OK so we've all heard the debates about whether or not to have emergency lights/sirens on POV's. That is not what this thread is about. I bought a magnet from an on-line SAR distributor that says simply enough "Search & Rescue." I just wanted everyone to throw in their two cents worth about what y'all do to mark you vehicles en route to a mission. 8)
wouldn't the big white van with "Civil Air Patrol" on the side be obvious enough?
Not sure we've talked about lights on personal owned vehicles, though the topic has come up a lot in relation to CAP-owned vehicles.
I used to have one of those CAP license plates on the front of my car, but that was just more to show my CAP affiliation. Don't see any need for markings on vehicles used only to transport to base or squadron HQ.
Now, if you're conducting the actual mission from a POV, a magnetic sign would come in handy.
Our van has a "Search & Rescue" sign on the back, nothing big or fancy.
I think the prior discussion was about having lights ON CAP vehicles instead of personal vehicles.
I bought two of the large CAP emblems (blue circle with the three bladed prop and Civil Air Patrol across the bottom) and some magnetic sheet. Stick the emblem decal onto the sheet and cut out around it. They work nicely on the doors of your POV. I suppose you could do the same with the CAP shield.
Quote from: spacecommand on December 12, 2010, 01:53:05 AM
Our van has a "Search & Rescue" sign on the back, nothing big or fancy.
I think the prior discussion was about having lights ON CAP vehicles instead of personal vehicles.
CAPR 77-1?
cite please... 8)
Quote from: ELTHunter on December 12, 2010, 02:04:46 AM
I bought two of the large CAP emblems (blue circle with the three bladed prop and Civil Air Patrol across the bottom) and some magnetic sheet. Stick the emblem decal onto the sheet and cut out around it. They work nicely on the doors of your POV. I suppose you could do the same with the CAP shield.
I have the same decals for my POV although they don't get used much anymore.
I haven't checked the new regulation 77-1 yet but I believe the triangle prop decal is the only one allowed for POV's (hense the CAP NASCAR car only had this).
Check with your wing ES officer and your state vehicle code, that will give you the best information. Your state vehicle laws will give the best information as to what constitutes an emergency vehicle.
CAPR 900-2, CIVIL AIR PATROL SEAL, EMBLEM AND FLAG ETIQUETTE, states that shown below.
3d. The CAP emblem may generally be used on (also see Table 1):
2) Member–owned vehicles used for CAP business upon written approval of the wing or region commander as appropriate. Such approval will be granted only where its use would reflect favorably upon CAP.
Quote from: Lord of the North on December 12, 2010, 06:24:58 AM
CAPR 900-2, CIVIL AIR PATROL SEAL, EMBLEM AND FLAG ETIQUETTE, states that shown below.
3d. The CAP emblem may generally be used on (also see Table 1):
2) Member–owned vehicles used for CAP business upon written approval of the wing or region commander as appropriate. Such approval will be granted only where its use would reflect favorably upon CAP.
i.e. not if your mom's car looks like this...
(http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/dsc01287.jpg)
GHOST BUSTERS!!!
One way to get "free" magnetic material is talk to candidates after an election. The magnetic signs they may have for cars are ideal to mount the CAP emblem on for POV. They can be cut to the shape of the emblem for mounting. But don't forget it does take Wing CC approval to mount these on a POV.
Some years ago, in the spirit of those magnets that started out at the CAP Bookstore, I designed a magnet with the CAP emblem and three lines that said "Official Business - Civil Air Patrol - US Air Force Auxiliary" A sign maker produced them for free - just high-performance vinyl on a big magnet. A bunch of those were produced (including some with the unit name).
My wing had the MAJCOM printed on mag signs - simple, professional, approved, done.
FYI - the PC-printable sheets last about three blocks...
Quote from: Eclipse on December 12, 2010, 04:59:29 PM
My wing had the MAJCOM printed on mag signs - simple, professional, approved, done.
Not for use on POV's
Quote from: cap235629 on December 12, 2010, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 12, 2010, 04:59:29 PM
My wing had the MAJCOM printed on mag signs - simple, professional, approved, done.
Not for use on POV's
You must have missed the word "approved", above.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 12, 2010, 05:30:43 PM
Quote from: cap235629 on December 12, 2010, 05:28:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 12, 2010, 04:59:29 PM
My wing had the MAJCOM printed on mag signs - simple, professional, approved, done.
Not for use on POV's
You must have missed the word "approved", above.
By a NHQ approved supplement that authorizes a violation of 77-1? I would love to see that!
I have the blue/silver rectangular ones that say "official business" "Civil Air Patrol" on them.
If I park someplace and setup a table/post I'll place the round CAP one on something metal as well, or lean it on the glass so it's visible as to why we are "there".
I kinda skipped around the whole issue by the "Search & Rescue" magnet instead of "Civil Air Patrol." When you are going down the road to a mission and someone sees a random vehicle with "Civil Air Patrol" on it what do they think? "Oh that's the Air Force Auxiliary! Cool!" Or is it "What in the heck is that?" Honestly...
