Im trying to find regs on this but i cant seem to find any... What Type of tie tacks can you wear? Is there an option in this? Just wondering.
CAPR 39-1 (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf) page 18 #10
QuoteTie Tack or Bar: Center tie tack or tie bar (CAP crest, Air Force coat of arms, Wing and Star/Hap Arnold
design or grade insignia) between bottom edge of knot and bottom (tip) of tie.
I wear my grade insignia, just make sure it is the miniature size tie tack, wearing a full size pair of Captain's bars would look flat out weird.
Not cost effective for a cadet, and you'd have to buy a special back or steal it from another tietac
Get a generic tie tac and wear it for the rest of your CAP Career.
I've had it argued to me...that the tie tack/bar is required.
I don't agree....but the reguations do not specifically say that it is option as it does in the USAF AFI.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 07, 2011, 10:43:41 PM
I've had it argued to me...that the tie tack/bar is required.
I don't agree....but the reguations do not specifically say that it is option as it does in the USAF AFI.
I've actually heard the the same thing, but only twice. Another thing that needs to be clarified.
Quote from: IceNine on February 07, 2011, 08:57:06 PM
Not cost effective for a cadet, and you'd have to buy a special back or steal it from another tietac
Get a generic tie tac and wear it for the rest of your CAP Career.
Cadets are not authorized grade insignia on the tie tack/bar.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Fig 2-4, #8Tie Tack or Bar: Center tie tack or tie bar (silver metallic with CAP crest, Air Force coat of arms,
Wing and Star/Hap Arnold design) between bottom edge of knot and bottom (tip) of tie.
Sorry, I didn't realize that the OP was a cadet, I guess I didn't pay enough attention to who it was asking.
Also keep in mind that the tie tack/bar is not any of the pewter finished ones and you can't wear any of the "CAP aircew wings" tie tack on the uniform.
So, that means there are several options for cadets.
There is a chromed CAP coat of arms available as a tie tack and tie bar. I personally wear the same chromed AF Coat of Arms tie tack that I wore on active duty. There are also cuff links that go with this type. There is a Hap Arnold version and a more contemporary-designed Hap Arnold type style. All of these are available as tie bars and are acceptable on the cadet uniform.
Check the BX, Vangard, surplus stores or even antique stores. Look on the back and you might find one that is sterling silver or silver-filed. You might find a keepsake.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 07, 2011, 10:43:41 PM
I've had it argued to me...that the tie tack/bar is required.
I don't agree....but the reguations do not specifically say that it is option as it does in the USAF AFI.
I don't see anything that says the tie tack is optional. It's mentioned in the same section as grade insignia and the nameplate - are those optional? Right after the tie tack it mentions cufflinks, and explicitly says those ARE optional. If it doesn't say it's optional, it's required.
Quote from: cmoore on April 08, 2011, 01:10:04 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 07, 2011, 10:43:41 PM
I've had it argued to me...that the tie tack/bar is required.
I don't agree....but the reguations do not specifically say that it is option as it does in the USAF AFI.
I don't see anything that says the tie tack is optional. It's mentioned in the same section as grade insignia and the nameplate - are those optional? Right after the tie tack it mentions cufflinks, and explicitly says those ARE optional. If it doesn't say it's optional, it's required.
OK, let's look at the logic. I'm using Fig 2-3 for ease, but the same would apply to others.
Line 2 mentions CAP Aviation Badges and specialty insignia. Are they required? What if you don't have either?
Line 5 mentions military aviation badges. Are they required? What if you don't have one? Do you wear it even if you haven't earned any just because it doesn't say "Optional?" Or would you be in violation if you don't?
There's also lines 6 and 7, but I think the idea is clear. It should be clarified, but it can add up to issues to require something if the intent is not known. A tie tack is not required with Air Force uniforms, why should CAP be any different when they're using Air Force pieces and parts for a CAP uniform?
