Hello all,
A good friend of mind in another wing told me he had been demoted fro wearing a different cover than the squadron standard one and also making a joke to a subordinate (not a personal attack) now I realize I have a limited story, but I was wondering what this cadet could do to try and repeal this?
That story is more than limited- I can't see anyone being demoted for wearing a different cover and making a joke...
The cap- was he wearing a BDU cap instead of the squadron baseball cap? Or did he try to wear something RM, or or or?
The joke- Was it a sexual or racist/ethnic joke? Was it against the President? Or was it "And the sea cucumber says to the mollusk, 'with fronds like these, who needs anemones?'"?
If the cadet told you about this, I'll go ahead and say I think he isn't giving you the whole story...
The answer you seek is indeed in a reg somewhere. Probably the one dealing with membership.
I'll also say that you may not get a whole lot of responses if CT sees this as a drive-by trolling or a story lacking in truth and detail.
Find out the whole story, from both sides, first. :)
Then try to take an unbiased look at it. Remove the "friend" part of the thought.
That limited amount, even if expanded on, sounds hokey and bogus. There just has to be more to it.
Perhaps the "joke" may not have been a joke at all to others.
I thought only active duty military personnel cant say jokes or disagree with the President on policy issues. Is that right or wrong?
Wearing a BDU cover instead of the designated one and the joke consisted of a mexican monster eating babies and then the cadet telling another cadet said monster is coming after them. Sounded a little odd to me, but I didn't push for details. I am merely researching for him and then letting him make his own decision.
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 02:29:43 AM
I thought only active duty military personnel cant say jokes or disagree with the President on policy issues. Is that right or wrong?
AD can disagree with the President, All Day Long
TM. Just not vocally in all situations- that's not my area of expertise and is slightly off topic, however.
I was merely providing an example of something inappropriate- CAP is not the venue to disparage the elected head of our government. The reason is nothing more than
professionalism.
Here you go:
CAPR 52-16: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/capr_5216_C8EDC47E7F572.pdf
Quote
2-12. Demotions & Terminations. In exceptional circumstances, the unit commander may demote a CAP cadet for cause, up to a maximum of three steps in the Cadet Program (i.e: three achievements, or two achievements and a milestone award).
a. Notification & Effective Date. The unit commander notifies the cadet of the demotion in writing, forwarding a courtesy copy to the commander at the next echelon. The demotion period begins the date the unit commander approves the demotion request if there is no appeal.
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
c. Appeals. The cadet may appeal the demotion decision by writing the commander of the next echelon, courtesy copied to the unit commander, within 30 days of receiving the demotion notice.
(1) The commander at the next echelon (normally at the group or wing level) will rule on the cadet's appeal request within 30 days of receiving the appeal request letter. This commander is the final authority on all cadet demotion actions.
(2) Cadets who appeal a demotion are ineligible to progress in the Cadet Program until the commander who has the appeals authority rules on the appeal. If the demotion is approved after an appeal, the cadet will be immediately demoted. If the demotion is overturned after an appeal, the cadet will be allowed to progress as if no demotion occurred.
d. Affect on Ribbons & Awards. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, just the achievements earned and any grade associated with these achievements. Demoted cadets retain their milestone awards, unless the awards are revoked as outlined in paragraph 2-13.
Quote from: maverik on October 01, 2010, 02:31:04 AM
Wearing a BDU cover instead of the designated one and the joke consisted of a mexican monster eating babies and then the cadet telling another cadet said monster is coming after them. Sounded a little odd to me, but I didn't push for details. I am merely researching for him and then letting him make his own decision.
The hat issue sounds like something tacked on to the more serious charge, which if you are telling it right sounds like an EO violation. He's lucky he didn't get worse than a demotion.
For the record, here is what 52-16 says:
2-12. Demotions & Terminations. In exceptional circumstances, the unit commander may demote a CAP cadet for cause, up to a maximum of three steps in the Cadet Program (i.e: three achievements, or two achievements and a milestone award).
a. Notification & Effective Date. The unit commander notifies the cadet of the demotion in writing, forwarding a courtesy copy to the commander at the next echelon. The demotion period begins the date the unit commander approves the demotion request if there is no appeal.
b. Re-Earning Achievements. The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award. If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, the unit commander may initiate termination (see CAPR 35-3).
c. Appeals. The cadet may appeal the demotion decision by writing the commander of the next echelon, courtesy copied to the unit commander, within 30 days of receiving the demotion notice.
