I'm updating a uniform presentation for tonight - is it assumed that we are still wearing the 2-line nameplate on the
double-breasted jacket?
The Feb 2010 ICL indicates we revert to gray on the shirt, but says nothing about the jacket.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2010_02_16_CAP_uniforms_EA51A6906B737.pdf
Good question. IMHO, the best option is to call NHQ per the ICL for clarifications... The rest of us here at CT can only speculate and you know how it goes... >:D
Quote5. If you have questions or require additional information you may contact Ms Susie
Parker, National Headquarters/DP, at sparker@capnhq.gov.
As always she responded very quickly.
Two-line nameplate.
No military ribbons or badges on the CSU (I thought military ribbons had been authorized)
Only black windbreaker, the black overcoat and made headgear mandatory with CSU.
So does that mean that headgear is required with the CSU, even with the short sleeved uniform?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 09, 2011, 03:42:23 AM
So does that mean that headgear is required with the CSU, even with the short sleeved uniform?
Yes.
Yesterday was the first time I have ever actually seen the uniform, and it is too bad that they are about to be going away.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 14, 2011, 02:08:27 AM
Yesterday was the first time I have ever actually seen the uniform, and it is too bad that they are about to be going away.
But, of course, they didn't ask the membership.
They don't have to.
@CyBorg:
It sounds like you're not happy about the decision
Not to pick a fight, but IMHO the National Executive Committee made the right call.
Wasn't the new "corporate service uniform" developed with a bunch of pieces and parts of the AF uniform without the approval of the AF? I understand that it's a shame to take away a relatively sharp-looking uniform from members who can't wear the AF-style uniform, but shouldn't we do it as partners with the AF, and not as if we're thumbing our nose at their oversight over these matters?
I would honestly like to be corrected if I have some fact incorrect, but I don't want to start a flame war.
-Respectfully.
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 14, 2011, 08:13:47 AM
@CyBorg:
It sounds like you're not happy about the decision
Not to pick a fight, but IMHO the National Executive Committee made the right call.
Wasn't the new "corporate service uniform" developed with a bunch of pieces and parts of the AF uniform without the approval of the AF? I understand that it's a shame to take away a relatively sharp-looking uniform from members who can't wear the AF-style uniform, but shouldn't we do it as partners with the AF, and not as if we're thumbing our nose at their oversight over these matters?
I would honestly like to be corrected if I have some fact incorrect, but I don't want to start a flame war.
-Respectfully.
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
What most members are upset at, is that AFTER the fact, CAP changed the slides to gray, changed the nameplate and something else ( i forgot..its late) but the NEC still voted to kill it.... Now there are many ideas of why they did so...and my personal idea is that they were worried of another "berry boards" incident....
Maybe FW can fill us in a little more.... ;)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 14, 2011, 02:08:27 AM
Yesterday was the first time I have ever actually seen the uniform, and it is too bad that they are about to be going away.
INWG Conference?
Ed Bos: What NCR said covers a lot of it.
However, the Air Force ASKED us to make changes to the CSU (no metal grade on the flight cap, no U.S. cutouts on the lapels), and we did.
There is nothing on the uniform that says "Air Force" (well, there is now with the grey nameplate). As I've often said, the AF does not have a monopoly on the colour blue.
I think what bugs me personally the most is that, even with General Courter's modifications, it's STILL being deep-sixed.
It also bugs me that National seems to still be walking on eggshells over something that happened 20 YEARS AGO as the result of a few bad actors (berry boards) and that so many in CAP since then have become zealots against any CAP-distinctive uniform item that isn't grey or white.
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 14, 2011, 08:13:47 AMWasn't the new "corporate service uniform" developed with a bunch of pieces and parts of the AF uniform without the approval of the AF?
No, it wasn't.
The only "parts" of the USAF uniform were the blue grade slides and metal grade insignia. The jacket and trousers are not military uniform parts, and everything else on the uniform was either from our existing corporate stable or some other service.
After comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.
Barring action by someone before 1 JAN, that will once again not be the case, with a significant percentage of our membership, perhaps 50% or more, left without an equal uniform.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 14, 2011, 03:28:17 PM
Ed Bos: What NCR said covers a lot of it.
However, the Air Force ASKED us to make changes to the CSU (no metal grade on the flight cap, no U.S. cutouts on the lapels), and we did.
There is nothing on the uniform that says "Air Force" (well, there is now with the grey nameplate). As I've often said, the AF does not have a monopoly on the colour blue.
I think what bugs me personally the most is that, even with General Courter's modifications, it's STILL being deep-sixed.
It also bugs me that National seems to still be walking on eggshells over something that happened 20 YEARS AGO as the result of a few bad actors (berry boards) and that so many in CAP since then have become zealots against any CAP-distinctive uniform item that isn't grey or white.
What "puts the boogers in my oatmeal" is that so many bought this uniform with assurances that it would be around a long time. People waited years before they ordered it and I heard repeated questions at Wing Conferences where people asked if they were "Safe" in making the purchase. The service coat was hundreds...bought and then suddenly, it was killed.
What I also found distasteful was that many people "rejoiced" as if they had scored some victory. 1,000s of dollars in wasted member personal funds is no victory. I don't care how many of you hated Citizen Pineda or this uniform many of you assoicated with him, but a baby was thrown out with the bath water.
It should be pointed out that the CAP/USAF people were there at every stage of that development to voice objections, also, that it had to have been a consensus of NB, BOG and the rest that approved it and that all sorts of official channels had to be followed to begin its production at Vanguard, or in Vanguard's inventory depending on how you want to look at it.
I point to this incident as an example of an action where the cost to memebers was completely out of the picture infavor or potential/alleged "political infighting," "miscommunication" and the tendency for CAP to over-analyze the relationship with the USAF.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 14, 2011, 05:05:48 PM
I point to this incident as an example fo an action where the cost to memebers was completely out of the picture infavor or potential/alleged "political infighting," "miscommunication" and the tendency for CAP to over-analyze the relationship with the USAF.
Very well said.
:clap: :clap: :clap:I am one of those out some money over this...........very well said!!!!!!!!!!1
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 05:02:49 PM
Quote from: Ed Bos on February 14, 2011, 08:13:47 AMWasn't the new "corporate service uniform" developed with a bunch of pieces and parts of the AF uniform without the approval of the AF?
No, it wasn't.
The only "parts" of the USAF uniform were the blue grade slides and metal grade insignia.
and service cover/flight cap.
Has anyone ever brought up having metal grade insignia on the grey epaulet sleeves? I had some on my AF service coat temporarily (Long story) and they looked pretty good and they were not hard to see. In my opinion (regarding Service Coat ONLY), they are still AF distinctive and more professional. For blue shirts, I like the embroidered ones (since this is how AF does it now anyway).
Long Story for those wondering: ordered new 2d Lt epaulet sleeves from Vanguard. Received NCO (blank) epaulet sleeves. Called VG, said they would send me 2d Lt ones overnight. Received Metal Grade butterbars. Called VG again, was told to use the Metal insignia with the blank sleeves until they had 2d Lt ones in stock. CO said ok for that one night only (Cadet Awards Ceremony).
VG was 100% wrong.
Your CC was 100% wrong.
This fixation with metal grade is what causes us issues.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 06:15:23 PM
VG was 100% wrong.
Your CC was 100% wrong.
This fixation with metal grade is what causes us issues.
1. Agreed
2. Agreed (I was brand new to CAP at the time, thought that the commanding officer would know best)
3. I was hoping for a little more history/background on this issue. Just being curious (like did we ever use Metal Grade, etc..) Feel free to enlighten me via PM.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 05:07:17 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 14, 2011, 05:05:48 PM
I point to this incident as an example fo an action where the cost to memebers was completely out of the picture infavor or potential/alleged "political infighting," "miscommunication" and the tendency for CAP to over-analyze the relationship with the USAF.
