Well I was thinking.....If I Were God...and wanted to take on the CAP decorations....what would it look like?
1. CAP Medal of Valor (Replaces the SMoV)
2. CAP Cross (replaces the BMoV)
2. CAP Distinguished Service Medal (awarded by the BoG for service to CAP)
3. CAP (for work at the National Level)
4. CAP Superior Service Medal (For work at regional level)
5. CAP Legion Of Merit (for long and distinguished service to CAP)
6. CAP Meritorious Service Medal (for work at wing level)
7. CAP Life Saving Medal
8. CAP Find Medal
9. Cap Aerial Achievement Award (combines the ES/CD/HLS/DR/OR medals for air crew)
10. CAP Ground Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for ground teams)
11. CAP Mission Base Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for mission base personnel)
12. CAP Commendation Medal (for work at Group Level)
13. CAP Achievement Medal (for work at unit level).
14. BoG Unit Citation (awarded by Bog for doing some really top notch work)
15. CAP Meritorious Unit Award
16. CAP Outstanding Unit Award
17. CAP Quality Unit Award (awarded yearly if you meet basic unit quality factors)
17. CAP Aerospace Education Award (Yeager)
18. Wilson Medal
19. CAP Professional Development Award (replaces leadership, Garber, Loening)
20. Spaatz Medal
21. Cadet Professional Development Ribbon
22. CAP Campaign Medals (these can be special awards created for those who participated in special operations (Columbia search, Katrina, Fosset Search, etc). They can be either the same ribbon or make special ones for each operations...worn in the order received).
23. Longevity Ribbon (replaces red service Medal)
24. Recruiting Ribbon (combines both the cadet and senior recruiter ribbon)
25. IACE
26. NCSA Ribbon (combines ALL NCSAs into a single ribbon).
27. Cadet Marksman Ribbon
28. Encampment Ribbon
29. Community Service Ribbon
30. CAP Basic Training Ribbon (Replaces Curry for cadets and Membership for Seniors (prior cadets would wear a star when they complete level I).
Okay....
First off.....this does not solve any nonexistent problem...that is don't say "why do we need to change anything".
This does a a couple of things for us.
1. It ties our level of awards with the USAF award system....so they will match up. (this is not to say they are same thing...so don't go there! The CAP cross is not equivalent to the AF Cross!).
2. It ties the awards with a specific level of expected achievement......i.e. the top level of service award medals would be for those doing work at the top level! Just like the USAF you still have discretion of awarding the appropriate award no matter what echelon the individual works at.
3. It eliminate a lot of medals/ribbons that we already get things for (cadets get both a ribbon and a rank....so give them a ribbon with stars on it to replace all those other ribbons....same story for the SMs).
4. It cleans up some of the weirdness of some of the ribbons..(a find is a find is a find....does not/should not matter if you got a find on foot as a GTM, in the air as a MS or working the mission base as MRO.
5. It also cleans up the DR/CD/ES/HLS weirdness. If you fly 100 mission hours....I want to give you something to put on your uniform....I don't care if it was 100 ES mission or 100 CD mission...it was 100 mission. (don't yell at me about the numbers...I just threw something out there).
6. It allows us to reward all out operational people for their contribution...not just air crew and GT.
Just a thought.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 02, 2010, 08:03:26 PM
Well I was thinking.....If I Were God...and wanted to take on the CAP decorations....what would it look like?
1. CAP Medal of Valor (Replaces the SMoV)
2. CAP Cross (replaces the BMoV)
2. CAP Distinguished Service Medal (awarded by the BoG for service to CAP)
3. CAP (for work at the National Level)
4. CAP Superior Service Medal (For work at regional level)
5. CAP Legion Of Merit (for long and distinguished service to CAP)
6. CAP Meritorious Service Medal (for work at wing level)
7. CAP Life Saving Medal
8. CAP Find Medal
9. Cap Aerial Achievement Award (combines the ES/CD/HLS/DR/OR medals for air crew)
10. CAP Ground Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for ground teams)
11. CAP Mission Base Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for mission base personnel)
12. CAP Commendation Medal (for work at Group Level)
13. CAP Achievement Medal (for work at unit level).
14. BoG Unit Citation (awarded by Bog for doing some really top notch work)
15. CAP Meritorious Unit Award
16. CAP Outstanding Unit Award
17. CAP Quality Unit Award (awarded yearly if you meet basic unit quality factors)
17. CAP Aerospace Education Award (Yeager)
18. Wilson Medal
19. CAP Professional Development Award (replaces leadership, Garber, Loening)
20. Spaatz Medal
21. Cadet Professional Development Ribbon
22. CAP Campaign Medals (these can be special awards created for those who participated in special operations (Columbia search, Katrina, Fosset Search, etc). They can be either the same ribbon or make special ones for each operations...worn in the order received).
