A friend of mine just came back from National HQ CAP, and in chatting it up with some HQ people, he got a look at some proposed uniform changes going to the NB.
WARNING: Some of you may not like them.
Change 1: The "White and Grays" and "White and Blues" will BOTH go away within 24 months after the new regulation takes effect.
Change 1a: The ONLY corporate uniforms will be the Blazer Combo and a revitalized Guyaberra Shirt (The uniform formerly known by the perjorative "Mexican Wedding Shirt.") A white shirt worn outside the gray pants with a blazer-type nametag. The new Guyaberra shirt will be worn with gray epaulet slides.
Change 2: The BDU and the Blue BDU will go away, but we will have 30 months wear-out time for these.
Change 2a: The old light-blue "Smurf Suit" coverall will be the only field uniform for all CAP personnel
I'm sure there could be a 2b joke inserted here somewhere...
Nice try.
(http://hippiekiller.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/troll.jpg)
Looks like a 2012 doomsday prophecy! >:D
Doesnt make any sense to me.
Hey, the winter board meeting is NOT held on April 1....
Ahhh, I love CapTalk! ;D
if they get rid of BDU's what will cadets wear, blues all the time? how will cadets participate in SAR?
if this goes through ill gladly let my membership go the way of the bdu's
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 11, 2011, 08:35:11 PM
if they get rid of BDU's what will cadets wear, blues all the time? how will cadets participate in SAR?
if this goes through ill gladly let my membership go the way of the bdu's
I suspect its a joke. But if not, they are all unwise decisions!
This is a load, everyone knows Kach has a bad sense of humor >:D.
Well if this happens then NHQ will see numbers drop like a hippo carrying a boulder trying to fly. Then everything will go back to the way it was.
If the BDU is going away it is because the ABU is coming in and either no one told Kach or he is just omitting that part to rile people up. We have all seen NHQ make bad decisions before, but nothing this bad, and when they do they usually correct them rather quickly.
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 11, 2011, 08:35:11 PM
if they get rid of BDU's what will cadets wear, blues all the time? how will cadets participate in SAR?
Whether it's a joke or not, try reading the next line down from where you stopped:
QuoteChange 2: The BDU and the Blue BDU will go away, but we will have 30 months wear-out time for these.
Change 2a: The old light-blue "Smurf Suit" coverall will be the only field uniform for all CAP personnel
Emphasis mine.
Ned where are you?
I know this really isn't your field, but your higher up and know better.
Ned where are you? >:D
QuoteWhether it's a joke or not, try reading the next line down from where you stopped:
Quote
Change 2: The BDU and the Blue BDU will go away, but we will have 30 months wear-out time for these.
Change 2a: The old light-blue "Smurf Suit" coverall will be the only field uniform for all CAP personnel
Emphasis mine.
so every cadet will need to go to their parents and say "mom/dad etc, i have to buy a flight suit if i want to do SAR in cap".
The costs would be astronomic. our membership numbers would plunge and CAP would sink into oblivion.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 11, 2011, 08:01:56 PM
A friend of mine just came back from National HQ CAP, and in chatting it up with some HQ people, he got a look at some proposed uniform changes going to the NB.
Emphasis mine.
The key word there is proposed anyways. Do you really think enough NB members would be ok with all of this? So, think about it for a second.
I honestly wouldn't put it past them. I didn't think they would ever kill the hock shop either.
Slow down there, hoss.
The "smurf suit" is NOT a flight suit, with its attendant costs. The current blue utility uniform only costs $44, which is cheaper than a set of BDUs.
Quote from: SABRE17 on January 11, 2011, 09:40:22 PM
I honestly wouldn't put it past them. I didn't think they would ever kill the hock shop either.
I could almost agree with the whole hock shop ordeal. I can understand a cost issue and having CAP uniforms going through one company. What I don't understand is why they went with a 90th rate company like VG. VG is lucky at best when they get orders right. Heck they are under a contract to carry EVERYTHING CAP has, and they can't even do that. They say they can't find anyone to make a certain something and I find it within twenty minutes of searching on Google.
