.
Bring me to another point about Squadron Commander denying an award for which they are NOT the approving authority...that always gives me heartburn. WIWAD The award request ALWAYS had to be submitted to the approving Authority. For Example, Medal X The Approving Authority is the Wing Commander, Member Submits to Squadron Commander who either "Forwards, Recommending Approval" or "Forwards, Recommending Disapproval" with Justification. Certain Awards are supposed to be reviewed by the Approving Authority to make sure the criteria for the award was met and that the Regulation wasn't being misinterpreted by the lower echelons to prevent Erroneous Awards or lack thereof
IMHO, the only Community Service outside CAP that you would have a leg to disallow would be that assigned by a Judge as part of sentencing.
Quote from: Al Sayre on March 24, 2011, 01:07:48 PM
IMHO, the only Community Service outside CAP that you would have a leg to disallow would be that assigned by a Judge as part of sentencing.
Agreed...I marvel at those who post desiring to deny people CAP awards (and then complain that we cannot retain members or that we don't recognize people for their contributions...i.e. comments like "too bad people learn what a CAPF 2b is before they ever hear of a CAPF 120)
WIWAC I received my CSM based on my Eagle Project and other community service. The Eagle Project took over 2 years to complete and I logged 178 hours of community service with my squadron based on that one project. In addition I participated in other scout projects and helped at a food distribution center on my own. If the CSM accepts devices (which I believed to be correct but have since been told otherwise) then I would qualify for several silver devices. If there needs to be precedent for awarding a CSM based on Eagle hours then I guess I am it.
^ Yes, and for that work you received an Eagle Scout badge. Congratulations.
Why should you also get something from CAP?
The only thing above that I would approve a CSM for would be the direct service to the soup kitchens. The other activities you are already
receiving awards from someone else for.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 08:44:22 PMWhy should you also get something from CAP?
Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 08:44:22 PMWhy should you also get something from CAP?
Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?
Yes, it is - because in a work or military context, CAP is community service.
But in a compartitive sense, the BSA and CAP are like, all-volunteer organizations.
Also, I am not concerned if other organizations give awards for CAP service, that is their business. My only concern is maintaining the integrity of
CAP awards I am asked to approve, and IMHO, double-awarding people serves no purpose but dec-trolling.
The regulation cites community service outside of CAP.
Was it verified volunteer/unpaid community service done outside of CAP? If yes, then that is where CAP's involvement in the matter ends. If the person is otherwise recognized for this service by another organization or entity, that is of no concern to us as it is outside of our jurisdiction.
Note: An obvious exception would be that community service as part of any Court-ordered sanction is not voluntary, and as such does not qualify for CAP community service hours.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 09:22:18 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 08:44:22 PMWhy should you also get something from CAP?
Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?
Yes, it is - because in a work or military context, CAP is community service.
But in a compartitive sense, the BSA and CAP are like, all-volunteer organizations.
Also, I am not concerned if other organizations give awards for CAP service, that is their business. My only concern is maintaining the integrity of
CAP awards I am asked to approve, and IMHO, double-awarding people serves no purpose but dec-trolling.
So it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 09:58:37 PMSo it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.
How many awards to we give people for the same service?
On my desk it is one. On yours, it can be two.
Comparatively, I suppose we could use the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal" (MOVSM) as an example. If a military member who is also a CAP member, volunteers 100 hours at the local soup kitchen, outside of their service to CAP, would you say that they don't qualify for the CAP Community Service Medal because they used that 100 hours as a bullet in their MOVSM package, or visa versa?
Yes.
Quote from: cap235629 on March 24, 2011, 02:20:35 AMDouble dipping is not cool IN MY OPINION. The regs say otherwise. If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.
And the cadet would have a valid IG complaint. And considering you just said you would not follow regulations because you as a commander chose not to, it would be a fairly easy complaint to process.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 09:58:37 PMSo it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.
How many awards to we give people for the same service?
On my desk it is one. On yours, it can be two.
We(CAP) are only giving them one. Double dipping is like planning and executing a conference and getting both an achievement award and comm comm.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 09:22:18 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 08:44:22 PMWhy should you also get something from CAP?
Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?
Yes, it is - because in a work or military context, CAP is community service.
But in a compartitive sense, the BSA and CAP are like, all-volunteer organizations.