23. Longevity Ribbon (replaces red service Medal)
24. Recruiting Ribbon (combines both the cadet and senior recruiter ribbon)
25. IACE
26. NCSA Ribbon (combines ALL NCSAs into a single ribbon).
27. Cadet Marksman Ribbon
28. Encampment Ribbon
29. Community Service Ribbon
30. CAP Basic Training Ribbon (Replaces Curry for cadets and Membership for Seniors (prior cadets would wear a star when they complete level I).
Okay....
First off.....this does not solve any nonexistent problem...that is don't say "why do we need to change anything".
This does a a couple of things for us.
1. It ties our level of awards with the USAF award system....so they will match up. (this is not to say they are same thing...so don't go there! The CAP cross is not equivalent to the AF Cross!).
2. It ties the awards with a specific level of expected achievement......i.e. the top level of service award medals would be for those doing work at the top level! Just like the USAF you still have discretion of awarding the appropriate award no matter what echelon the individual works at.
3. It eliminate a lot of medals/ribbons that we already get things for (cadets get both a ribbon and a rank....so give them a ribbon with stars on it to replace all those other ribbons....same story for the SMs).
4. It cleans up some of the weirdness of some of the ribbons..(a find is a find is a find....does not/should not matter if you got a find on foot as a GTM, in the air as a MS or working the mission base as MRO.
5. It also cleans up the DR/CD/ES/HLS weirdness. If you fly 100 mission hours....I want to give you something to put on your uniform....I don't care if it was 100 ES mission or 100 CD mission...it was 100 mission. (don't yell at me about the numbers...I just threw something out there).
6. It allows us to reward all out operational people for their contribution...not just air crew and GT.
Just a thought.
I made a picture of that one time, it sparked a firestorm, refer to page four of http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10231.60 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10231.60)
Quote from: lordmonar on September 02, 2010, 08:03:26 PM
Well I was thinking.....If I Were God...and wanted to take on the CAP decorations....what would it look like?
1. CAP Medal of Valor (Replaces the SMoV)
2. CAP Cross (replaces the BMoV)
2. CAP Distinguished Service Medal (awarded by the BoG for service to CAP)
3. CAP Exceptional Service Medal(for work at the National Level)
...
17. CAP Quality Unit Award (awarded yearly if you meet basic unit quality factors)
17. CAP Aerospace Education Award (Yeager)
...
27. Cadet Marksman Ribbon
28. Encampment Ribbon
29. Community Service Ribbon
30. CAP Basic Training Ribbon (Replaces Curry for cadets and Membership for Seniors (prior cadets would wear a star when they complete level I).
Okay....
First off.....this does not solve any nonexistent problem...that is don't say "why do we need to change anything".
This does a a couple of things for us.
1. It ties our level of awards with the USAF award system....so they will match up. (this is not to say they are same thing...so don't go there! The CAP cross is not equivalent to the AF Cross!).
2. It ties the awards with a specific level of expected achievement......i.e. the top level of service award medals would be for those doing work at the top level! Just like the USAF you still have discretion of awarding the appropriate award no matter what echelon the individual works at.
3. It eliminate a lot of medals/ribbons that we already get things for (cadets get both a ribbon and a rank....so give them a ribbon with stars on it to replace all those other ribbons....same story for the SMs).
4. It cleans up some of the weirdness of some of the ribbons..(a find is a find is a find....does not/should not matter if you got a find on foot as a GTM, in the air as a MS or working the mission base as MRO.
5. It also cleans up the DR/CD/ES/HLS weirdness. If you fly 100 mission hours....I want to give you something to put on your uniform....I don't care if it was 100 ES mission or 100 CD mission...it was 100 mission. (don't yell at me about the numbers...I just threw something out there).
6. It allows us to reward all out operational people for their contribution...not just air crew and GT.
Just a thought.
