CAP has made major changes in its PD program over the last 5 years or so that any unbiased observer has got to believe is a major improvement over the old style SLS, CLC, and ECI-13 courses that were the core of this program at the lower levels.
Nevertheless, there are quite a few folks here who believe that the senior member professional development program is weak and that we should meet some approximation of "Air Force standards" (who knows what that means).
Personally, I'm always for improving things when possible though I'm not sure just what these folks are getting at.
So, here is your chance:
1. What specific additions need to be made to our current PD program to make it less "weak"?
2. How will these new courses be delivered? Electronically? In classroom?
3. If these are classroom based courses, how long should they be in order to move us off the "weak" bubble?
4. How should they be integrated into the current PD program?
Required participation.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2010, 10:35:02 PM
Required participation.
Yeah, cuz our volunteers don't have enough red tape that they have to go through for the privilege of giving their time yet.
Quote from: JeffDG on December 31, 2010, 10:39:24 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2010, 10:35:02 PM
Required participation.
Yeah, cuz our volunteers don't have enough red tape that they have to go through for the privilege of giving their time yet.
No, because we have an underclass of woefully misinformed members who believe they have things knocked, or that their
microcosm of the universe is all that matters, and then complain when things work as they should but they don't understand why.
The inconsistency of training and expectation is probably the #1 problem in CAP.
And also, PD is not redtape.
I could get behind being required if you accept advanced grade. You accept Captain, you agree to get Level II done by X or you demote to match the PD you have done.
Ideal? Probably not. But at least you would have an idea of an individual's knowledge based on the insignia.
Perhaps you exclude some (Chaplains, medical and legal come to mind) but then they wear distinctive badges.
We need leaders and followers. You can not force leadership
Since you asked.
PD as it stands, is not too bad. It needs to be tweaked at the lower levels.
My change:
Within 6 months, and preferably in the first 60 days of joining, an SM should undergo an Officer Training School. This can be over a weekend, and should include classroom and hands-on instruction in:
1. D&C. Whether the officer will work with cadets or not, he should know how to fall in, do facing movements, stand at attention, parade rest, and at ease. He should know preparation/execution commands. He should be familiar with basic drill movements; forward march, column, flanks, and rear march. Also... how to do an in-ranks inspection.
2. Report to an officer. A SM should meet the same standards as a Curry cadet on this one.
3. Proper wear of the uniform. When/how/what/where/why.
4. History and Organization of CAP. Does any newbie REALLY understand the role of the NB, NEC, BoG?
5. Intro to the PD program. How you move up.
6. CPPT. Lets all review it together and discuss cases and decision-making. Not the softball crap in the National website training, but close calls requiring judgement.
7. Planning for events, preparing operational plans, writing military memoranda.
8. An intro to e-services, and making sure everything that should be done on a computer is done.
9. Mission Orientation: Basic ways we accomplish the missions of:
Cadet Programs
Emergency Services
Aerospace Education
10. Military Customs and Courtesies.
The new Basic Officer Course is a tremendous improvement. :clap:
Required participation like Eclipse said. I'm relatively new - how do these sound?
1. Require a specialty track and appointment in an assistant duty position by the end of six months if you want to do the fun stuff. Make sure prospects are aware of that requirement before they join.
2. bring all specialty track pamphlets up-to-date
3. require job performance not just time in position for specialty track advancement
4. add an on-line SQTR-like feature to track specialty track and PD program level requirements
If members don't feel like they are contributing/learning/having fun, they won't stick around. At least, that's what is seems like from this newbie's perspective.
No advanced grade for anyone that is not a commander.
Phase One should have a D&C test. If we are going to require it of our cadets we need to know it as well.
OBC is good as far as the curriculum goes, though I think either it should be classroom oriented, or SLS needs to be lengthened. Sort of like an "encampment" for SM's because of the team building exercises that could be incorporated with a little extra time.
Have schools held by wing for specialty tracks. This will ensure a common knowledge of how the programs work nationwide. Makes for a more uniform knowledge set and makes it to where every unit runs more along one track.
Quote from: davidsinn on January 01, 2011, 12:20:46 AM
No advanced grade for anyone that is not a commander.
And no commanders without PD - or at the least provisional posting with a requirement that things like UCC, etc., be completed immediately.
(yes, some wing are lax on offering enough classes - when you have a clamoring, more classes will be offered).
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 01, 2011, 12:21:58 AM
Phase One should have a D&C test. If we are going to require it of our cadets we need to know it as well.
OBC is good as far as the curriculum goes, though I think either it should be classroom oriented, or SLS needs to be lengthened. Sort of like an "encampment" for SM's because of the team building exercises that could be incorporated with a little extra time.
Have schools held by wing for specialty tracks. This will ensure a common knowledge of how the programs work nationwide. Makes for a more uniform knowledge set and makes it to where every unit runs more along one track.
Drill and Ceremonies is not really anything a Senior member not teaching it needs to know. Aside from knowing how and when to salute, how to stand at attention and report (if accepting an award or for opening ceremonies), however columns and flanks, order of the guidon and the likes has never been something we have done except as an example in teaching cadets.
SLS as a weekend class is good as is. Not everyone can take off of work for a week to get this done especially when we have no dispensation for reimbursement or "National Guard-like employee/employer" relationships. I know it would mean more that way, but when dealing with volunteers who work and maintain families...certain realities have to be taken into account.
It is for that reason that I had certain points about a national commander who was a USAF General...CAP is not like the Active Duty Air Force, Reserves or Guard, we do this while we live for no compensation beyond what fulfills us as volunteers. You cannot make such mandates that destroy the ability of volunteers to take part.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 01, 2011, 12:21:58 AM
Have schools held by wing for specialty tracks. This will ensure a common knowledge of how the programs work nationwide. Makes for a more uniform knowledge set and makes it to where every unit runs more along one track.
I like that idea...many units are understrength in certain disciplines and I know in my case we don't have any SME's in my specialty. A Specialty or Branch School would be cool.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 01, 2011, 12:34:05 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 01, 2011, 12:20:46 AM
No advanced grade for anyone that is not a commander.
And no commanders without PD - or at the least provisional posting with a requirement that things like UCC, etc., be completed immediately.
(yes, some wing are lax on offering enough classes - when you have a clamoring, more classes will be offered).
Really? Build a program based on the idea that something might happen that would create a need based on the "logical" actions of a Wing based on the "logical" actions that may or may not happen to put people in positions, like a commander, that have to exist to keep a unit going and for the organization to exist and operate at a SQUADRON level based on the idea that someone will do something and those things will happen because they "should" happen. Brilliant...maybe we need the CAP RACE CAR BACK!!!
No...as part of the changes, you implement additional changes and requirements for the wings to support the units.
Obviously you can't hold a unit CC responsible for something he couldn't do, but at the same time if you want things to get better
you have to raise expectations.
Slick-sleeve, untrained, commanders propagate the problems. Willingness to serve is not enough to be successful.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 12:39:27 AM
Drill and Ceremonies is not really anything a Senior member not teaching it needs to know. Aside from knowing how and when to salute, how to stand at attention and report (if accepting an award or for opening ceremonies), however columns and flanks, order of the guidon and the likes has never been something we have done except as an example in teaching cadets.
I teach D&C, I march during parades, and march for ceremonies. I know many others that do or should, but don't know how to march, don't even know what their supposed to do when Left Right Left is called. That makes us look bad. Not to mention, have you ever talked to a cadet to correct them on their bearing (bearing as in slouching or improperly standing at attention or parade rest)? If so, do you get some weird looks? If so it is because they know that you don't know D&C yourself.
QuoteDrill and Ceremonies is not really anything a Senior member not teaching it needs to know. Aside from knowing how and when to salute, how to stand at attention and report (if accepting an award or for opening ceremonies), however columns and flanks, order of the guidon and the likes has never been something we have done except as an example in teaching cadets.
I agree. Our time would be better spent teaching SM duty positions & ES than D&C, other than the items mentioned.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Within 6 months, and preferably in the first 60 days of joining, an SM should undergo an Officer Training School. This can be over a weekend, and should include classroom and hands-on instruction in:
I'm with you so far. Right away would be great, I took SLS within just a couple of months of joining and found I already knew most of the material which made the time spent feel like a waste of time. It's never good to waste a volunteer's time.
Quote
1. D&C. Whether the officer will work with cadets or not, he should know how to fall in, do facing movements, stand at attention, parade rest, and at ease. He should know preparation/execution commands. He should be familiar with basic drill movements; forward march, column, flanks, and rear march. Also... how to do an in-ranks inspection.
You lost me here. Why spend limited, valuable time during a weekend course to teach something that will likely never be used again by those in attendance? Senior members simply don't do drill and there's no reason for them to start. Heck, with all the guys and gals who show up with canes and walkers, this doesn't even sound practical.
Quote
2. Report to an officer. A SM should meet the same standards as a Curry cadet on this one.
Not used in all areas, but since it takes all of five minutes to cover, go right ahead.
Quote
3. Proper wear of the uniform. When/how/what/where/why.
This is currently covered in SLS, so either it gets cut from there or because this training occurred in the first 60 days, it is limited to saying, "welcome to CAP, great looking polo you have on there, here are some other options you may be interested in down the road once you're established and sure you're sticking with us."
Quote
4. History and Organization of CAP. Does any newbie REALLY understand the role of the NB, NEC, BoG?
I'd seriously question if the people who currently serve on the NB, NEC, and BoG fully understand the roles of those governing bodies (our own Col Lee excluded of course). When you're new and within the first 60 days, the squadron commander is probably as high up the chain of command the new member needs to be aware of.
This material is covered in the OBC, which does seem appropriate.
Quote
5. Intro to the PD program. How you move up.
Again, this is already covered in other training (SLS), so decisions need to be made when does this topic need to be covered. Right away, or once the member has his or her feet wet? Just don't cover it twice in the same level of detail, again, let's not waste a volunteer's time.
Let's just get the PDO to do his or her job and this will be a non-issue.
Quote
6. CPPT. Lets all review it together and discuss cases and decision-making. Not the softball crap in the National website training, but close calls requiring judgement.
Is the current one-on-one discussion with the squadron commander not working? This is definitely already happening within the first 60 days already.
Quote
7. Planning for events, preparing operational plans, writing military memoranda.
"Hi, you just joined yesterday and now we're going to teach you how to plan for an event." Instead, this seems like a great topic for CLS or UCC.
Quote
8. An intro to e-services, and making sure everything that should be done on a computer is done.
This will quickly disintegrate into teaching people how to double-click on icons and how to get a web browser running, but it's better than the zero-training that seems to be occurring now.