Also, I am not concerned if other organizations give awards for CAP service, that is their business. My only concern is maintaining the integrity of
CAP awards I am asked to approve, and IMHO, double-awarding people serves no purpose but dec-trolling.
Then you are in violation of the "cite please postulate," adding additional levels NOT in the Regulations based on personal beliefs...an idea I KNOW YOU HATE!!!
By your definition, working in student councils, church related assistance and or on behalf of any endeavor or organization would disqualify everyone. Are you suggesting you allow a 12 year old cadet (or any age for that matter) to enter an inner city neighborhood with a pot and a ladle to pass out soup or provide some other such potentially dangerous, yet totally communitarian, activity?...I would say, based on your claims, yes...since doing so with the Salvation Army, Local Mission/Food Bank, Knights of Columbus Squire Circle, Student Council, Scout Troop or any organization where they might get some recognition is somehow abhorrent.
As usual, people make a mountain out of a mole hill.
The Community Service Ribbon requirements are in plain English and black and white. "outside of CAP".
Why do others insist on reading into regulations?
Even though it is a well thought award, it is what it is. A ribbon to recognize community service outside of CAP. It's not like we are going to start giving away Spaatz Awards to those who earn Eagle.
Is the Community Service Ribbon really that important? Let's be honest here. If it was gone tomorrow, would anyone really miss it?
I honestly think that Community Service for all of the Boy Scout ranks would qualify. Not just for Eagle.
Eagle Award Recipient-1994
Quote from: davidsinn on March 25, 2011, 02:44:43 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 09:58:37 PMSo it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.
How many awards to we give people for the same service?
On my desk it is one. On yours, it can be two.
We(CAP) are only giving them one. Double dipping is like planning and executing a conference and getting both an achievement award and comm comm.
Which is 100% inappropriate.
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 25, 2011, 05:43:11 AM
Then you are in violation of the "cite please postulate," adding additional levels NOT in the Regulations based on personal beliefs...an idea I KNOW YOU HATE!!!
By your definition, working in student councils, church related assistance and or on behalf of any endeavor or organization would disqualify everyone. Are you suggesting you allow a 12 year old cadet (or any age for that matter) to enter an inner city neighborhood with a pot and a ladle to pass out soup or provide some other such potentially dangerous, yet totally communitarian, activity?...I would say, based on your claims, yes...since doing so with the Salvation Army, Local Mission/Food Bank, Knights of Columbus Squire Circle, Student Council, Scout Troop or any organization where they might get some recognition is somehow abhorrent.
Yeah, OK.
This is a 100% subjective award based on the acceptance and approval of the commander.
Sign the ones you feel are appropriate.
The only way to fix this would be a national review board where a cadet would submit the service and it is either approved or not, otherwise,
it will always be different whereever you go.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 03:42:27 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 25, 2011, 02:44:43 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 24, 2011, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 24, 2011, 09:58:37 PMSo it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.
How many awards to we give people for the same service?
On my desk it is one. On yours, it can be two.
We(CAP) are only giving them one. Double dipping is like planning and executing a conference and getting both an achievement award and comm comm.
Which is 100% inappropriate.
That was his point...CAP won't give two awards for the same action...but the fact that someone volunteers outside of Civil Air Patrol should be recognized and encouraged by us as a benevolent organization regardless of the fact that someone else also applauds that behavior.
Perhaps I should point out that the service project is not the sole requirement for the Eagle award. It's merely one step on the way. So in essence you don't get the Eagle for completing the project, you get it for completing the requirements for the award which happens to include the service project.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 25, 2011, 04:18:05 PM
Perhaps I should point out that the service project is not the sole requirement for the Eagle award. It's merely one step on the way. So in essence you don't get the Eagle for completing the project, you get it for completing the requirements for the award which happens to include the service project.
Using this as an example, the community service in question was not performed "because", it was performed as part of a larger effort towards another organization's goals. An organization which will award that cadet nicely when completed.
You're splitting hairs to try and separate this for argument's sake.
Eclipse,
For the life of me, I cannot find any way to justify not giving a CAP member an award simply because they also get recognition from another organization. There is nothing wrong with two different organizations recognizing an individual for the same thing if each organization finds it is worthy of recognition.
So your company gives you time off equal to some community service project, you should get a CSR, too?