I noted a couple of inconsistancies.
Why not just have a Marksmanship ribbon authorized for all members, not just cadets?
Would you reassign current ribbons or go with a whole new crop?
Finally,
QuoteJust a thought.
Bad habit. You know better. >:D
I would go with a markmanship ribbon for everyone.....just did not know if any SM's care about it.
As for grandfathering......that would be problematical....but I could think up a few ways of transitining from the old ribbons to the new.
I may play around with it. I have a long weekend coming up...
I like what you've got, but on the Cadet ribbons, I'd like to leave the milestone awards in. Just the milestone awards (as well as the Cadet / Senior Basic Training ribbon), no achievement ribbons. I think positive reinforcement through bling is alright, to an extent, and one ribbon at each milestone is perfect. If this system were put in place, it would work as our current system does. You only get the milestone / training ribbon(s), and when you turn SM, all but the highest award (plus training ribbon) come off.
I've said it before, but I think it waters down the value of awards / rank (take your pick) when you award one ribbon per rank. One ribbon per milestone is, IMO, the "perfect balance".
Rather than attach it again: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1695.msg26806#msg26806
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on September 03, 2010, 12:12:44 AM
I like what you've got, but on the Cadet ribbons, I'd like to leave the milestone awards in. Just the milestone awards (as well as the Cadet / Senior Basic Training ribbon), no achievement ribbons. I think positive reinforcement through bling is alright, to an extent, and one ribbon at each milestone is perfect. If this system were put in place, it would work as our current system does. You only get the milestone / training ribbon(s), and when you turn SM, all but the highest award (plus training ribbon) come off.
I've said it before, but I think it waters down the value of awards / rank (take your pick) when you award one ribbon per rank. One ribbon per milestone is, IMO, the "perfect balance".
I see what you are thinking...and agree with it to a point.
I was thinking with just a single Cadet Program ribbon (and the Spaatz) you would not have to take anything off once you became a SM. You get a pip for each achievement/milestone....so an Earheart would have his basic ribbon, his CPD ribbon with a bunch of silver pips...nothing to take off. If a member only got Wright Brothers he would have the ribbon with one pip.
That balances out both sides between too much bling and making a ribbon not count for anything once you are an SM. Earn a ribbon...wear it for life....and you don't look like a Banana Republic Dictator.
I was going to say about how the ribbons matter to new cadets (I know they did to me, though the stripes mattered more), but I actually like the idea of clasps to signify advancement.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 03, 2010, 01:55:26 AM
I was going to say about how the ribbons matter to new cadets (I know they did to me, though the striped mattered more), but I actually like the idea of clasps to signify advancement.
On top of that, the ribbons represent a historical flight figure. It's a little piece of history being kept alive. That's a nice tradition- and cadets are going to end up looking like Cuban generals anyway, so...
Also, the ribbons do slow down majorly once you become a cadet officer- I think this may be NHQ saying "New cadets get lots of ribbons because that really is a driving factor for many, at first. Now, you're a bona-fide leader and C/officer- less ribbons, get over it."
Quote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 01:30:18 AM
I see what you are thinking...and agree with it to a point.
I was thinking with just a single Cadet Program ribbon (and the Spaatz) you would not have to take anything off once you became a SM. You get a pip for each achievement/milestone....so an Earheart would have his basic ribbon, his CPD ribbon with a bunch of silver pips...nothing to take off. If a member only got Wright Brothers he would have the ribbon with one pip.
That balances out both sides between too much bling and making a ribbon not count for anything once you are an SM. Earn a ribbon...wear it for life....and you don't look like a Banana Republic Dictator.
I agree with the concept, and like that it simplifies the transition from cadet to SM, but my reasoning for keeping the milestones as separate awards versus your outlined method is the prestige (if that's the right word to use) of each individual milestone award / phase completion. As mentioned previously, I feel that my way, IMO, is the perfect "balance" between "too much" and "too little". I just see the "one ribbon w/ multiple attachments" as "too little". There's a difference (most likely a big one, to the bling-oriented cadets) between adding a star / triangle / etc. to a ribbon, multiple times, versus actually receiving a separate award, but as always, YMMV.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 03, 2010, 02:00:17 AM
On top of that, the ribbons represent a historical flight figure. It's a little piece of history being kept alive. That's a nice tradition- and cadets are going to end up looking like Cuban generals anyway, so...