Quote
9. Mission Orientation: Basic ways we accomplish the missions of:
Cadet Programs
Emergency Services
Aerospace Education
This is a good idea because for a lot of people, it seems like it is one of the three missions that draws the person into the organization. Let's make sure they're equally aware of the other two missions we do.
Quote
10. Military Customs and Courtesies.
This is about as useful as D&C in my area, but if you're in a unit or wing that's big on C&C it should definitely be covered. Otherwise, no class should ever include, "we're going to cover this, but don't worry about it because you'll never need it in our wing/unit." Again, don't waste my time.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Since you asked.
PD as it stands, is not too bad. It needs to be tweaked at the lower levels.
My change:
Within 6 months, and preferably in the first 60 days of joining, an SM should undergo an Officer Training School. This can be over a weekend, and should include classroom and hands-on instruction in:
1. D&C. Whether the officer will work with cadets or not, he should know how to fall in, do facing movements, stand at attention, parade rest, and at ease. He should know preparation/execution commands. He should be familiar with basic drill movements; forward march, column, flanks, and rear march. Also... how to do an in-ranks inspection.
2. Report to an officer. A SM should meet the same standards as a Curry cadet on this one.
3. Proper wear of the uniform. When/how/what/where/why.
4. History and Organization of CAP. Does any newbie REALLY understand the role of the NB, NEC, BoG?
5. Intro to the PD program. How you move up.
6. CPPT. Lets all review it together and discuss cases and decision-making. Not the softball crap in the National website training, but close calls requiring judgement.
7. Planning for events, preparing operational plans, writing military memoranda.
8. An intro to e-services, and making sure everything that should be done on a computer is done.
9. Mission Orientation: Basic ways we accomplish the missions of:
Cadet Programs
Emergency Services
Aerospace Education
10. Military Customs and Courtesies.
I agree completely! +1
Quote from: peter rabbit on December 31, 2010, 11:27:38 PM
The new Basic Officer Course is a tremendous improvement. :clap:
Required participation like Eclipse said. I'm relatively new - how do these sound?
1. Require a specialty track and appointment in an assistant duty position by the end of six months if you want to do the fun stuff. Make sure prospects are aware of that requirement before they join.
2. bring all specialty track pamphlets up-to-date
3. require job performance not just time in position for specialty track advancement
4. add an on-line SQTR-like feature to track specialty track and PD program level requirements
If members don't feel like they are contributing/learning/having fun, they won't stick around. At least, that's what is seems like from this newbie's perspective.
+1 with all of this but especially # 4. This came to mind a few months ago. I, as a former PD Officer, would find this very helpful in keeping track of every senior member's specialty track(s) requirements.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 01, 2011, 12:21:58 AM
Phase One should have a D&C test. If we are going to require it of our cadets we need to know it as well.
OBC is good as far as the curriculum goes, though I think either it should be classroom oriented, or SLS needs to be lengthened. Sort of like an "encampment" for SM's because of the team building exercises that could be incorporated with a little extra time.
Have schools held by wing for specialty tracks. This will ensure a common knowledge of how the programs work nationwide. Makes for a more uniform knowledge set and makes it to where every unit runs more along one track.
Schools for Specialty Tracks is a Great idea!
There are quite a few of these proposals that I would agree with, but I don't see any of them as making a radical change in CAP culture.
C'mon, where are you folks that want CAP officers to be somewhat equivalent to AF officers (I don't think it is needed, but they seem to)? Those are the people I want to hear from. Tweeking our current system surely isn't going to get us to that level.
Those of you who are commenting that D&C or other military courtesies, etc., are "unnecessary in my area", are pointing to your local weaknesses (any mission-level successes not withstanding). This isn't M*A*S*H. We don't have enough banked cool points, innate skill, or dumb luck (i.e. good writers), to ignore the paramilitary aspect of the organization and still come out "winners" before the last commercial.
These are not optional components of our program, despite the fact that some units ignore them, and some people (misguidedly) disdain them, they should be part of every member's core training. They are a part of CAP for a reason beyond the historic or parent-service affinity.
They instill and promote discipline - not punitive discipline which is what most people think of when they hear the word, but mental discipline. Being aware of your surroundings, of who is in the room, that some people are "more equal" than others, etc., in the same way that properly configuring a uniform instills and reinforces attention to detail and the involvement beyond just throwing on a shirt.
Sure there are those in the combatant services who disdain and dislike courtesies and the like, too, but the difference is they have all been trained in the same way, know how to react and respond properly even if their daily job doesn't use them, and don't treat them like anything beyond the acknowledgment that they are (or the pomp and circumstances of the organization).
Even Dr's and other professionals go to "salutin' school" for a few weeks to understand the culture they are signing into.
Here's the bottom line - CAP lacks the baseline consistent training that even your local volunteer PD or FD get before being allowed to hit the streets, so conversations which should take minutes or never happen at all, are constant debates, and the good efforts of 99% of our members are constantly under assault by the 1% who have no clue but think they know better.
Nothing in the program is "optional", and if we all acted that way, most of our problems would work themselves out.
And I don't accept the "plight of the downtrodden volunteer". There are other organizations with similar missions for people who
don't want to affiliate with a paramilitary organization. They need your help and time as much as we do, and it won't be such a "burden"
for you. Accept the standard or move on.
Some great ideas have been stated so far, especially in JohnKachenmeister's post. One additional item is to somehow improve the quality of our internal instructors.
I greatly prefer a classroom environment for meaningful learning, provided we have competent instructors. However, I have been extremely frustrated with the quality of classroom instruction in CAP. It completely pisses me off when I reserve a weekend for a class, or take vacation time for said class, only to listen to instructors state they have never seen the curriculum before. Then they proceed to read from the Power Point as if a room full of adults couldn't do that for themselves. Even worse are those who ignore the curriculum and launch into a dissertation of their own creation. People like this are wasting our time and denying us the benefit of the learning that should have happened.
No matter how improved our curriculum may be, it is wasted on instructors who donated their brain to science before showing up to teach.
Online learning has its place. I wholeheartedly support our use of online courses for minor and repetitive topics. In spite of my CAP classroom experiences I still believe that a quality classroom environment remains best for courses like Level 1, SLS, and CLC.
I couldn't agree more, if we want a better PD program we must have more knowledgeable instructors. The only thing is how do we ensure that we have them? I honestly don't know how we could go about that part.
If you think D&C and C&C are things that don't matter where you are, you are just showing one of the weaknesses that we have in CAP. Everyone has value in CAP, but when you say that you don't want or need to learn an aspect of CAP because it just doesn't apply to you, that makes me ask how big is your value, both your value in CAP and CAP's value to you?
If we want to be of more value to our communities and to the USAF then we need to have more standardized training. In courses such as OBC we have a standard line of what needs to be known by everyone to pass the course, a common set of knowledge to pass. However we do not have that sort of standard for our specialty tracks. We do have great starting points with the study guides, but that is where it stops, you apply the study guide to how you learn in your unit. That makes the knowledge up to you and to your mentor, and we all know that how things are done vary from unit to unit and wing to wing. We could be seen as a much larger asset if those who look at our training curriculums could just take one look and see into how the entire asset, not just one unit, is trained and can be confident in our standards.
For those of you who think D&C and Customs and Courtesies should not be included...
How do you train cadets?
If you are not involved in cadet programs, OK, but someday you might be. It is 1/3 of our mission.
What do you do when a cadet or an airman salutes you? If you return a salute like Barack Obama, you will look like a nerd and they will (behind your back) laugh at you. By extension, they are laughing at CAP.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 01, 2011, 06:10:41 PM
For those of you who think D&C and Customs and Courtesies should not be included...
How do you train cadets?
If you are not involved in cadet programs, OK, but someday you might be. It is 1/3 of our mission.
What do you do when a cadet or an airman salutes you? If you return a salute like Barack Obama, you will look like a nerd and they will (behind your back) laugh at you. By extension, they are laughing at CAP.
I don't really think it matters if you work in CP, it is still needed as D&C and C&C are major aspects of any military group or organization. If your unit is invited or signs up to participate in your Independence Day parade, do only your cadets march? What about the overall pride and involvement in your unit? Every parade or public function that involves marching should include the Senior Members as well.
Focusing on Drill and Ceremonies for seniors instead of duty position subject area issues, aircraft maintenance issues, safety culture, cadet retention, unit support and connecting the "top" of the organization to the squadron level where the rubber meets the road may well be an example of putting the "cart before the horse."
If a true poll of Senior members was taken today, how many would dismiss D&C as irrelevant or, even worse, "poser/pretender-ism."
There will always be two kinds of Senior members, those like me that value the traditions of CAP (including customs and courtesies, drill and ceremony and the like) and those that joined to fly missions as CAP aircrew that see the "service" as more important than the "trappings."
We once tried Senior D&C at one of our composite meetings to better instruct the cadets, who at the time were building in number. After the meeting there were some seniors that came up to me and told me that if that was going to be an element of the regular meeting that they would leave, request a transfer to another unit (120 miles away) and that they "are happy to fly cadets, stand for the pledge and report if ordered," but they didn't sign up to "march in squares and in circles." 3 of them were prior service people who found the practice to be "pretentious" and "unnecessary."
Now, those of you with such "fantasy squadrons" of senior members marching in parades, how will you realistically deal with that? That is a real issue to deal with.
Many of you know my dedication and passion for CAP, so I don't being this up to make excuses or because I don't believe in what has been said...but, I can't sacrifice those that would leave...that awaken at all hours of the night to fly and DF or who will take time off of work for a SARex or REDCAP or that attend meeting regularly for training in advance ES because some person in a distant Wing wants them to march in formations.
Quote from: phirons on December 31, 2010, 11:00:17 PM
<snip>
Perhaps you exclude some (Chaplains, medical and legal come to mind) but then they wear distinctive badges.
We need leaders and followers. You can not force leadership
As of the NB action in August of 2008, chaplains now must complete the same requirements for all awards in the Senior Member Professional Development Program (with the exception of RSC....the Chaplain Corps has their own Chaplain Corps Region Staff College -- the requirement is to complete 2 within a 5 year time-frame). Chaplains no longer participate in the Special Recognition Program in the CAPR 50-17. The 221 series has been been revised and should be available shortly.
On another note...chaplains are no longer promoted by simply breathing (completing TIG), They follow the promotion guidelines following the initial grade appointment. You will be seeing fewer and fewer Chaplains who are Lt Cols and haven't atttained anything past Level 1. Those days are behind us.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Focusing on Drill and Ceremonies for seniors instead of duty position subject area issues, aircraft maintenance issues, safety culture, cadet retention, unit support and connecting the "top" of the organization to the squadron level where the rubber meets the road may well be an example of putting the "cart before the horse."
