From the "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree" mailbag, comes this Air Force Times story about discontent among some in the AF about having too many ribbons and awards:
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/03/air-force-airmen-bemoan-feel-good-ribbons-030711w/
Obviously, this is something that we have talked about in a CAP context.
If you could eliminate just one CAP ribbon, what would it be and why?
"The National Defense Service Medal is what Bugg, the JAG, calls "rock-solid proof that I was in the military and breathing on or after September 11, 2001."
I spit Dr. Pepper all over my screen....
I never did understand that ribbon...i wear it, but...not sure why...
What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?
Although I've got a few ideas for the Air Force, but that's a different thread for a different site for another time.
I've seen E3 A1C walk out of lackland and get on the bus to tech school wearing 5.
Expert Marksman, AFTR, Honor Grad, GWOT-S, NDS
And ive seen them, by the time they left tech school, having added MOVSM and HSM
So they show up cherry at their first base with 7 (!)
That's pretty ridiculous, you've got to admit.
Catch a deployment pretty quick and shower on a few more.
ehh...
end of the day, those ribbons (well not all of them) equals points in the promotion calculations.
reducing/eliminating them makes the other elements in WAPS count more...
If I were going to drop a CAP ribbon, it would probably be the Achievement Award.
It's just a candy award, and doesn't really do much of anything that the commander's commendation didn't already do.
Quote from: coudano on March 07, 2011, 11:48:39 PM
So they show up cherry at their first base with 7 (!)
That's pretty ridiculous, you've got to admit.
Well, I spent 20 yrs on AD, and left with [let me count - 1, 1, 3, ..., 7], yup, 7. That includes 2 IO cruises.
QuoteIf I were going to drop a CAP ribbon, it would probably be the Achievement Award.
It's just a candy award, and doesn't really do much of anything that the commander's commendation didn't already do.
I disagree. It's something that can be given out at a lower level, and avoids the black hole syndrome some wings have.
YMMV.
I read that same article two weeks ago.
It is a non-issue. Just more of Air Force Times' muck raking.
Is it rediculous? Sure can be. But you know your history you will see where they come from.
Too many ribbons....stop having wars.
Too many ribbons....tell the VFW to stop forcing congress to force the services to award useless medals. (the NDSM was pushed on the services by the VFW and AL).
Too many ribbons....tell the Army to stop dictating how the AF can award them (the GWOT service Medal was created so that AF guys get credit for doing their service outside the "AOR").
Too many ribbons....then we go like the Army does and put some of our ribbons on our sleeves and add more danglies to our unifoms (Longevity and overseas ribbons are worn as hash marks on the army uniforms, marksman ribbon is a bloody target on the army uniform).
Ribbons......are there for a reason. They help motivate people (to an extent), they tell a story of your career, and they help recognise top performers.
Some one out of tech school with 7 ribbons.......that means he was in the top of his BMT class, is better than average shot with the M-16/M-4, got stuck at Keesler after a major hurricane and spent long hours helping the community putting self back together and then got off his butt in his over abundant spare time and went out into the community and help out his city, state and nation.
So....this exeptional Airman who is clearly above and beyond all the rest (everyone else only has three ribbons) has a ribbon rack that tells a story.
I will say that the navy and marines never fell for a lot of this "let's give everyone a ribbon" thing.......but they too have ribbon.....and for the most part they give them out for the same reason....NDSM, GWOT-S, MOSVM.
So where is the problem? A bunch of old timers who have a ton of medals complaining that they don't care about the "give aways"?
Anyone remember when they did away with the Good Conduct Medal?
The same people were up in arms about that.
The USAF can't win for loosing.
I would get rid of the Red Service Ribbon.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 07, 2011, 11:56:48 PM
I disagree. It's something that can be given out at a lower level, and avoids the black hole syndrome some wings have.
YMMV.
it 'avoids' it by giving a lower calibur award
lower calibur award sort of inherrently equals less prestigious
and easier to get
thus, candy.
IOW, where I feel a commendation is merited, an achievement award simply won't do.
performances that don't measure up to a commander's commendation, imho, deserve a pat on the back.
and maybe i'll buy you a beer (if you are of age) offline, sometime.
personally rather than avoiding a stupid process at wing+, i'd rather they fixed the awards and decs process (namely putting it entirely in e-services with electronic approval)
nothing submitted ever gets "lost" it always sits out there in queue
then make it a CI inspection item to clear the electronic awards queue (no item may sit in queue longer than, say, 90 days)
this would *fix* the black hole at wing, and no longer cause a need for it to be avoided.
And people's awards and decs (along with supporting documentation) would be in their e-services profile.
**I'd also consider adding a national "awards and decs" committee, to sort of fill the role of AFPC
this would "ensure" that all awards met a common baseline in terms of citation/award appropriateness
the committee might have 1 person from each region on it serving 1 year terms;
and a person may not 'vote' on awards being submitted for members in their own region.
their job would be to universally take a first pass at an award submittal and come back with
1. This nomination meets criteria for the award and is properly formatted
2. This nomination does not meet criteria for the award / or is not properly formatted (specify one or both)
And opportunity to add a Comment: maybe this citation would be better suited to a different award X,Y,Z
If 1, forward it to command queue for approval/rejection.
If 2, bounce it back to the nominator, for fixing and possible resubmission
Any rejection (by committee or command chain) must be dated, and noted with a specific reason for rejection that goes on record.
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 07, 2011, 11:43:52 PM
What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?
Approved for discussion ;)
The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.
I don't see a problem with that.
I mean if we are talking about elminating awards.....why not the Level membership, training, Loring, Garber and Wilson awards? I man a Capt must have his taining ribbon right?
What about the Curry through Spaatz? A C/Lt Col has his Eaker right?
Encampment
CAC
Red Service.
Heck why give out any?
Save a life.....I mean jump into a rushing river sort of save a life.......just a pat on the back should be good enough?
Ribbons as motivation? We we should not be motivated to do things for something as petty as a piece of cloth right?
No.
We give ribbons to recognise outstanding performance. A C/Amn does great work as a C/Amn he does not need an MSM or a Commanders Comm.....but he deserves something. That way we reward good behavior and that behavior will continue.
We fail to reward or reward unevenly (as the system stands now) and then we dull a great tool.
It is intresting to see we attack a lot of ribbons as unnecessary.....but what about other things....like wings. Why give wings to pilots? I mean it's just their job right?
Why give out master rating shields for CP, ES, AES, et al? Isn't that what they get "paid" for?
While I do agree that CAP allows too much junk on the uniforms (pick two wings/sheld and call it a day for Christ's sake).....but I don't think we should not give out awards.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 08, 2011, 12:23:36 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 07, 2011, 11:43:52 PM
What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?
Approved for discussion ;)
I see your approval, and here goes.
Ditch all the Level ribbons for seniors, except for the Gil Robb Wilson, go with single ribbon with attachments. Four consolidated into one. The Gil Robb Wilson is pretty unique, not everyone gets it, the distinction would make it worth keeping.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 08, 2011, 12:23:36 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 07, 2011, 11:43:52 PM
What if I wanted to consolidate a few into a single one on the senior side? Is that concept on the table?
Approved for discussion ;)
And the cadet side as well.
Change the Level 1-4 ribbons into one CAP Senior PD ribbon with oak leaf clusters.
Change the Cadet Curry through Eaker to just one Ribbon with Oak Leaf Clusters (just four one for each phase).
Change the recruiting ribbon to just one for both seniors and cadets.
Change the SAR, CD and HLS ribbons to just one Aerial Achievement Medal (add a Ground Team and Mission Base Achievment Ribbons to recognise their contribution to the mission).
Eliminate the Crossfield Ribbon all together.
Elimnate the NCC and NCDC ribbons (allow them to wear the NCSA ribbon instead and award the winners at each eschelon an appropriate award, acheivement at wing, commander's comm at region and a nat commander comm at national).
Elimnate the non CAP ribbons (VFW, AFSA, AFA and change them to a Cadet of the year award/cord).
Eliminat the silver and bronze medal of valor and just change it to a single medal (CAP Cross?)
We do give out a lot of ribbons....and we could clean them up a little. But we should not be looking at eliminating too many. We need to standardise and train our people on what the standards are for each award and use them consitantly and often.
You do good work....you should be recognised.
As a cadet I did hate having a ribbon for each and every grade I achieved, I think something along the lines of one ribbon per milestone for cadets, until the Mitchell, and one ribbon for every other milestone for seniors should suffice. The commendations, though are a good thing. They do help to ensure that those who should be recognized are.
