I was at Wings Over Houston, and I was wearing my sunglasses because the sun just came out. I was asked by a senior member to take them off because they had the Oakley brand 'O' on the sides... These are prescription, so basically i need them for medical reasons... What do I do??? I see many others wear sunglasses and I wasn't even in formation. I have worn them at many other CAP events and this was the only time i was asked about them. My glasses that I wear to meetings also have a Oakley 'O' on them. (The 'O' isn't very big at all)
That's a first...
Usually Oakley is not the issue, mirrored sunglasses are a big no no.
They weren't. She said it was the 'O'. :-[
Not that my glasses where even mirrored.
Quote from: CAPM39-1 Para. 1-6aa. Appearance of Men in Uniform. Articles such as wallets, pencils, pens, watch chains, fobs,
pins, jewelry, handkerchiefs, combs, cigars, cigarettes, pipes, and sunglass cases will not be exposed on the
uniform. The wear of wristwatches and rings is permitted. The wear of identification bracelets is likewise
permitted provided they present a neat and conservative appearance. Conservative sunglasses may be worn,
except in military formation. Ribbons, when worn, will be clean and not frayed. Wear of earrings,
ornamentation on eyeglass lenses, or visible ornaments around the neck are prohibited while in uniform.
Emphasis mine.
I do not see a prohibition of logos there, but if you disputed it he could say that she doesn't consider the Oakley O to be conservative. I have regular Oakley glasses which used to have the O until both fell off (they're around 6 years old now) and I do not consider the O's to be non-conservative or in violation of this reg.
Thanks, i will need to talk to her about this.
well it depends?
Was the "O" logo subdued, or was it bright pink?
just the fact that the "O" was there is silly. Oakley has been the brand of choice for the Military for quite some time now and they seem to be getting on just fine.
Electric penguin,
Challenging Senior Members on their view of the regulations is often a non-productive exercise.( Hey, just read some of the posts on this board and you will see what I mean) Especially if you are a Cadet. I strongly suggest you do not do it directly, but go through either your normal chain of (Senior) command, or through a Chaplain ( We don't have many cadets with drugs, pregnancy, or dropping school issues, so Chaplains get lonely with no drama....) Deal with Senior Members who are not in your direct chain of command like strange dogs and you won't get bit! If the SM claims god-like knowledge of the 39-1 and all of its visible and invisible aspects, your commander can ask them to share their valuable experience and knowledge when it comes time to teach a uniform class!
If your sun glasses look too Liberace-like ( Google it if you are not old enough to know who Liberace was) Don't wear them with your uniform.
Major Lord
sounds like a safety issue.........I can read it now, CADET WAS TOLD BY SENIOR MEMBER TO REMOVE GLASSES. CADET WAS THEN WAS VISUALY IMPAIRED AND WALKED INTO AIRPLANE. :D
He's probably running off of the military's practice. I don't know the specifics, but basically prominent commercial logos are prohibited. The Oakley "O"s aren't prominent enough for the military to care and many servicemen wear them freely.
That said, just because the military does it one way doesn't mean we do. There is no CAP regulation barring us from having commercial logos on authorized accouterments. Your senior member has his regs mixed up and is in the wrong. Bring it up gently in your chain of command, request a quotation of regulation. Its a lot easier for a person to look up a reg realize that it doesn't exist than for you to tell them they're wrong.
Show us what you were wearing.
"medical reasons" is generally what cadets use when they want to try and break a reg they knew about before leaving the house in the morning.
There are Oakleys...
(http://oakleypolarizedsunglasses.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/oakley-polarized-sunglasses.jpg)
(http://www.geekeyeglasses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/oakley-voltage-40-glasses-1.jpg)
(http://www.surfdome.com/imagessurfdomecom/large/25776_large.jpg)
and there are Oakleys...
(http://www.sunglasses-shop.co.uk/sunglassesnews/february-2009/images/Oakley-Proaganda.jpg)
(http://www.sportfusion.co.uk/images/p/l/1/11892/Oakley-Sunglasses-Oakley-Radar-Path-Sunglasses-White-Chrome.jpg)
(http://www.sportfusion.co.uk/images/p/l/1/11888/Oakley-Sunglasses-Oakley-Jawbone-Sunglasses-Retina-Burn.jpg)
As mentioned, there is no specific prohibition regarding commercial logos on the glasses, but the definition of what is allowed is pretty
subjective, and as was also mentioned, mirrored lenses are generally frowned upon if not outright prohibited, especially for aircrew.