Who said "focus"? Perhaps that is part of the problem these days - people have such a low attention span that the minute you suggest
anything, that "thing" becomes the focus. D&C and C&C shouldn't be the "focus" of CAP anymore than a/c maintenance, safety, or anything else. It is part of the whole.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
If a true poll of Senior members was taken today, how many would dismiss D&C as irrelevant or, even worse, "poser/pretender-ism."
First, I disagree that this would be the outcome, because most likely the only members who would spend the time on the poll would be those engaged enough to understand, but that it irrelevant - there are members today who don't even think weekly meetings are important.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
There will always be two kinds of Senior members, those like me that value the traditions of CAP (including customs and courtesies, drill and ceremony and the like) and those that joined to fly missions as CAP aircrew that see the "service" as more important than the "trappings."
Which is the core of the issue, and which splits our membership and compromises our effectiveness.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
We once tried Senior D&C at one of our composite meetings to better instruct the cadets, who at the time were building in number. After the meeting there were some seniors that came up to me and told me that if that was going to be an element of the regular meeting that they would leave, request a transfer to another unit (120 miles away) and that they "are happy to fly cadets, stand for the pledge and report if ordered," but they didn't sign up to "march in squares and in circles." 3 of them were prior service people who found the practice to be "pretentious" and "unnecessary."
"Thank you for your time. Perhaps CAP is not for you."
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Now, those of you with such "fantasy squadrons" of senior members marching in parades, how will you realistically deal with that? That is a real issue to deal with.
"Fantasy Squadrons"? Really? Don't confuse your local challenges with national norm. We have seniors who march in parades all over my wing.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 01, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Many of you know my dedication and passion for CAP, so I don't being this up to make excuses or because I don't believe in what has been said...but, I can't sacrifice those that would leave...that awaken at all hours of the night to fly and DF or who will take time off of work for a SARex or REDCAP or that attend meeting regularly for training in advance ES because some person in a distant Wing wants them to march in formations.
Repeating. CAP is not a cafeteria. Do or do not, but don't make excuses about what you don't
like to do. We are in the position we are in because we started to allow people to pick and choose what they wanted to do, and ignore the rest.
Sparky:
Nobody said anything about replacing duty position training with drill. In our OTS program we devote 90 minutes to D&C and 30 minutes to reporting to an officer. This provides merely a familiarization with basic drill. The goal is to learn basic commands, stationary drill, facing movements, forward march and halt. If time is left, we try columns and flanks, and rear march. Reporting to an officer covers the hand salute.
There is a baseline body of knowledge that every officer needs to know. Drill is a part of that knowledge. I don't use meeting time for drill, once they learn the basics they will either go to a senior unit and never use it again or go into cadet programs and learn a lot more.
In OCS I had to qualify with the M-60 machine gun. After OCS, I never fired one again.
Lets go back when:
1. The current OBC was required prior to being promoted to an officer grade.
2.UCC required before you can be appointed to a unit commander or deputy commander.
3.Unit commanders should have a tech level in all three CAP mission areas.
Quote from: CAP_truth on January 01, 2011, 07:30:50 PM
Lets go back when:
1. The current OBC was required prior to being promoted to an officer grade.
2.UCC required before you can be appointed to a unit commander or deputy commander.
3.Unit commanders should have a tech level in all three CAP mission areas.
Where do I sign?
We have a Training Leaders of Cadets(TLC) Course. How about a Training Leaders of Seniors Course(TLS) to teach Mentoring and PD Coaching.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 01, 2011, 07:37:06 PM
Quote from: CAP_truth on January 01, 2011, 07:30:50 PM
Lets go back when:
1. The current OBC was required prior to being promoted to an officer grade.
2.UCC required before you can be appointed to a unit commander or deputy commander.
3.Unit commanders should have a tech level in all three CAP mission areas.
Where do I sign?
I could almost agree, I would sign if it weren't for one thing.
How do you get most ratings? As it stands right now you get your ratings by holding positions and participating in training and conferences.
If you were to put that requirement for CC then you would most of the time require personnel to hold multiple positions in a squadron, while that happens quite often is not the ideal way to train. Change the training requirements to specialty training courses as in schools then I would sign up in a heart beat.
The ratings are earned through personal training, some testing, and staff service. For most members, attaining a tech rating
is just a matter of documenting what they are doing as a matter of their normal service and participation, and since the completion
is the subjective call of the local commander, you don't necessarily have to be The "x-Officer" to serve that role and complete the
rating.
1-2 years is reasonable for attaining at least a tech rating in the big three, and seriously, do we really want unit CC's with less
than 2 years in and who ignore PD?
For me personally, by the time I was a unit CC, I had earned the senior level in CP & ES, but had essentially ignored AE beyond the
bare minimum to be versed as a CC. This has been an issue ever since, and I am not nearly as versed in the nuances of that program as I am in the other two.
Another point to those who nay-say more requirements because their wing is remiss in providing training.
I still hold this is circular, and takes some fortitude in changing. For every member who says there is no SLS near them,
there is at least one staffer who put one together and no one showed up.
If we treat PD as a matter-of-course requirement, instead of a last-minute check box, people would have two choices:
A) Just do it ("As in, yes, its a long drive, but is all part of the game, we all did it".)
B) Put their money where their mouth is and host one locally.
(My SLS was 6 hours away, then I asked a few questions and hosted the CLC in my home unit.)
People do what is presented as fun, important, or required, in that order. CC's need to stress all three for PD.
Quote from: ol'fido on January 01, 2011, 07:42:30 PM
We have a Training Leaders of Cadets(TLC) Course. How about a Training Leaders of Seniors Course(TLS) to teach Mentoring and PD Coaching.
You may want to look at two publications:
CAPP 50-7 (2004) MENTORING: Building Our Members
CAPP 229 (2009) ORGANIZATIONAL EXCELLENCE Specialty Guide
When it comes to hosting a PD course, you do NOT need to have taken the course previously. As the host, you are basically responsible for the location, sign-ups, materials, and arranging for instructors. You do not have to be an instructor yourself.
Some good ideas. Like some of Kach's.
As for initial training, I don't agree with just a single weekend idea. I think the optimal would be a few Saturdays (I'd say three over a quarter), some online instruction, and one meeting out of the month for those new seniors (meaning that they don't just sit in a meeting listening to people talk, or down the donuts). Of course, if people don't want to do it, add an incentive. Finish the three month training period and get your butterbars, six months if you don't. I'd bet a few people might decide to live with it.
Content should include D&C. D&C isn't even something the military uses on a day to day basis, but it does teach teamwork. I rarely marched anywhere Active Duty after I left Tech school (on an order of about once per year over a ten year period), but I still know how and am expected to. If you're part of a paramilitary organization, you should know how to march. Even in the beginning days of CAP, it was taught. I'm not advocating that it should be done every meeting, or even after that initial training, just make sure people know.
Of course, I also find it amusing how many people want to "work with the kids", but don't want to learn some of what they know.
Organization is a definite necessity. People should know more than just squadron and wing (which I am constantly surprised how many people think the chain of command is squadron-wing-National).
A brief breakdown of specialty tracks would be a good idea. Nothing in-depth like having to know what the PD requirements for each line of it is, but some basic familiarization, and how each one might interact with others.
Probably not a bad idea to include decorations. What's the point of wearing them if people don't know what they mean? I can understand if a CAP member doesn't know what my military ribbons are, but when people ask what my Loening or my Encampment ribbon is it's a little strange.
Hawk:
We TRIED to do multiple weekends/multiple saturdays, but our group is as busy as a mongoose in a cobra pit, and it became too much of a PITA to schedule and manage. Plus the local commanders wanted their people trained up quicker so they can use them. Our current training goes from 0700 on Saturday to 2030 with two breaks for meals, and 0800 to 1630 on Sunday.
We also tried to award 2nd Lt. to graduates of the program, waiving the 6-month TIG requirement. National HQ disapproved our request for an exception to policy.
We discuss the senior program awards during the PD class, and the cadet awards briefly in the Cadet Programs class. I also have a powerpoint on CAP awards, but the schedule is pretty full, and I have not been able to work it in. I keep it in reserve in case an instructor finishes early. In the room where the training takes place in my HQ are posters with CAP awards, insignia, and history.
50 CAP Officers marching columns and flanks is pretty, but if they are not pilots and there is no one to fly cadets, nor the REDCAP missions nor you name it then our effectiveness if forfeit.
Good luck with your pipe-dreaming.
Senior Members, unless directly operating cadet matters, have never marched in any of our parades. Those have been cadet activities in these parts for years. Yes, Eclipse, your Wing might be a paradise and you may be able to turn away pilots and the like; but we are not all that lucky to have the CAP "Garden of Eden" in our area.
Never forget that. That is a big problem with the "dreamers" here, you fail to take into account the realities.
Maybe...just maybe...next time we need hurricane recovery missions flown, I can call upon the personal of the unit to execute a column left. Or, next CD mission I can have a guidon bearer assume the front right position. Maybe I can have a Lt Col with countless flight experience, a willingness to fly cadets and train others 2b'ed because he can't or won't do a right flank. We are about serving the community as a force multiplier, losing sight of that is dangerous.
Now, if you want these things you will have to institute them gradually and then, when finished, in totality. By that I mean, we have to sell it as such from the start. How many of you will add D&C to the recruiting spiel? When recruiting at an airshow do you have an aircraft static display, or do you have a formation of men marching as if they were facing the British during the War of 1812? Answer honestly?
To have military customs and courtesies and military drill and ceremonies to this level it has to become a "program/curriculum" thing. Going over it for 30 min at an initial training is not enough. Selling "aviation" as our main goal from the start is to pilots and aircrew must send the wrong message. How much of our public affairs literature shows men and women in flight suits marching? Hummmm?
Here's my 2 cents worth:
1) all the courses need some preliminary preparation by the participants, so they all start on the same page
2) all the courses need some sort of assessment tool for measuring student comprehension and learning
Both could easily be done online.
For Level 1, SLS, CLC, an online quiz (open book) would suffice for #2.
For TLC & UCC, something more along the lines of an essay test would be better.
For RSC & NSC there should be a 'capstone project' - could be a group effort (e.g, an RSC seminar working together); could be research, planning, program design, media project...many possibilities.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 03:41:43 AM
50 CAP Officers marching columns and flanks is pretty, but if they are not pilots and there is no one to fly cadets, nor the REDCAP missions nor you name it then our effectiveness if forfeit.
Good luck with your pipe-dreaming.
Senior Members, unless directly operating cadet matters, have never marched in any of our parades. Those have been cadet activities in these parts for years. Yes, Eclipse, your Wing might be a paradise and you may be able to turn away pilots and the like; but we are not all that lucky to have the CAP "Garden of Eden" in our area.