So far as how the Army goes, I was extremely proud of having a wreath around a target with a couple of danglies on it. I was extremely proud of my service stripes and my combat stripes, and I am still proud of my ARCOMs, ICM and ACM with stars, NATO, Good Conduct, and my Over Seas (2) ribbons, so I still wear them. I am the most proud of my CIB and AASLT wings, my CIB will never leave my chest so long as I am able to wear the Blues, and even then, I have a CIB and AASLT wings tattooed on me.
So far as CAP goes, I am very proud of my lifesaving, Yeager, and Mitchell, so I wear them as well. I am also very proud of my GT badge, so I wear it right under my CIB. I wear everything that I am allowed to wear. Why? because it is my resume. It shows where I have been and what I have done. More importantly than showing others where I have been, it always reminds me of what I have done, and where I have been and the things that I have seen. I wear them proudly for myself. I guess that you could say I have a huge ego because of the way I view my ribbons and awards, but hey, that is just the way it is.
Yes, I wish I could still wear my expert marksmanship badge, and my AASLT wings, and my combat stripes, but, oh well, I will just leave them framed, I also wish I could still wear my combat service badge on the right side of my chest, I also wish I could wear my old unit crest, Mostly I want my Infantry Cord, Crossed Rifles, and I'll take my French Fourragere. I have that sort of stuff tattooed on me, so I will never forget any of it. It is more than just a resume for others to look at, it is something for you, the recipient, to be proud of as well.
I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 08, 2011, 01:45:37 AM
I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.
Maybe instead of ten years, make it more like our good conduct medal. Make it three or four years with no negative actions.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 02:04:08 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 08, 2011, 01:45:37 AM
I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.
Maybe instead of ten years, make it more like our good conduct medal. Make it three or four years with no negative actions.
Sorry, friend, but that is ridiculous. The Red Service ribbon goes all the way back to our Civil Defense days where there was also Blue and Green Service, it should remain a longevity award. Initially it was issued for "hours" of service during wartime.
Considering that negative actions of a nature mentioned are dealt with a CAPF 2b, what would the good conduct medal concept serve?
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 08, 2011, 02:36:33 AM
Considering that negative actions of a nature mentioned are dealt with a CAPF 2b, what would the good conduct medal concept serve?
So no matter what the infraction you issue a 2B? For cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.
For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 02:04:08 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 08, 2011, 01:45:37 AM
I think keeping the Red Service ribbon would be okay, but only if they upped the time it took to earn it from 2 to 10 years.
Maybe instead of ten years, make it more like our good conduct medal. Make it three or four years with no negative actions.
Well, you can almost consider the Red Service ribbon a good conduct medal since it is awarded to those "in good standing". This isn't defined in the regulation, but I suppose if you wanted to be a hard case you could deny it to someone that has had some sort of negative action on their record. Don't know if that would hold up after review though.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:01:22 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 08, 2011, 02:36:33 AM
Considering that negative actions of a nature mentioned are dealt with a CAPF 2b, what would the good conduct medal concept serve?
So no matter what the infraction you issue a 2B? For cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.
For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.
Serious issues involving violations of the Core Values require this. Other punishments involve a drop in grade. CAP is not like the US Army where the Uniform Code of Military Justice doles out judicial and non-judicial punishments.
Keeping track of such things would be a nightmare unless it was an automatic feature of e-services that reported it from e-services.
Again, identifying was an "active" member is would be critical. Some people have to take sabbaticals for life...the idea of a "good conduct medal" for CAP does not jive with how it works.
BTW, all CAP members are expected to be in good standing at all times.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:01:22 AMFor cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.
When the program is adhered to properly a cadet's reward for proper attendance and activity is being allowed to remain a member and progression.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:01:22 AM
For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.
Seriously. In what esteem is the
CGCM held?
We don't reward people for meeting the barest expectations of membership. Active members get plenty of bling. With this attitude we might as well
send ribbons in the mail with renewal cards.
Edit: Fixed...Meant Good Conduct Medal.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2011, 03:47:31 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:01:22 AMFor cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.
When the program is adhered to properly a cadet's reward for proper attendance and activity is being allowed to remain a member and progression.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:01:22 AM
For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.
Seriously. In what esteem is the CCM held?
We don't reward people for meeting the barest expectations of membership. Active members get plenty of bling. With this attitude we might as well
send ribbons in the mail with renewal cards.
I never said anything about the CCM.
I was talking about the RSR.
As I said earlier, there is nothing that should be changed at all regarding any Commendation Medals.
Quote from: coudano on March 07, 2011, 11:48:39 PM
I've seen E3 A1C walk out of lackland and get on the bus to tech school wearing 5.
Expert Marksman, AFTR, Honor Grad, GWOT-S, NDS
Yup, my little bro was that guy. I did 8 years in the grunts and got out with 6!
It is almost a running joke among some of our allies that we have so many awards.
First, General Curtis LeMay, with a stupendous ribbon rack of largely wartime ribbons, one of which is the British Distinguished Flying Cross:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyQGpH1ezO0vBkHF-7P3-Ex-cyZHR2bdtJR1ABqpMltEAXdnNI)
Modern example, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Richard Myers (ret):
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Richard_Myers_official_portrait_2.jpg/250px-Richard_Myers_official_portrait_2.jpg)
Now, I don't think any of us would begrudge these esteemed Generals their chest candy.
But when you look at equivalent-ranked officers of our allies...
Generalleutnant Peter Schelzig, C-in-C, Luftwaffe:
(http://www.luftwaffe.de/fileserving/PortalFiles/02DB060000000001/W27XRAYY609INFODE/image_small.jpg)
Vice Admiral Bruce Donaldson, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Canada:
(http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/images/donaldso-b.jpg)
Lieutenant-General R.R. Jones, New Zealand Chief of Defence Force:
(http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/nr/rdonlyres/4643810f-0e71-4f88-ac6c-8384ed69ea41/0/oh09029305rhysjonestn.jpg)
...you get the idea.
For all of his (perceived) uniform sins, General Tony McPeak may have been on to something in just wearing his top three:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg/220px-Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg)
And kind of a humorous jab at the "fog-a-mirror" ribbons...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4115/4934748719_ce09fc5122.jpg)
About the only time I wear my ribbons is on the service coat.
cool.
Comparing the us forces with other countries is not really fair.....because I can find 2-3 other countries that give out even more ribbons and medals then we do.
What does that prove? That we are not Germany or Canada or any other country.
Quote from: NCRblues on March 07, 2011, 11:36:57 PM
"The National Defense Service Medal is what Bugg, the JAG, calls "rock-solid proof that I was in the military and breathing on or after September 11, 2001."
I spit Dr. Pepper all over my screen....
I never did understand that ribbon...i wear it, but...not sure why...
So don't choke on it. I believe he actually mis-spoke about the National Defense Service Medal. The NDSM was created by Gen. Dwight Eisenhower as a sort of over-all campaign medal. It's the only federal medal that has been re-issued for various states of war since Korea. I would hope the good JAG is talking about the AF Training Ribbon. I used to also joke about the BMT Honor Grad Ribbon until I realized that in a career spanning two decades, I only saw that ribbon 10 times.
That said, I was on active duty when things like the Training Ribbon and overseas service ribbons were created. Even though I always joked about the AF Training Ribbon as the "Battle of Lackland Ribbon," its purpose originally was designed to recognize those individuals who voluntarily enlisted during the All-Volunteer Forces Concept -- no draft. The overseas ribbons were designed to recognize service during the end-era of the Cold War, especially for those people serving isolated hardship tours in remote locations. During the first Gulf War, not everyone deployed overseas earned campaign medals. There were quite a few who only earned an overseas ribbon for their service.
As far as overload of ribbons, veterans of the Korean War can have as many as two rows of ribbons now, depending on where they served.
So I don't thing there's an overload, I think the criteria needs to be re-evaluated. You'd get one, not the others.
As far as CAP ribbons, same old song and dance. How about limiting PD ribbons to the highest earned or the milestone ribbons for cadets. That's what I'd like to see changed....but then, oh no, Vanguard wouldn't be raking in the big bucks.....
Quote from: CyBorg on March 08, 2011, 06:26:18 AM
It is almost a running joke among some of our allies that we have so many awards.
I remember a C-130 nav one time telling me that a group of junior Canadian Air Force officers at Red Flag being given 3 or 4 fake ribbons by their commander so that they wouldn't look so out of place compared to their American counterparts.
I have to say, I have seen some pretty outrageous uniforms. Some with no ribbons at all, every award was a little round plaque that went all the way from the shoulder down to the bottom of the jacket almost to the knees. The most outrageous thing I have seen, was ribbons on BDUs. Now, you want to complain about awards? How about a buddy of mine who took a bullet for an Iraqi soldier, he was recommended for a silver star. Sounds about right correct? Well, he took the bullet in the gut and his award was dropped to an ARCOM with a V, then down to just a regular ARCOM. Does that sound right?