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 08, 2011, 04:23:36 AM
A tie tack is not required with Air Force uniforms, why should CAP be any different when they're using Air Force pieces and parts for a CAP uniform?
Ok for this whole post you are using brown hole logic to keep from doing something you just don't want to do and you know it. The tie tac/bar is required, has been since I was a cadet and I am sure it was that way before I was a Cadet as well.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 08, 2011, 12:40:50 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 08, 2011, 04:23:36 AM
A tie tack is not required with Air Force uniforms, why should CAP be any different when they're using Air Force pieces and parts for a CAP uniform?
Ok for this whole post you are using brown hole logic to keep from doing something you just don't want to do and you know it. The tie tac/bar is required, has been since I was a cadet and I am sure it was that way before I was a Cadet as well.
No, I am not. I'm pointing out that simply because it does not say "optional", doesn't mean that it's not. The other items I referenced are also
not required, and that is supported by the photo in the manual. Previous versions of the 39-1 didn't require it. The most logical conclusion is that someone simply forgot to include "optional" upon one of the 39-1 rewrites for reissue (A legtimate conclusion considering there is verbage in the current one that directly duplicates the contents of the 1970 issue of 39-1. Yes, I have a copy of it.)
A tie tack is not listed as minimum basic insignia in the beginning of the manual, either. The
Air Force uniform that this uniform is derived from doesn't require it. A tie tack is not required for any
Uniformed Service (That includes PHS and NOAA, and is fact because I just checked their uniform pubs prior to posting this). Our manual needs to be clarified to show this, so there won't be an argument.
There are two reasons that it should be considered optional: 1. There is no precedent whatsoever for requiring it, 2. There is no need to require it for our uniform, it serves no purpose to do so, especially when it comes down the fact that our members are providing their own uniforms.
Of the authorized tie tacs listed, the least inexpensive starts at $4.50 from Vanguard. Besides considering it mandatory, what justification can you provide for requiring this insignia? It doesn't serve any purpose other than "looks nice."
And for future reference, I wear a tie tack whenever I wear a tie. It is a matter of personal preference. So your statement of "you just don't want to do" it is incorrect and uninformed.
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 08, 2011, 01:52:04 PM
And for future reference, I wear a tie tack whenever I wear a tie. It is a matter of personal preference. So your statement of "you just don't want to do" it is incorrect and uninformed.
My apologies then, the way you were talking led me to understand that you didn't want to wear one.
One big thing to remember about the CAP uniform and what so many people say about it is that it is not an Army uniform, it is not a USMC uniform, it is a MODIFIED USAF uniform that has been MODIFIED for CAP, with our own requirements and insignia. If the manual doesn't say that it is optional then it is required, that is why specialty badges are OPTIONAL in the manual, the tie tack is not.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 08, 2011, 02:42:18 PM
If the manual doesn't say that it is optional then it is required.
Then I suppose you wear earmuffs with all your uniforms.
I would say that the tie tack is no more required on the blues with tie, than wearing ribbons. Both use the same verbiage and it is widely known that ribbons without the service coat are not required.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 08, 2011, 02:42:18 PM
If the manual doesn't say that it is optional then it is required, that is why specialty badges are OPTIONAL in the manual, the tie tack is not.
Gonna ask a simple logic question here: What valid purpose does a tie tac serve on the uniform?
I'm asking for a justification other than: "It doesn't say it's optional, so it's required." Put that aside for just a moment, and
think about it. What reason is there, other than requiring a member to spend at least $4.50 on a piece of jewelry? (Generally, a tie tack is considered jewelry.)
Every other piece of insignia on the uniform serves a purpose. It shows a name, it shows organization, it shows the individual's accomplishments or qualifications. What does a tie tac tell you, information wise?
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 08, 2011, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 08, 2011, 02:42:18 PM
If the manual doesn't say that it is optional then it is required, that is why specialty badges are OPTIONAL in the manual, the tie tack is not.
Gonna ask a simple logic question here: What valid purpose does a tie tac serve on the uniform?