Never forget that. That is a big problem with the "dreamers" here, you fail to take into account the realities.
Maybe...just maybe...next time we need hurricane recovery missions flown, I can call upon the personal of the unit to execute a column left. Or, next CD mission I can have a guidon bearer assume the front right position. Maybe I can have a Lt Col with countless flight experience, a willingness to fly cadets and train others 2b'ed because he can't or won't do a right flank. We are about serving the community as a force multiplier, losing sight of that is dangerous.
Now, if you want these things you will have to institute them gradually and then, when finished, in totality. By that I mean, we have to sell it as such from the start. How many of you will add D&C to the recruiting spiel? When recruiting at an airshow do you have an aircraft static display, or do you have a formation of men marching as if they were facing the British during the War of 1812? Answer honestly?
To have military customs and courtesies and military drill and ceremonies to this level it has to become a "program/curriculum" thing. Going over it for 30 min at an initial training is not enough. Selling "aviation" as our main goal from the start is to pilots and aircrew must send the wrong message. How much of our public affairs literature shows men and women in flight suits marching? Hummmm?
You seem to think that CAP starts and ends in the air. How many pilots and MO or MS does CAP have, and how many ground personnel does CAP have?
CAP is more than flying. There is a lot to it, and all of it needs to be embraced.
That is also one thing that I notice a lot of people thinking that we are suggesting that hours and days and weeks need to be dedicated to D&C. That is not the case at all. Forty five minutes for one meeting a month would improve D&C in anyone by a long shot in six months.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 02, 2011, 03:51:38 AM
You seem to think that CAP starts and ends in the air. How many pilots and MO or MS does CAP have, and how many ground personnel does CAP have?
CAP is more than flying. There is a lot to it, and all of it needs to be embraced.
That is also one thing that I notice a lot of people thinking that we are suggesting that hours and days and weeks need to be dedicated to D&C. That is not the case at all. Forty five minutes for one meeting a month would improve D&C in anyone by a long shot in six months.
You obviously don't know me. I am not a pilot and my aircrew experience amounts to once having been a Mission Observer. I am a GT person all the way, although moving more into the cadet realm.
CAP does begin and end in the air. What have me Aerospace Modules in Cadet Curriculum, Cadet O-Flights, the word "Air" in our name and an association withe the USAF? In fact, most times people are shown doing their Ground Team side, some schmuck on line posts a photo of the Ground Team and it is ridiculed as "pretenders" or some other unflattering remark about "playing solider." I, frankly, am sick of those remarks.
The fact is that D&C is not, in contemporary Civil Air Patrol, been mandated, taught, expected or even taken seriously by the Senior Membership. We have, in that regard, scores or more of CAP officers that do not want to do it and won't. Making D&C optional as a solution to this is the
status quo, so what happens then? Punishments? 2b's?
Why do they need to do it? What if we don't do parades? What would it make or break the program? Who do I call when I have to let go of pilots, mission staff and ground team personnel who quit as Eclipse would have me have them do? What do I tell the mother who's lost child dies because a CAP aircrew had to fly in from some distant place who could have been spotted from the air had we launched with local people before the sun set, or whose ground team was not deployed because of this same issue?
If the answer to that last questions is "That's unrealistic, what about other search organizations?" Then what good are we?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 01, 2011, 06:10:41 PMIf you are not involved in cadet programs, OK, but someday you might be. It is 1/3 of our mission.
Senior members are not required to participate in all three missions, so it's conceivable that a senior member could be a 20 year veteran of flying REDCAP missions and only come across cadets in passing.
Quote
What do you do when a cadet or an airman salutes you? If you return a salute like Barack Obama, you will look like a nerd and they will (behind your back) laugh at you. By extension, they are laughing at CAP.
The prevailing practice around here is that you don't salute anybody who wears the polo because the polo doesn't have rank on it. Since it's rare to run into a senior member who's not wearing a polo, the cadets mostly salute themselves. I've seen a few of the senior members who work within the cadet program wear BDUs and Blues and they are typically well versed in C&C. Unfortunately, they're usually over the weight allowance for the uniforms as well.
I've never come across an airmen or NCO, so I'm not sure how much laughing they're doing at us. The couple of officers I've seen at OPEXs seem nice enough, but if they are laughing at us, I agree it's not a good thing.
If we pushed drill as a requirement for membership at my squadron, I'd guess we'd loose everyone who only wears the polo shirt. That would be 90% of the seniors in my squadron and if we went wing-wide, probably 60-70% of all seniors would leave. I'm not sure we'd be able to fulfill the Air Force's expectations at that staffing level.
So, when the majority of folks have de-emphasised D&C and C&C, is it still a part of the organization's culture, or is it something that used to be part of the organizational's culture?
Quote from: Fubar on January 02, 2011, 04:15:29 AM
So, when the majority of folks have de-emphasised D&C and C&C, is it still a part of the organization's culture, or is it something that used to be part of the organizational's culture?
It is my opinion that the "duality" of the nature of the organization is the cause behind these questions. In my experience, those in the Cadet Programs area tend to be more likely to do D&C and C&C, whereas those that are more on the ES side of the house are mixed. Most "Golf Shirters," with those that only do ES or Flying Activities, are less likely to display these matters. Many ES people who either were former cadets or come in from prior service (expecting CAP to be that way) tend to respect these matters.
I think it comes down to two very key points...
1) The reason you joined CAP. If you only wear the uniform for cheap flying, to wear a military uniform or because of some other shallow reasons...odds are you won't mark the "trappings" and will contribute to the organization as far "as you get yours." That lacks integrity, skirts excellence, may be volunteer in spirit but disrespects the CAP.
2) Being sold to make an emotional investment to CAP service. People will have to want to do it. Good attitude comes from knowing the reasons for a given action. What are the reasons for D&C (and they better be more than the usual worn out platitudes memorized from old manuals.)
We have to figure out what we want to be?
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 04:22:38 AM
Quote from: Fubar on January 02, 2011, 04:15:29 AM
So, when the majority of folks have de-emphasised D&C and C&C, is it still a part of the organization's culture, or is it something that used to be part of the organizational's culture?
It is my opinion that the "duality" of the nature of the organization is the cause behind these questions. In my experience, those in the Cadet Programs area tend to be more likely to do D&C and C&C, whereas those that are more on the ES side of the house are mixed. Most "Golf Shirters," with those that only do ES or Flying Activities, are less likely to display these matters. Many ES people who either were former cadets or come in from prior service (expecting CAP to be that way) tend to respect these matters.
I think it comes down to two very key points...
1) The reason you joined CAP
2) Being sold to make an emotional investment to CAP service
We have to figure out what we want to be?
I was a cadet, I am prior service, and I am mostly ES. I do dabble in CP, but I am still strict on D&C and C&C. Why? Because they are important aspects of a paramilitary organization's way of life. Yes, CAP to me is a part of my way of life. If it isn't part of your way of life, that is fine, I don't expect it to be at all.
You are right, we do have to figure out what we want to be, USAFAux, or the Boy Scouts.
If your wearing the Air Force style uniform or working with cadets, you should know your C&C's. And, its doubly important if your doing activities on a military base. Its still part of our culture.
Respectfully,
I think we're straying a bit from the topic here, which is professional development.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 02, 2011, 04:27:31 AM
I was a cadet, I am prior service, and I am mostly ES. I do dabble in CP, but I am still strict on D&C and C&C. Why? Because they are important aspects of a paramilitary organization's way of life. Yes, CAP to me is a part of my way of life. If it isn't part of your way of life, that is fine, I don't expect it to be at all.
You are right, we do have to figure out what we want to be, USAFAux, or the Boy Scouts.
I never had a chance to be a cadet, I am not prior service and I've done mostly ES, I command a Cadet Squadron and have commander a Composite Squadron. I am strict on D&C and C&C because I believe in it as part of what I think CAP should be. We are not a "paramilitary organization" we are a "benevolent volunteer organization." CAP IS A VERY BIG PART OF MY LIFE. I married in the uniform (with permission) and not a week goes by where I am not going something with CAP or CADETS as part of at least 4 days of that week.
I have been there for CAP and it has been there for me. I suspect you think I'm some schmo not wanting to do D&C. You assume too much. I would love for it to be the norm, but reality has proven to me that it is not. Add it to regular squadron activities without looking at all the potential pratfalls and you might unleash more harm than good.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 02, 2011, 04:33:10 AM
I think we're straying a bit from the topic here, which is professional development.
I don't think so. The subject is about professional development and the role D&S should play. Let the threads unfold naturally.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 04:34:54 AM
I never had a chance to be a cadet, I am not prior service and I've done mostly ES, I command a Cadet Squadron and have commander a Composite Squadron. I am strict on D&C and C&C because I believe in it as part of what I think CAP should be. We are not a "paramilitary organization" we are a "benevolent volunteer organization." CAP IS A VERY BIG PART OF MY LIFE. I married in the uniform (with permission) and not a week goes by where I am not going something with CAP or CADETS as part of at least 4 days of that week.
I have been there for CAP and it has been there for me. I suspect you think I'm some schmo not wanting to do D&C. You assume too much. I would love for it to be the norm, but reality has proven to me that it is not. Add it to regular squadron activities without looking at all the potential pratfalls and you might unleash more harm than good.
I must admit, there will be a large group that won't like that there is a D&C aspect being placed into PD. But I don't think that there will be very many that will leave because of it. Once it is down, it is like riding a bike, you can't forget it. When that happens, the practice can be done and over with unless they want to practice it, or if they plan to participate in the parades and what not.
I also admit, you do more than I do, even though I am almost constantly thinking about CAP, you are in the uniform and participating more than I am. That is not by choice, there just isn't that much going on around here as there is there, were there more, I would be there every chance I got.
I definitely think that there needs to be more in PD about participation, not necessarily that you have to attend so many activities in a given time period, but that there should be a requirement that you attend XX% of local activities. That alone will help suggest a knowledge about CAP and the three missions because of time immersed.
First, if you have members who are quitting because expectations are being raised, especially expectations that will make them better members, let them go and get some new ones who are on the team.
I joke all the time about the "you're lucky I showed up at all" attitude, but if that is really the way your members feel, let them find something else to do on the weekend, we don't need them, and just because they might be expedient for you, doesn't mean they are good for CAP.
I don't know why you have chosen to grab hold of this minor D&C / C&C issue as if it were a core of professional development, but seriously, if something so superficial as this upsets your members, I can't begin to imagine the root canal it must be to get something done that actually involves real effort.
The simple fact is that 20 years ago we might have been strong enough to support members who are only "something", but today that is no longer the case, and anyone who joins to be only a pilot, only a ground-pounder, or only launch rockets, is basically expecting someone else to hold up part of their corner. Reasonable for professionals, not cricket for volunteers.