I think the real question we should be asking is not do we have too many awards, but are our awards being used for the right reasons? The reason the award was dropped so far down, was because every platoon sergeant and platoon leader were getting bronze stars, and every first sergeant and company commander were being awarded silver stars, just for being there, and they didn't want to cheapen their awards.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2011, 12:35:07 AM
The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.
See, I just don't think so.
A pat on the back is literally, a pat on the back. eye contact. verbal thank you. and a beer on me.
You can not substitute THAT with an 8.5x11 piece of paper signed by the group commander.
Performance that doesn't merit a commander's commendation probably doesn't stand out more than a REALLY good job of your assigned duties, anyway.
Frankly i'd rather have the personal thing than the paper anyway (that goes for commanders' commendations and meritorious service awards, which I am running out of space in my cardboard box to stack them all, as well, personally)
But as to your other comments I do remember being a cadet and having the constant drama of finding another ribbon rack to hold another ribbon every 2 months (which frankly sucked, especially for some of the less common ones) and balancing two ribbons on the top single bar (like putting 8 ribbons on a 7 ribbon holder). And destroying your ribbons every 2 months because you have to slide them all around to add a new one, and sliding them on the metal rails ripped the fabric causing them to fray. Annoying. And having to re-rack every time I went for a review board or something, because I have probably forgotten to add something that I received... So yah I would be good with reducing cadet ribbons for achievements, wear only your highest milestone and no other achievements; let the rest of the ribbons be for things you have done or accomplished other than get promoted (which you already have something on your uniform to show... your rank).
I feel roughly the same way about the senior member level ribbons. Although your rank does not necessarily reflect your SMTP training level. I would be fine with wearing only the ribbon for the highest level you have completed, instead of wearing them all.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2011, 12:35:07 AM
The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.
No. It isn't.
Gee...
Didn't we have a lengthy discussion about redesigning the CAP ribbon/awards system a few months back?
Quote from: coudano on March 08, 2011, 03:55:53 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2011, 12:35:07 AM
The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.
See, I just don't think so.
A pat on the back is literally, a pat on the back. eye contact. verbal thank you. and a beer on me.
You can not substitute THAT with an 8.5x11 piece of paper signed by the group commander.
Performance that doesn't merit a commander's commendation probably doesn't stand out more than a REALLY good job of your assigned duties, anyway.
Frankly i'd rather have the personal thing than the paper anyway (that goes for commanders' commendations and meritorious service awards, which I am running out of space in my cardboard box to stack them all, as well, personally)
But as to your other comments I do remember being a cadet and having the constant drama of finding another ribbon rack to hold another ribbon every 2 months (which frankly sucked, especially for some of the less common ones) and balancing two ribbons on the top single bar (like putting 8 ribbons on a 7 ribbon holder). And destroying your ribbons every 2 months because you have to slide them all around to add a new one, and sliding them on the metal rails ripped the fabric causing them to fray. Annoying. And having to re-rack every time I went for a review board or something, because I have probably forgotten to add something that I received... So yah I would be good with reducing cadet ribbons for achievements, wear only your highest milestone and no other achievements; let the rest of the ribbons be for things you have done or accomplished other than get promoted (which you already have something on your uniform to show... your rank).
I feel roughly the same way about the senior member level ribbons. Although your rank does not necessarily reflect your SMTP training level. I would be fine with wearing only the ribbon for the highest level you have completed, instead of wearing them all.
I think then that maybe your standard for a Commendation is too low.
YMMV.
Quote from: arajca on March 08, 2011, 04:28:33 PM
Gee...
Didn't we have a lengthy discussion about redesigning the CAP ribbon/awards system a few months back?
Well you know, everything in CAPTalk eventually turns into a uniform discussion some how or another.
Quote from: Larry Mangum on March 08, 2011, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: arajca on March 08, 2011, 04:28:33 PM
Gee...
Didn't we have a lengthy discussion about redesigning the CAP ribbon/awards system a few months back?
Well you know, everything in CAPTalk eventually turns into a uniform discussion some how or another.
It's far more prevalent in the "Uniforms & Awards" section. Who would have thought?
Duh, should have looked at the category, before posting.
I think recognition but all too often recognition is handed out just for doing one's job. As to the original question, yes I think the Air Force has too many ribbons. I recently attended my wife's graduation from AMS and commissioning service at Maxwell AFB and there were some guys walking around with something like seven or eight rows of ribbons. I'd ask how long they had been in and it was usually six to eight years. Sometimes a little more. So on the long road trip back to Houston I started looking up Air Force awards on my phone just to see what the heck was going on. I mean I was in the Army and most of our Sgt Majors and officers retired with maybe three or four rows of ribbons having served twenty five years plus.
What I found was that the Air Force has created many awards that are not seen in other services. I know some say that the other services display it in patches or pins but I only see that for marksmanship awards and service stripes. Everything else was created. For instance:
Overseas ribbons: All services have one but the AF has two.
Air Force Recognition Ribbon: From what I'm told you get this if you get a certificate of achievement or something similar.
Honor Graduate Award: In other services they just give you some kind of diploma or a challenge coin.
Expeditionary Awards: The Navy and Marine Corps each have one but the Air Force has two!
Organizational Excellence Award: I can't even figure out what this is for. Other services don't seem to have an equivalent.
So is it too many? I think it is. I said in another post I'm not big on all the flare and wear 'em scare 'em badges though. When I got medals in the Army I just said "thanks" and never wore them. My reward is a great reputation and the respect of my peers.
The USAF Recognition Ribbon is for winning a DOD Named Awards Program........like the Sijan Mainteance Affectiveness Award etc. Not a lot a lot of people ever get that one.
BMTS Honor Graduate Ribbon: Sure other services use other means to recognise their top performers.....but what is basically wrong with a ribbon? Only a 2-4 people per BMTS flight can get it.
Expeditionary Awards: True the USAF is the only service to have their own expeditionary award.
Aerospace Campaign Medal: This is a generic campaign medal awarded for deployments to opertions that have campaign medals....but because we are a global reach organisation you were not actually in the geographic AOR. This was created after the KOSOVO war but never awarded AFIK.
We have two overseas ribbons to make a difference between going to Germany with your wife and family for 4 years and getting sent to Thule Greenland for 13 months.
The Organisational Excellance award is the Outstanding Unit Award for un-numbered organisation. (only number units can earn the Outstanding Unit Award) So when the UAV Center of Excellance does a great job the the AFOEA.
The only debate about too many ribbons that I will actively accept is that we (all services) get multiple awards for the same thing. When I deployed to Bosnia I go the Armed Forces Service Medal, Armed Force Expiditionary medal, the Nato Medal and a Joint Service Acheivement Medal.
One was a real decoration for doing good work.
One was a forgein award
Two were "give aways" for the same thing. (there is a long history/political story behind this stupidy).
Basically the USAF wants to reward people for doing thier job in a way that seperates them from the guy doing their job back at home station. So they set up a system that does just that.
Does it make us look silly? I don't think so. It allow us to tell our story.
And just to be clear....all services do the same thing in one way or another.
I think, personally, that we have too many ribbons and I only wear six of the CAP ribbons when I wear ribbons at all. The wearing of all, some, or none, is a personal choice for seniors (and the notch of their service jacket).
I use the Crossfield as a replacement for the Yeager and believe that that is the way it should be done. The Yeager is one of the requirements for the Crossfield (CAPP 215, page 5) so I feel that it should replace it for 215 types.
We do have a historical precedent for reducing the number of ribbons when we replaced the six WW2 ribbons with a single wartime service ribbon.
I like the idea of replacing all of the senior training ribbons with a single ribbon (the Garber looks professional) and place numbers on the ribbon in the same fashion as the Army's NCOPDR – no number for Level One, a bronze 2 for the Davis award, a bronze 3 for the Loening, etc. Let the guys with the NCC wear a bronze 5.
I agree with those who have said combine the SAR, CD, OP ribbons with an aerial achievement ribbon, but disagree with coming up with ground and mission staff ribbons since it is at odds with reducing the number of ribbons. How about a Mission ribbon that replaces the SAR, CD, OP, and DR ribbon that we add devices to the ribbon for your specialties? We could keep the current solid blue SAR ribbon (award it for 25 mixed sorties) and add the bronze devices for 50 specific types of sorties and the silver devices for 100 specific sorties. We already have the bronze propeller for aircrew and would also need it in silver. Use the already existing arrowhead devices (bronze Vanguard # 7633400 and silver Vanguard # 7633600) for the ground side, and the already existing hourglass devices (bronze Vanguard # 7645400 and silver Vanguard # 7645402) for the mission base side. You could keep the "V" for a presidentially declared disaster and still stay at the four devices limitation or CAPM 39-1, table 5-5, note 2.
Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2011, 07:33:19 PM
BMTS Honor Graduate Ribbon: Sure other services use other means to recognise their top performers.....but what is basically wrong with a ribbon? Only a 2-4 people per BMTS flight can get it.
A possibly unprecedented 7 people out of my BMT flight of 48 (that's 14.5%) walked away with honor grad. Rumor was that the MTI got in trouble for not being hard enough on us...
But the section inspection, academic, and pt records all spoke for themselves.
we also lost nobody to recycle (and only 2 to med or other processing problems)
Quote from: niferous on March 08, 2011, 06:42:47 PM
I think recognition but all too often recognition is handed out just for doing one's job. As to the original question, yes I think the Air Force has too many ribbons. I recently attended my wife's graduation from AMS and commissioning service at Maxwell AFB and there were some guys walking around with something like seven or eight rows of ribbons. I'd ask how long they had been in and it was usually six to eight years. Sometimes a little more. So on the long road trip back to Houston I started looking up Air Force awards on my phone just to see what the heck was going on. I mean I was in the Army and most of our Sgt Majors and officers retired with maybe three or four rows of ribbons having served twenty five years plus.
What I found was that the Air Force has created many awards that are not seen in other services. I know some say that the other services display it in patches or pins but I only see that for marksmanship awards and service stripes. Everything else was created. For instance:
Overseas ribbons: All services have one but the AF has two.
Air Force Recognition Ribbon: From what I'm told you get this if you get a certificate of achievement or something similar.
Honor Graduate Award: In other services they just give you some kind of diploma or a challenge coin.
Expeditionary Awards: The Navy and Marine Corps each have one but the Air Force has two!
Organizational Excellence Award: I can't even figure out what this is for. Other services don't seem to have an equivalent.
So is it too many? I think it is. I said in another post I'm not big on all the flare and wear 'em scare 'em badges though. When I got medals in the Army I just said "thanks" and never wore them. My reward is a great reputation and the respect of my peers.
OK, some lessons on Air Force Awards and Decorations.
First, the Air Force Recognition Ribbon is to recognize those individulas who are recipients of Air Force or DoD-level awards. The ribbon is rare.
BMTS Honor Grad ribbon is intended to recognize excellence while at basic training. Only the two 10 percent of a graduating flight earn this ribbon. In my two decades of Air Force service, I only ever saw 10 and that includes the one earned by a member of my flight. It's not an easy award to get and there are some pretty heavy criteria. I never got one.
The reason why there are two expeditionary awards is because one is a unit award. The other isn't.
There are two overseas ribbons because one represents a short tour and probably a hardship, especially for those serving above the artic circle. The other doesn't. I wear a long-tour ribbon.
The Organizational Excellence Award is a unit award, geared specifically for un-numbered organizations. Things like the AF Outstanding Unit Award, especially with a "V" device are for numbered organizations. By the way, the Army has how many?....think two rows of them. I have both.
The Army has four service specific unit citations and they are seldom handed out.
On the AF Recognition Ribbon I saw a ton of folks at that event i went to with one.
You guys can defend all the flare until your blue in the face. I challenge you to start looking at members of the AF and compare them to someone from one of the other services with similar time in grade. I have yet to ever see it where the AF guys had less awards. Furthermore it has always been more.
I suppose its my fault for initiating the discussion with a link to a story about AF awards issues, but we're a little off track.
It seems like there is good support for consolidating the PD ribbons at the cadet and senior levels and perhaps upping the requirements for the Red Service ribbon.
Any other suggestions for consolidation or elimination of CAP ribbons?
Quote from: jeders on March 08, 2011, 01:43:35 PM
I remember a C-130 nav one time telling me that a group of junior Canadian Air Force officers at Red Flag being given 3 or 4 fake ribbons by their commander so that they wouldn't look so out of place compared to their American counterparts.
There's a fake ribbon chart out on the internet somewhere showing those "ribbons"...it's similar to the fake USAF one I posted.
Their version of the Good Conduct Medal, the Canadian Forces Decoration, is only awarded after
12 years' honourable service, or as one put it, "12 years of undetected crime."
On a more serious note, and this has also been discussed before, is the fact that the Air Force has
civilian awards and medals...is there any reason that some of the CAP awards couldn't be replaced/consolidated by these?
Civilian Air Medal (a nod to our history):
(http://www.omsa.org/photopost/data/840/medium/Air_Medal.JPG)
AF Exceptional Civilian Service Award (consolidate CAP ESA/DSA/MSA)
(http://www.omsa.org/photopost/data/840/medium/Exceptional_Civilian_Service_Medal_-_DoAF.jpg)
AF Civilian Award For Valor (consolidate CAP Silver/Bronze Medals for Valor)
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_CIVILIAN_AWARD_FOR_VALOR.jpg)
AF Exemplary Civilian Service Award (consolidate CAP Commander's Commendation/Achievement Award):
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/AIR_FORCE_EXEMPLARY_CIV_SERVICE.jpg)
Consolidate Yeager/Crossfield awards; when the Crossfield is earned, the Yeager is no longer worn.
Just a thought.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 08, 2011, 09:34:45 PM
I suppose its my fault for initiating the discussion with a link to a story about AF awards issues, but we're a little off track.
It seems like there is good support for consolidating the PD ribbons at the cadet and senior levels and perhaps upping the requirements for the Red Service ribbon.
Any other suggestions for consolidation or elimination of CAP ribbons?
I've asked many times that we consider consolidating the PD awards into one with devices or just wearing the highest one. I believe the same for the cadet milestone awards, especially since when I joined as a cadet the CAP was just then converting from a system that only had four cadet achievement awards. The number of awards, combined with the variety of devices, gets confusing and complicated after a while.
I also believe that the Yeager and Crossfield awards could be consolidated into one with devices, especially since a Brewer Award recipient only gets a certificate.
Could some of the activity and operational ribbons be consolidated? After WW II, there were three our four ribbons that replaced the sleve patches worn to show active service. Then, over the years, those three or four ribbons were reduced to one.
Also, I really think the idea of the AF civilian awards has a lot of merit if we could get permission to implement something like that.
I seriously hope that is a joke wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV. Just ask the army to consolidate the Silver and Bronze medals.
IIRC, CAPR 39-3 used to say that members had the option of only wearing the highest professional development ribbon earned in lieu of the others to cut the rack down some.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 10:34:59 PM
I seriously hope that is a joke wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV. Just ask the army to consolidate the Silver and Bronze medals.
Put it in appropriate prospective. There are not two levels of the Soldiers/Airmans Medal.
My choice for consolidation or elimination is the Orientation Pilot Ribbon and the Counter Narcotics Ribbon. How about replacing these with a CAP version of the Air Medal? I would also like to consolidate the PD ribbons into one ribbon.
Quote from: niferous on March 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM
The Army has four service specific unit citations and they are seldom handed out.
On the AF Recognition Ribbon I saw a ton of folks at that event i went to with one.
You guys can defend all the flare until your blue in the face. I challenge you to start looking at members of the AF and compare them to someone from one of the other services with similar time in grade. I have yet to ever see it where the AF guys had less awards. Furthermore it has always been more.
I have.
I will say that the USAF is a little more open with the "discretionary decorations" (AFAM, AFCM, MSM) then the other services. But when you talk about "too many ribbons"....that is just not really true.
Everyone in uniform today gets the NDSM......that is just the fact.
Everyone who shots their duty weapon well gets some sort of uniform recognition.
Everyone who's unit does outstanding work gets a unit citation (they just may wear it in a different place....and the Army let's you wear awards earned before you were even born!)
Everyone who support GWOT is eligible for the GWOT-S medal.....the Air Force just defines "support" differently.
Everyone who deploys to AOR get the medals for that AOR.
The USAF has some strange medals.....the Combat Readness Medal for instance.....but that is seldom awarded anymore.
Why not just eliminate the Cross Field award. It is just the master level for AE.....we already have the training ribbon for that.
I can't say that there are too many or too little. It seems that the group against the "large number" of ribbons are pointing to the exceptions rather than the norm. "Look at how many ribbons the Air Force Chief of Staff has!"
The same is true in CAP, those who do a lot of stuff have a lot of ribbons and awards. Those who don't, don't. I don't think that the average CAP member has more than 6-10. I've 20+ with multiple awards of most, but I also have 15 years in the program, work on national level projects, instruct at national level courses, as well as participate at the local and wing levels.
I think it may be possible that there is some of the "If I don't know that person, then they can't have possibly done anything to earn all that." CAP has a lot of background players who do a significant amount of stuff that people may or may not ever see, but it is still vitally important to our organizations success. Many times, those people get accused of being members of GOB clubs, etc when people see their chest candy - but they're just uninformed.