Very well said.
I can not add anything to the above comments. You've about covered it all...
1 million years ago, great thunder lizards walked the earth and CAP members wore metal grade on their uniforms.
Since the Great Extinction of both, about an equal amount of time and effort has been spent in researching the why's of extinction and
in trying to bring them both back. Every once in a while, someone finds a long-long ancestor of one or the other and tries to revive the
species.
We are actually probably closer to cloning dinosaurs than we are to getting back metal grade.
Excellently stated Eclipse. Sad, but excellent!
Got it. Metal Grade insignia gone and not coming back without an act of God or Jurassic Park becoming a reality. Check, Understood, Roger, etc.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 06:29:05 PM
1 million years ago, great thunder lizards walked the earth and CAP members wore metal grade on their uniforms.
Since the Great Extinction of both, about an equal amount of time and effort has been spent in researching the why's of extinction and
in trying to bring them both back. Every once in a while, someone finds a long-long ancestor of one or the other and tries to revive the
species.
We are actually probably closer to cloning dinosaurs than we are to getting back metal grade.
Being new to the whole uniform issue and still newish to CAP, I understand this uniform issue is "touchy" to say the least. Not wanting to start a new thread, nor extend this thread, was hoping for a reasonable answer in a PM.
Got metal grade not coming back. Still don't know the reasons why it went in the first place. I have some theories why, but no confirmed facts.
Same with Dinosaurs: I know they are gone and not coming back. Still don't know the reasons why they went in the first place. I have some theories why (comets, asteroids, meteors, ice age, aliens (< why not?)), but no confirmed facts.
Oh, and I searched for a good while trying to find a topic on CAP Talk but if anyone knows of a good one for me to read up on this whole uniform thingy, please PM me a link.
I'm just trying to learn the issues and get a broader knowledge about things that are going on. Honestly, my biggest overall question that I am trying to figure out is the relationship between the USAF and CAP so in regards to that, I am trying to find out whether CAP messed up and USAF got mad, or did USAF want to just do this? Again, this is not the thread for this discussion so lets not start that topic. I was just looking for some quick information, not sarcasm. Rant over.
Don't fall into the fallacy that the situation with uniforms is some barometer of the CAP/USAF relationship; most of what you will get in that PM is rumor, speculation and all out lies told so many times they come off as fact.
I wonder what would happen if someone posted this as an official request to the USAF or the CAP National Historian. I have had conversations with the people in power then who negate most of the supposed story as bunk. Citing that the USAF had wanted a more distinct CAP for some time.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 14, 2011, 08:51:50 AM
Snip ...
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
... Snip
NCRBlues, what is your source for the above? Have you seen the CoS's letter? Do you have a copy of it? If so can you post it to this thread? Or do you even know anyone first hand that has seen this letter?
I don't think this letter exists. I don't think the AF was all upset about the CSU/TPU. I don't think the AF worries about our uniforms as much as we think they do.
I think the NB just wanted to remove the last evidence of the prior National Commander.
^I am NCRblues' source for the "above", as I've said before, I do have a copy of the letter from Gen. Chandler and, I do have the response from the BoG Chair. I will not post the letters because they are of poor quality (a fax of a fax). However, if anyone wants to buy me a root beer in Louisville this August, I can be bribed ;) )
Oh, and btw; it was the NEC who voted the uniform out of existence. And, we don't need to argue about this again, now do we.
can you give us a readers digest of what the letter said?
Amidst the posts from folks in the know, and some that are a bit more speculative I think I understand this pretty well.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and helping me shape my opinions.
Quote from: SStradley on February 14, 2011, 07:54:25 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 14, 2011, 08:51:50 AM
Snip ...
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
... Snip
NCRBlues, what is your source for the above? Have you seen the CoS's letter? Do you have a copy of it? If so can you post it to this thread? Or do you even know anyone first hand that has seen this letter?