But I don't think anyone would really go for this. Besides, it says that everything is changing except for the USAF style service dress, why would that be the only one we keep when SUPPOSEDLY (I put strong emphasis on that) that is the uniform that is causing issues with USAF and civilians? I don't believe any of this other than BDU going away. The only reason I believe BDU going away is because of ABU coming in.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 11, 2011, 09:45:48 PM
Slow down there, hoss.
The "smurf suit" is NOT a flight suit, with its attendant costs. The current blue utility uniform only costs $44, which is cheaper than a set of BDUs.
If I was a cadet. There would be no pride in wearing the utility coveralls compared to the BDUs or ABUs with rank insignia and patches on them. Especially if you are hoping that some of the cadets will join the active duty military when they are 18.
You know what? You wear what you have to wear.
WIWAC, we were involved in a major uniform change or two, which seemed expensive at the time, and took away a couple of uniforms that we thought were kool. But we did the "salute and execute" trick, and moved on. It didn't make us any less able to be members or be proud of our participation.
WIWOAD in the Navy, we were involved in uniform changes, into what became very unpopular uniforms, and it didn't make us any less as sailors. I could still do my job.
If this actually happens, which I seriously doubt, suck it up, and get on with business.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 11, 2011, 08:01:56 PM
Change 1: The "White and Grays" and "White and Blues" will BOTH go away within 24 months after the new regulation takes effect.
Change 1a: The ONLY corporate uniforms will be the Blazer Combo and a revitalized Guyaberra Shirt (The uniform formerly known by the perjorative "Mexican Wedding Shirt.") A white shirt worn outside the gray pants with a blazer-type nametag. The new Guyaberra shirt will be worn with gray epaulet slides.
So if the white aviator shirt/gray slacks combo disappears, all thats left for fuzzie faces (beards and goatees) is the polo shirt and gray slacks combo. Correct? Then no uniform for us to wear our ribbons on. :-\
The white aviator shirt/AF blues pants combo has already been decided to phase out. Correct?
Guyaberra Shirt combo is lame. :)
Quote from: SarDragon on January 11, 2011, 10:26:59 PM
You know what? You wear what you have to wear.
WIWAC, we were involved in a major uniform change or two, which seemed expensive at the time, and took away a couple of uniforms that we thought were kool. But we did the "salute and execute" trick, and moved on. It didn't make us any less able to be members or be proud of our participation.
WIWOAD in the Navy, we were involved in uniform changes, into what became very unpopular uniforms, and it didn't make us any less as sailors. I could still do my job.
If this actually happens, which I seriously doubt, suck it up, and get on with business.
Here is the thing that, surprisingly, many don't understand. If this were to happen there would be no getting on with business. Civil Air Patrol as it is will be gone, no more, dead, deceased, gone to meet it's maker and join the choir invisible. There would be no association with USAF as we have now. SAR callups will slow way down.
Then there is the issue that I have with it. I will leave CAP if this happens, not because I want to wear the uniform, I could wear Army Dress Blues with full swinging medals every day if I want to, the problem is that there is history and heritage between CAP/USAF. Any grip that we have to that history and tradition would leave along with the association with USAF that everyone sees while we are in the uniform. I believe the BOG will see this too and decide against these changes.
There won't be a day where I wear a jumpsuit while doing ground team work no matter what color, pattern, or patches are on it. Just not practical.
I guarantee that there is not enough votes on the NB for all these changes. Plus then the AF has to sign off on them.
Its just not ganna happen people. Not at all....
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 11, 2011, 08:01:56 PMChange 2a: The old light-blue "Smurf Suit" coverall will be the only field uniform for all CAP personnel
The utility coveralls are dark blue. So what is "the old light-blue" ones?