Just because you take away the ribbon doesn't mean you take away the historical figure. Under what I outlined before, the achievements would still be structured and completed as they are today, each still named and focused on a specific historical figure. You just wouldn't have the ribbon associated with it. As for looking like a [third-world country] dictator, the achievement ribbons (obviously) make up the bulk of a Cadet's ribbons... remove those from the equation, and you remove (for the most part) the similarity to a third-world dictator.
Alright, Major and C/Capt have convinced me.
I was just thinking that giving a cadet one ribbon, period, until encampment or community service... That's a little bare. Cadets DO largely care about bling at first- generally grow out of that.
I would say keep Wright, Mitchell, Earhart, and Eaker as well.
So new cadets could, within 3 months, have- CAP Basic Training (remember this is a
Curry OR Level 1 ribbon equivalent), CPD Ribbon, Community Service/Recruiting/Marksmanship (one or more). That's a good collection of ribbons, and they would be more prestigious.
The current system... I don't feel like the ribbons/awards mean as much, because I got a new one with every promotion- it was overkill. Heck, I think CAP cured me of my ribbon-lust out of a sheer overwhelming barrage.
Now though, instead of trying to promote just to the next rank, I've noticed I'm setting my sites on the Earhart, so I can plan my attack upon the Eaker when I get there, and then the Spaatz. Strategic, tactical, and prestigious! That's the ribbon-y way!
After a certain NCSA and a certain Wing Activity I was infected with Ribbonitis. I wanted to look like the hardkewl kids with 30 ribbons, at the time only having some 12.
Unfortunately, having asked to be put in for the AFSA Ribbon and being told *by my new DCC, so we didn't know each other that well yet* to write my accomplishments that qualify for it so he can do the proper paperwork backfired. For one, I received the AFA Ribbon - an ugly bluish ribbon with red AFA letters on it. Second, I hated the fact that I actually got the grenades to ask for an award. It just left a bad taste in my mouth all around. After getting that ribbon, March 2006, I believe, the only new ribbons that I added were Mitchell, Earhart and Find - a total of 15 ribbons which was respectable, and not overkill.
To this day, I still laugh at the cadets who plan their careers around getting the AFSA and the VFW NCO, turn officer and go for the AFA and VFW Officer ribbons. :)
I cant believe I am being sucked in.....resist resist ahhhhhhhhhh
OK. here I go.
CAP Achievement Medal awarded with a silver propeller device. Making it an Aerial Achievement Medal. One medal, two uses. I dont know what the criteria would be. It could be vague or very specific regarding aerial achievement. I know we have Find ribbons with the prop device but in the rare case someone would do something extraordinary during a flight (not dangerous or unsafe) but mastery of the aircraft, dealing with an significant inflight emergency, you get the idea.
We can certainly add a CAP Air Medal for singular achievements in airmanship....I.e. pulling off a deadstick landing, some god awful amount of CAP Flying Hours, Making a find through some sort of difficult situation.
We can also expand the criteria I had for the CAP air/ground/Mission base achievement medals....I was just looking at the "20 real missions" award....but it could be expanded to be awarded for distinctive achievement during a real mission.
Welcome to the dark side of "just talking about bling"... >:D
You know what.... I feel...... good >:D
Initial playing around:
Bold titles indicate new award needs ribbon selected. I'll be updating it when I get access to my ribbon charts...
Criteria are essentiall what lordmonar put forth.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: arajca on September 03, 2010, 04:01:36 PM
Initial playing around:
Bold titles indicate new award needs ribbon selected. I'll be updating it when I get access to my ribbon charts...
Criteria are essentiall what lordmonar put forth.
I like it. A few things:
No Eaker on there at all.
No CAC ribbon- this is the only permanent indicator of CAC service, so I would want to keep this before the shoulder cord.
lordmonar proposed combining the two recruiting ribbons into one, not the Cadet and SM separation. Looked closer at the labeling of the chart.
Is the Professional Development ribbon you listed the Cadet version?
OUTSTANDING, SIR! The Honorable Military Service Ribbon is a very good touch. Really rounds out the entire chart :)
These are a combination of suggestions for both the ribbon chart and lordmonar's proposal.