My suggestion to everyone would be to pickup the standard-issue AO's that every pilot in the USAF wears.
(http://www.surfdome.com/imagessurfdomecom/large/25776_large.jpg)
Quote from: Major Lord on November 11, 2010, 11:00:21 PM
Electric penguin,
Challenging Senior Members on their view of the regulations is often a non-productive exercise.( Hey, just read some of the posts on this board and you will see what I mean) Especially if you are a Cadet. I strongly suggest you do not do it directly, but go through either your normal chain of (Senior) command, or through a Chaplain ( We don't have many cadets with drugs, pregnancy, or dropping school issues, so Chaplains get lonely with no drama....) Deal with Senior Members who are not in your direct chain of command like strange dogs and you won't get bit! If the SM claims god-like knowledge of the 39-1 and all of its visible and invisible aspects, your commander can ask them to share their valuable experience and knowledge when it comes time to teach a uniform class!
If your sun glasses look too Liberace-like ( Google it if you are not old enough to know who Liberace was) Don't wear them with your uniform.
Major Lord
I wasn't going to 'challenge' her...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 01:31:27 AM
Show us what you were wearing.
"medical reasons" is generally what cadets use when they want to try and break a reg they knew about before leaving the house in the morning.
There are Oakleys...
(http://oakleypolarizedsunglasses.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/oakley-polarized-sunglasses.jpg)
(http://www.geekeyeglasses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/oakley-voltage-40-glasses-1.jpg)
(http://www.surfdome.com/imagessurfdomecom/large/25776_large.jpg)
and there are Oakleys...
(http://www.sunglasses-shop.co.uk/sunglassesnews/february-2009/images/Oakley-Proaganda.jpg)
(http://www.sportfusion.co.uk/images/p/l/1/11892/Oakley-Sunglasses-Oakley-Radar-Path-Sunglasses-White-Chrome.jpg)
(http://www.sportfusion.co.uk/images/p/l/1/11888/Oakley-Sunglasses-Oakley-Jawbone-Sunglasses-Retina-Burn.jpg)
As mentioned, there is no specific prohibition regarding commercial logos on the glasses, but the definition of what is allowed is pretty
subjective, and as was also mentioned, mirrored lenses are generally frowned upon if not outright prohibited, especially for aircrew.
My suggestion to everyone would be to pickup the standard-issue AO's that every pilot in the USAF wears.
(http://www.surfdome.com/imagessurfdomecom/large/25776_large.jpg)
Mine look like this:
http://www.oakley.com/products/4667/18099
Exept mine are all black other then the silver O.
I have the exact same pair, but with different style lenses. I wore them on a bivouac and no one cared.
Really, the SM in question has no idea what they're talking about. Those glasses are plenty conservative.
Also, are the glasses themselves prescription or the lenses?
Anyone else looking for sunglasses options go here:
https://secure.usstandardissue.com/
The models found there are generally more conservative than their commercial stuff (the "O" is also subdued) and are found a LOT cheaper then at a commercial vendor.
No need for thread derailment as it's been discussed here before, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
I would not call those "conservative", but would not require you to remove them in BDU's - I would not allow those to be worn with
blues, though.
(http://www.oakley.com/images/catalog/generated/750x350/e9/48ac6d929f9b8.jpg)
If her sole issue was the logo, that is silly. Professional low-key challenge is fine, knowing full well you will lose the "because I said so part"
if you can't make a good regulatory argument.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 01:51:24 AM
I would not call those "conservative", but would not require you to remove them in BDU's - I would not allow those to be worn with
blues, though.
This is a valid point, while some things are appropriate for BDU's,
Others just look silly with blues.
Use your best judgement.
I would have never known that was an "O" on the side until you pointed it out. 8)
I think the Senior was lame, absurd really. ??? 8)
I wouldn't care if the cadet wore them in blues as long as they weren't
red or neon green, etc. 8)
Quote from: HGjunkie on November 12, 2010, 01:45:00 AM
Also, are the glasses themselves prescription or the lenses?