Utility Uniform - Dark blue...
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/0000000CAP0996_MED.jpg)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_440_453&products_id=7763 (http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_440_453&products_id=7763)
Quote from: BradM on January 11, 2011, 10:51:29 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 11, 2011, 08:01:56 PMChange 2a: The old light-blue "Smurf Suit" coverall will be the only field uniform for all CAP personnel
The utility coveralls are dark blue. So what is "the old light-blue" ones?
Utility Uniform - Dark blue...
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/0000000CAP0996_MED.jpg)
http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_440_453&products_id=7763 (http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_440_453&products_id=7763)
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/4/4f/68_1.jpg)
Key words being old and smurf suit. According to our very own Maj. Corway at http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx in an article I believe to be ripped from CadetStuff, they were around in the 80s and 90s.
Quote from: NCRblues on January 11, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
I guarantee that there is not enough votes on the NB for all these changes. Plus then the AF has to sign off on them.
Its just not ganna happen people. Not at all....
Why would the Air Force care if we stop wearing a uniform??? ???
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 11, 2011, 10:57:39 PM
Key words being old and smurf suit. According to our very own Maj. Corway at http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx (http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx) in an article I believe to be ripped from CadetStuff, they were around in the 80s and 90s.
Oh, it even goes back to the '70s. I don't recall when it was introduced, but I still have an olde order blank that I never sent in, dated 1977.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 11, 2011, 10:57:39 PM
http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx (http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx)
I just noticed what page you linked to. I need to remind the group commander that it needs to come down. Long story. Short version is: there is not nor ever has been Elkhart unit.
I suspect that Oberstleutnant Kachenmeister, God bless him, is trying to have a little fun with all the sometimes-heated uniform topics on CAPTalk.
The good Lieutenant Colonel has a rather dry sense of humour.
It would cost beaucoup $$$ to bring the guyabera shirt back and the Smurf suit...especially since the latter would have to be remanufactured.
I only ever saw three people wearing the Smurf suit:
One person in my squadron who didn't want to shell out for other uniforms
Another person in my squadron who got it imposed punitively for constantly wearing the AF uniform filthy
An IC (Major) who was clearly out of H/W restrictions.
If there would be any truth at all to this, NB would have to know that it would be the end of CAP, period.
I would certainly be putting in my paperwork for retirement.
Quote from: PHall on January 12, 2011, 01:01:21 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on January 11, 2011, 10:47:16 PM
I guarantee that there is not enough votes on the NB for all these changes. Plus then the AF has to sign off on them.
Its just not ganna happen people. Not at all....
Why would the Air Force care if we stop wearing a uniform??? ???
Maybe you missed the whole CSU/TPU debacle, but in the aftermath the AF said ALL unifrom changes must be approved by them so... unless i have lost my mind, stopping a certain line of uniforms and forcing all members to another one....would be a "change"....
Quote from: RiverAux on January 11, 2011, 10:46:50 PM
There won't be a day where I wear a jumpsuit while doing ground team work no matter what color, pattern, or patches are on it. Just not practical.
The jumpsuit is one of the best suited, most comfortable uniforms for the type of ground ops CAP does.
I suspect that Kach is sitting in his recliner in Florida, tipping a cool one and laughing his fourth point of contact off at all of the reaction to his post.
Go get em, Kach!!!!
Quote from: bosshawk on January 12, 2011, 02:22:01 AM
I suspect that Kach is sitting in his recliner in Florida, tipping a cool one and laughing his fourth point of contact off at all of the reaction to his post.
Go get em, Kach!!!!
He didn't fool me! ;)
Quote from: Eclipse on January 12, 2011, 02:14:07 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 11, 2011, 10:46:50 PM
There won't be a day where I wear a jumpsuit while doing ground team work no matter what color, pattern, or patches are on it. Just not practical.
The jumpsuit is one of the best suited, most comfortable uniforms for the type of ground ops CAP does.