I don't care if cadets have 30 ribbons, most will only earn 10-15 anyway.
I don't care if seniors have 30 ribbons, most will only earn 6-10 anyway.
I guess that we probably should note that the Find ribbon and Air SAR ribbon, which have almost been gimme awards for anyone involved in ES are probably going to start to become rarer with the decline in ELT missions. There were some places in CAP were you probably could have earned the Air SAR ribbon in a few months if you so desired and a Find ribbon almost as soon as you started training. That won't be the case anymore. The rest of CAP is going to start to look like those Wing that rarely had ELT missions.
The Cadet O-ride ribbon isn't a gimme award and I'm fine with giving it to anyone that has done 50 o-rides. That is a fair amount of dedication.
My Grandfather had 6 ribbons/medals after 4 years in combat.
My Father had 9 after 4 tours in combat, 3 in VN and the 1 in the DR.
After 14 years in the military with service in 3 branches I have 29 ribbons, and that doesnt include the state awards, and 3 foreign that arent authorized for wear.
My brother has around 20 after 14 years active duty USAF and has never left the continental US...
In 6 years with CAP I have 17, with 7 removed after moving to SM from Cadet.
Thats just ribbons/medals, I wont go into badges and other bling.
The awards system across the board is broken.
I would get rid of the following CAP ribbons
Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon
Veterans of Foreign Wars Award
Air Force Association Award to Unit Cadet of the Year
Air Force Sergeants Association Award to Unit Cadet NCO of the Year Ribbon
Veterans of Foreign Wars Officer Award
National Commander's Unit Citation Award (make a device for the Unit Citation to indicate it was a Nat Comm Unit Citation)
and merge National Color Guard Competition Ribbon and National Cadet Competition Ribbon into one with different devices to indicate either CG or NCC
I would also allow cadets to wear their top "achievment" ribbon instead of wearing all of them.
I wouldn't support getting rid of AFA and VFW awards for cadets. These are awards from credible organizations to cadets that demonstrate achievement recognized by these groups. They are limited in their awarding (one cadet per year) and cause no trouble I can detect.
Quote from: MIKE on March 08, 2011, 10:41:32 PM
IIRC, CAPR 39-3 used to say that members had the option of only wearing the highest professional development ribbon earned in lieu of the others to cut the rack down some.
Actually it's in the 50-17. Kinda stupid place to put it, but that's where it is.
I'm curious to know why there's any interest in reducing the opportunity for people to wear ribbons.
It's a resume, and the variety of different ribbons allows for specificity in the types of recognition (which in CAP, IMHO = "paycheck"), including the different levels (BMV vs. SMV, or Achievement Award vs. CCM).
@Mike the authorization for removing ribbons is in the 39-3, para 3a:
3. Decorations, Ribbons, and Awards That May Be Worn on the CAP Uniform.
a. The CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual. If cadet ribbons are worn by senior members, only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn. Additionally, senior members needing to minimize the number of ribbons worn, may also elect to wear only the highest senior training ribbon earned. Other CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges previously authorized, but not described in this regulation will not be worn.
Bottom line here, I don't believe the problem is too many awards. I think people just ought to rethink what these awards indicate.
@lordMonar: I'm not clear what your definition of the word "seldom" is, but the Combat Readiness Medal is still awarded. I have one, as does almost every member of my Squadron. Just so's ya know.
Quote from: Ed Bos on March 09, 2011, 05:37:24 AMI'm curious to know why there's any interest in reducing the opportunity for people to wear ribbons.
There is a great deal of confusion among some (but not all) CAP members that self-deprecation and professionalism are same thing. I never understood it, but it does show up quite a bit here.
That said, it does occur to me that at some point having too many awards detracts from their purpose as a service "resume". Nice comparison, by the way. Just as a resume can be too long, so can a ribbon rack. The ability for people to recognize the accomplishments being displayed as ribbons is, I think, inversely proportional to the total number of awards that are possible.
Essentially, what is the purpose of having a huge stack if most people will only recognize what a handful of them mean? If it is to give the impression of "highly decorated", then what happens when everybody is "highly decorated"?
AGREED
The issue, however, isn't that there are too many ribbons. It becomes an issue of what the member chooses to wear. I sometimes wonder if these ribbon or decoration strings develop a life of their own out of jealousy or personal envy.
That's why I don't take a lot of credence in the pictures of foreign or American military officers that were previously posted because I'm not sure if what they're wearing is a personal choice and not representative of what they are authorized to wear. Afterall, I've seen lots of photos of Navy senior leadership only wearing one row of ribbons on their working tans and I know that General Eisenhower was famous for that.
When I joined CAP, one of the officers I always looked up to and admired was a former PA Wing Group 50 Commander named Maj. Don Beatty. By the time I had the honor of knowing him, Major Beatty had done it all. In the 1920s he served in a Civilian Military Training Program, became an aviation cadet and officer, served as an officer in the Pennsylvania National Guard, commanded a PA State Guard Company, flew CAP WWII Forest Patrol and missing aircraft missions and still found time to be an engineer for Pennelec, be a proficient pilot and raise a family. In spite of all of that, he only ever wore his pilot wings and one row of ribbons and none of them were CAP ribbons. He didn't need all the bling to prove who he was or what he did.
There has always been a standard rule among AF NCOs that what one wore on his uniform traditionally only representated about a third of what he was actually entitled to because of his service. Obviously, the same rule applies to CAP. Major Beatty was one of four CAP Charter Members still serving then in Northwestern PA. None of them ever wore a stack of ribbons and one of them was a friend of Gill Robb Wilson.
The Air Force and the CAP created all of those ribbons to recognize those services/duties and to serve as an incentive for others. Does that mean that there are too many ribbons, perhaps, but you don't have to wear them all.
And by the way, in response to some of the previous posts: the Air Force re-institued the Good Conduct Medal. As for the Combat Readiness Medal, you do realize that the individuals who wear that medal have mantained themselves in a contant state of war readiness longer than many military deployments. You had to serve during that era to understand and appreciate that.
What difference does it make to someone else how many ribbons another person wears? This type of thread leads absolutely nowhere. Delete this, combine these, why?
The direction for the proper wear is allready known, if you have 15 in the rack and only wear the top three, what do you think the chances are of someone complaining that you are not wearing all of your ribbons.
Personally I wear my ribbons by the regs and that is it. I wear them on the jacket and mess dress when I wear that. I stick to the regs and assume others will as well.
I don't wear my AD or Res stuff at all. I did when I came in and didnt feel "right" because I am not in the Navy or National Guard (I know I couldnt wear the Res anyhow).
I had 9 when I left the Navy, along with my Aircrew Wings, AF Communications for Joint Operations. I had 3 from the National Guard. I dont wear them because it does not represent my CAP service.
I dont demean or negate anyones service if they choose to wear their CIB or anything else the regs allow them to wear, great for them. It is a personal choice and opinion for me. But I dont think it is right for someone else to try and tell me what I should and should not wear simply because they think we "have to much".
If I see a cadet with 15 or 20 ribbons on their rack, I think "holy ribbon Batman" that is one serious cadet and say a silent "good for them".
My CAP service is recognized with my CAP ribbon rack just like thousands of others.
Wear your CAP stuff proudly ALL of it, you earned it! Wheres the harm in that?
In general, I agree with your point of view, but in practice an organization can go to far in the use of awards. There is a point of diminishing returns for awards and at some point that at some point makes them so common as to be pointless.
The general consensus doesn't seem to be that we have greatly exceeded that point but that there could be some nibbling around the edges so as to avoid getting there.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that where the ribbon is in your stack is indicative of what value it really has. The farther down, of course, the more "common" the award. (Not always, of course ... but you know what I mean.)
Also, do remember that in CAP, awards and rank equal payday. If an individual does not wish to be recognized for his/her accomplishments, that's fine. I admire such people for their humility, and wish I could be more like them. But I don't agree that reducing or consolidating that recognition is a good idea across the board.
After all, what does it matter to me how many ribbons you wear? And why should it matter to you how many I wear? I earned mine, and I assume that you earned yours. What's the problem, anyway?
Jack
Quote from: Ed Bos on March 09, 2011, 05:37:24 AM
I'm curious to know why there's any interest in reducing the opportunity for people to wear ribbons.
Because excess can become meaningless. In the case of PD ribbons, why should I have to buy another ribbon, then another ribbon, then another ribbon? Every so often, you also have to replace the older ribbons because they get dirty or start fraying from moving to another rack. I may be picky on the condition of my ribbons, but I've seen way to many ribbons that are in crappy condition for it not to be a problem. People need to pay attention to those little things too.