(1) The commander at the next echelon (normally at the group or wing level) will rule on the cadet's appeal request within 30 days of receiving the appeal request letter. This commander is the final authority on all cadet demotion actions.
(2) Cadets who appeal a demotion are ineligible to progress in the Cadet Program until the commander who has the appeals authority rules on the appeal. If the demotion is approved after an appeal, the cadet will be immediately demoted. If the demotion is overturned after an appeal, the cadet will be allowed to progress as if no demotion occurred.
d. Affect on Ribbons & Awards. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, just the achievements earned and any grade associated with these achievements. Demoted cadets retain their milestone awards, unless the awards are revoked as outlined in paragraph 2-13.
Quote from: maverik on October 01, 2010, 02:31:04 AM
Wearing a BDU cover instead of the designated one and the joke consisted of a mexican monster eating babies and then the cadet telling another cadet said monster is coming after them. Sounded a little odd to me, but I didn't push for details. I am merely researching for him and then letting him make his own decision.
BDU cover- unless this was blatant insubordination, I'd say he's making up excuses or someone is waaaay off base here. EDIT: OR, as Eclipse pointed out, they tacked that onto the more serious charge.
Yeah, I could see a half dozen ways that joke could go wrong with a vengeful quickness.
So he says that he was a star cadet and all of a sudden one bad joke and he gets a demotion? Seems like this would be a series of events to warrant a demotion for a cadet.
Sounds to me like the cover may just be an incidental addition and the real reason may have been the "joke", and perhaps this is not the first time there's been warnings. But none the less things need to be done by the book.
Is there a regulation or amendment that specifies the cover for the unit, or is it simply a UOD declaration? (uniform of the day)
Has the cadet been warned, is there anything in their file?
Simply snittering about it isn't going to fight it, that needs to be done with regulations. But there is a flip side, is this demotion a single step back, is it for the 60 day period? Perhaps a discussion with the unit chaplain or equivalent. If it's a single step, 60 day period the time spent dealing with it is probably better spent overcoming it. If there is unfairness being played, document, document, and document. The more organized side usually wins.
Mexican baby eating monster, okay.. saying that to a Mexican kid, perhaps a brand new or very young cadet is probably not a good idea. But since you don't know who the target was, or how many times it was said, or what tone and circumstances were, this is not something easily decoded a state or few away with just one persons description.
Quote from: DakRadz on October 01, 2010, 02:35:17 AM
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 02:29:43 AM
I thought only active duty military personnel cant say jokes or disagree with the President on policy issues. Is that right or wrong?
AD can disagree with the President, All Day LongTM.
Article 88 of the UCMJ prohibits commissioned officers from speaking contemptuously of the President of the United States, among others. Violations would probably also be lumped in with "Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman" (Article 133).
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on October 01, 2010, 02:45:08 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on October 01, 2010, 02:35:17 AM
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 02:29:43 AM
I thought only active duty military personnel cant say jokes or disagree with the President on policy issues. Is that right or wrong?
AD can disagree with the President, All Day LongTM.
Article 88 of the UCMJ prohibits commissioned officers from speaking contemptuously of the President of the United States, among others. Violations would probably also be lumped in with "Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman" (Article 133).
Roger that, sir, but I was merely thinking political views and such. Disparaging the President is not professional nor acceptable in uniform or out for the military- but Capt. Bagodonuts, USAF can certainly wear civilian clothes to the Convention of his choice and disagree with allowing Congress to live on the moon (to use a topic that won't spark a "blown-up-in-my-face" debate), though obviously not allowed to say " The USAF supports the movement to stop Congress living on the moon." That's what I meant by disagree- not disagreeing with WHO the POTUS is, as that is different altogether.