As someone who spends a lot of their professional life in the outdoors, I'd respectfully disagree.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 11, 2011, 10:57:39 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/4/4f/68_1.jpg)
Key words being old and smurf suit. According to our very own Maj. Corway at http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx in an article I believe to be ripped from CadetStuff, they were around in the 80s and 90s.
I remember Don Knotts used to wear one of those on Three's Company. Looked pretty sharp with those white loafers. ::)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yjlXWzFo4o8/TLLfsMQ39hI/AAAAAAAAAns/tAHmQNSUfgA/s320/mr+furley.jpg)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 11, 2011, 09:14:05 PM
This is a load, everyone knows Kach has a bad sense of humor >:D.
Some might call it a "sick" sense of humor.
Ey! Wha' kine pakalolo dey smokin' at Max-hell?!?!? (I know... Herr Oberstleutnant Kachenmeister was really pulling our leg!)
If such a lame-brained action came to pass (and it really won't), it won't be long before Civil Air Patrol will wind up a footnote in the history books. So kick back, relax with a cold beer or three or four, and chant that ancient Hawaiian battle cry: SUCK 'EM UP!!!!
I know you guys think I'm kidding, but I'm not. Accusing me of a practical joke looks like wishful thinking on your part. These changes were initiated by CAP-USAF, and I JUST found out at the squadron meeting last night that they don't stop there.
The Air Force style uniform will be changed as well:
AF Change 1: Bright red (officially- scarlet) sewn-on epaulets and officer sleeve braids, with metal rank devices on the epaulet (which might make some folks happy).
AF Change 2: Red and white chevrons for NCO's. They'll look like AF stripes, but be red instead of blue.
Vanguard has already been told to gear up a conversion kit for the AF blue jacket. The shirt will just have red epaulet sleeves. I don't know yet if the "CAP" letters will be on the new red epaulet sleeves or not.
The Air Force is calling it the "Civil Air Patrol Heritage Initiative" (CAP-HI) to hark back to our original uniform.
[sigh] More uniform purchases. I spend more money on my CAP uniforms than my civilian clothes a year. Maybe a slight exaggeration, but not by too much. No one get me started on the corporate service coat...
I tell ya, wearing only the polo 100% of the time is becoming more attractive. If Vanguard got the IT specialty track badge for it (they have most of them, but not all yet last I checed), I probably would. I wear what the cadets wear for esprit de corp (and what my CC tells me!), but the incessant changes are tiring. At least the polo hasn't changed much since I joined.
Might not be so bad if there was a uniform program for seniors like there is for cadets, but most of the time, we're on the hook for the whole enchilada. Sure, we might get a BDU here or a boot there, but the cadets get first dibs on the uniforms.
We're working for the USAF one way or another (either directly on AFAMs or indirectly by training many of their future AD and Reserve members), couldn't we get some help?
I'm guessing if NHQ staff was willing to talk, they were doing it to possibly head it off before it actually occurred? I found a photo of a white Guayabera shirt with brown trousers.
http://www.tasteofcuba.com/mexican_wedding_shirt.jpg (http://www.tasteofcuba.com/mexican_wedding_shirt.jpg)
Imagining this with grey rank slides, trousers, and blazer nameplate, PUKE. This even sucks out the aviation look of the white and greys.
And, polo shirts are not a uniform. They are casual wear. Southwest Airlines started wearing them, to look casual, up next to the other air carriers who still wear button up shirts and blazers.
Respectfully,
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 12, 2011, 01:40:10 PM
I know you guys think I'm kidding, but I'm not. Accusing me of a practical joke looks like wishful thinking on your part. These changes were initiated by CAP-USAF, and I JUST found out at the squadron meeting last night that they don't stop there.
The Air Force style uniform will be changed as well:
AF Change 1: Bright red (officially- scarlet) sewn-on epaulets and officer sleeve braids, with metal rank devices on the epaulet (which might make some folks happy).