Quote from: Ed Bos on March 09, 2011, 05:37:24 AM
It's a resume, and the variety of different ribbons allows for specificity in the types of recognition (which in CAP, IMHO = "paycheck"), including the different levels (BMV vs. SMV, or Achievement Award vs. CCM).
Different awards are one thing, it's another thing entirely to show progression in the same area with different ribbons for it. I think the military has it right, a ribbon for professional courses then attachments for that ribbon when you complete additionals.
I'm not alone in thinking that different ribbons for Levels 1 through 5 are a bit overkill, and seem to be separate awards for the sake of building a rack.
If you could do something with a variation of one step, instead having five different ones, wouldn't you do it more efficient manner? Same thing applies when it comes to those ribbons. I like the idea above of putting numerals on a PD ribbon. Little bit of KISS principle there: instead of counting clusters, stars, triangles or devices; just read the number.
I would also eliminate some CAP devices for
some of the ribbons as well. Two bronze oak leaf clusters would say the same thing as two bronze triangles, but be far more readily available. Being able to pick it up from any military clothing, or even order online without having to wait a week or two for it to ship would be very nice.
Quote from: ColonelJack on March 09, 2011, 03:06:57 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that where the ribbon is in your stack is indicative of what value it really has. The farther down, of course, the more "common" the award. (Not always, of course ... but you know what I mean.)
I get your meaning, might not be a bad idea. Higher distinctions should be higher on the rack.
Quote from: ColonelJack on March 09, 2011, 03:06:57 PMAfter all, what does it matter to me how many ribbons you wear? And why should it matter to you how many I wear? I earned mine, and I assume that you earned yours. What's the problem, anyway?
Jack
Now that's just crazy talk! :)
I used to hate the Red Service Award because when you first earn it, it's kinda meaningless. Wow, I renewed twice! Here's a ribbon.
But now it's my #1 favorite ribbon because it's a good representation of years of service. (BTW, I have some of the most prestigious ones, too.) If you see someone with a few clasps on theirs or the 20, 30, 40 etc., devices, then I think the ribbon is really meaningful. It's saying, "I've been volunteering for a long while... I'm committed to the organization and its great missions."
ymmv
Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:
Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained. Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.
Thanks for the insight. 8)
Quote from: Ned on March 09, 2011, 05:22:18 PM
Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:
Some may feel that way but others by no means agree, not everybody agrees.
Quote from: Ned on March 09, 2011, 05:22:18 PM
Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained.
100% Agree, You earn it you wear it.
Quote from: Ned on March 09, 2011, 05:22:18 PM
Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.
It does seem to be pointing that way from some of the responses. Its almost like you should be ashamed if you do get them or strive for anything other than the very basic. I cant agree with this mindset.
Quote from: ColonelJack on March 09, 2011, 03:06:57 PM
Also, do remember that in CAP, awards and rank equal payday. If an individual does not wish to be recognized for his/her accomplishments, that's fine. I admire such people for their humility, and wish I could be more like them. But I don't agree that reducing or consolidating that recognition is a good idea across the board.
After all, what does it matter to me how many ribbons you wear? And why should it matter to you how many I wear? I earned mine, and I assume that you earned yours. What's the problem, anyway?
Jack
Great way to put it Jack!
Quote from: Ned on March 09, 2011, 05:22:18 PM
Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:
Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained. Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.
Thanks for the insight. 8)
Boy, I don't see that at all. If anything most people here are talking about the awards that they have earned. Haven't heard anyone complain about the hard to get awards (Medal of Valor, etc.), just the PD and gimme awards.
Quote from: ColonelJack on March 09, 2011, 03:06:57 PM
Also, do remember that in CAP, awards and rank equal payday.
See I guess I just disagree with this.
And humility has nothing to do with it.
Motivations do, however...
in my opinion, the following things are pay day...
-getting called out on an actual mission
-actually saving someone's life or property
-seeing 'lightbulbs' turn on as cadets "get it" and come online
-seeing cadets leave the cadet program and go succeed in real life
-doing "huh huh" cool stuff like launching a baloon to 100,000 ft or pushing yourself around a gym floor on a dolly using a leaf blower for propulsion
-flying on someone else's dollar (thanks, taxpayers!)
-hanging out with people i have common interests with and doing things that i like with them
CAP is brilliantly structured in that the work *IS* the pay.
ribbons and certificates don't hold a candle to any of those things.
if you're doing it for the bling, you're doing it for the wrong reasons
and the (relatively cheap) pay doesn't justify the (relatively hard) work
Those are all good pay days....and I think we all strive to get all our members to that level of self sacrafice and committment to service.
But CAP gets all types.
And as a leader we should not limit ourselves to a one-size-fits all motivational tool.
People are different and what motivates them are different.
For you.....I don't need to give you a thing.....just more missions and more jobs :)
But for others.....a CAP Achievement Award for doing good work at the squadron level is just thing I need to continue that good work.
I don't care why someone joins CAP.....the cool factor of wearing a flight suit....getting salutes from a bunch of kids......padding a resume......free flying.....I don't care.
I care that they commit and follow thourgh on getting the mission done. Bottom line.
While I would make changes (as I have stated) I don't rerally have a major problem with CAP's awards and decoration.
The one thing that really needs to be done is to educate our leadership on what the standards are for the decorations and more consistancy if the application of that standard.
I whole heartely feel that you should get a medal for "Just Doing Your Job" because we have so many people in CAP who can't/don't/won't do the tasks assigned to them.
If you want compare 1940's military with the 2010 military and say "what a bunch of fecal matter" Well okay. But it sounds like my old man giving me greif about using computers to do term papers......"back in my day we had a dictionary and a manual type writer....and if you made a mistake we started all over again!"
Times change, people change.
The military and CAP uses ribbons to reward, recognise and motivate people. It is cheap, it is easy (or should be) and it harms no one.
If you think your Red Service ribbon is silly.......then don't wear it. But just because you think an IMB Selectic Type writter is the bee's knees.....don't take the tools away from other professionals as they try to lead their people in today's missions.
My dad did four years - two years National Guard, two years active Army.
Most of his active duty was spent with the 4th Armored Division in Erlangen, West Germany. That was a rapidly-heating period, when the Soviets were sealing East Germany off, culminating with the Berlin Wall in 1961. He told me a few stories about the Sovs' sabre-rattling that were a bit hair-raising.
He didn't even qualify for the NDSM. I think he told me he had six ribbons (two rows), a couple of which were state NG ribbons.
Even when he saw service personnel (all branches) on things like game shows, he said "do they get ribbons just for showing up?" I have his 4th Armored "yearbook" and even his top sergeants, warrant and commissioned officers with WWII service didn't have as much chest candy as an E-3 does today.
With CAP, I have indeed often noticed lieutenants and captains with multiple Commander's Commendations...some of which they got just for knowing the "right people" at Wing/Region. Not all, of course, but some.
The BMV and SMV are a lot harder to get, and rightly so.
I don't think that it's necessarily the standards that are too low...but that too often they're not applied equally across-the-board.
Quote from: Ned on March 09, 2011, 05:22:18 PM
Well, based on the responses in this and similar threads, it is clear that CAPTalk has arrived at a consensus:
Any awards that I have earned (or might earn) are important and should be retained. Conversely, any awards I am not likely to get are unnecessary and should be deleted immediately.
Thanks for the insight. 8)
I think you have strange insight. That is most certainly not a concensus. My own proposal would eliminate a few ribbons for me, and I would have no issues with it. So the argument there is a failure.
It is highly unlikely that I would ever earn either of the Medals of Valor, but I think it would be complete idiocy to eliminate them, and I would fight such a thing as long as I could. It is a very distinctive way of showing that someone has gone above and beyond as a person.
On my own proposal, I have a rather simple logic: if you have a Level 3 ribbon, then you would have to have a Level 2, or Level 1. What's the point of such a thing? Not much, it's simply adding more ingredients to your fruit salad for the sake of doing so.
Now, a single ribbon would indicate an accomplishment, the device would show the level. Level 1 gets the basic ribbon. Level 2 adds the number. Level 3 would change the number, but that's minor.
I've removed Levels 1 and 2 from my own rack. I don't need to explain that I have 1 and 2, it's a given. Right now, if/when I gain another Level, I have to buy a different ribbon. That's an annoyance to me (maybe not to everyone else, I'll grant that). If I have to get a new ribbon, the same one is a lot easier to find.
A senior currently with Level 5 would have a ribbon rack that says: "I've got Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, Level 4, and Level 5." Consolidating them into a single ribbon would say: "I've completed Level 5."
