No more Hock Shop. CAP Corporate wins.
I hope they're happy. I hope they feel a great sense of pride in doing their community, state, and nation a great service by getting rid of all these "horrific" people selling CAP items during times when the "official" stores could barely even put a catalog of CAP items together. Tom Flanagan, thank you for your service to CAP. You will greatly be missed.
Thanks for your service Tom. Sorry this happened. Make the best of it and enjoy your retirement.
NOOOOOO! :'(
Sorry it happened, but it was inevitable. The web site was an atrocious mess, as if GeoCities crashed landed and blew bits all over the place. Adding the other products and expanding the scope was a great idea but when the "store front" looked like 5 year olds put it together, and the presentation verbiage had political overtones on it. It does make you wonder what you are getting into.
The home page made a big deal about a "New Web Site!!!" and the next click revealed the same old crud, just half arsed up some more with the removal of stuff but leaving non-functional buttons right in the middle of it. People generally see that stuff and think it's a zombie site, not working.
Tom was obviously burnt out a long time ago, and if he's been doing this on various scales for 47 years, I'd say it was bound to shut down at any rate real soon anyway.
Quote from: a2capt on November 10, 2010, 02:54:25 PM
Sorry it happened, but it was inevitable. The web site was an atrocious mess, as if GeoCities crashed landed and blew bits all over the place. Adding the other products and expanding the scope was a great idea but when the "store front" looked like 5 year olds put it together, and the presentation verbiage had political overtones on it. It does make you wonder what you are getting into.
The home page made a big deal about a "New Web Site!!!" and the next click revealed the same old crud, just half arsed up some more with the removal of stuff but leaving non-functional buttons right in the middle of it. People generally see that stuff and think it's a zombie site, not working.
Tom was obviously burnt out a long time ago, and if he's been doing this on various scales for 47 years, I'd say it was bound to shut down at any rate real soon anyway.
So you could not just say thanks for your years of service? Instead you felt a need to belittle him and his business. Shame on you!
Just got this off Facebook. Score one for Vanguard and whoever at NHQ's getting the kickback. Yes, I mean that...
As you know, I have been prohibited by Civil Air Patrol from selling its distinctive insignia as well as any other licensable items. This action, I'm sure you're well aware, has had a devastating effect on my business. To replace the lost sales, I have two options. First, add a lot of new items that CAP members could use, or secondly, increase my customer base beyond the CAP membership and sell things that "civilians" would use – in effect start a new business. I have done both and found that to become successful again will take a long time and a lot of money. These are two things which I don't have. So, with a heavy heart, I am announcing my retirement, and the closing of "The Hock Shop", after serving the members of Civil Air Patrol with their needs for forty-seven years. I hope that I have fulfilled the oath I took over fifty years when I joined as a cadet to "be of service to my community, state and nation".
Effective immediately, my entire remaining inventory of sellable items is being offered at 25% off the regular price (This includes "bundle" lots!). Almost all items have fewer than a dozen or two remaining, so I would suggest that you hurry and place your order without delay as there will be no more once the current supply is depleted. When an item is sold out, it will be removed from the website. If our supply of an item runs out before we get to your order, you will receive a refund the same day. All orders will be filled in the order received. For items purchased during this sale, all sales are final. No returns for credit or exchange will be accepted. Now is the time to assess your needs both current and for the foreseeable future. You won't find savings like this again!
I'll miss you all. I've enjoyed your friendship and patronage, and wish you the best. Thanks for everything!
Tom Flanagan
The Hock Shop
Merged.
I will miss Tom and his service....I always found him to be above board and he provided quick service along with outstanding customer service as far as returns, errors, etc.
The comments by a2capt were uncalled for, but then some folks have no class I'm sorry to say.
A SALUTE to the Hock and Tom. Thank you for your service and your dedication to the members of CAP. You will be missed.
Capitalism is dying in America.
Um...no...it is actually thriving.
Why do people ignore the fact that this was a for profit business violating CAP's intellectual property rights? Its not like this was
some random unit member who was selling patches to send cadets to encampment.
He was so successful that a far-too large segment of the membership joined and left thinking his was the official source for CAP
merchandise and uniform items.
People also tend to forget the fact that the majority of what he sold was inferior, knock-off items with detail, color, and quality issues, and by no means was he giving this stuff away - his prices were as much or more than other sources, including the depot, CAPMart, and now VG.
^ Hock lost me as a consumer when it took them 8 weeks to get me nametapes that didn't match any other tapes I've seen. That was in 2003. Let's also not forget that he was not authorized to sell CAP merchandise.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2010, 08:09:48 PMPeople also tend to forget the fact that the majority of what he sold was inferior, knock-off items with detail, color, and quality issues, and by no means was he giving this stuff away - his prices were as much or more than other sources, including the depot, CAPMart, and now VG.