Have you ever seen prescription frames?
Quote from: EMT-83 on November 12, 2010, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on November 12, 2010, 01:45:00 AM
Also, are the glasses themselves prescription or the lenses?
Have you ever seen prescription frames?
Well, there is a difference between having a doctor say "this is an option for your glasses" and "Hey, let's see if I can get my prescription lenses put in these hard-kewl frames!"
My frames are "prescription"- came with the lenses, specifically measured for my head, and I would never wear them as sunglasses- also are the basic type that come free with government insurance. Of course, they aren't at ALL hard-kewl. More like BCGs.
EDIT: putting the parentheses on prescription; seemed a little to literal before.
Quotea. Appearance of Men in Uniform. Articles such as wallets, pencils, pens, watch chains, fobs,
pins, jewelry, handkerchiefs, combs, cigars, cigarettes, pipes, and sunglass cases will not be exposed on the
uniform. The wear of wristwatches and rings is permitted. The wear of identification bracelets is likewise
permitted provided they present a neat and conservative appearance. Conservative sunglasses may be worn,
except in military formation. Ribbons, when worn, will be clean and not frayed. Wear of earrings,
ornamentation on eyeglass lenses, or visible ornaments around the neck are prohibited while in uniform.
Emphasis mine. Was it on the frame or the lens? Maybe you could point this out to them...
You don't need a prescription for frames. They might require measurement and fitting, but that can be done by non-medical people.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 12, 2010, 06:34:51 AM
You don't need a prescription for frames. They might require measurement and fitting, but that can be done by non-medical people.
I get that, I was merely pointing out the difference between the two scenarios. Perhaps I should have put prescription in parentheses.
CAP's Proscription caps CAP's Prescription.....
Major Lord
There is a significant difference between having prescription lenses in sunglasses and having a prescription to wear sunglasses. One is a personal choice, the other is a medical factor.
I know a couple people who, due to their previous "immortality factor" (aka stupid years) have damaged their eyes and have a medical prescription that requires them to wear sunglasses when outside or when looking outside.
That is what is meant by having prescription sunglasses. The medical need to wear sunglasses is what is covered by the prescription exception to the "no sunglasses in formation" rule, not merely having prescription lenses.
That being said, when you're not in formation, there is no blanket prohibition against wearing sunglasses.
^ We had an otherwise squared-away cadet last year who was sitting in chow wearing some decidedly "extreme" Oakley's while eating.
"but these are prescription..."
"didn't we see you wearing 'normal' classes earlier...?
"Yes, but these look cooler."
"Ahem.
"Yes, sir".
IMHO, If at an activity, and the only glasses with prescription lenses that the cadet happens to have with them happen to be sunglasses, or glasses with photo-grey/brown lenses, then ordering removal would constitute a safety/medical hazard whether in formation or not. I would recommend that the cadet bring regular prescription glasses next time (if they have them), but I would not demand that they be removed.
Many people who wear glasses (me included) have only 1 pair with photo-grey/brown lenses that automatically change. You really can't demand that they go spend $100+ to get another pair because they may have to stand in formation outside for a few minutes. I've worn photo-grey glasses for years, even while I was in the military, and it was never an issue.
I agree to a point, the point being where a cadet knows better and tries to play the prescription card to get away with something.
This is the same issue with berets, boonies, and Kevlar battle helmets (don't ask ::)). If they were worn when and how they were
intended, few would care, but these things tend to show up in inappropriate places.
Most modern photo-grays change pretty quickly, and are a non-issue.
Unless you are Cadet Scott Summers, if you have prescription sunglasses odds are pretty good you also have regular glasses for night wear.
As to cost, no one has to spend $100 on sunglasses - that is a choice - AO's cost $20 and your local big-box has a rack of glasses that will fill the bill for $6 in the summer.
^ With that said, one way to mitigate this is to figure out where the sun is, and turn your formations to face in the other direction.
Granted this isn't always an option, but I have seen far too many situations where 100 people are squinting and crying facing the bright dawn while the commander or instructor is off discussing breakfast with his staff.
I'm sensitive to this because I am tall - when I am teaching my motorcycle classes, people have to look up to me and if I have the sun to my shoulder wind up being blinded for their next run. I try to move my position so that I am facing the sun and they aren't.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 03:17:24 PM
Most modern photo-grays change pretty quickly, and are a non-issue.