I'm asking for a justification other than: "It doesn't say it's optional, so it's required." Put that aside for just a moment, and think about it. What reason is there, other than requiring a member to spend at least $4.50 on a piece of jewelry? (Generally, a tie tack is considered jewelry.)
Every other piece of insignia on the uniform serves a purpose. It shows a name, it shows organization, it shows the individual's accomplishments or qualifications. What does a tie tac tell you, information wise?
It keeps your tie from flying up over your shoulder when your outside in a strong breeze.
The tie tack is not an informative item. To me I know it serves two purposes, one is that it doesn't look very professional to have your tie flying above your head in the wind. Two would be a safety issue, have you ever seen someone get their tie stuck in a paper shedder or anything to the extent (other than slapstick style comedy)? I have and it is rather funny to watch them pull their tie out with the bottom looking like a tassel, but it ruins the tie and can choke the wearer. I saw it happen in the s3 shop while in the Army and then he was told by platoon sergeant that is why you are supposed to wear a tie tack. So regardless of regulation or not, I suggest wearing a tie tack, it looks professional and it keeps your tie out of the shredder. ;)
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 08, 2011, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on April 08, 2011, 02:42:18 PM
If the manual doesn't say that it is optional then it is required, that is why specialty badges are OPTIONAL in the manual, the tie tack is not.
Gonna ask a simple logic question here: What valid purpose does a tie tac serve on the uniform?
I'm asking for a justification other than: "It doesn't say it's optional, so it's required." Put that aside for just a moment, and think about it. What reason is there, other than requiring a member to spend at least $4.50 on a piece of jewelry? (Generally, a tie tack is considered jewelry.)
Every other piece of insignia on the uniform serves a purpose. It shows a name, it shows organization, it shows the individual's accomplishments or qualifications. What does a tie tac tell you, information wise?
I wore a tie to the office for 20+ years. Tie-tacs serve not purpose at all except to break and make you curse. A tie BAR on the other hand is something useful and functional. Worrying about whatever piece of insignia is on it seems pretty trivial.
My lord, we will find anything to argue over.... ::)
Just don't get me started on the doubleknit tie..
Quote from: NCRblues on April 08, 2011, 10:36:54 PM
My lord, we will find anything to argue over.... ::)
I think I have found a way to settle this dispute of tie tack vs tie bar -- hand me my nail gun. >:D
Quote from: Chappie on April 14, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on April 08, 2011, 10:36:54 PM
My lord, we will find anything to argue over.... ::)
I think I have found a way to settle this dispute of tie tack vs tie bar -- hand me my nail gun. >:D
Would you like super-sized nails in that sir?
Quote from: HGjunkie on April 14, 2011, 08:32:31 PM
Quote from: Chappie on April 14, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on April 08, 2011, 10:36:54 PM
My lord, we will find anything to argue over.... ::)
I think I have found a way to settle this dispute of tie tack vs tie bar -- hand me my nail gun. >:D
Would you like super-sized nails in that sir?
6" barn spikes should do it.
Quote from: RVT on April 08, 2011, 08:33:36 PMWorrying about whatever piece of insignia is on it seems pretty trivial.
Which could be said for most of our bling individually, but those trivialities add up after a while.
Two pages so far, anyone up for trying to make four?
Quote from: bosshawk on April 14, 2011, 11:27:52 PM
Two pages so far, anyone up for trying to make four?
Challenge accepted. 8)
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2011, 09:16:26 PMQuote from: RVT on April 08, 2011, 08:33:36 PMWorrying about whatever piece of insignia is on it seems pretty trivial.
Which could be said for most of our bling individually, but those trivialities add up after a while.
WAY back before the slide on ranks (pre-1976 I think) it used to matter because when you took your coat off the tie tac / tie bar was the only piece of insignia left on you anywhere. But it hasn't made a difference in what, 35 years?
Quote from: RVT on April 15, 2011, 01:20:51 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2011, 09:16:26 PMQuote from: RVT on April 08, 2011, 08:33:36 PMWorrying about whatever piece of insignia is on it seems pretty trivial.