Bingo.
Prompt service, sure. But sub-prime stuff in a lot of the cases, too.
All those things might be true, but let's not forget that he provided a service to members that were often necessary due to CAP's own short comings. How many of us remember when ordering a simple ribbon or uniform shirt, could take months for order fulfillment when ordering from the book store or CAP Mart? Had CAP been able to adequately provide the services its members needed, he would not have been in business for 47 years.
So yes, we do owe him thanks and appreciation for his years of service and dedication.
I'm looking but can't find it...
Which core value is "The end justifies the means?"
Tom was in business for many years before CAP entered into a deal with Vanguard and began enforcing its copyrights.
You will find the "End justifies the means" value right after the "Ex Post Facto Enforcement" value.
A number of people on this board have indicated that he ignored C&D's for years, which, if true, is not quite the same thing.
Prior to VG, the entities selling insignia were a direct part of the corporation and were not mandated by contract to enforce the
property rights, VG is.
You might get what you pay for, but at least with Hock you get something when you order it. I'm still waiting for two orders from VG! :o
Hey Eclipse, we get it. Thanks.
I will miss the Hock on behalf of my cadets and future cadets. We used to order our "cadet starter packages" from the Hock which could get a new cadet completely outfitted with everything they needed (nameplates, nametapes, cutouts, BDU belt and hat, etc.) for about $48ish. With Vanguard the same package costs over $80.
Just one example (and not even a Civil Air Patrol-distinctive item, so don't get all huffy Eclipse) of where the Hock excelled with helping control costs especially for cadets:
The current cost of 1 blues belt with buckle from Hock: $2.62. Same belt from Vanguard: $13.80. That's about 600% more for the belt from Vanguard. Free shipping from the Hock, no free shipping on that belt from Vanguard.
I ordered a flight cap from Tom just last week. In the afternoon. It literally was in my mailbox the next day. I couldn't even believe it. Granted, I'm in the same geographic region but that means that as soon as my order came in, Tom picked and packaged it, and got it to the Post Office before close of business same day. That's service.
We could go on all night with these comparisons, but obviously every had their own experiences and has their own opinions. I for one am grateful to Tom for helping keep costs low for our cadets for a number of years, and also saving my rear-end on more than one occasion for a wing conference or other event where something I needed was shipped right out same day, with the correct items, and overnighted. I have a feeling that if I call up Vanguard and say "Hey I'm in a pinch, I need these items sent out in the next few hours, and overnighted" that I won't get the same cheery "can-do" (and did do) attitude I got from Tom and his staff.
I will miss the Hock.
Like Pylon said...the Hock was responsive to customer needs and would ship quickly....here is what I posted here on Sept 5 as an example of Vanguard's attitude....
I've had mixed results with Vanguard. Just recently I needed an Air Force item (not CAP specific) and I needed it within a week. I called the California store, they said it could ship by regular UPS and I would have it within the time frame. (Note: the California store is 90 minutes from my home). When it didn't arrive I called and was told that "orders are not processed for 3-5 business days unless you want to pay extra for special handling and shipping would be another 5 days "( remember how far away I said I was!!!) That is 10 business days for an in stock item to be shipped less than 100 miles! Of course I could have paid about $8 for special handling and $20 for overnight shipping for a $25 item. Double the cost of the item.
I've never had that kind of attitude at the Hock. Vanguard just doesn't seem to have the same regard for it's customers.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2010, 08:09:48 PM
Um...no...it is actually thriving.
Why do people ignore the fact that this was a for profit business violating CAP's intellectual property rights? Its not like this was
some random unit member who was selling patches to send cadets to encampment.
He was so successful that a far-too large segment of the membership joined and left thinking his was the official source for CAP merchandise and uniform items.
People also tend to forget the fact that the majority of what he sold was inferior, knock-off items with detail, color, and quality issues, and by no means was he giving this stuff away - his prices were as much or more than other sources, including the depot, CAPMart, and now VG.
I wish him the best in his retirement. He must have been doing something right for being in business for over 45 years serving a relatively small marketing niche of volunteers. :clap:
Of course his company does known what "customer service" is all about, perhaps Vanguard could hire him to teach them a thing or two :angel:
So who do you think the next small business will be that the big bad CAP will put out of business >:(
RM
I still have a catalog from when I was a cadet 15 years ago... His commitment to customer service will be sorely missed. I wonder if vanguard will start going after folks on Ebay. They are ridiculous.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 11, 2010, 12:02:00 AM
So who do you think the next small business will be that the big bad CAP will put out of business >:(
I really don't see this logic.
CAP is in control of its identity and who produces things with its name on it. You can't just go and start producing NFL gear and selling it in a store. People get arrested for selling unlicensed/counterfeit merchandise all the time.