Last I looked at the regulation when we were discussing the logo changes, NHQ wasn't even following the regulation in what is being put on vans and planes. The inquiry that (whoever that was) made to NHQ resulted, I believe, in only a reference to the letter that came with the first version of the command patch stickers.
Commando1, here are four cents from a non-CAP guy's perspective:
Discreet, understated, modest, unostentatious.
There are eight or so things that will raise the eyebrows of LE-based SAR folks, and potentially earn you an unflattering nickname. Showing up in a vehicle or a uniform that looks like something found in a NASCAR pit is one of them. (Eclipse, that Ham car is priceless! Permission to copy and use in teaching?) ;D
--Senty
I think the magnets are a good option, unless you feel the need to have giant magnets all over the car. The reason that I had them made is because we were doing A LOT of missions at PHL which is one of the busiest airports in the world. They often want to know what the car sitting (insert location here) is doing, especially when there are people in BDUs with funny equipment looking at the runway area, hangers, and such.
^ Concur. The goal is simply to identify your vehicle as belonging to the official hoohaw going on nearby. It doesn't need to be seen from low-earth orbit, nor are you driving Code 3.
We issue each member two 3x4-inch window stickers for the lower right front windshield and lower left rear window of their POV. Nothing else is authorized.
Quote from: Senty7 on December 12, 2010, 09:30:53 PM(Eclipse, that Ham car is priceless! Permission to copy and use in teaching?)
Have at it - see hamsexy.com for plenty more.
About 10 years or so ago several of us from my Group HQ staff were often called out for middle of the night UDF/ELT searches in our part of the wing.
We wore uniforms, took our POVs (meeting at a central location so we could link up), made sure we notified local LEO agencies if we were going to be traipsing thru their turf in BDUs with weird looking DF equipment in the dead of night!
If we had to get escorted onto a taxiway or other airport thoroughfare, we used the vehicle's emergency flashers.
My point is, if you're not using a CAP vehicle, why do you need any special identification on your POV? You have uniforms, ID cards, and, if necessary, telephone access to your IC and the AFRCC (to establish your credentials, if needed).
Quote from: ZigZag911 on December 13, 2010, 05:26:09 AM
About 10 years or so ago several of us from my Group HQ staff were often called out for middle of the night UDF/ELT searches in our part of the wing.
We wore uniforms, took our POVs (meeting at a central location so we could link up), made sure we notified local LEO agencies if we were going to be traipsing thru their turf in BDUs with weird looking DF equipment in the dead of night!
If we had to get escorted onto a taxiway or other airport thoroughfare, we used the vehicle's emergency flashers.
My point is, if you're not using a CAP vehicle, why do you need any special identification on your POV? You have uniforms, ID cards, and, if necessary, telephone access to your IC and the AFRCC (to establish your credentials, if needed).
I guess that's fine if you never leave the area of your vehicle where if someone like a police officer showed up and wondered what you were doing at the little airport in the middle of the night, they'd be able to see you. That might also include the airport manager, a concerned citizen, the neighborhood watch, security for the office complex next door, a transit authority, railroad police...
I know that I'm more concerned about making sure we're close to the vehicle than we are about the ELT. In some states, notifying local law enforcement for each place that you might be is pretty difficult. There are 49 municipalities in my county. We'd often do an ELT search through 3 counties, sometimes more - sometimes 3 states.
A while back I was offered a free arrow stick out of a parted out cop car, just pay shipping. I considered it until I realized that it was impractical, both from usage and installation perspectives. Five years ago, usage would not have been an issue, but today, I just don't get out on nearly as many missions. Installation involves messing with the headliner, which has carburetor* issues. I decided it wasn't worth the hassles.
*carburetor = French for "don't [frack] with it"; it is a mechanic's joke.
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter >:D. I know, I know, safety first...But I also live close to a state park, and the Park Rangers loved my magnet becuase it wasn't some random dude along the side of the road with his hazards on. I was a trained professional who was not gonna be a liability to the park. My magnet is also reflective for added safety at night. 8)
Quote from: commando1 on December 13, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter >:D.
And when you get pulled over and try to talk your way out of it because you're on a mission, the cop's gonna laugh and write you the same ticket as everyone else.
Quote from: commando1 on December 13, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter >:D. I know, I know, safety first...But I also live close to a state park, and the Park Rangers loved my magnet becuase it wasn't some random dude along the side of the road with his hazards on. I was a trained professional who was not gonna be a liability to the park. My magnet is also reflective for added safety at night. 8)
As an IC, the attitude you have displayed above, would be enough, that I would be having a serious conversation with you and your squadron commander with a copy to the Wing King/Queen about the need to decertify your ratings until remedial training was accomplished.
Quote from: commando1 on December 13, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter
That is just a dangerous mindset to think that your arrival at the site is more important than the safety of yourself and others. Some people think that they are God's gift to SAR, just so you know there is a bigger picture, safety is the bigger picture, safety of your team, safety of the mission and safety of yourself. Getting to the site a few seconds earlier is nothing worth the risk involved with speeding especially when your mind is already on another subject and not on the drive at hand.