I've put forth the idea of keeping the Wilson, although I'm not married to the idea. A PD ribbon representing levels of accomplishment with a "5" on it would be just as distinctive as a separate ribbon. I'm really not eliminating accomplishments at all, just cleaning up the way they're represented.
Quote from: CyBorg on March 09, 2011, 06:41:46 PM
I don't think that it's necessarily the standards that are too low...but that too often they're not applied equally across-the-board.
I would wholeheartedly agree.
After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine. We have ribbons based on the needs of our organization with meaning (contrary to this notion that they are somewho meaningless) for what they provide. There is a set criteria from their award and wear.
I would not support adding anymore and this idea to redefine and comsolidate creates more problems that it solves.
Leave it alone...
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 09, 2011, 07:10:03 PM
After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine.
Not everyone agrees. Hence the discussion.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 09, 2011, 05:47:35 PM
Haven't heard anyone complain about the hard to get awards (Medal of Valor, etc.), just the PD and gimme awards.
Then you might want to read back a little bit. There was a post about wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV with another award.
EDIT: "AF Civilian Award For Valor (consolidate CAP Silver/Bronze Medals for Valor)" Was the exact phrase used.
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 09, 2011, 08:55:24 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 09, 2011, 07:10:03 PM
After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine.
Not everyone agrees. Hence the discussion.
Change for change's sake is part of the problem that creates ineffeciency. Consolidating/redesigining ribbons is not a priority and represents a wasted effort as proven by the endless and repeated discussion on the matter. Some want to make the ribbons mirror "their favorite service," others want a scrapping of years of tradition (leading me to believe that their either know nothing of it, or worse, don't care), others seem to think we need no ribbons while other just want their "pet projects" to become ribbons.
I've made my share of suggestions over the years for everything from consolidation, adding devices to introduction and it continues to, after a look back, serve as a distraction from the real issues. Wheels spun gaining no ground and creating unnecessary disagreement between people who, otherwise, would be friends.
I don't think we need new ribbons and will not support the idea of new ones simply because people think we need them...I think the number and purpose of ribbons we have now is fine and, if we adhere to the criteria for award, they will make their way to the deserving.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 09, 2011, 09:00:27 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 09, 2011, 05:47:35 PM
Haven't heard anyone complain about the hard to get awards (Medal of Valor, etc.), just the PD and gimme awards.
Then you might want to read back a little bit. There was a post about wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV with another award.
EDIT: "AF Civilian Award For Valor (consolidate CAP Silver/Bronze Medals for Valor)" Was the exact phrase used.
Yeah, he wasn't complaining about them. It was part of a larger proposal to use existing AF civilian awards in place of CAP awards. This isn't anywhere near what Ned was saying -- that people wanted to get rid of awards that they didn't have and probably wouldn't get.
Gotcha.
I have to agree that there are some who want all the medals that they can get and if they can't get one, they don't want it to exist. I also know of some that are badge hogs as well. I have seen a couple of people with as many badges as they have ribbons. Seen them with ABN, AASLT, EMB and EIB, Marksmanship(basic), and driver. The Army allows you to wear everything you have, and there is no stipulation as to how high they can go on your chest so long as it doesn't go over your shoulder. The only thing is that if you have multiple badges in the same class can't be in the same area (AASLT can't be next to ABN, one of them has to be on the pocket, and one above the ribbons). That is when things start to look bad.
So long as you stay within the regulations, your rack won't look bad. Ensure your ribbons and badges stay below the top notch of the collar and everything will be fine. I know if I get one more ribbon I will have to go to four ribbons across or take one off, the same will have to happen when I get my star on my GT badge. I am at my limit as is. I will not however do as I have seen quite a few times in CAP when someone has more than will fit within the regulations, and just do as I wish and let everything ride up my chest as high as I want.
Just keep in regulations, and everything will be fine.
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 09, 2011, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 09, 2011, 08:55:24 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 09, 2011, 07:10:03 PM
After it all, I think the number of ribbons we have are fine.
Not everyone agrees. Hence the discussion.
Change for change's sake is part of the problem that creates ineffeciency. Consolidating/redesigining ribbons is not a priority and represents a wasted effort as proven by the endless and repeated discussion on the matter. Some want to make the ribbons mirror "their favorite service," others want a scrapping of years of tradition (leading me to believe that their either know nothing of it, or worse, don't care), others seem to think we need no ribbons while other just want their "pet projects" to become ribbons.
I've made my share of suggestions over the years for everything from consolidation, adding devices to introduction and it continues to, after a look back, serve as a distraction from the real issues. Wheels spun gaining no ground and creating unnecessary disagreement between people who, otherwise, would be friends.
I don't think we need new ribbons and will not support the idea of new ones simply because people think we need them...I think the number and purpose of ribbons we have now is fine and, if we adhere to the criteria for award, they will make their way to the deserving.
Actually...thanx. I appreciate your insight and you are correct. I think, though, what needs to be stressed, especially with the PD awards, is that you can wear just your highest one. I added my reservations to all the PD awards knowing full well that they exist as an incentive to get people to complete the training and make themselves more effective as senior members. I would rather have them do the training.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 09, 2011, 10:53:58 PM
Yeah, he wasn't complaining about them. It was part of a larger proposal to use existing AF civilian awards in place of CAP awards. This isn't anywhere near what Ned was saying -- that people wanted to get rid of awards that they didn't have and probably wouldn't get.
RiverAux is correct. I will probably not live to see the day when I earn a BMV/SMV, but no way do I begrudge it to someone else who has
earned it.
What I was saying was that adopting extant AF civilian awards, and consolidating several CAP awards into them, would streamline things a bit, as well as connect us more closely to the AF.
I'm surprised I got a Commander's Commendation. I wasn't expecting it.
I'm qualified for the Paul E. Garber award, or nearly so, and another clasp for my Red Service Ribbon, but I haven't even taken it up with my commander because I don't want to seem a "glory hog."
I like Cyborg's point about maybe changing some of the current CAP awards to the USAF Civilian awards.
Not sure it would be worth the administrative hassle to go that route. I'm sure they aren't set up to administer CAP's award system for it.
Wear of ribbons is "all, some or none" last time I looked, if one has the personal preference to wear only the highest PD award...so be it. If one wants to wear them all, let that stand to its own merit within the regulations.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2011, 03:45:42 AM
Not sure it would be worth the administrative hassle to go that route. I'm sure they aren't set up to administer CAP's award system for it.
The USAF's business it their own, unaffected by by the needs and desires of even the highest in CAP. If they want to do that it will happen, but a movement in CAP to replace CAP awards with these USAF Civilian Awards assumes that he USAF (the awarding authority) would want to let that happen and then would want to undergo the red tape of awarding these to CAP members.
CAP would have to have a much closer jurisdictional relationship...like those currently eligible for these awards. I don't think anyone here would make the claim we are "USAF Civilians" in the sense that a Contractor or other such would be? Civilian Auxiliary and USAF Civilian are not the same thing nor "automatic" to assume so
To put forth that idea, as if it could happen as a result of a posting here or protocol tracked walk of the chain, is pursuing wild geese.
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 10, 2011, 03:51:43 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 10, 2011, 03:45:42 AM
Not sure it would be worth the administrative hassle to go that route. I'm sure they aren't set up to administer CAP's award system for it.
The USAF's business it their own, unaffected by by the needs and desires of even the highest in CAP. If they want to do that it will happen, but a movement in CAP to replace CAP awards with these USAF Civilian Awards assumes that he USAF (the awarding authority) would want to let that happen and then would want to undergo the red tape of awarding these to CAP members.
CAP would have to have a much closer jurisdictional relationship...like those currently eligible for these awards. I don't think anyone here would make the claim we are "USAF Civilians" in the sense that a Contractor or other such would be? Civilian Auxiliary and USAF Civilian are not the same thing nor "automatic" to assume so
To put forth that idea, as if it could happen as a result of a posting here or protocol tracked walk of the chain, is pursuing wild geese.
Yes, the difference is their status.
Depending on their status, most Air Force civilian employes fall under the "DAFC" identity or Department of the Air Force Civilian," with the appropriate ID cards, pay scales, travel authority, etc. Also, most AF civilian employees never see these medals. They would rather achieve merit pay raises. I have a close friend who is at the 25-year point in her career now at command level, and she has only been decorated once -- with the Meritorious Civilian Service Award. I had a friend in college who worked summers at Grisson AFB and earned the Civilian Award for Valor once. Most, however, only get to wear the unit awards that their unit earns and there is the Outstanding Civilian Career Serice Medal that most will earn at the end of their careers. There is another type of civilian employee on an AF Base, NAF, for non-appropriated fund employee and I'm not sure if they are eligible for any of this stuff.