AF Change 2: Red and white chevrons for NCO's. They'll look like AF stripes, but be red instead of blue.
Vanguard has already been told to gear up a conversion kit for the AF blue jacket. The shirt will just have red epaulet sleeves. I don't know yet if the "CAP" letters will be on the new red epaulet sleeves or not.
The Air Force is calling it the "Civil Air Patrol Heritage Initiative" (CAP-HI) to hark back to our original uniform.
Will all the airplanes also be painted yellow in keeping with a heritage initiative?
Well like I said, if this happens, I won't be around, and many others won't be either. CAP won't be CAP The USAF Aux. It will be those weird guys who shouldn't be allowed to dress themselves.
This will kill anything and everything CAP has going for it, its history, its future, heck I bet the police would be embarrassed to work with us.
I realize and respect our heritage, but come on, no teenager would be caught dead in a smurf suit, so there goes cadets in SAR, along with everyone else. just because we wore a uniform in WWII doesn't mean we have to wear it now. Id rather wear a service uniform on a UDF hunt then look like a blueberry in a reflective vest...
perhaps JohnKachenmeister can provide some supporting documents to said changes?
^^^^
Should something like this ever come to pass I doubt it would involve cadets except those over 18 who don't meet Ht/Wt standards.
well the initial post said "the only field uniform will be the blue jumpsuit". i was assuming that all of these "changes apply to cadets as well.
hence request for supporting documents
there's a reason I only check into CAP-Talk about once a week. This thread is a primo example.
The initial pass on the OP's message failed my smell check so quickly that it wasn't even funny.
I would believe a post that said "CAP getting King Airs" before this one.
I haven't read the 4-5 pages of in-between materials, cuz I know what it all says. Really.
But but.. the OP came back and said it's true!! it must be!! because I read it here!
So, come on, whats the Kach?
The whole uniform thing is a bunch of bunk. If there is any uniformity at all, it's that it's going to be surrounded on controversy forever. There will be mid-east peace first.
If there is any truth to these, find out when the dates are, so I can figure up my years of service to at least get a certificate of retirement.
No way will I wear any of this shineola.
If there is any truth to this, it must be the Air Force punishing us for the CSU/TPU.
Guys, if there is any truth to this, I probably would have heard something on my "other grapevine".
Methinks Kach was given information that may have been more "BS" than "RS".
If, the Air Force wishes us to go through with such changes, it will be due to many other issues; least of which being the "CSU". :o
I just bought a new set of bbdu. I certainly would prefer to use it as a cap uniform then paintball gear.
Quote from: FW on January 12, 2011, 05:32:29 PM
Guys, if there is any truth to this, I probably would have heard something on my "other grapevine".
Methinks Kach was given information that may have been more "BS" than "RS".
He wasn't "given any information", he made it up out of whole cloth (pun intended).
I found out that they are going to be calling the Tropical Utility Uniform "The Jack Lalanne Heritage Uniform" and it is worn as seen here by Jack himself:
(http://santamonicacloseup.com/storage/DSC_4214%20jack.jpg)
Here was Jack earlier in the year in discussion with a Coast Guard Aux rep, trying to get them to jump on the bandwagon prior to the commitment from the CAP.
(http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2007/08_10_2007/images/milestonesPic1.jpg)
Good thing is Vanguard is going to give away a free Jack Lalanne Juicer with every new utility uniform sold!
Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 12, 2011, 03:49:33 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 11, 2011, 10:57:39 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/4/4f/68_1.jpg)
Key words being old and smurf suit. According to our very own Maj. Corway at http://elkhartcap.com/CAPUniformHistory.aspx in an article I believe to be ripped from CadetStuff, they were around in the 80s and 90s.