Your nightmare scenario of no one coming to fly because we asked them to stand at attention is just...well...I don't know what it is, but it calls out your aircrews as being somewhat of prima donnas.
Are you insinuating that these few "golden pilots" are the only people in one of the largest states in the US who are willing to fly for CAP? Even if we presume that is true, which I am sure it isn't, what do you do when they are gone?
Close up?
Let the Nay-sayers say nay - whatever. A good leader charts his course and expects people to follow. You have people who don't want to play? Fine. So did I. Rather than calling an all-stop, I stayed the course. Those who didn't want to follow were still allowed to play, but were no longer at the front of the room, and their marginal behavior was no longer rewarded.
Soon the majority were in step and enjoying a better experience, a few sat quietly in the back of the room and
participated as the felt like it while hoping I would be struck by lightning and they could get back to the way things
used to be. And the obstinate left. Some quit and some went to what they considered greener pastures. More power to all. CAP should not be a burden, nor unpleasant for anyone, including the CC, and just because a few members say "no" , doesn't mean you have to accept it as "The Way".
Problem solved. Few uncomfortable conversations, and a wholly effective unit in the wake - squadron of merit as a matter of fact, in its first year with cadets after a 10+ year absence, and arguably the most effective / active ES unit in the wing when I moved up.
You'd be surprised what people are capable of when you give them the opportunity.
And CAP neither begins nor ends in the air. Our air operations are an important part of the total mission,
but there are plenty of members (too many actually), who join and leave CAP, having had a successful, positive experience, who never actually see a CAP airplane, let alone fly in one.
Even with the flexibility of on-line training, I think we lose the human interaction/team building skills that classroom training provide.
Respectfully,
You misunderstand. If you people are gonna bring something up as "a good idea we should so," you had better temper it with a does of reality. I believe most of the issues that cause us so much problems is that people do not give them enough real "Devil's Advocacy."
It is one thing to say "I am gonna feed the hungry of the World." It is another to do it and put it into effect. How are you gonna feed them? Where is the funding coming from? Will they eat what you serve? Who's food are you gonna take to give it to them?
I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.
I have pretty much the same feeling Eclipse.
How many people do you have on your unit's roster? How many of them are truly active? How many of them will show up at 3 am for an ELT that is probably in a hangar while still treating it like someone's life is on the line? Those are the ones who make a difference, those who will show up at 3am are the same ones who won't have a problem with learning D&C or C&C.
^ That was absolutely my experience.
It was no coincidence that the team players were the same ones to start showing up to regular meetings wearing a proper uniform with no complaint and mostly enthusiasm.
People will drop to the level of that which is emphasized. If the commander allows a lax environment, then even your varsity will drop their standards, usually begrudgingly, and be darn happy when the bar is picked back up off the floor.
It's a lot easier to recruit new members into a room full of people with smiles and crisp uniforms than into a room full
of people with their feet up who can't be bothered to wear a tie.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 04:55:03 AM
You misunderstand. If you people are gonna bring something up as "a good idea we should so," you had better temper it with a does of reality. I believe most of the issues that cause us so much problems is that people do not give them enough real "Devil's Advocacy."
It is one thing to say "I am gonna feed the hungry of the World." It is another to do it and put it into effect. How are you gonna feed them? Where is the funding coming from? Will they eat what you serve? Who's food are you gonna take to give it to them?
I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.
Almost every unit has one SM who is fluent in D&C, that person would teach it. If there isn't a SM at your unit that knows D&C find a unit nearby that does.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 02, 2011, 05:08:32 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 04:55:03 AM
You misunderstand. If you people are gonna bring something up as "a good idea we should so," you had better temper it with a does of reality. I believe most of the issues that cause us so much problems is that people do not give them enough real "Devil's Advocacy."
It is one thing to say "I am gonna feed the hungry of the World." It is another to do it and put it into effect. How are you gonna feed them? Where is the funding coming from? Will they eat what you serve? Who's food are you gonna take to give it to them?
I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.
Almost every unit has one SM who is fluent in D&C, that person would teach it. If there isn't a SM at your unit that knows D&C find a unit nearby that does.
That is too ambiguous to be a viable answer. What if the nearest unit is 200 miles way? You still have not addressed the issue of it being poorly received, remember good attitude comes from knowing and accepting the reasons behind them. If you want it to be successful, you need good attitude, for that you need a good convincing reason. I'm all eyes...
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 05:20:02 AM
I'm all eyes...
Nice...
Like I said, it won't be accepted by all, neither will any other changes. Change is the hardest thing to do. It is those that take the changes to stay in the program that you want anyways.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 02, 2011, 05:23:02 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 05:20:02 AM
I'm all eyes...
Nice...
Like I said, it won't be accepted by all, neither will any other changes. Change is the hardest thing to do. It is those that take the changes to stay in the program that you want anyways.
The thing about change is that it cannot be forced, it has to happen because there is a need. In was world where toilet paper was invented in the 18th century but did not catch on until the 1930s...making changes attitude is key and takes time. You have to have a good reason to do this that will silence or convince opponents. If you cannot make that compelling a point, you can't chance attitudes.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 05:20:02 AM
That is too ambiguous to be a viable answer. What if the nearest unit is 200 miles way? You still have not addressed the issue of it being poorly received, remember good attitude comes from knowing and accepting the reasons behind them. If you want it to be successful, you need good attitude, for that you need a good convincing reason. I'm all eyes...
Lots of thing CAP requires are poorly received. So what?
When the commander decides something is important, it becomes important.
Anyone capable of cracking a book making a phone call, or asking for help could make it happen in a week, or a month, or a quarter, or not at all.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 05:27:59 AM
The thing about change is that it cannot be forced, it has to happen because there is a need.
Wanna bet? How many steam gauge cockpits is Cessna producing anymore? Pilots have a choice. Adapt or drive, especially in CAP.
Many of ours said "forget about it, no way", stamped their feet, gnashed teeth, and then took advantage of training dollars and qualified, now we get complaints when we drop a steam gauge at a unit during maintenance. Yes, a few quit, but most of those were twice-a-year pilots who were just using CAP for cheap flying.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 05:27:59 AM
If you cannot make that compelling a point, you can't chance attitudes.
If you are incapable of making a compelling argument about raising the professional standards in your unit, or choose to allow a minor point to become a gateway, then your unit does have issues that may be insurmountable.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2011, 05:07:12 AM
^ That was absolutely my experience.
It was no coincidence that the team players were the same ones to start showing up to regular meetings wearing a proper uniform with no complaint and mostly enthusiasm.
People will drop to the level of that which is emphasized. If the commander allows a lax environment, then even your varsity will drop their standards, usually begrudgingly, and be darn happy when the bar is picked back up off the floor.
It's a lot easier to recruit new members into a room full of people with smiles and crisp uniforms than into a room full
of people with their feet up who can't be bothered to wear a tie.
"Build it and they will come...."
As has been said here, once you set the correct expectations...the rest
will fall in line. It might not happen overnight for everyone, but it will give you an great gauge as to who your movers and shakers are going to be. My experience has been that once you have identified those people, you start addressing their needs, tempered with the needs of the unit. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Lose a few members over it? So be it. The REDCAPS still get answered. And by generally more 'tuned in' folks than previously.
When I took over as CC, we had wayyy more members 'on the books' than we do now. Expectations were set, conversations were had...and some did not choose to adapt. But the ones we do keep now are committed to their AOR, and generally progress efficiently...with little need for supervision. And without an active recruiting program ( working on that more now ), my polling of new members indicates that what sold them on the unit was seeing these same members in action. I lose more people to 'life issues' than I do to the tone being set properly, or to making them wear the minimum uniform (non polo shirt) once in a while. I have even had people approach me apologetically when they have to trim back for personal reasons. YMMV.
And I no longer waste time worrying about those whine-and-cheese parties.
I'll second the update of the specialty pamphlets. Some of them are great. Some of them are wretched.
The specialty track schoolhouse is a nice idea, but probably not practical. instead...
There need to be centrally created and managed (online) communities of practice / centers of excellence for each specialty track.
Assignment to a specialty track should grant access to that ST's forum.
This could be accomplished with a national drop of the pers assignments and some scriptage against software like phpbb or smf or whatever.
I would go so far as to say that cadetstuff is a great model of that, for cadet programs (despite poor saturation lately)
The CAP ITO forums, when they were running, was another pretty good example...
The problem with requiring officer training (in residence) within 60 days is who is going to run a class basically every month or two? And who is going to fund it? I get the utility of the program, I just don't think it's reasonable expectation.
More importantly than most of the things that we have traditionally done, I think that the most important thing we need to communicate to new volunteers is along the lines of organizational culture. Expectations, Taboos, for behavior. How you, the individual new member, fit in to the organization (what role you are expected to fill, what work you are expected to finish, and on what timeframe // to what level of quality). Not just slideshows of orgcharts, but actual practical hands-on plugging in and resourcing. I want new senior members to have a crystal clear, one step after the other, path from the front door all the way to functional (without supervision) staff officer that knows exactly what their job is, and exactly who their supervisor is. Right now we don't have that, and we lose a lot of people along that way.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 01, 2011, 01:21:13 AM
but don't know how to march, don't even know what their supposed to do when Left Right Left is called.
Just to nit-pick, left right left shouldn't be being called... it should be hut two three four
Quote from: EclipseThey instill and promote discipline - not punitive discipline which is what most people think of when they hear the word, but mental discipline.
Yah they do, but probably not over the course of a couple minutes, maybe an hour, of introductory training... Particularly for 'hard headed adults' who are set in their ways.
I don't think most cadets REALLY get this until somewhere in the middle/end of phase 1. For us, that's 12 hours of airman academy, and maybe another 12-16 hours out of unit meetings and other activities, and maybe even an encampment in there too... before they REALLY get it.
For my money, senior members that aren't Leadership Officers or Deputy Commanders for Cadets need to know the following drill:
1. Stand at attention (properly)
2. Parade Rest and At Ease, and when to do each
3. Right/Left and About Face9
4. Present and Order Arms (properly, no goofy windmilling/etc) (and when/where to/not to do it)
5. How and where to walk, with some sort of military bearing (not necessarily even squared corners)
6. Reporting statement
7. Shake, Take, Salute
Look, drill is hard to master. Even people who know a lot about it (like Air Force MTI's) still get it wrong now and then.
You gotta be a downright drill nerd to teach it to cadets and do it right. MOST CAP senior members do not need that level of proficiency and knowledge, and the time and effort it would take them to attain it would be better spent in other endeavors.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2011, 04:49:49 AMProblem solved. Few uncomfortable conversations, and a wholly effective unit in the wake - squadron of merit as a matter of fact, in its first year with cadets after a 10+ year absence, and arguably the most effective / active ES unit in the wing when I moved up.