The PD ribbon is for Seniors. Cadets have the Milestones.
The Eaker is a consolation prize for those who couldn't quite make it to Spaatz. (Full discloser - I fall into that category. By the time I had time to work on the Spaatz, it was a week before my 21st birthday).
Unfortunately, the no one on the NB supported a miltary service award, but I'll keep trying. I would have liked to hear the discussion on it, if there was any.
Quote from: arajca on September 03, 2010, 10:05:08 PM
The PD ribbon is for Seniors. Cadets have the Milestones.
The Eaker is a consolation prize for those who couldn't quite make it to Spaatz. (Full discloser - I fall into that category. By the time I had time to work on the Spaatz, it was a week before my 21st birthday).
Unfortunately, the no one on the NB supported a miltary service award, but I'll keep trying. I would have liked to hear the discussion on it, if there was any.
I was wondering about the PD ribbon, as lordmonar proposed one for cadets to replace the ribbon-for-every-enlisted-rank. I'm tracking now.
So you propose eliminating the Eaker? Just wondering.
I did see that no one supported the HMSA, but I say kudos to you for including it in the chart in optimism and confidence :D
I'm not a big fan of the CAC in the first place...but I could live with it if I had to.
I would support the military service ribbon if we eliminated the option to wear military ribbons.
I also don't like the AFA,AFSA, VFW ribbons....if we really want to have a cadet enlisted/nco/officer of the year program then let's get our own.
I would also eliminate the option to wear ROTC/JROTC ribbons.
I would follow the USAF's program and only have a ribbon for the "12 outstand cadets of the year".
I was a base level NCO of the year winner while on AD.....all I got was a plaque....I got more for being the Squadron NCO of the quarter!
Quote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
I'm not a big fan of the CAC in the first place...but I could live with it if I had to.
CAC is definitely an iffy group at best (says a current serving member)- there are cadets who make use of it wisely and provide a great service to the area they are advising- I'd say these are few and far between, and not getting a ribbon would probably not phase these cadets...
Then again, counter-arguments could be easily made.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
I would support the military service ribbon if we eliminated the option to wear military ribbons.
I know you are retired military sir, so I am not attempting to argue or act as if I have ANY military experience. That said, I heard a suggestion which sounded fair- military ribbons on USAF-style uniforms, and the HMSA on CAP distinctive.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
I also don't like the AFA,AFSA, VFW ribbons....if we really want to have a cadet enlisted/nco/officer of the year program then let's get our own.
I agree- however, I think the benefit of this is (I believe) the costs associated with this award are borne by the presenting organization. This is something *extra* in JROTC, on top of established Top Cadet awards- I think we need our own as well. Commanders can choose to simply not utilize these awards already, so if CAP had Top Cadet awards, that option could be exercised as necessary.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
I would also eliminate the option to wear ROTC/JROTC ribbons.
*Sniff* Awwww.
Eh, I don't particularly wear them for ribbonage- mostly I use them as filler so I don't have to buy new ribbon bars (so that I only increase in rows of three), or switch them out randomly to confuse folks :D (It says any three may be worn, otherwise only program precedence must be followed).
Quote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
I would follow the USAF's program and only have a ribbon for the "12 outstand cadets of the year".
I was a base level NCO of the year winner while on AD.....all I got was a plaque....I got more for being the Squadron NCO of the quarter!
I have no knowledge/experience of/with this, so no comment.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 03, 2010, 11:14:45 PMQuote from: lordmonar on September 03, 2010, 10:40:58 PM
I would support the military service ribbon if we eliminated the option to wear military ribbons.
I know you are retired military sir, so I am not attempting to argue or act as if I have ANY military experience. That said, I heard a suggestion which sounded fair- military ribbons on USAF-style uniforms, and the HMSA on CAP distinctive.
Ahh...but you touched one of my other buttons.....same rules no matter which uniform you wear. (I think we all need to be in one uniform...but that is for another thread. ;D)
I fleshed out the graphics and added a few more notes. The I selected the particular ribbons with two criteria - 1. Not a military ribbon and 2. I liked it. As long a 1. is met, I'm not stuck on any, except HMSA.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Here's a crazy idea...see if you can stay with me on this...
How about...
...we wear CAP ribbons for CAP-related service on our CAP uniforms, and leave the decorations from other services for them to wear on their respective (and respected uniforms).