I reject the initial premise: I would not characterize CAP vehicles as "emergency vehicles" within the commonly accepted use of the term.
Major Lord
Quote from: commando1 on December 13, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter >:D.
Members like you are one of the main reasons many other members spend so much time doing damage control. The cop who gives you a ticket will talk about the "clown from CAP who thought he could run emergency without lights or a siren in his car." with the other cops on his shift, department, and neighboring departments. They will forget the 100 CAP members who showed up to help with sandbagging or clean up after a disaster, but they will NEVER forget the clown.
Quote from: Major Lord on December 13, 2010, 06:58:32 PM
I reject the initial premise: I would not characterize CAP vehicles as "emergency vehicles" within the commonly accepted use of the term.
An excellent point, and one which would likely squash even the most liberal interpretation of state laws that some people wave around as justification for making their cars look like drag race Christmas tree.
Why not just say that POVs should not be marked at all unless they are the vehicle used by the IC Section Chief or GTL (GTL only when moving from the CP to the sortie location). CAP provides vehicles to as many units as possible with active ground teams, those vehicles are the ones that should be used as much as possible, they are marked properly and everyone with a need to know knows that when that vehicle is moving down the road in a manner that seems somewhat awkward give it some room. They (LEO and any other organization we work with) knows what is going on and that is what matters. POVs should not be "running code" or anything out of the ordinary, it is both dangerous and unprofessional, most importantly is dangerous.
The best thing that I could come up with is to meet at your normal unit meeting location and move to the CP together following the corporate vehicle. That helps ensure safety of the whole team and mission. If the CP is the normal unit meeting location then have one of the senior officers (not just a senior member) meet the rest of the team at another meeting location and follow in together. These sort of small things done together in a team helps ensure safety. Safety is in numbers and in confidence in your team. Disregarding the law and safety compromises your integrity and makes it hard to put confidence in you. Pay attention to what you are doing, keep your mind on the mission at hand, when you are moving to your CP you are on a mission, and your mission is to report into your CP in a safe manner.
^ That presupposes that a team's members come from the same unit or even group, something incresingly rare in many wings, and certainly there is no guarantee that the equipment, vehicles, or area of response is in the same direction as the unit's meeting place.
You don't want to delay response just to go and punch in at the airport you meet at when the ELT is going off 180 in the other direction.
Quote from: commando1 on December 13, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter >:D .
..and furthering the thought of that, you know that goes on out there.
Can you say "can of worms"?
I just can't believe that a sanity check isn't run on some of these numbers reported on 108s against mission logs. A person checks into a mission at 1000, checks out at 1530 and submits a 108 for 650 miles. Do the math and see what you get :)
When did they have time to take bearings if the were covering all that territory while triple digit speeding around? Never mind the bearings, whats with all that balls to the wall driving? For what?
Thats not a far fetched example.
Quote from: a2capt on December 13, 2010, 07:39:45 PMI just can't believe that a sanity check isn't run on some of these numbers reported on 108s against mission logs. A person checks into a mission at 1000, checks out at 1530 and submits a 108 for 650 miles. Do the math and see what you get
I would say that this is history - certainly the 108's in my wing have been audited pretty thoroughly, even to the point of questioning mileage on a COV pulling a COT.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2010, 07:37:36 PM
^ That presupposes that a team's members come form the same unit or even group, something incresingly rare in many wings, and certainly there is no guarantee that the equipment, vehicles, or area of response is in the same direction as the unit's meeting place.
You don't want to delay response just to go and punch in at the airport you meet at when the ELT is going off 180 in the other direction.
Very good point. Though around here most teams do come from a single unit, multiple units respond to one incident but most of the time teams come from individual units. It helps to ensure that a team knows how to operate together and are able to perform well together through a bond that can only come from training together. I do admit that that doesn't always work out, people have other commitments, jobs families that are there that sometimes have to take precedence so teams get put together at the CP. When that happens everyone has to keep a level head about themselves and get there safely.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2010, 07:43:46 PMI would say that this is history - certainly the 108's in my wing have been audited pretty thoroughly, even to the point of questioning mileage on a COV pulling a COT.
Time for some more FWA submissions then. Maybe they'll get the hint. It's certainly not history everywhere, apparently.
Question, none of y'all have ever done 60 in a 55? Guess not. I do not refer to running "Code 3." I am referring to responding with all due haste. 8)
Quote from: commando1 on December 15, 2010, 02:41:45 AM
Question, none of y'all have ever done 60 in a 55? Guess not. I do not refer to running "Code 3." I am referring to responding with all due haste. 8)
There is a difference in normal fudging the limit and speeding intentionally because your going to a mission. This "
Quote from: commando1 on December 13, 2010, 05:50:46 PM
I like my magnet becuase let's face it, on the way to a mission you are not gonna follow the speed limit to the letter >:D.
says the reason you're speeding is solely because you're on a mission. Which is the commonly accepted definition of running 'code 3' or 'emergent'.
Ok allow me to clarify. I feel like a school child...I WILL NOT SPEED EN ROUTE TO MISSION. >:D