Mr. Eclipse, you're definitely someone I've pegged as an expert (and I assure you, it's not due to volume, but quality), so please understand I am not questioning your results. In fact, I'd like to learn from them.
I've guesstimated that 90% of the senior members of my squadron would find something else to do with their volunteer time if forced to wear anything but a polo and be told they have to spend a portion of meetings learning drill. Like you said, "CAP should not be a burden, nor unpleasant" and everyone has their individual pain thresholds. For some, marching around in squares or putting in the time necessary to have a decent looking uniform is for some reason that threshold around here.
When you were named commander and laid down the law, what was the composition of your squadron like? Was it mostly those who were mission focused but also appreciated the military mindset that CAP started with and a few polo-shirters sprinkled in who sat in the back and hoped for a meteorological intervention? Or was it the other way around, a group that was mission focused who couldn't be bothered with "the military stuff" who had to learn to either like or live with military customs and courtesies?
A squadron that loses all but one or two of its members may not survive the rebuilding process. It would definitely take an extremely dedicated squadron commander who is committed to the long haul. A squadron that looses just a couple of even the most dedicated folks should be able to rebuild, although probably not quickly, depending on the size of the unit. I'm curious which way Mr. Eclipse's unit went.
The CAP PD program is fine as it is. There's the right mix of on line self study as well as in residence requirements that allow flexibility for the working adult members. Of course the big issue is the the quality of adults we recruit. If we bring in a lot of low aptitude personnel, it results in a training/development issues.
Generally squadrons can do a good job of training & developing personnel. We don't need weekend basic training (which basically had been tried with level 1 training in the past).
I personally don't believe that the type of uniform worn (e.g. white aviator, golf shirt or AF type uniforms) has ANY bearing on the contribution of adult members to the program.
RM
From a semi-outsider perspective...
As a former cadet, I recall a different mindset among cadets AND seniors about time spent on PD matters than I sense, third-hand, here on these boards. We spent A LOT more time working on our respective tasks...I got GT and Comms knocked out, and when we weren't working on our squadron stuff we were doing UTXs with the late, great 174th TFW on the weekends. As I'm just coming back after a 28-year-hiatus, it looks as if we're less willing as an organization to demand more time of our folks. Maybe these are regional differences, I can't really claim to know.
But it just seems that, volunteer or not, we CAN ask folks to put more time into the tasks for quals. In the large, semi-urban fire department with which I volunteer, we're a combined career-volunteer system, and the volunteers have to take EXACTLY the same classes, with the same number of instructional/contact hours, as the unionized career firefighters. Some volunteers groused about it...some have left because of it. But one result is that when you see someone wearing a black helmet, you know that person is 100% qualified to A) back you up in an interior structural firefight; B) deliver hands-on patient care on a busy highway; C) pump water; D) etc. It feels a bit like Guard v. AD, and there is some degree of that kind of back-and-forth among members, but when it comes down to it, nobody operating on the fireground is a major hazard to the rest of the team because of inadequate training. Our volunteers don't get fully qualified for 15 to 18 months...and that's a long time to wait to ride a fire engine, if that's why you joined. OTOH, everyone is safe and effective.
So I think one PD improvement would be increasing the hours and direct-instructional time for many quals, especially those that involve physical or complex skills (GT or MO). Being a Logistics officer, while important, doesn't necessarily require the candidate to master a set of physical skills.
Better online resources for cooperative learning would also be good.
Update the pamphlets. Not just with prettier illustrations either...in some cases, the thinking behind them is very outdated.
Run more local/regional schools...bigger than a squadron, since not all can muster the resources. Maybe at the Group level? And then require people to give up a couple of weekends to get their quals done. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I spent an aggregate 22 weeks at the Fire Academy, while raising kids and doing a full-time job. Nobody *made* me, in the sense that I volunteered...but, having done so, I was on the hook for all the obligations that came with it.
And strengthen the basic intake instruction for new SMs...it sets the tone for PD. One of the main purposes of any "basic" training program, whether the Marines, the fire service, or McDonald's Hamburger University, is to steep the new person in the culture and expectations of the organization. It "seals" your membership. At present, it's too haphazard to ensure that everyone coming in gets exposed to the same culture, expectations, values and the like.
Prodigal Jim
You seem to be mixing professional development (the stuff you need to do to get promoted) with ES qualifications to some extent.
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 02, 2011, 04:55:03 AM
I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.
I've noticed that, too.
As you've seen before, my CAP experience is A) very old and B) only cadet, so take my opinion only for what it's worth. That said, in my professional life I've managed small and large organizations, launched products and stood up brand-new organizations from scratch, so I must be fooling enough people most of the time to get something done! :D
It sounds as if a combination of history, geography and present circumstance would prevent you from going as far as Eclipse did all at once. As a former cadet, I, too, believe that SMs who work with or around cadets ought to be able to handle basic D&C and C&C. That said, I don't think that means cadets won't learn something valuable from a committed, knowledgeable "polo shirt."
Perhaps in your unit, an incrementalist approach would work. Just try to find one or two seniors with some prior military, or prior cadet, service. They tend to be better at the D&C and C&C stuff. Let them be the primary "modelers" for the cadets...and then, in a very non-onerous way, let them start getting some of the remaining seniors up to snuff on basic uniforms, behavior and customs and courtesies. It really could be something as simple as a 15-minute review during every weekly meeting for seniors. "Today, we're going to learn how to do a really snappy salute."
Your guys don't have to look like the Air Force Honor Guard at Arlington Cemetery. But I think even some of the "polo shirts" might actually enjoy mastery of some of the finer points. And for those who just can't/won't...use them for what skills they bring to CAP. As you said, you're not going to 2b a great pilot just because he can't execute a Right Flank perfectly. OTOH, maybe said LTC might appreciate learning how to square away his uniform a little bit. Everyone likes to feel competent!
Maybe workable, maybe not. But an attempt to be constructive.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 02, 2011, 04:01:12 PM
You seem to be mixing professional development (the stuff you need to do to get promoted) with ES qualifications to some extent.
I am, a little bit, but that's deliberate. I think they're connected. The attitude toward learning and improvement developed in one area carries over to the other. At least, that's been my experience.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Since you asked.
1. D&C. Whether the officer will work with cadets or not, he should know how to fall in, do facing movements, stand at attention, parade rest, and at ease. He should know preparation/execution commands. He should be familiar with basic drill movements; forward march, column, flanks, and rear march. Also... how to do an in-ranks inspection.
Refer to current level 1 training, it's basically standing at attention, parade rest, and saluting that has to be mastered.
In my career in the AF at any "working" duty station, there never was any parades/marching other than the occasional standing in place at attention/parade rest. The AF (as well as CAP) has much more important things to do than to have adults marching around in circles ;)
RM
Quote from: Fubar on January 02, 2011, 11:46:29 AM
I've guesstimated that 90% of the senior members of my squadron would find something else to do with their volunteer time if forced to wear anything but a polo and be told they have to spend a portion of meetings learning drill. Like you said, "CAP should not be a burden, nor unpleasant" and everyone has their individual pain thresholds. For some, marching around in squares or putting in the time necessary to have a decent looking uniform is for some reason that threshold around here.
Let's be clear, we are not talking about spending "portions of meetings" - maybe one or two to get everyone up to speed as coudano indicated above - then an expectation that people use it. It won't kill anyone to stand in formation.
Quote from: Fubar on January 02, 2011, 11:46:29 AM
When you were named commander and laid down the law, what was the composition of your squadron like? Was it mostly those who were mission focused but also appreciated the military mindset that CAP started with and a few polo-shirters sprinkled in who sat in the back and hoped for a meteorological intervention? Or was it the other way around, a group that was mission focused who couldn't be bothered with "the military stuff" who had to learn to either like or live with military customs and courtesies?
In most cases Polo Shirts were an effort, with the majority showing up in civilian clothes.
The unit had about 65 members on the books and no cadets. Despite rhetoric about being a "flying unit", there were only 2-3 with a
form 5 and less as mission pilots. There were plenty of
pilots, but few
CAP pilots. Because of that, and the unit's central location, the aircraft got a lot of hours, and was impeccably maintained, but the unit's readiness was essentially zero. No ground teams, few, if any, base staff, and zero professional development or progression. The majority of those over 1st Lt. were professional or aviation-related appointments or transfers.
One question repeatedly raised at Group staff meetings was "With all those members and nothing going on, what
are they doing?"
The answer was that the previous unit CC stressed the social aspects of CAP over the operational - birthdays, who is sick, where to eat dinner, and of course the wing is to blame for all that is wrong in CAP. The mention of outside activities was cursory at best, if at all.
When I left, we had about the same number of members, but I believe about 17 were cadets, and the senior rolls had been "normalized"
to move the empty shirts either to 000, patron, or outside the unit. A small percentage of members had far exceeded their normal active membership tenure and simply chose to disengage and retire.
There was plenty of gnashing of teeth, with the "best" comment coming from one member of significant longevity "He can't be a commander, he's not even a pilot!".
My mantra was "don't waste the members' time". We had agendas for meetings, goals in place which were communicated to the members, and focused the entirety of "CAP time" on "CAP stuff". Previously there had been a weekly "newsletter" which we realized had more information about the doings of the airport, pilot's association, and local aviation happenings, then CAP activities. Ending that was a point of contention, but a game-changer.
I was accused of just about very sin against man and nature to my face, and I am sure to this day even more behind my back, which I simply took as a sign of success. My goal and job there was not to make friends, but to bring the unit to the state of readiness and efficacy it thought it actually had.
My comment about CAP not being a burden is intended first and foremost regarding the commander and his staff - those who have chosen to carry the weight of the unit and all the responsibilities. As I have said before, my biggest mistake was in not pulling the band-aid off quicker, instead delaying uncomfortable conversations in the hopes that the members in question would step up (or out). This stretched the "pain" of change far too long for everyone, taking more than a year to see real results which could probably have been accomplished in less than 6 months.
As some background and defense of the previous CC, he had been in place nearly 18 years, most of which was during a time of little change and low expectations. His focus for years had been simply keeping the doors open and his tenacity and relationship with the airport garnered a lot of resources, including free heated hangar space, a building to meet in, and related donations, but with all that working for them, they weren't actually doing much (CAP related).
I, on the other hand, had sat in the back of the room for nearly two years as an uninformed SMWOG (in '99 regs and pubs were still mostly hardcopy state secrets), wondering why I was still showing up, before moving to Group staff and seeing the "real" CAP. In my professional life I was a "dot-bomber" who embraced change and chaos as a normal way of life. Radical leadership transition was something I experienced every year or two for a decade.