I know crazy.
Frames are a PITA. Seriously. Asking cadets to get them right, even given the specific award for being high-speed, is just asking for trouble.
YMMV.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 03:15:52 AM
Here's a crazy idea...see if you can stay with me on this...
How about...
...we wear CAP ribbons for CAP-related service on our CAP uniforms, and leave the decorations from other services for them to wear on their r
espective (and respected uniforms).
I know crazy.
No, not crazy. How about no ribbons at all.
As I've progressed through the CAP Program, the ribbons have meant less and less to the point where I only wear my military stuff and only one CAP badge...senior observer wings.
I know it's hard for a non-military member to understand, but a military service ribbon is just another stupid CAP ribbon that palls in comparison to the various awards, decorations, ribbons and service medals that a military member brings in terms of personal honor and credibility to this organization. I have a Wilson Award and four Commander's Commendations and don't wear the ribbons because my military stuff means so much more. I've also found that my military stuff does more sometimes to motivate a cadet than all the CAP stuff.
Here's another point to consider, I wonder sometimes if the quest to create all these ribbons isn't another ploy on the part of NHQ to get the membership to buy them so NHQ gets their cut....call it my personal revolt to certain policies. Otherwise, create more bling and then limit the source where it can be purchased from. Quite a vicious circle, don't you think.
It's happened before, the CAP moved from military-looking ribbons back in the early 1960s because the Army Heraldry folks didn't have time to work on them. As result we ended up with what were best described as comic-looking ribbons for both cadets and senior members. Those laminated ribbons were a trip. If they were exposed to the sun for long periods, they'd actually "melt" or unfold and drop off the ribbon bars...another expense for CAP members.
The bigger joke is that they don't go away. The latest CAP Volunteer Magazine had a photo of a female officer wearing an original find ribbon that's supposed to be long obsolete.
In reference to the original entry, however, I would eliminate things like a Superior Service Medal, limit it to one kind of Achievement Medal, and narrow down the field of activity ribbons to one or two, possibly with special devices.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 03:15:52 AM
Here's a crazy idea...see if you can stay with me on this...
How about...
...we wear CAP ribbons for CAP-related service on our CAP uniforms, and leave the decorations from other services for them to wear on their respective (and respected uniforms).
I know crazy.
I would have to say I'm with you on that one. What you have done somewhere else has very little to do with CAP. I have all my AF ribbons in a very nice shadow box. I guess when and if the CSU goes away I will build another shadow box for all my CAP ribbons.
As for the plastic encased ribbons, I wore those for the 6 years I was a cadet and did not have any of the problems with them melting off the ribbon rack despite living in the Desert Southwest.
QuoteI know it's hard for a non-military member to understand, but a military service ribbon is just another stupid CAP ribbon that palls in comparison to the various awards, decorations, ribbons and service medals that a military member brings in terms of personal honor and credibility to this organization.
I guess it's hard for you to understand that CAP ribbons are important to...CAP members. Many of whom don't know what the military fruit salad you are wearing means, and most likely don't care. When I see a CAP member with a bunch of military awards and no CAP awards, my impression is they have no respect for CAP, despite being a member. Those who wear both show they have an understanding of CAP
AND, more importantly, they respect what CAP offers.
If the AF or NB came down tomorrow and banned military awards on ALL CAP uniforms, that'd be fine.
I have to go with Arajca on this.
Everyone is allowed to value and respect whatever they want, but don't back-handedly devalue my service by insinuating yours is somehow "better". Comparing a non-combatant service to a combatant one in that way simply means you don't understand either one.
Quote from: arajca on September 04, 2010, 04:39:45 PMI guess it's hard for you to understand that CAP ribbons are important to...CAP members. Many of whom don't know what the military fruit salad you are wearing means, and most likely don't care. When I see a CAP member with a bunch of military awards and no CAP awards, my impression is they have no respect for CAP, despite being a member. Those who wear both show they have an understanding of CAP AND, more importantly, they respect what CAP offers.
If the AF or NB came down tomorrow and banned military awards on ALL CAP uniforms, that'd be fine.
And on the other hand, many CAP members don't understand that military decorations are important to everyone in the military. It means something to us.
There are CAP members that show absolute jealousy towards military ribbons and try to tell those members that they shouldn't wear them. That's disrespect to military service. If you're going to throw the respect card out, keep in mind that it goes both ways.