Quote from: a2capt on October 01, 2010, 02:44:35 AM
Mexican baby eating monster, okay.. saying that to a Mexican kid, perhaps a brand new or very young cadet is probably not a good idea. But since you don't know who the target was, or how many times it was said, or what tone and circumstances were, this is not something easily decoded a state or few away with just one persons description.
All of the above. Especially the ways the joke could have been taken very badly.
It's hard to armchair lawyer when I don't have the Internet evidence..
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on October 01, 2010, 02:45:08 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on October 01, 2010, 02:35:17 AM
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 02:29:43 AM
I thought only active duty military personnel cant say jokes or disagree with the President on policy issues. Is that right or wrong?
AD can disagree with the President, All Day LongTM.
Article 88 of the UCMJ prohibits commissioned officers from speaking contemptuously of the President of the United States, among others. Violations would probably also be lumped in with "Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman" (Article 133).
Would it be legal to say that you disagreed with a policy of the President and SecDef? Like the cancelling of the F-22A Raptor fighter at only 187 planes. If you were an AF officer and at a social event where others could hear you? Or in just a one on one conversation with someone? Giving a detailed analysis why you think its wrong?
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 03:20:23 AM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on October 01, 2010, 02:45:08 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on October 01, 2010, 02:35:17 AM
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 02:29:43 AM
I thought only active duty military personnel cant say jokes or disagree with the President on policy issues. Is that right or wrong?
AD can disagree with the President, All Day LongTM.
Article 88 of the UCMJ prohibits commissioned officers from speaking contemptuously of the President of the United States, among others. Violations would probably also be lumped in with "Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman" (Article 133).
Would it be legal to say that you disagreed with a policy of the President and SecDef? Like the cancelling of the F-22A Raptor fighter at only 187 planes. If you were an AF officer and at a social event where others could hear you? Or in just a one on one conversation with someone? Giving a detailed analysis why you think its wrong?
Darn it, Jim, I am an aviator not a lawyer.
I don't think a detailed professional discussion would be contemptuous unless the conversation contained words such as, "The President is a big dummy for.."; however, one must be aware of his surroundings and discretion is always a virtue.
I have always tried to steer clear of political discussions.
Article 88 is basically never ever used. They usually just slap you with an article 92 (screw you). Or they just hand them an LOR which basically ends an officers career anyway.....
Disagree with the decision all day long. Don't start the sentence with "that Kenyan Muslim Dirtbag in Office is bad for the Air Force".
Quote from: NCRblues on October 01, 2010, 03:33:32 AM
Article 88 is basically never ever used. They usually just slap you with an article 92 (screw you). Or they just hand them an LOR which basically ends an officers career anyway.....
You are confusing the crime with the punishment. In order to issue someone a reprimand, whether written or oral; offer non-judicial punishment in lieu of court martial (Article 15): or proceed through an Article 32 hearing to a court martial, you must have a violation of some controlling authority. In this case, that violation would be of Article 88 of the UCMJ.
Although I can't recall a case where an officer was imprisoned for violating Article 88, that does not mean the article is not enforced. As you stated, for officers, a career-ending solution is normally sufficient.
v/r
^ or an article 92 for not following article 88 (which happened in my squadron... the JAG said charge him with a 92 and as the desk Sgt that night guess what i got to do? >:D) ... we are reading the same book, just not on the same page i think ;D
Cadet demotions take 2 forms: Either one act of incredible stupidity or a constant, near predictable path of normal stupidity that all other forms of correction have failed to get the point across. If your friend got a demotion over the wrong hat and a bad joke I'd say he probably has a history of constantly doing stupid things.
Tell your buddy to pull his head out of his rear end or go find somewhere else to spend his time. CAP is a program for people who WANT to be here, everyone else in the program just keeps us from moving forward.
Quote from: maverik on October 01, 2010, 02:20:17 AM
Hello all,
A good friend of mind in another wing told me he had been demoted fro wearing a different cover than the squadron standard one and also making a joke to a subordinate (not a personal attack) now I realize I have a limited story, but I was wondering what this cadet could do to try and repeal this?
Quote from: BradM on October 01, 2010, 03:20:23 AM
Would it be legal to say that you disagreed with a policy of the President and SecDef? Like the cancelling of the F-22A Raptor fighter at only 187 planes. If you were an AF officer and at a social event where others could hear you? Or in just a one on one conversation with someone? Giving a detailed analysis why you think its wrong?