I don't think this letter exists. I don't think the AF was all upset about the CSU/TPU. I don't think the AF worries about our uniforms as much as we think they do.
I think the NB just wanted to remove the last evidence of the prior National Commander.
It doesn't.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 01:50:31 AM
Quote from: SStradley on February 14, 2011, 07:54:25 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 14, 2011, 08:51:50 AM
Snip ...
You are correct. The AF did not like the AF blue grade slides and a few other things. HWSRN "displayed" it on himself at a NB meeting and then forced a vote on it right then. It was not thoroughly vetted by the AF. In fact the CoS of the AF send a letter to some of the brass about that unifrom.
... Snip
NCRBlues, what is your source for the above? Have you seen the CoS's letter? Do you have a copy of it? If so can you post it to this thread? Or do you even know anyone first hand that has seen this letter?
I don't think this letter exists. I don't think the AF was all upset about the CSU/TPU. I don't think the AF worries about our uniforms as much as we think they do.
I think the NB just wanted to remove the last evidence of the prior National Commander.
It doesn't.
It doesn't? :o
WOW....that's amazing, so your calling FW a lier? He would lie about this for what reason?
For the price of a root beer, Eclipse can find out if the letter exists or not....
Of course, he must go to St Louis (for the summer CAP conference) to see it. ;D
I'm not calling anyone, anything.
USAF directives on this scale are not secret, nor would they choose or need to make the whole situation "double secret" as has been
postulated.
IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 05:02:49 PMAfter comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.
You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 02:42:11 AM
I'm not calling anyone, anything.
USAF directives on this scale are not secret, nor would they choose or need to make the whole situation "double secret" as has been
postulated.
IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.
Eclipse, the CoS of the AF has to make nothing public other than what public law passed by congress and signed by the president say must be made available. The rest, he can classify at his discreation, that includes anything from what he eat that morning, to personal correspondence to a civilian organization (i.e. CAP).
It just hurts you to believe that everything is not out in the open, and that really surprises me, since you live by Chicago i would have figured you would be used to back door deals and corruption....
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2011, 02:53:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 05:02:49 PMAfter comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.
You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.
OK, hippies excepted...we'll never please everyone, but the CSU came pretty close.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:06:19 AM
It just hurts you to believe that everything is not out in the open, and that really surprises me, since you live by Chicago i would have figured you would be used to back door deals and corruption...
So...by your comments you're suggesting something like that occurred in this case?
(and again with personal, unrelated comments)
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 03:19:51 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 03:06:19 AM
It just hurts you to believe that everything is not out in the open, and that really surprises me, since you live by Chicago i would have figured you would be used to back door deals and corruption...
So...by your comments you're suggesting something like that occurred in this case?
(and again with personal, unrelated comments)
Yes *something* like that did occur... maybe you missed the whole pineda incident, but he was kicked out for doing underhanded things.....So you think the CSU/TPU was the only clean thing pineda did?
(not personal to you, unless your one of the "wonderful" politicians that are coming out of Illinois)
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 03:18:01 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2011, 02:53:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 05:02:49 PMAfter comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.
You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.
OK, hippies excepted...we'll never please everyone, but the CSU came pretty close.
I'm not a hippie. I just don't like being mistaken for a cadet. I have been many times and I'm 26. I wear the BBDU so I can have a goatee. You have seen me both shaved and with facial hair in the space of a week. Honestly which looks better for me? Some guys just look better with a little facial hair.
Again with the politics on the forum?!?
I will not defend the actions of Citizen Pineda, however, one underhanded event does not mean all activities were (if so, everyone promoted during his administration would be so tainted and invalid).
Again, a CAP National Commander cannot operate "unilaterally" on an issue like designing a uniform. It would have to involve a great deal of input and support from the rest of the ruling/governing bodies and accepted by the vote of the National Board. That it was approved goes to show that it had support. Seeing that people are always asking for two main things...metal rank pins and blue shoulder marks, it is more likely voted into law by the National Board because it seemed to be the "general will."