No one should be disrespecting anyone, if you want to wear them, fine, but how does it make sense for someone with 15 years in CAP
and 4 in the military to be displaying only military ribbons? What does that say about their opinion of CAP?
The fact that military decorations and badges are allowed at all is an anomaly of our status as a military auxiliary - that same status which is often cited as "wannabeeism" towards members who seek that affiliation as a value of their membership.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 05:33:31 PMNo one should be disrespecting anyone, if you want to wear them, fine, but how does it make sense for someone with 15 years in CAP and 4 in the military to be displaying only military ribbons?
No, it doesn't make sense.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 05:33:31 PMWhat does that say about their opinion of CAP?
Doesn't say anything about their opinion of CAP. The impression I might get is that they haven't bothered to get any CAP ribbons lately, or they're taking the easy route by throwing their military rack on their CAP uniform. I did the same thing when I rejoined (after a five year break) until I got more CAP ribbons to add.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 05:33:31 PMThe fact that military decorations and badges are allowed at all is an anomaly of our status as a military auxiliary - that same status which is often cited as "wannabeeism" towards members who seek that affiliation as a value of their membership.
Most branches allow the wear of other branch awards and decs, allowing military awards on a CAP uniform is not without a precedent. The awards are allowed on our mother organization's uniform, it is a natural progression to allow it on the auxiliary uniform. No real anomoly there.
Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.
People need to quit placing artificial values on military awards, decs, and badges. They show what a person has done or currently does, nothing more. Someone having more ribbons than someone else has simply done more.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 05:54:21 PM
Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.
There is an underlying thread here and elsewhere that if one of the reasons you joined CAP was for the uniform and military affiliation than you are a wannabe of the highest order. This was/is prevalent in the discussions about the CSU, for example.
Many members are bent they can't wear military ribbons on the corporate variants but then get uppity about CAP not being a military branch.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 06:28:51 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 05:54:21 PM
Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.
There is an underlying thread here and elsewhere that if one of the reasons you joined CAP was for the uniform and military affiliation than you are a wannabe of the highest order. This was/is prevalent in the discussions about the CSU, for example.
I see what you're saying. I've never believed that joining CAP was wannabeism, although I do see wannabeism from some CAP members.
The problem is the false logic that some people use. Theory: there are "wannabes" in CAP, so all CAP members are wannabe's. It doesn't work any more than the concept that all welfare recipients are lazy drug users.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 06:28:51 PMMany members are bent they can't wear military ribbons on the corporate variants but then get uppity about CAP not being a military branch.
I've seen the issue of military ribbons not being allowed. Unfortunately, those members don't seem to get the fact that it isn't up to CAP, it's up to the branches. If the branch says no, then it's no. I don't agree with it, but that's irrelevant. Whether or not CAP is a military branch doesn't matter.
I was digusted by comments made about the CAP awards and ribbons are, somehow, meaningless; but was made whole again by some of the replies.
The thing comes out like this... CAP Awards have as much value as any award given anywhere for anything. They are the awards and decorations of the organization. The "pit fall" being made in this thread is that same old one where people try to make the specious comparison between CAP and the US Military (or any given organization out there from the Salvation Army to Masons to the Knights of Columbus)
The additional "widget" in this thread is the awards of the US Military. I would say that lay citizens are more likely to place a degree of importance on Military Awards simply because of the nature of them. Many lay civilians simply look at the awards as earned for heroic service, I know a few that, when looking at some CAP ribbons I was wearing closely we amazed to find out that the "brick" was in fact made up of individual ribbons and that some, in turn, reflected a some medal.
One could also apply some of the comments on the worth and worthiness of CAP ribbons to those of the military. Not all Military ribbons are awarded for heroic action. Some are simply for because you were "there for so long," others might be for simply "not getting in trouble" for a give time, and some represent that you were in active service during a time of conflict, yet, were the base cook at some States-side installation (a worthy place with its own honor, but not worthy of a Bronze Star in itself.)
I am sure some might take offense at what I presented in the previous paragraph, but no more so than any similar paragraph bashing CAP awards.
Fact is, CAP awards have their worth as defined by the CAP organization. Some have been awarded for truely outstanding work, some, even, where CAP people have give their life in the service of CAP. A Red Service Ribbon with a 40 on it is nothing to sneeze at either, especially if that person was active for all that time with out pay.