Before being appointed I had been away (with Group) for about 5 years, and on returning had mandates regarding my appointment (readiness, attitude, cadets, not necessarily in that order). On reflection, this was probably the best course of action, since a current member would likely have been more worried about irritating friends than making changes.
I sleep well during otherwise frustrating CAP nights with the thought that the unit's subsequent success is my legacy, but the reality is that I was just the Morgan Freeman of the story, with the majority of the real work, especially on the cadet side, being done by my deputies and staff.
Quote from: Chappie on January 01, 2011, 08:29:27 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on January 01, 2011, 07:42:30 PM
We have a Training Leaders of Cadets(TLC) Course. How about a Training Leaders of Seniors Course(TLS) to teach Mentoring and PD Coaching.
You may want to look at two publications:
CAPP 50-7 (2004) MENTORING: Building Our Members
CAPP 229 (2009) ORGANIZATIONAL EXCELLENCE Specialty Guide
I AM aware of these publications. But just because books are on the shelf at the library does not mean that anyone is going to read them. OE is an executive training tool geared for those SMs who want to advance to the higher levels of command and staff. The pub on mentoring is fine. That is the how to guide. As it is however, mentoring is a module in CLC. What I am suggesting is a more broad based, grass roots training program for those mentors. We need trainers for seniors just as much as we do for cadets. How many staff positions are geared toward training in the cadet program? AE, DCC, CDI, DDR, etc. How many are dedicated to training our seniors? DCS(if you have one) and PD.
Because the cadet program is one of our three core missions, we are very intense and comprehensive with promoting it and implementing it. We need to be just as agressive with our senior member training because they train the cadets. I don't care what a senior's job, title, age, rank, or anything else is;every senior member is a leader and a role model just by the virtue of being there. It's up to us to determine whether they are a good leader and role model or a bad one.
In other words, to train the trainers and train them well.
Someone please tell me how a senior can be a deputy commander of cadets or unit commander who does not know basic D&C or C&C. Every phase one cadet is suppose to know the cadet oath, some senior members should know what that means. Civil Air Patrol is by act of Congress the official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force. I do not like the polo shirts. Not all members need to be pilots. Not every member of the USAF are pilots, but everyone contribute to the mission.
CAPP 151 Respect on Display: It isn't just for cadets
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P151_9028588D89DD2.pdf
Quote
Respect on Display. When we render military-style customs and courtesies,
the Core Value of Respect is on display. Air Force traditions like
the salute, and everyday American customs – even friendly greetings
like, "Good afternoon, sir" – symbolize our commitment to a sense of
teamwork that is built on a foundation of mutual respect.
Saluting and standing at attention are part of D&C.
Adults in CAP back in the beginning also stood in formation as well as performed other D&C maneuvers as part of their training. Not saying we should go that in depth with it today but the basics should be covered.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Since you asked.
1. D&C. Whether the officer will work with cadets or not, he should know how to fall in, do facing movements, stand at attention, parade rest, and at ease. He should know preparation/execution commands. He should be familiar with basic drill movements; forward march, column, flanks, and rear march. Also... how to do an in-ranks inspection.
Refer to current level 1 training, it's basically standing at attention, parade rest, and saluting that has to be mastered.
In my career in the AF at any "working" duty station, there never was any parades/marching other than the occasional standing in place at attention/parade rest. The AF (as well as CAP) has much more important things to do than to have adults marching around in circles ;)
RM
The online level 1 is inadequate. For an officer to be useful to CAP, he must have a baseline of knowledge, which includes D&C. Otherwise, he cannot supervise cadet operations.
If all he wants to do is one job in CAP, then he does not need to go through any PD at all. He can stay a 1st Lt.. If he wants to advance in rank, he should be willing to accept greater responsibility.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 03, 2011, 11:31:59 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 02, 2011, 05:03:43 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 31, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Since you asked.
1. D&C. Whether the officer will work with cadets or not, he should know how to fall in, do facing movements, stand at attention, parade rest, and at ease. He should know preparation/execution commands. He should be familiar with basic drill movements; forward march, column, flanks, and rear march. Also... how to do an in-ranks inspection.
Refer to current level 1 training, it's basically standing at attention, parade rest, and saluting that has to be mastered.
In my career in the AF at any "working" duty station, there never was any parades/marching other than the occasional standing in place at attention/parade rest. The AF (as well as CAP) has much more important things to do than to have adults marching around in circles ;)
RM
The online level 1 is inadequate. For an officer to be useful to CAP, he must have a baseline of knowledge, which includes D&C. Otherwise, he cannot supervise cadet operations.
If all he wants to do is one job in CAP, then he does not need to go through any PD at all. He can stay a 1st Lt.. If he wants to advance in rank, he should be willing to accept greater responsibility.
STRONGLY AGREE. This is another case of a watered down or dumbed down program. Make it a weekend seminar like CLC, do some marching and give tests with measurements.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 03, 2011, 11:31:59 AM
The online level 1 is inadequate.
Level 1 is NOT an on-line course - please erase that idea from your brain. Yes, the material is available on-line, but it needs to be presented and reinforced face-to-face. If your new folks are not getting this, you're setting them up to fail right from the start.
Almost every suggestion I've read in this thread is stuff that already exists. Instead of reinventing the wheel, why not work the program as it's written?
You are correct. Level 1 has to be reinforced face-to-face. In our Group, that face-to-face is at a weekend training OTS, where the new officers march (about 90 minutes) learn to report to an officer, cover a lot of basic classes in CAP that gives them about 1 or 2 years worth of knowledge in 2 long days.
That is the difference between "Minimum adequacy" and "Excellence."
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 03, 2011, 04:42:54 PM
You are correct. Level 1 has to be reinforced face-to-face. In our Group, that face-to-face is at a weekend training OTS, where the new officers march (about 90 minutes) learn to report to an officer, cover a lot of basic classes in CAP that gives them about 1 or 2 years worth of knowledge in 2 long days.
That is the difference between "Minimum adequacy" and "Excellence."
PERFECT KACH!!! I love seeing that, when you get someone who is truly into the program and really has the volunteer attitude, you can do more with them in two days than you can with someone else in a year.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 02, 2011, 05:50:58 PM
Quote from: Fubar on January 02, 2011, 11:46:29 AM
I've guesstimated that 90% of the senior members of my squadron would find something else to do with their volunteer time if forced to wear anything but a polo and be told they have to spend a portion of meetings learning drill. Like you said, "CAP should not be a burden, nor unpleasant" and everyone has their individual pain thresholds. For some, marching around in squares or putting in the time necessary to have a decent looking uniform is for some reason that threshold around here.
Let's be clear, we are not talking about spending "portions of meetings" - maybe one or two to get everyone up to speed as coudano indicated above - then an expectation that people use it. It won't kill anyone to stand in formation.
About half of my seniors would walk if required to do D&C and stand formations.....even for a weekend.
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2011, 09:22:47 PM
About half of my seniors would walk if required to do D&C and stand formations.....even for a weekend.
I have real trouble being sympathetic about people who choose not to play the whole game...
Our seniors stand for opening and closing formation every week. What's the big deal?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2011, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2011, 09:22:47 PM
About half of my seniors would walk if required to do D&C and stand formations.....even for a weekend.
I have real trouble being sympathetic about people who choose not to play the whole game...
When you're paying people, then you get to dictate that they participate in the "whole game". But so long as you have a group of unpaid volunteers, then it's for them to decide if they want to donate their time for ES only and leave the mickey-mouse to the cadet/composite units.
With all due respect, CAP does not adopt military customs and courtesies wholesale, rank and grade being among those routinely dispensed with in ES operations. I know many times when a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot gets his orders from a 1d Lt AOBD. Should the AOBD be snapping off a salute every time his subordinates (in terms of the mission chain of command) come for a briefing?
YES.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 03, 2011, 09:33:17 PM
With all due respect, CAP does not adopt military customs and courtesies wholesale, rank and grade being among those routinely dispensed with in ES operations. I know many times when a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot gets his orders from a 1d Lt AOBD. Should the AOBD be snapping off a salute every time his subordinates (in terms of the mission chain of command) come for a briefing?
Non-concur. CAP indeed has adopted military customs and courtesies throughout the organization. Since about 1942, IIRC.
And, yes, junior officers normally salute senior officers, particularly when in uniform and a salute is othewise approrpiate. It's a . . . courtesy.
(And the situation you describe is not that unusual in the armed forces, in any event. I spent a couple of years as a Detachment Commander for an MP Battalion Headquarters. I was a captain, but in my unit were at least four officers senior to me, including the O5 battalion commander and the O4 S-3. I was the genuine UCMJ unit commander, but I can assure you that I saluted them smartly and took direction from them. I understand the same thing happens routinely with aircraft commanders in the AF.)
Considering that most briefing occur indoors, who would be initiating the salute? The Lt Col pilot coming to be briefed or the 1st Lt doing the briefing?
Quote from: JeffDG on January 03, 2011, 09:33:17 PMWhen you're paying people, then you get to dictate that they participate in the "whole game". But so long as you have a group of unpaid volunteers, then it's for them to decide if they want to donate their time for ES only and leave the mickey-mouse to the cadet/composite units.
That is not how it works. If you, or the member really feels our military courtesies are Mickey Mouse, perhaps cert is a better option.
Quote from: JeffDG on January 03, 2011, 09:33:17 PM
With all due respect, CAP does not adopt military customs and courtesies wholesale, rank and grade being among those routinely dispensed with in ES operations. I know many times when a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot gets his orders from a 1d Lt AOBD. Should the AOBD be snapping off a salute every time his subordinates (in terms of the mission chain of command) come for a briefing?
CAP grade and courtesies are
never, ever dispensed with. You don't salute indoors, but outside, of course salutes are expected, unless for a safety reason an area has been designated no salute.
Where do people come up with these ideas?
Quote from: Eclipse on January 03, 2011, 10:41:38 PM
If you, or the member really feels our military courtesies are Mickey Mouse, perhaps cert is a better option.
Even CERT has standards major. ;)
When the Group commander (Major) enters the room where my squadron is meeting, I (Lt Col) call the room to attention. No, not on a mission when people are moving around faster than p.o.'ed fire ants, but on his initial arrival, yes.
We don't have time for drill at meetings, but all of my officers have to undergo the OTS weekend, and they will get about 90 minutes of drill. Not much, but enough to know a little of the basics. If, at some point in the future, one of my officers is tapped to command a cadet or composite squadron, that 90 minutes of training might come in handy. My job as commander is to prepare them for greater responsibility.
The training program used by the South Carolina State Guard (a state defense force) may be of interest to those wondering just what might be possible. They've got a progression of courses for leaders almost all of which are 5 full weekends long with a written test at the end of each weekend. They may sleep overnight at an armory for free or somewhere else if they want to pay. Meals are on their own.