Which could be said for most of our bling individually, but those trivialities add up after a while.
WAY back before the slide on ranks (pre-1976 I think) it used to matter because when you took your coat off the tie tac / tie bar was the only piece of insignia left on you anywhere. But it hasn't made a difference in what, 35 years?
Nice switch there
RVT. I prefer wintergreen.
Quote from: RVT on April 15, 2011, 01:20:51 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 14, 2011, 09:16:26 PMQuote from: RVT on April 08, 2011, 08:33:36 PMWorrying about whatever piece of insignia is on it seems pretty trivial.
Which could be said for most of our bling individually, but those trivialities add up after a while.
WAY back before the slide on ranks (pre-1976 I think) it used to matter because when you took your coat off the tie tac / tie bar was the only piece of insignia left on you anywhere. But it hasn't made a difference in what, 35 years?
Which is why the grade slides were introduced. The story I've heard is that the CofS of the Air Force (Davy Jones ) walked into an office and couldn't tell who was who.
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 15, 2011, 02:15:42 AMWhich is why the grade slides were introduced. The story I've heard is that the CofS of the Air Force (Davy Jones ) walked into an office and couldn't tell who was who.
I was in the tan shirt army - at least in our case you could tell who the officers were. I seem to remember having a branch insignia on mine - even after the introduction of rank slides, as when the army copied the USAF on that one we didn't put branch on the slides like everybody thought. Then we made the officers green and the enlisted slides black, which seemed backwards.
But I still needed an insignia of branch somewhere, so on the tie tac it went. Until we started wearing mostly short sleeves, then nobody knew after that.
Quote from: ElectricPenguin on February 07, 2011, 08:03:50 PM
Im trying to find regs on this but i cant seem to find any... What Type of tie tacks can you wear? Is there an option in this? Just wondering.
The short answer to your question is a tie bar or tie tack with your appropriate rank, the CAP crest, or if you wear the Air Force uniform, you can wear one with the Air Force coat of arms, the Hap Arnold winged star or the current stylized winged star. Make sure that it is chromed or polished to a high luster shine.
There is a tie tack and cuff links with the Air Force crest that is chromed but the field on the crest is an enameled blue. Those could be found at BXs and the Air Force Museum Gift Shop but were never authorized for the uniform.
I still wear the same military tie tack and cuff links from active duty. That set is a chromed 1/20th silver-filled set that has the Air Force Coat of Arms. The cuff link crests are on an oval back. I once found a similar set made of sterling silver that shined because they had been polished. That cuff link set, with the crest set on a round back, came from sometime between the Korean and Vietnam wars and went to another CAP officer. I kept the tie tack.
I usually wear my USN silver fouled anchor tie tac with the blazer. Just to see if anyone notices... most don't.
Solution: don't wear a tie. Problem solved. ;D
Quote from: Thrash on April 15, 2011, 02:11:01 PM
Solution: don't wear a tie. Problem solved. ;D
But it that always an option?
I don't see why you HAVE to have one. I would say you don't HAVE to have it. But, others say you do, and some say you don't...
We are gonna fight over anything and everything. also im all for a tie tack i think tie bars look bad only thing about tie tacks i hate is that it keeps spinning around.
Thought that this thread wouldof been dead by now???
Quote from: ElectricPenguin on April 27, 2011, 04:36:23 PM
Thought that this thread wouldof been dead by now???
it doesnt matter how long its been sense someone replied as long as people answers questions on the forum
Who wants to start the countdown?
(http://members.cox.net/xanadu99/CAP/countdown.gif)
Is that Kesha? Nope, just Mike with the lock.
Check your messages.
If you look up a few posts, you will see a little countdown clock. That's a hint that the thread is getting close to the time when it gets locked - no more posts because it has drifted grossly off topic, or the original purpose has been achieved, or it has just degenerated into essentially nonsense, like this one.
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