Very true. Additionally, it's obvious (usually) that you're not changing glasses between inside and outside.
QuoteUnless you are Cadet Scott Summers, if you have prescription sunglasses odds are pretty good you also have regular glasses for night wear.
Doesn't mean you can wear the night glasses during the day, if you have prescription sunglasses for sun sensitivity.
QuoteAs to cost, no one has to spend $100 on sunglasses - that is a choice - AO's cost $20 and your local big-box has a rack of glasses that will fill the bill for $6 in the summer.
Be careful of these. Many are NOT optically neutral. BTDT - the hard way.
Quote from: arajca on November 12, 2010, 04:17:47 PM
As to cost, no one has to spend $100 on sunglasses - that is a choice - AO's cost $20 and your local big-box has a rack of glasses that will fill the bill for $6 in the summer.
Be careful of these. Many are NOT optically neutral. BTDT - the hard way.
[/quote]
The AO's or the gas station ones? With the $6 ones you get what you pay for, but with the AO's the only issue I have ever had is the
polarization can some times make watches and LCD screens look solid black.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 07:13:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 12, 2010, 04:17:47 PM
As to cost, no one has to spend $100 on sunglasses - that is a choice - AO's cost $20 and your local big-box has a rack of glasses that will fill the bill for $6 in the summer.
Be careful of these. Many are NOT optically neutral. BTDT - the hard way.
The AO's or the gas station ones? With the $6 ones you get what you pay for, but with the AO's the only issue I have ever had is the
polarization can some times make watches and LCD screens look solid black.
[/quote]
Thats the case with just about all polarized lenses, which is why they are not recommended for aircrew (if not already flat out banned).
Had to chime in due to the location of the event. Wings Over Houston has many different military and para-military organizations present as I'm sure other large airshows do. The last time I was there one of my cadets was chewed out by a gung-ho State Guard NCO in full battle gear for not wearing a "cover". Way to go NCO for making a 13 year old new cadet feel like crap, but that's another issue.
My point is that there are several CAP units present and the OP didn't mention if the SM was in their chain of command or not or even in the same unit. The real issue here may not be the glasses, but possibly an over zealous, reg misquoting SM who power trips on enforcing regs their opinion.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2010, 03:23:34 PM
^ With that said, one way to mitigate this is to figure out where the sun is, and turn your formations to face in the other direction.
Exactly. Better that the commander deal with the sun than 20+ people. The gratitude that you earn by taking care of your people is worth the spotty vision and headache (at least that's what I get when I end up facing the sun).
Seriously, read what Eclipse wrote. One of the best pieces of advice for anyone who will ever be in charge of an outdoor formation of people.
I'd understand if they were these Oakleys...
(http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/oakley.jpg)
However, since they are the Flak Jackets, I think your senior just needs to be informed in what constitutes "conservative" glasses from her peers/higher-ups. (AKA: Not a cadet.)
Oakley glasses are nearly all I see any Real Military wear these days, and they are the brand of choice for both seniors and cadets here in VAWG. They're treated just as any other sunglasses. And for those that say a $10 pair of saftey sunglasses from Wally World or dollar mart is just as good, you are sadly misinformed. Oakley SI sunglasses (around $40-$80 a pair for non-polarized lenses) are the only inexpensive glasses I've used that don't give me a headache right after putting them on. And the clarity is best in its price range! And did I mention they're Z87.1 rated.
Gee.. maybe this "prescription" is "gee, look at my $220 Oakleys".. Sure, the doc may have said "wear sunglasses" but .. then you had better have them on while looking out the window, too. ;)
Quote from: HGjunkie on November 12, 2010, 01:45:00 AM
I have the exact same pair, but with different style lenses. I wore them on a bivouac and no one cared.
Really, the SM in question has no idea what they're talking about. Those glasses are plenty conservative.
Also, are the glasses themselves prescription or the lenses?
... The lenses on them are... You can tell because on mine the lenses are a little bit thicker. Also, I was in BDUs
I consider this (your prescription sunglasses) a non issue. As you said you were not in formation. Even more so they are prescription and taking into consideration bright sunny day as well. #1 issue here is SAFETY for yourself, protect your eye's and see where your going. Keep your head high and wear your "O's" with pride! Thank you Cadet for your service!