Why are we attempting to be so stingy? It's not like the cadet is going for a Meritorious Service medal or something. It's a CSR. A RIBBON. If the cadet is doing community service OUTSIDE of CAP, it meets the regs and should be acknowledged. Not to mention the scout master would need to sign-off on the hours for our purposes. If I were the scout master and felt it was double-dipping or deceptive, why sign off on the hours then? Just my two cents here but very few cadets ever go for the CSR because 60 hrs is pretty hard to obtain when doing so many other things in life. I think in four years as a DCC I've awarded maybe 2 or 3 of them. I've had many more who were interested and tried but just couldn't get the hours done. IMO we should give cadets as much as we can to encourage them and keep them active in CAP. Their being awarded the CSR may also inspire other cadets to try and get one themselves. I can only see positive outcome here as the increase in cadets doing community service is very much in keeping with our core beliefs.
I'm not being stingy, I'm trying to hold the award for what it is intended.
We've got more than "plenty" of CSR's in my AOR, and perhaps my attitude is shaped by far too many people
who spend their evenings ribbon trolling for anything they can squeeze into CAP.
I have never personally denied one, nor have I told any of my CC's, explicitly to deny one, but I have advised them
on occasion, and my personal bar is that it should be a project with a set time frame, agreed upon in advance, and
something you are not doing anyway as a matter of course, regardless.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 06:14:36 PM
I'm not being stingy, I'm trying to hold the award for what it is intended.
It's
intended to recognize community service completed outside of CAP. The reg doesn't specify that it can't be completed with any particular agency, any particular reason, or any other restriction. If that was the
intention then it would also be spelled out.
A member at a squadron shouldn't be adding their own intentions on top of a clearly written directive.
Hypothetical: A member volunteers at the local hospital, and receives a certificate of appreciation for it.
Does that mean those volunteer hours should not count towards a CAP community service award?
Quote from: N Harmon on March 25, 2011, 07:22:12 PM
Hypothetical: A member volunteers at the local hospital, and receives a certificate of appreciation for it.
Does that mean those volunteer hours should not count towards a CAP community service award?
Was the community service something discussed in advance with the commander and approved? Or has the member been
working there for years, read 39-3 and now wants a ribbon with two attachments?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
Was the community service something discussed in advance with the commander and approved? Or has the member been
working there for years, read 39-3 and now wants a ribbon with two attachments?
Does that matter? Where is the pre-approval of the any commander required for community service?
Where is it not? As we've discussed, absent a national standard of acceptability, it is the subjective decision
of the approving CC as to what qualifies.
Some of you have said that court-mandated service would not get a ribbon? Who decided that?
Just as some wings hand out Comm Comms and UC's like they were candy, so is this up to the person signing the 2a.
Okay, then another hypothetical: A squadron commander announces he will not approve any community service ribbons unless the volunteer service was at risk of life and limb, like volunteering as a firefighter. "We don't give out pansy awards for picking up trash on the side of the road in my Civil Air Patrol", he says.
Still comfortable with commanders having subjective decisions over regulations that spell out the criteria for certain awards?
Yes, because, while I wouldn't agree with the extreme you portray, that is within that CC's prerogative.
We can take this to the extremes on both ends to no point. My criteria for a CSR is mine, and within my authority, yours can be different.
There is no specific standard, just like most decorations. We all know people who have DSM's for pushing paper, and people who have toiled
tirelessly with nothing. Such is the CAP universe.
So let me see if I understand this correctly -- The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up. The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform. Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function ???
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 09:05:17 PM
So let me see if I understand this correctly -- The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up. The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform. Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function
39-3 specifically stipulates that the service must be non-CAP activities.
Quoth the KB:
The Community Service Ribbon is intended to r
ecognize cadets and seniors for community service outside of CAP activities. Such service might be in a tutoring program, food bank, special Olympics, highway clean-up, etc. It would not include CAP organized activities such as airshows, aerospace education, search and rescue or any of the other typical activities CAP volunteers are routinely involved with in their community as CAP members. The idea of the ribbon is to encourage and recognize members who volunteer in their communities beyond their CAP activities.
There are a few assumptions about this ribbon:
1. That
the community service occurred outside of CAP.2. That a CAP member is not verifying the cadet's community service (unless, of course, this CAP member can speak for the outside organization, and sign the verifying letter for the outside organization).