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 02:42:11 AM
IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.
Gen Chandler never directed CAP to retire a uniform. He and Sec. Goodwin wanted the National Commander to work with the Air Force to modify it; so it would be acceptable to CAP and the USAF.
Quote from: FW on February 15, 2011, 04:17:13 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 02:42:11 AM
IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.
Gen Chandler never directed CAP to retire a uniform. He and Sec. Goodwin wanted the National Commander to work with the Air Force to modify it; so it would be acceptable to CAP and the USAF.
Sir,
Why was this not done then? Why, then, the recall and elimination? Is it not too late to salvage some of it for the sake of member financial relief?
The only thing I can tell you, Sparky, is what you already know from these threads and the official notices from NHQ, the NEC and, the NB. Of course, after August, anything may be possible..... :angel:
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 03:18:01 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on February 15, 2011, 02:53:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2011, 05:02:49 PMAfter comment and adjustment, the uniform was approved by the USAF, and after that approval, and for the first time in memory, all members had a uniform choice that fulfilled 100% of the mission for all members.
You know that isn't true, and I'm sure that you know why.
OK, hippies excepted...we'll never please everyone, but the CSU came pretty close.
I think the name calling is uncalled for.
Quote from: FW on February 15, 2011, 04:17:13 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 02:42:11 AM
IF general Chandler directed CAP to retire a uniform, it should be a matter of public record and CAP record that he did so.
Gen Chandler never directed CAP to retire a uniform. He and Sec. Goodwin wanted the National Commander to work with the Air Force to modify it; so it would be acceptable to CAP and the USAF.
Well, then your version either doesn't jive with the official version (such as it was presented), or serves to further reinforce the comment above how our relationship with the USAF is interpreted. It was adjusted, and apparently
is acceptable to the USAF, since we're still wearing it during AFAMS, and most people I have spoken to in the actual USAF, that expressed any opinion either way, have no issue with it (beyond the comment that it is "bright").
Take it for what it's worth Eclipse. The letter speaks for itself and I don't speak for anyone other than me. The NEC made a decision and, that's all for now. What happens later is anyones guess.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 15, 2011, 04:19:27 AM
Sir,
Why was this not done then? Why, then, the recall and elimination? Is it not too late to salvage some of it for the sake of member financial relief?
It
was done - twice that I know of.
1. Elimination of metal grade on the flight cap,
per USAF directive.2. Change "U.S." cutouts to "CAP" on service coat,
per USAF directive.I thought those two incidents were good examples of the USAF and CAP
working together on uniform issues.
Then the modifications directed by General Courter, which are completely illogical as I see it.
Not the modifications themselves - the CSU with the grey epaulettes doesn't look bad - but the
reasoning behind it:
If the uniform's being binned, then why even bother to modify it? Why not let it be worn as was, as agreed upon by both CAP and the USAF, until its sunset date?Does it stand a chance of survival?
Unfortunately, I don't think so, though I have talked to some Wing level officers who believe otherwise.
If it would survive, I would make the following adjustments:
Lose the silver sleeve braid (too gaudy).
Use cadet-blue epaulettes with pin-on metal grade, the way the cadets do.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2011, 05:14:52 AMIf the uniform's being binned, then why even bother to modify it? Why not let it be worn as was, as agreed upon by both CAP and the USAF, until its sunset date?
This was one of the "false hope" elements that convinced many people to buy the service coat and the like. Many waited upwards of a year to get it fearing it would disappear. Then these directives came out, seems logical, slaked people's fears and they all went on the Vanguard to order it. Then, suddenly, it was nixed. Empty wallets...hearts full, of discontent.