You can always ask Gen. Stanley McChrystal...... Most if not all of what he said was in humorous chatter with his Officers, and came from a guy who spent how many years at War?? It was taken out of context, written down by an anti-military "journalist" and the President took offense.
With all due respect to Mr. Yuma, the purpose of demotions are as a progressive discipline tool. That doesn't mean that the cadet needs to find another organization's door to darken.
WRT to the OP's situation: You're probably not getting the whole story from your buddy. Nobody wants to admit they're fallible or have failed to do something, so usually you hear "yeah, my boss had it out for me" or "my squad leader is a jerk.." not "They told me how to fix myself and I refused to do it.."
Your friend has remedies available via CAPR 52-16. In theory, if the cadet's commander is out of line (ie. a spurious demotion action) then a well-written appeal letter to the appropriate echelon could result in the reversal of the demotion action. If, however, the cadet's demotion is warranted, it will be upheld on appeal.
I have demoted cadets in my time as a commander (twice, actually). Each time was as part of a progressive discipline situation, and neither cadet appealed their demotion. One left CAP during the process and it was probably a good thing.
I have also helped a cadet write an appeal letter to a demotion that was so badly misplaced and poorly executed that it actually resulted in a region level investigation, the firing of a Wing DCP, and contributed to a Wing Commander's early replacement. (yeah)
That being said, I think most demotions, executed correctly under the provisions of 52-16, are probably justified. And cadets are not likely to admit to their shortcomings to their peers. So my outside read is that the OP's buddy is not being completely square as to the reasons for the demotion (a joke & the wrong hat? Please!) and any additional circumstances that may have led up to the demotion.
If, however, the unit commander "demoted" the cadet on a whim, well, again, there may be sufficient grounds to support a successful appeal, since it probably wasn't executed per the applicable regulations.
The telling factor is this: The cadet says "Oh, I won't appeal this, wing won't buy it anyway.." Thats tantamount to saying "The demotion was legit and I have no chance to appeal it."
Quote from: Patterson on October 05, 2010, 01:21:34 PM
You can always ask Gen. Stanley McChrystal...... Most if not all of what he said was in humorous chatter with his Officers, and came from a guy who spent how many years at War?? It was taken out of context, written down by an anti-military "journalist" and the President took offense.
This is further proof, if further proof were actually required, that the military is not a 9-5 job. Soldiers are always "on duty."
Without presuming to know what all went on in GEN McChyrstal's headquarters, from on outsider's perspective, there were certainly issues with command climate, if any of the journalist's attributions were true and I never saw anything disputing the basic veracity of the article. What was most surprising to me was that CENTCOM and GEN McChrystal allowed the
Rolling Stone reporter such unfettered access.
What is also interesting is that the President waived the time in grade requirements, which allowed GEN McChyrstal to retire as a GEN (O-10).
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on October 05, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
Quote from: Patterson on October 05, 2010, 01:21:34 PM
You can always ask Gen. Stanley McChrystal...... Most if not all of what he said was in humorous chatter with his Officers, and came from a guy who spent how many years at War?? It was taken out of context, written down by an anti-military "journalist" and the President took offense.
What is also interesting is that the President waived the time in grade requirements, which allowed GEN McChyrstal to retire as a GEN (O-10).
No, what is interesting is that he wasn't retired at his permenant grade of Major General.
Quote from: NIN on October 05, 2010, 01:52:02 PM
With all due respect to Mr. Yuma, the purpose of demotions are as a progressive discipline tool. That doesn't mean that the cadet needs to find another organization's door to darken.
I agree, the assertion I'm making is if a cadet is to the point of losing stripes that cadet needs to start making some choices: Get with the program and back into good graces or end up out of the program one way or another. Hearing this from one of his peers will go farther than hearing it from an adult.
Most of the problem cadets I've seen were kids who didn't want to be in the program who continued to attend for one reason or another. We can do a whole lot more with kids who want to be at the meetings and who want to learn than you can riding herd on one or two who don't.