It would be interesting if exploration determined that CAP may be eligible for one or more of the civilian awards. You can bet, however, that you would only ever see it awarded at NHQ Level, so what's the point of exploring it.
Although I do favor one PD ribbon with devices, I think the real solution here is the "all, some or none" education of the field and then the example set by leadership. Afterall, it is the command staff at wing, region and NHQ level that set the standard on what is worn ribbons, awards and decorations-wise.
Ribbons and awards offer an incentive and a sense of pride in accomplishment. I, personally, would rather have a ribbon or decoration for an accomplishment than another plaque. After a while, plaques are just more dust catchers taking up space on a wall.
And, instead of complaining about too many or how their worn, I really think NHQ really needs to explore having Vanguard produce full-sized medals for more of the ribbons or awards. I wonder if that would change the focus.
I'm a full supporter of leaving the Red Service, and SAR ribbons, and some of the others that have 'time' criteria attached to them, alone such as the O-ride ribbon mentioned. As volunteers who spend our life's time working for the organization, and spend a great deal of hard earned money to do it, Time Matters. A lot. We choose to spend our time doing this work, not doing something else and we can't have that time back.
It takes 40-hours of ground pounding to earn one blue SAR ribbon. It takes a ridiculous amount of time to earn that ribbon since training time does not count. That means, it matters to those that earn them.
As earlier mentioned, now that we aren't running round looking for ELTs in garages, hangers, and pickup trucks much any more, it is only going to get harder to earn the SAR and Find ribbons, meaning it's going to increase in 'value' or prestige. For those ground team members who step up and get involved in 'real SAR' such as missing person search, the SAR ribbon takes on a whole new level of 'matter'. The only big issue with this particular ribbon is there has never been a standardized way to track the time spent on sorties. Units should have a form for team members to carry to document their time spent, and to have it annotated and turned into their unit personnel officer for credit to be applied.
I have a red service ribbon with a 20-year attachment on it. I'm quite proud of that, and it is one of the first things I look at one another's uniform to see how many years they have in.
I'm intrigued by the suggestion to replace some of the awards with the USAF civilian equivalents. They are nice looking, and long established awards.
I also like the consolidation of the senior and cadet PD awards with devices added for specialty track levels.
With the Cadet awards, perhaps one ribbon for each Phase, then a device for each achievement, then when the milestone is awarded, the milestone award replaces the phase ribbon with devices? That would really knock down the number, but the cadets would still show progress with devices on the one ribbon, not a ribbon for each achievement.
Cheers,
Quote from: flyboy1 on March 10, 2011, 12:56:20 PMAnd, instead of complaining about too many or how their worn, I really think NHQ really needs to explore having Vanguard produce full-sized medals for more of the ribbons or awards. I wonder if that would change the focus.
We have no uniform to wear a full sized medal on. 21 years in the US Army I only wore mine three times.
Quote from: Hawk200 on March 09, 2011, 06:50:32 PMI've removed Levels 1 and 2 from my own rack.
There is no level 2 ribbon.
CAPR 39-3 para 15c: Benjamin O. Davis Award. Successfully complete Level II training requirements. (Note: A ribbon does not accompany this award.)The Leadership ribbon is commonly confused for being that as it come between levels one and three - but it means something else
b. Leadership Award. Successfully complete technician rating in a training specialty.
(1) Bronze Star Attachment - Successfully complete senior rating in a training specialty.
(2) Silver Star Attachment - Successfully complete master rating in a training specialty. A maximum of three silver star attachments may be worn in recognition of each master rating earned.And if you get senior rated in a fourth specialty - you are now wearing two of them
When the number of devices exceeds the authorized maximum, a second ribbon is worn to the wearer's left of the initial ribbon.
Personally I think that having full size medals would be a good thing for cadets in honor guard. I think it portrays the image that we want for our honor guards (mirroring the USAF honor guards).
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 11, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
Personally I think that having full size medals would be a good thing for cadets in honor guard. I think it portrays the image that we want for our honor guards (mirroring the USAF honor guards).
as much as i would like that i think the cost would be far to great
Quote from: viperred396 on March 11, 2011, 03:54:48 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 11, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
Personally I think that having full size medals would be a good thing for cadets in honor guard. I think it portrays the image that we want for our honor guards (mirroring the USAF honor guards).
as much as i would like that i think the cost would be far to great
I'm trying to picture 15 full size medals on a 5'-0" C/CMSgt... >:D
The "real" military full size medals are expensive enough ($7 - 10 each), I can only imagine what Vanguard would charge for full size CAP medals.
We're not exactly a large market and it would take years for them to make a profit.
There are quite a few "dual" members in my reserve unit. Both a civilian employee and a reservist. When we have our blues inspection, its a nightmare as they can and do wear their civilian awards on their uniform. Some are USAF civilian employees in the intelligence field so they do get some of the ODNI ribbons as well. The most confusing is the USAF and USAF Civilian Achievment medals as they are mirror images.
I know, full size medals are expensive as hell! I try, for the most part, to take the expense of the color guard myself, as does our squadron CC. Believe me, I know it would be no easy task getting VG (VD as I prefer to reference them) to carry them. If it were up to me, we would find another source for our stuff. VG can't get much of our stuff right as it is, it would be hard to get them to make the medals right too, I can see it now, Spaatz medallions on Life Saving banner, Red Service medallions on Community Service banners. What a mess.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 11, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
Personally I think that having full size medals would be a good thing for cadets in honor guard. I think it portrays the image that we want for our honor guards (mirroring the USAF honor guards).
Are you gonna buy them for them? Let's remember costs.
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 11, 2011, 06:30:35 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 11, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
Personally I think that having full size medals would be a good thing for cadets in honor guard. I think it portrays the image that we want for our honor guards (mirroring the USAF honor guards).
Are you gonna buy them for them? Let's remember costs.
Correct. See the post directly above yours.
EDIT: And yes, I would be willing to take as much of it as I possibly could. Though I couldn't imagine making the full size medals a requirement, but adding it as an option.
Medals for the HG uniform doesn't sound too bad, but it does sound somewhat impractical. I'm not sure I would like to have to work with rifles with a bunch of medallions hanging where they could get snagged on the rifle. However, I do agree with the mirroring of the AF HG.
NHQ Charges $7.50 for the full / mini size SMV and BMV medals. They charge the same for the full size and mini. They don't sell that many as you could imagine.
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 11, 2011, 06:30:35 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 11, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
Personally I think that having full size medals would be a good thing for cadets in honor guard. I think it portrays the image that we want for our honor guards (mirroring the USAF honor guards).
Are you gonna buy them for them? Let's remember costs.
Wouldn't that be the member's choice? Nobody says you have to buy the medals, and if you do, who said you would have to buy all of them. The full-sized medal serves just as much a momento for the recipient as it would be a possible uniform item.
Medals for America offers a lot of commemorative medals that come boxed with ribbons and lapel pins for under $30. Foxfall offers Cold War veterans with a boxed Cold War Victory Medal for $31 and their business is booming because of the demand.
Given the opportunity to purchase a full-sized medal, I think people may be surprised at the popularity and demand.
Other then the AF Honor Guard, the only time I've seen full sized medals used in the Air Force is when the Commander is awarding it to you.
And as soon as the ceremony is over it goes back into the box never to worn again.
The next time you see it will probably be when you're building your shadow box when you retire.
I had occasion to wear my full size medals maybe half a dozen times WIWOAD, and that was always at mandated full dress events. I still have them in their little box, all mounted up, ready to impress no one in particular.
The argument about not having full-sized medals because their not worn again is really worn out. 35+ years ago, I got a varsity letter in high school. It came at the end of the year and was never worn. I never even had a varsity jacket to put it on. I still have it, though, it's kept with my high school diploma.
Does the argument that it wouldn't be worn again mean that you would need to eliminate varsity letters presented in the same way and academic medals given at graduation? Does that mean that you would elminate things like the AFA, AFSA, VFW, etc., cadet achievement medals because they're generally not worn after presenation? For those units which use that recognition, that would be a blow to that program.
For the record, outside the presentation ceremony, I've worn one row of my Air Force medals once...for a formal wing dining out ceremony. Those medals were actually re-issued for that purpose.
I still think it would be a good idea, even if those medals may only end up in a shadow box.
I've long believed that many (NOT all) of the ribbons we use should have corresponding full-sized medals. I'd like to see:
Exceptional Service Award
Meritorious Service Award
Certificate of Lifesaving
Commander's Commendation Award
CAP Achievement Award
Gill Robb Wilson Award
Yeager Award
Red Service Award
(and a few others I can't recall) done up as full-sized medals. Yes, they'll only be put in a shadowbox ... but what the heck? I'd pay $10 or so for each that I've earned.
Jack
Just like AD full sized medals.