Senior Member and wearer of prescription "O"s' also...
Worry about your eyes first. I have the exact same glasses (non-prescription). I often wear them when outside in BDUs. I personally have not had any issues. The regs also appear to be in your favor. I find that common sense generally should and generally does rule in the end (as it appears to have here). Your health and wellbeing come first. I've seen commanders allow odd out of regulation things to occur in the name of safety (for example allowing a cadet to wear dark sneakers on a big hike since he was new and his boots were not broken in) which proves that safety should be one of our first concerns. Best of luck and stay safe.
I wear Half Jackets all the time in uniform and have never caught any flak for them. OTHOH, I'm a Senior Member, so uniform-Nazi peers may be more hesitant to (mistakenly) correct me than a cadet with similar sunglasses.
Now, 39-1 DOES say "free of ornamentation on frames and lenses" but it's a pretty long stretch to consider the subtle "O" ornamentation. Besides that, your personal safety comes a long way before proper uniform. if they're the only sunglasses you have available, wear them.
Some people get a little carried away about small things. I currently have an active duty WO1 student that wears Oakleys with a stripe type design. He was wearing the same glasses when he was burned while deployed. He had to have skin grafts on his face (does not look bad), but told me the glasses saved his vision. He is understandably partial to them. On the other hand, a directive came out on Friday that students cannot wear sunglasses inside ops, as well as they cannot remove their ACU tops when preflighting (it gets hot out there).
Can't take your ACU tops off when preflighting???? Don't tell that to the 160th SOAR guys...they are famous for working in OD Brown T shirts and Black shorts
Quote from: SARDOC on May 28, 2011, 09:04:41 PM
Can't take your ACU tops off when preflighting???? Don't tell that to the 160th SOAR guys...they are famous for working in OD Brown T shirts and Black shorts
In country yes, however, I have never seen them once out of uniform while in garrison. In country, hardly anyone is in proper uniform in an area where 160th would operate unless out on patrol. I used to walk from my hooch to the chow hall and phone in body armor and shorts and boots... that's about it.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 28, 2011, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on May 28, 2011, 09:04:41 PM
Can't take your ACU tops off when preflighting???? Don't tell that to the 160th SOAR guys...they are famous for working in OD Brown T shirts and Black shorts
In country yes, however, I have never seen them once out of uniform while in garrison. In country, hardly anyone is in proper uniform in an area where 160th would operate unless out on patrol. I used to walk from my hooch to the chow hall and phone in body armor and shorts and boots... that's about it.
I've seen them doing extensively here on multiple dets as well. We were jealous because our unit wouldn't let us do the same...and believe me...it was hot
Quote from: SARDOC on May 28, 2011, 11:48:39 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 28, 2011, 11:09:57 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on May 28, 2011, 09:04:41 PM
Can't take your ACU tops off when preflighting???? Don't tell that to the 160th SOAR guys...they are famous for working in OD Brown T shirts and Black shorts
In country yes, however, I have never seen them once out of uniform while in garrison. In country, hardly anyone is in proper uniform in an area where 160th would operate unless out on patrol. I used to walk from my hooch to the chow hall and phone in body armor and shorts and boots... that's about it.
I've seen them doing extensively here on multiple dets as well. We were jealous because our unit wouldn't let us do the same...and believe me...it was hot
Where were you stationed brother?
Seems kind of Absurd. I realize, boy do I realize that CAP is not the Military, and the Military is not CAP, because as a Mitchell Cadet and the son of an O-6 SOW commander on the AFB where my squadron met. I thought I was pretty sierra hotel, but five years ago as a spankin new Private in the U.S. Army I knew those days were behind me. The first blow was when I found out that awesome Mitchell award does not get you E-3 but E-2 in the Army. But enough about me, back to the sunglasses issue. Which is where I was heading with the CAP is not the military thing is that before my first deployment to Iraq I was issued by the U.S. Govt A pair of Oakley M frame sunglasses with a big silver O on the side. And the above comments regarding our buddies in TF. How about wearing multicam A2CU's when everyone else in this theater...for the next well until the end of the year is wearing ACU pattern A2CU's...However they want to remain under the radar. ;D