CAP hasn't done anything wrong in trying to control the quality, quantity and manufacture of things that have their name on them. CAP has every right to make money off its own image, just like every other business does.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 11, 2010, 12:10:05 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 11, 2010, 12:02:00 AM
So who do you think the next small business will be that the big bad CAP will put out of business >:(
I really don't see this logic.
CAP is in control of its identity and who produces things with its name on it. You can't just go and start producing NFL gear and selling it in a store. People get arrested for selling unlicensed/counterfeit merchandise all the time.
CAP hasn't done anything wrong in trying to control the quality, quantity and manufacture of things that have their name on them. CAP has every right to make money off its own image, just like every other business does.
His a question for you -- He operated his business selling CAP merchandise for 45+ years, why did this become such a priority with CAP Inc at this time ??? :(
BTW I'm still waiting for the announcement from National as to who we can send our comments to regarding Vanguard performance >:D
RM
It doesn't matter why it became important now instead of then. CAP can exercise it's licensing rights as it sees fit. We have different leadership now than we did then. CAP is an entirely different animal now. Times change, the business has seen value in controlling the licensing of its brand.
To suggest that CAP is wrong in trying to control its image/insignia/etc is absurd, especially considering the number of people screaming about our national branding (or lack thereof), lack of a unified marketing message, etc is absurd. This is CAP acting like a real business for once, which is a good thing.
The other absurd thing is.. there are lots of venues that sell Vanguard stuff.
Perhaps .. thats all he needed to do. Perhaps that was looked into. But no, it turned into a pissing match. That the Hock stayed operating so long after the other C&Ds went out may be an indicator that they tried to let him wind down but instead he kept on trucking along. Because the certainly couldn't have not known the Hock was operating while they were going after little operations that just did name tapes and badges but not the larger operation that could fulfill the entire order. That just does not make sense, yet it was what happened. There had to be a reason.
I'm sure Tom was a nice guy,
But he was breaking the law.
That's the bottom line. Get mad at CAP or Vanguard, or whomever, but he was still violating Federal law.
How do you teach cadets core values like integrity while supporting an illegal activity?
It's called the all-mighty dollar. I have to admit when The Hock was selling CAP gear they saved me a good amount of money compared to vanguard- mostly shipping.
Tom knew what he was doing. Many years ago before Vanguard, Tom was told he couldn't order CAP ribbons. Instead he ordered the ribbons from a different source becasue the ribbons aren't or weren't copyrighted.
The Hock Shop was originally a fundraising operation for his home unit which according to his former Squadron Commander was appropriated by Tom Flannigan.
Bottom line is that for most of that 45 years, He has made a very good living off of CAP and it's membership. He was asked to get a license to sell the items and didn't-nuff said.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 11, 2010, 12:45:18 AMBTW I'm still waiting for the announcement from National as to who we can send our comments to regarding Vanguard performance >:D
RM
The first corporate officer in your chain of command, thru your chain of command.
Quote from: MSG Mac on November 11, 2010, 02:08:08 AM
He was asked to get a license to sell the items and didn't-nuff said.
Well actually that last part is less than accurate. Tom tried to get a license and work out a deal with Civil Air Patrol and couldn't get them to make any deals with him.
I can see the points on both sides but from what I ordered in the past his products were "like a box of chocolates". When compared to the embroidery from Vanguard the Hock's was pretty substandard. If it was anything on cloth I'd always order from the V.
Now that I think of it his ribbons weren't always the exact color shades either...
Quote from: jaybird512 on November 11, 2010, 04:08:59 AM
I can see the points on both sides but from what I ordered in the past his products were "like a box of chocolates". When compared to the embroidery from Vanguard the Hock's was pretty substandard. If it was anything on cloth I'd always order from the V.
Now that I think of it his ribbons weren't always the exact color shades either...
Nor were the wing patches. Or the cheap BDU Patrol Caps he sold. Or a lot of other stuff.
I don's see the need or the benefit for anyone to drag CAP or The Hock Shop in the mudd after this has taken place.
It is easy to critisize everyone involved when your not involved in the decision. I had nothing to do with it and know nothing about it. Why do people have to drag anyone down like The Hock Shop or CAP because they are not satisified with how it worked out.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 11, 2010, 11:57:42 AM
I don's see the need or the benefit for anyone to drag CAP or The Hock Shop in the mudd after this has taken place.
It is easy to critisize everyone involved when your not involved in the decision. I had nothing to do with it and know nothing about it. Why do people have to drag anyone down like The Hock Shop or CAP because they are not satisified with how it worked out.
Because that's what we do when we aren't satisfied with how something worked out. :P
We all knew what we would receive when we placed an order with Tom. Prompt, personal service and a quick resolution if something went wrong. At least that was always my experience.