I had spoken to Col Hodgkins about it via e-mail. I wanted to see if he had any insight on the matter. I have several Officers in the unit already buying the blue shoulder marks. He told me to just wait...and buy the Heritage Uniform the USAF was sure to adopt. :-\
Another question in regards to "The Letter" is why the CSAF would go direct to the BOG on something as trivial as a uniform issue and end-around CAP-USAF. Certainly it is within his authority, but one would think he has a few more important things to worry about than a relative handful of volunteers.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 06:05:33 AM
Another question in regards to "The Letter" is why the CSAF would go direct to the BOG on something as trivial as a uniform issue and end-around CAP-USAF. Certainly it is within his authority, but one would think he has a few more important things to worry about than a relative handful of volunteers.
One idea i have, is that if, lets say a couple base commanders see this uniform, and disagree with it, the logical person to handle that situation would be the CoS...because, well, he is the CoS and everyone falls under his command...(cap-usaf as well)
Plus, the CoS signature, and letter head, have a LOT of power behind it...
Like i said, just an idea, I'm sure you wont accept it.
Base commanders and others in the military have misunderstood CAP since the 40's - that is not a reason to disavow a uniform, though it is the urban legend supposed in this case.
There are far more overweight and "out of grooming" members wearing USAF-Style uniforms against regs than there are those wearing the CSU.
One would think base commanders would have more issue with that situation than with people wearing something that looks "similar".
Quote from: Eclipse on February 15, 2011, 06:25:09 AM
Base commanders and others in the military have misunderstood CAP since the 40's - that is not a reason to disavow a uniform, though it is the urban legend supposed in this case.
There are far more overweight and "out of grooming" members wearing USAF-Style uniforms against regs than there are those wearing the CSU.
One would think base commanders would have more issue with that situation than with people wearing something that looks "similar".
I agree with you that base commanders have misunderstood CAP forever, but let me tell you an honest to god story.
During an NSI inspection at Whiteman AFB, i was posted as an extra on the main gate of whiteman called spirit gate. The wing commander (at this time he was an o-7) would go around to all the posts and check on his people. At this time i was doing my level one after going over to the dark side (sm).
The wing commander, and his command chief walked into the main pass and ID building, where i was issuing visitor passes. I gave my post report like i was supposed to and before i could finish it up, the chief had my level one paperwork in his hand.
He said "hey sir, our airman here is trying to go to OCS". The wing commander smiled and shook my hand and said what a smart move that would be. I being a fresh A1C was scared to correct him but i did, and i said " uh, no sir, I'm studying to get my first level of PD done for CAP".
The wing commander just looked at me like i was stupid. The command chief put the papers down and walked away. The wing king then asked "what is the civil air patrol".
I was shocked. I figured this o-7 would have an idea, considering MO wing HQ was on his base, but nope. He sat and talked to me for 2 hours about CAP, and most of his questions were about our uniforms. At the end, he sounded very happy about it.
The next day i got called into my squadron commanders office in full dress blues. Man i thought i was in trouble, turned out the wing commander put me in for "top performer" for the 509th BW, and gave me 2 weeks off.
It just goes to show you that it doesn't matter the position or rank in the AF, if you don't know about us, all you see are people in a uniform that looks like the AF's but a little different.
Education is a key component that needs to be addressed with AETC. I don't know how, but people in Basic training, and officer training need to be told the basics of CAP. Who we are, what we wear, and what we can and cant do....It would solve a lot of trouble.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 15, 2011, 06:38:43 AMEducation is a key component that needs to be addressed with AETC. I don't know how, but people in Basic training, and officer training need to be told the basics of CAP. Who we are, what we wear, and what we can and cant do....It would solve a lot of trouble.
Agreed, perhaps familiarity breeds contempt. I know I never encounter these issues at Great Lakes.
But then again I ain't trollin', and would never consider anything but "hello" so someone who didn't salute.
What Eclipse and NCR said is very true.
AETC, our "parent" Command, has done a terrible-to-nonexistent job of educating Airmen about CAP.