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 09:05:17 PM
So let me see if I understand this correctly -- The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up. The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform. Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function ???
RM
That is correct. As is the case for CAP members helping out at the local air show.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 09:12:27 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 25, 2011, 09:05:17 PM
So let me see if I understand this correctly -- The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up. The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform. Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function
39-3 specifically stipulates that the service must be non-CAP activities.
Quoth the KB:
The Community Service Ribbon is intended to recognize cadets and seniors for community service outside of CAP activities. Such service might be in a tutoring program, food bank, special Olympics, highway clean-up, etc. It would not include CAP organized activities such as airshows, aerospace education, search and rescue or any of the other typical activities CAP volunteers are routinely involved with in their community as CAP members. The idea of the ribbon is to encourage and recognize members who volunteer in their communities beyond their CAP activities.
Well thank you for the information. I just don't see how this award benefits CAP as an organization ??? IF we are to make CAP a known entity in our communities, it would seem to me that we as a CAP unit would engage in helping out in the above examples in full CAP uniform.
Again it seems to me that CAP went and adopted an award that the USAF decided to do, without giving much thought to what our goals are in CAP.
Frankly as the PAO my goal would be for members of my squadron to be doing things that help the squadron or helping others on behalf of the squadron, so they have a positive experience with the CAP and the unit. IF any of them do something on their own time than let that organization recognize them. Their membership in CAP has absolutely nothing to do with their other volunteer efforts.
RM
So from what I am understanding, if a boy saved someone from drowning and gets a Lifesaving Medal from the Boy Scouts, he wouldn't be able to get the Lifesaving Award in CAP? That would be considered double-dipping as well. At least that's how I'm reading some of the naysayers comments on here.
Quote from: caphornbuckle on March 26, 2011, 04:22:38 AM
So from what I am understanding, if a boy saved someone from drowning and gets a Lifesaving Medal from the Boy Scouts, he wouldn't be able to get the Lifesaving Award in CAP? That would be considered double-dipping as well. At least that's how I'm reading some of the naysayers comments on here.
I would have to think long and hard about that, and saving a life is not exactly the same as cleaning a highway.
Quote from: caphornbuckle on March 26, 2011, 04:22:38 AM
So from what I am understanding, if a boy saved someone from drowning and gets a Lifesaving Medal from the Boy Scouts, he wouldn't be able to get the Lifesaving Award in CAP? That would be considered double-dipping as well. At least that's how I'm reading some of the naysayers comments on here.
I'd have no problem with a cadet getting a Lifesaving award in that situation. In fact, I'd have no problem with the scenario described by the OP. The way some kids are today, I'd go out of my way to award any young person who voluntarily helps out the community, no matter if it was with another organization or not. It also wouldn't matter if another organization recognized that same service. If a $2 ribbon is what it takes to get a cadet to start helping others, fine. You never know, it may catch on with them.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 25, 2011, 07:41:06 PM
Where is it not? As we've discussed, absent a national standard of acceptability, it is the subjective decision
of the approving CC as to what qualifies.
Some of you have said that court-mandated service would not get a ribbon? Who decided that?
Just as some wings hand out Comm Comms and UC's like they were candy, so is this up to the person signing the 2a.
Absolutely Right...I have now made it a prerequisite that all awards must be consulted and arranged in advance including Awards for Valor because I want to make sure the member doesn't get credit for it somewhere else and that they haven't violate any Safety or ORM rules...because the reg doesn't say anything about me adding conditions
Seems to me that this is one of the awards with the clearest and easiest criteria that CAP has. I would certainly approve just about anything so long as it was properly certified.
That being said, I don't think we need this particular ribbon, but were just aping the AF.
I think its totally appropriate to recognize community service outside CAP, even if it is service already recognized by another organization. We all serve without pay, and the closest thing we get to a paycheck are the various certificates, ribbons, and medals that recognize our efforts. Why take that away from a cadet? Let him fill that chest with all the bling he can earn.
I think its a similar principle as allowing ribbons on the CAP uniform for service in the military (not that scouting is military, just that the military, like scouting, is not CAP).
Also, CAP doesn't allow the Eagle medal to be worn on the CAP uniform. If it did, then I would say that both shouldn't be worn. Just my .02
--Eagle, class of 89