Warrior Leader course (1st step in NCO training)
Advanced Leadership course (low level NCOs)
First Sergeants Course
Officer Basic Course
Captains Career Course
Senior Officers Course
Compared to CAP (and most other SDFs from what I can tell) this is a VERY aggressive training program but they manage to get volunteers for it.
http://www.scsgschools.org/index.html
Most SDF's that I am aware of have a mandatory annual training, usually 1 week to 10 days. No pay.
Ohio had its OCS and NCO training during this period.
how about starting with the basics like updating the current PD requirements. I would love to complete ES but the ECI course is outdated and useless....
Quote from: cap235629 on January 04, 2011, 04:12:57 AM
how about starting with the basics like updating the current PD requirements. I would love to complete ES but the ECI course is outdated and useless....
And no longer required, as pointed out here on a number of occasions.
it is discretionary last I heard but I can not locate a specific cite, any help would be appreciated. If the course is no longer required I have completed everything for my senior rating. I was gigged on this on our last SUI so it is important that I finish this.....
I think your best bet would be to ping the KB on this or just hit John Desmaris directly.
It is from him, through my Wing ESO, that this information comes, and my wing has not required it for several years.
If he replies in a way that can be made public it would help a lot of people.
Think of it also from a safety issue. If you are not disciplined or lack the physical conditioning necessary to perform many CAP duties, you become a safety and liability issue.
Its sad to see such a fine organization bow to noncontents that have essentially enabled us to have less standards as senior members than volunteer firemen.
We used to be such a priemer organization. Now we dumb down our standards, lawyer up to talke out small businesses over licencing issues and we now have a history of senior leadership (one is enough) that cheat and politic their way into dictatorial positions all for the sake of a title.
^ Amen, Brother!
We are the ONLY American military auxiliary with a battle history, yet we have people who refuse to wear the uniform of the United States, and who threaten to quit if asked to perform any duty approaching a military standard.
It is a long crawl out of the toilet.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 04, 2011, 01:50:14 PM
It is a long crawl out of the toilet.
Not to mention you come out smelling like crap.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 02, 2011, 12:39:52 AM
Hawk:
We TRIED to do multiple weekends/multiple saturdays, but our group is as busy as a mongoose in a cobra pit, and it became too much of a PITA to schedule and manage. Plus the local commanders wanted their people trained up quicker so they can use them. Our current training goes from 0700 on Saturday to 2030 with two breaks for meals, and 0800 to 1630 on Sunday.
We also tried to award 2nd Lt. to graduates of the program, waiving the 6-month TIG requirement. National HQ disapproved our request for an exception to policy.
We discuss the senior program awards during the PD class, and the cadet awards briefly in the Cadet Programs class. I also have a powerpoint on CAP awards, but the schedule is pretty full, and I have not been able to work it in. I keep it in reserve in case an instructor finishes early. In the room where the training takes place in my HQ are posters with CAP awards, insignia, and history.
Would you mind sharing more about the course? Whats covered, material, etc.?
From what I am reading I hold my Boy Scouts to a higher standard than CAP holds it's Senior Members.
The issue with CAP adult professional development courses is a challenge, primarily for two reasons. 1. The level of education of individual members and 2. The "reasonable" time/cost requirements to attend the course.
IF you make a course to difficult, than some of the slow learners in the program won't be able to achieve ANY PD. I think CAP tries to develop courses that the typical senior/adult member can understand and complete successfully. IF you make the time or cost requirements to high, than members likely won't expend the effort because they have personal time availability issues OR just don't have the disposable income to participate.
Last year our wing IG made the comment that IF members aren't progressing in professional development, than perhaps we needed to review whether we needed to retain them. I personally believe that this is too harsh, because I know members that have been in the program a very long time BUT have not completed very much PD training, YET they are VERY dedicated to the squadron and do a lot :clap:
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 04:15:37 PM
Last year our wing IG made the comment that IF members aren't progressing in professional development, than perhaps we needed to review whether we needed to retain them.
It depends on what level they are participating in. If you're working in a squadron, there really is no need to ever go beyond technician rating (though it would be nice). However, if you're on group or wing staff and haven't progressed to an appropriate PD level, then perhaps there is an issue.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 04:15:37 PM
The issue with CAP adult professional development courses is a challenge, primarily for two reasons. 1. The level of education of individual members and 2. The "reasonable" time/cost requirements to attend the course.
IF you make a course to difficult, than some of the slow learners in the program won't be able to achieve ANY PD. I think CAP tries to develop courses that the typical senior/adult member can understand and complete successfully. IF you make the time or cost requirements to high, than members likely won't expend the effort because they have personal time availability issues OR just don't have the disposable income to participate.
Last year our wing IG made the comment that IF members aren't progressing in professional development, than perhaps we needed to review whether we needed to retain them. I personally believe that this is too harsh, because I know members that have been in the program a very long time BUT have not completed very much PD training, YET they are VERY dedicated to the squadron and do a lot :clap:
RM
We boot cadets for "not progressing in the program", why not seniors? It's not like seniors have a time limit like cadets do.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 04:15:37 PMLast year our wing IG made the comment that IF members aren't progressing in professional development, than perhaps we needed to review whether we needed to retain them.
Listen to your IG.
Stagnated members who don't know the program are one of the core problems of CAP. Just because they are "active" doesn't mean they are "effective",
or couldn't be more so and have a better time if they understood the program better.
Quote from: PHall on February 27, 2011, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 04:15:37 PM
The issue with CAP adult professional development courses is a challenge, primarily for two reasons. 1. The level of education of individual members and 2. The "reasonable" time/cost requirements to attend the course.
IF you make a course to difficult, than some of the slow learners in the program won't be able to achieve ANY PD. I think CAP tries to develop courses that the typical senior/adult member can understand and complete successfully. IF you make the time or cost requirements to high, than members likely won't expend the effort because they have personal time availability issues OR just don't have the disposable income to participate.
Last year our wing IG made the comment that IF members aren't progressing in professional development, than perhaps we needed to review whether we needed to retain them. I personally believe that this is too harsh, because I know members that have been in the program a very long time BUT have not completed very much PD training, YET they are VERY dedicated to the squadron and do a lot :clap:
RM
We boot cadets for "not progressing in the program", why not seniors? It's not like seniors have a time limit like cadets do.
The comment from the IG was to review them. I think this is much better than a "progress or leave" rule.
Some examples
- Ima CPA is serving as Wing Finance Officer. Are you really going to bounce her for not wanting to take SLS? Or do you thank her for the service that would cost hundreds if you had to purchase it?
Maj Joe CP is on encampment staff every year. He can take 1 week off for CAP. Do you suggest RSC instead for this year?
I might be able to get behind a requirement that if you accept mission or professional advanced grade that you also agree to a time table to catch up to the related PD level. If you fail to meet it then you demote to what you have accomplished.
Quote from: phirons on February 27, 2011, 05:49:13 PM
- Ima CPA is serving as Wing Finance Officer. Are you really going to bounce her for not wanting to take SLS? Or do you thank her for the service that would cost hundreds if you had to purchase it?
Bounce? No. However someone who has not even completed SLS has no business on staff at the Wing level in the first place, so there would be
pressure.
Quote from: phirons on February 27, 2011, 05:49:13 PM
- Maj Joe CP is on encampment staff every year. He can take 1 week off for CAP. Do you suggest RSC instead for this year?
Professional appointments notwithstanding, majors looking to Level IV are different from CFI's brought in as Captains who can't be bothered with PD.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 27, 2011, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on February 27, 2011, 04:15:37 PMLast year our wing IG made the comment that IF members aren't progressing in professional development, than perhaps we needed to review whether we needed to retain them.
Listen to your IG.
Stagnated members who don't know the program are one of the core problems of CAP. Just because they are "active" doesn't mean they are "effective",
or couldn't be more so and have a better time if they understood the program better.
In business, thats called "The Peter Principle." People rise to the level of their own incompetence.
This happens in CAP a lot: people get into a position that they're marginally qualified for, and then stay there because they're "willing to do the job." Does not always mean they're the right person, or the most effective. A captain comm guy becomes the wing director of comm because he's the guy with the time to contribute, knowledge of radios, or is not afraid of climbing the big honking tower the wing repeater is on. But he's "too busy" to go to CLC or whatever else. Yeah, he has a high degree of technical competence, but his reports to region are always late, his wing-level comm plan is just the one from two years ago with a new date on it, etc. His "professional officer" competence is lacking.
Not all of that is necessarily fixed by CLC and/or RSC, but eventually, the peter principle thing starts to bite you on the butt when you have a HQ staff full of people who can "sorta" do the job, but not "really" and won't add professional competence to their skillz.
Its the difference between getting a "SAT" on the inspection, and getting a "BENCHMARK."
In the words of Maj Dunkle: "Adequacy is priority one!"
Lack of progression does not equal lack of competence in every case. We all have stories about the guys that don't progress and can't pour urine out of a boot without screwing it up. We all have stories about the guy that has level IV or V, is a Lt Col and can't pour urine out of a boot without screwing it up. We all have stories about the guy that has been a Capt since the 80's and does their job as well as anybody if not better. There are a couple of possible ways to handle it.
1. When we recruit new senior members we need to be very up front about our expectations for them and their progression. Don't recruit on the premise of "easy rank" or "cheap flying".
2. Be clear and concise on exactly what is needed for each promotion and PD level.
3. Make sure that our wings are providing ample training opportunities for each senior that are regularly scheduled and geographically accessible.
4. Incorporate the things that you think seniors lack(D&C, C&C, uniform wear) in a more formal and structured manner. Don't just say that seniors should be taught these things. Spell out exactly what should be taught down to specific drill commands. Then give both written and practical tests in order to pass Level 1.
We have a six month time frame after a senior joins to instill this type of thinking before we give them officer grade. (This is way better than the way we used to do it which was make them a 2nd Lt as soon as they joined.) Let's use this time more efficiently than we are now.
The only other solution might be to institute some sort of Warrant Officer type program that let's those with limited time to offer or those who are uninterested in the traditional senior PD type progression find a niche that works for them and doesn't deny the proram the benefits of what they can contribute.
^ Can't argue about that, though I'm a little gray on the boot thing.
One continued failing is an expectation by unit CC's that somehow their people will get training even though their unit has no plan or program.
PD is the direct responsibility of the unit.
I think changing things just to change things is dumb.
There's already enough red tape to build a duffel bag out of.
I have no problem with careeer Captains or Lieutenants. as long as they're doing the job they were assigned to. I do sit down with every member and let them know what they have to do to get promoted, but at the end it's up to them to meet the requirements.