I remember Don Knotts used to wear one of those on Three's Company. Looked pretty sharp with those white loafers. ::)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yjlXWzFo4o8/TLLfsMQ39hI/AAAAAAAAAns/tAHmQNSUfgA/s320/mr+furley.jpg)
I think the neck scarf should be added as well!! ;D
Besides, more BS pointers: Are not "whites and blues" already going away, so to say that there is another "24 months" after a regulation takes effect...
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 12, 2011, 01:40:10 PM
I know you guys think I'm kidding, but I'm not. Accusing me of a practical joke looks like wishful thinking on your part. These changes were initiated by CAP-USAF, and I JUST found out at the squadron meeting last night that they don't stop there.
The Air Force style uniform will be changed as well:
AF Change 1: Bright red (officially- scarlet) sewn-on epaulets and officer sleeve braids, with metal rank devices on the epaulet (which might make some folks happy).
AF Change 2: Red and white chevrons for NCO's. They'll look like AF stripes, but be red instead of blue.
Vanguard has already been told to gear up a conversion kit for the AF blue jacket. The shirt will just have red epaulet sleeves. I don't know yet if the "CAP" letters will be on the new red epaulet sleeves or not.
The Air Force is calling it the "Civil Air Patrol Heritage Initiative" (CAP-HI) to hark back to our original uniform.
Ahem... shoulder marks, not epaulet sleeves! ;D
Hard rank on service dress... it's about time we get it back!
RUMINT has a tendency to be true... Lord knows, the Kwajalein 'coconut telegraph' (our rumor mill) gets news faster than the official base propaganda organ, the Hourglass! Sounds plausible but I'll believe it when I see it in the regs.
If the uniform is distinctive enough so that we don't get confused with the RealAirForce® (and current AF height/weight standards favor the skinny), then they should relax further the height-weight standards, say to 15 or 20%, with commander judgment on whether a member presents a military appearance. Otherwise, it's to the CAP distinctives. Perhaps make all members sign an agreement that they will follow the uniform standards and that they will revert to 'corporates' if they fall outside the standard.
Food for thought... I gotta go to work!
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 12, 2011, 06:57:36 PM
RUMINT has a tendency to be true...
If it is in this case, the seeds of the final destruction of Civil Air Patrol are sown.
Once again, i say this will never come to pass. Most of the NB knows this will doom a lot of cadets and SM's to simply hang it up and walk out the door. I think the NB members know that and wont vote for it. (if its even going to be on the agenda anyway).
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 12, 2011, 01:40:10 PM
I know you guys think I'm kidding, but I'm not. Accusing me of a practical joke looks like wishful thinking on your part. These changes were initiated by CAP-USAF, and I JUST found out at the squadron meeting last night that they don't stop there.
The Air Force style uniform will be changed as well:
AF Change 1: Bright red (officially- scarlet) sewn-on epaulets and officer sleeve braids, with metal rank devices on the epaulet (which might make some folks happy).
The Air Force is calling it the "Civil Air Patrol Heritage Initiative" (CAP-HI) to hark back to our original uniform.
Like this?
(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//post-448-1169212822.jpg)
(http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//post-448-1169213357.jpg)
Honestly I might, I say might be able to live with that, depending on how it looks on the blues.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 12, 2011, 07:48:24 PM
Honestly I might, I say might be able to live with that, depending on how it looks on the blues.
We should ask for the four pocket tunic back if they want the red. :) And allow goatees and beards too, nicely trimmed ;)
And, if they choose olive drab color with the red. Perhaps we can use Soviet surplus officer caps with a new designed CAP emblem. ;)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g429/ELZIN11/R0078994.jpg)
If this policy is enacted, I won't quit. In fact, I will continue to offer my full service and devotion to our organization. However, for the first time in 26 years, I will wear only civilian clothes.
Quote from: rmcmanus on January 12, 2011, 08:06:15 PMHowever, for the first time in 26 years, I will wear only civilian clothes.
Which, of course, is not an option on any level.
GOTCHA!!!!!! ;D