In fact, one of the posts I read on the Air Force Times article said that an MTI had explicitly told the poster in BMT "if you see a CAP officer, ignore them." I would dearly like to enlighten that MTI (without trying to "pull rank"), who I'm going to guess is probably a young SrA who has a bee in his/her butt about CAP, rather than an older, more experienced NCO who may be more acquainted with CAP.
If that's what Airmen are getting told in Basic Training, that is a real problem.
I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services. Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.
I also agree fully that perceived/projected/unsubstantiated AF displeasure with the CSU is not grounds for getting rid of it...but as I said, they didn't ask me.
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2011, 10:48:18 PM
I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services. Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.
I have a similar anecdote: I once went to a joint recruiting office to leave some pamphlets. The Navy was the nicest to speak with and most supportive followed by the business like but helpful Marines. After that we had the Air Force which was civil but somewhat cold. I won't go into detail about the Army but it wasn't very pleasant.
Quote from: davidsinn on February 15, 2011, 11:59:03 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2011, 10:48:18 PM
I think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services. Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.
I have a similar anecdote: I once went to a joint recruiting office to leave some pamphlets. The Navy was the nicest to speak with and most supportive followed by the business like but helpful Marines. After that we had the Air Force which was civil but somewhat cold. I won't go into detail about the Army but it wasn't very pleasant.
I have experienced very different interactions with the services, not at a recruiting station, but here at Camp Atterbury. I have crossed paths with plenty of Army Personnel and most of the time they are quick to salute to which I sharply return and reply with Thank You. I haven't had a bad experience with the Army yet, but my worst experiences are with the USAF and Marines, Marines being the worst. USAF just seems to not want anything to do with us, and Marines want to know why in the heck CAP cadets aren't in Marine JROTC instead.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 16, 2011, 01:24:53 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on February 15, 2011, 11:59:03 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on February 15, 2011, 10:48:18 PMI think that Eclipse's experience with Navy/CAP relations at Great Lakes has a lot of parallels with my own experience with other services. Not just salutes, but it seems like the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Coasties I encounter are just nicer to me than most AF personnel.
I have a similar anecdote: I once went to a joint recruiting office to leave some pamphlets. The Navy was the nicest to speak with and most supportive followed by the business like but helpful Marines. After that we had the Air Force which was civil but somewhat cold. I won't go into detail about the Army but it wasn't very pleasant.
I have experienced very different interactions with the services, not at a recruiting station, but here at Camp Atterbury. I have crossed paths with plenty of Army Personnel and most of the time they are quick to salute to which I sharply return and reply with Thank You. I haven't had a bad experience with the Army yet, but my worst experiences are with the USAF and Marines, Marines being the worst. USAF just seems to not want anything to do with us, and Marines want to know why in the heck CAP cadets aren't in Marine JROTC instead.
I wasn't trying to make a statement on service relations, merely one anecdote. I have had friendly discussions with Army personnel since then. I was merely confirming that in my experience the Navy is the nicest to work with. Also the AFNG is awesome to work with.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 16, 2011, 01:24:53 AMI have crossed paths with plenty of Army Personnel and most of the time they are quick to salute to which I sharply return and reply with Thank You.
Thank you just sounds weird to me. I would just use Good morning/afternoon/evening and possibly a rank appropriate acknowledgment if I catch it in time, and continue on my way.
Quote from: MIKE on February 16, 2011, 03:39:47 AM
I would just use Good morning/afternoon/evening and possibly a rank appropriate acknowledgment if I catch it in time, and continue on my way.
That's more or less what I do.
With Navy/CG personnel, since they have so many different rates, and I don't know many of them, I usually just say "Seaman," "Petty Officer," "Senior Chief" or "Master Chief."
One new wrinkle (pun intended) in the never-ending thread (another pun intended) about uniforms is that,
if the reports about misbehaviour by the CAP Major to the AF airman are true, all of the Bravo Sierra about the CSU or any other uniforms may be moot.
It may be that the AF will decide to "reward" us by limiting wear of the AF uniform to cadets.