Some of the clothing may not have suitable for every day, active duty use. For those of us who wear BDUs a couple of times a month, that's fine. To outfit a cadet who will outgrow his gear before it wears out, even better.
I'm going to miss the Hock Shop. Enjoy your retirement Tom.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 11, 2010, 12:45:18 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 11, 2010, 12:10:05 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 11, 2010, 12:02:00 AM
So who do you think the next small business will be that the big bad CAP will put out of business >:(
I really don't see this logic.
CAP is in control of its identity and who produces things with its name on it. You can't just go and start producing NFL gear and selling it in a store. People get arrested for selling unlicensed/counterfeit merchandise all the time.
CAP hasn't done anything wrong in trying to control the quality, quantity and manufacture of things that have their name on them. CAP has every right to make money off its own image, just like every other business does.
His a question for you -- He operated his business selling CAP merchandise for 45+ years, why did this become such a priority with CAP Inc at this time ??? :(
BTW I'm still waiting for the announcement from National as to who we can send our comments to regarding Vanguard performance >:D
RM
That would be your Commander to be forwared up the chain to the Wing Commander.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 11, 2010, 11:57:42 AM
I don's see the need or the benefit for anyone to drag CAP or The Hock Shop in the mudd after this has taken place.
It is easy to critisize everyone involved when your not involved in the decision. I had nothing to do with it and know nothing about it. Why do people have to drag anyone down like The Hock Shop or CAP because they are not satisified with how it worked out.
We did the same mud dragging when he was in business; nothing we haven't said before.
Quote from: capmaj on November 10, 2010, 01:05:01 PM
No more Hock Shop. CAP Corporate wins.
Tom provided a vital service for years and years when the CAP Bookstore hardly operated.
If there were problems with anything he sold, Tom was quick to rectify the problem.
For Vanguard, CAP is a tiny part of their business, hence the bad service. For Tom, CAP
was his business, hence the great service.
Good luck in your retirement, Tom.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 11, 2010, 11:57:42 AM
It is easy to critisize everyone involved when your not involved in the decision. I had nothing to do with it and know nothing about it. Why do people have to drag anyone down like The Hock Shop or CAP because they are not satisified with how it worked out.
It has been the
modus operandi of general CAPTALK culture to speculate, accept the speculation as fact and then make grandiose statements about all sorts of things from these "Facts."
That is the shortcoming of these forums...rumor milling at an amplified scale.
^ What in this discussion do you consider to be "rumor"?
Most of this is verifiable in writing from one or the other side, and/or public court documents?
I always got good, quick service from THS, and I will miss that.
I don't know about the politics behind all of it, nor do I wish to.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 10, 2010, 09:07:06 PM
I'm looking but can't find it...
Which core value is "The end justifies the means?"
That would be to accomplish the mission :)
The Hock Shop can still meet many needs of members. They can sell uniforms, name tags for BDUs, ES gear, some color guard equipment, about the ONLY thing Tom can' sell is insignia. The only restriction is if it has the name Civil Air Patrol, or any corporate emblem it can't be sold
Quote from: BillB on December 04, 2010, 12:40:05 PM
The Hock Shop can still meet many needs of members. They can sell uniforms, name tags for BDUs, ES gear, some color guard equipment, about the ONLY thing Tom can' sell is insignia. The only restriction is if it has the name Civil Air Patrol, or any corporate emblem it can't be sold
Except that didn't work for them, and they are shutting down. Having a Going Out of Business Sale right now, as a matter of fact.
The fact they put him out of buisness is sad. He served very well, and for 47 years, he actuallly did better than most small time buisnesses. I've personally bought stuff from him(Belt, brown undershirt, and a black buckle) and they all serve me well. It is, unless supplied by the same specific seller, hard to get 100% perfect BDU's. Since my squadron's on Otis ANGB and the local usaf gave us all of their BDU's(and some were patched up,which makes em valuable and much better cooler to re-align to CAP), and there is a great surplus store filled with quality blouses, bottoms, and such from the USAF/USA, getting matching color tops and bottoms ain't a problem. Also the BX sells CG Blues items, which there is no particular difference in the tops and shoes that makes them unusable, it ain't a problem for us. But for a person who ain't getting supplied by the military or military manufacturers, it ain't likely they will get the real tops and bottom's. It is undeniable. The BDU's have been knocked off by way too many companies anyways, some of which have butchered the colors badly, that actually locating the real thing at a cheap price is impossible. Those companies can even destroy the civilian sellers who are affilated with making uniforms for the military.
Lastly, THS was the biggest thing here in MAWG, since THS is located in Brockton, MA. His customers here were loyal for decades. Hope he lives a happy life.