Keep it real people...
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:04:28 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 06:28:51 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 05:54:21 PM
Not really comprehending the "wannabeism" angle. People that want CAP ribbons to look like Air Force ones could be "wannabeism", that I can follow. If that's not what you mean, then clarify.
There is an underlying thread here and elsewhere that if one of the reasons you joined CAP was for the uniform and military affiliation than you are a wannabe of the highest order. This was/is prevalent in the discussions about the CSU, for example.
I see what you're saying. I've never believed that joining CAP was wannabeism, although I do see wannabeism from some CAP members.
The problem is the false logic that some people use. Theory: there are "wannabes" in CAP, so all CAP members are wannabe's. It doesn't work any more than the concept that all welfare recipients are lazy drug users.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2010, 06:28:51 PMMany members are bent they can't wear military ribbons on the corporate variants but then get uppity about CAP not being a military branch.
I've seen the issue of military ribbons not being allowed. Unfortunately, those members don't seem to get the fact that it isn't up to CAP, it's up to the branches. If the branch says no, then it's no. I don't agree with it, but that's irrelevant. Whether or not CAP is a military branch doesn't matter.
Are you telling me that there are not people on the Military and Reserves that who might be "wannabes" as well? I've known a few folks that have gone off the the Army and such and returned spouting all sorts of things I know to be false...one fellow, even disciplined for it.
There will always, in every activity, be individuals that will "hound" for glory and "avoid" the work. There will be those that join to "impress the ladies" or "get free College" who never even think they might have to serve and who might be annoyed by the prospect.
There are, thankfully, more of the sort that value the service and "want to be" there to accomplish and satisfy the true need to serve their Community, State and Nation as Soliders, Airmen, Sailors, Marines, fire fighters, police officers, teachers and the list goes on.
We must all mind what we say about service...
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:11:57 PMAre you telling me that there are not people on the Military and Reserves that who might be "wannabes" as well?
The simple logic is that you're not a military "wannabe" if you're in the military. Guardsmen and Reservists are in the military.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:11:57 PMI've known a few folks that have gone off the the Army and such and returned spouting all sorts of things I know to be false...one fellow, even disciplined for it.
Different issue. The person isn't a "wannabe", they're a liar.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:11:57 PMThere will always, in every activity, be individuals that will "hound" for glory and "avoid" the work. There will be those that join to "impress the ladies" or "get free College" who never even think they might have to serve and who might be annoyed by the prospect.
Agreed. And I've dealt with the "I just joined for college, I shouldn't be here" types. Try supervising them, that's enough to make you want to pull your hair out.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:11:57 PMThere are, thankfully, more of the sort that value the service and "want to be" there to accomplish and satisfy the true need to serve their Community, State and Nation as Soliders, Airmen, Sailors, Marines, fire fighters, police officers, teachers and the list goes on.
We all serve differently. I've run into people that expressed sorry that they didn't join, somehow thinking they were less of a person than I was because I served and they don't. I don't understand the concept, it's just not something I can wrap my head around. No one is inferior to me because they didn't wear a uniform.
People can serve their communities in ways that don't involve a uniform. A common phrase is "They also serve, who stand and watch." The members of the Air Warning Service (later becoming the Ground Observer Corps) didn't wear a uniform, didn't enlist, didn't carry weapons; but they still served.
People don't need to be police, or firefighters, or EMS to serve. You can do that with a Neighborhood Watch. Or, as a member of Civil Air Patrol.
I just realized how far this drift went, so I 'll address the OP.
Wilson and Spaatz medals? I wouldn't agree. Keep them, but don't categorize them as medals.
Longevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.
Combine Recruiter ribbons: Definitely. No real point to have separate ones. Pick a number for both sides of the membership, and be done with it.
Basic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.
"Campaign" awards: Another concept I like, but not the name. We don't have campaigns in CAP. To minimize a bunch of separate ribbons, I would suggest a device for the specific incident. If someone gets another one under their belt, they have the option of going with a different device or instead going with stars or leaves (but now both, it's either worn with one incident name device or with multiple attachments).
That's the strong ones. Anything else I could live with.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:27:52 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:11:57 PMAre you telling me that there are not people on the Military and Reserves that who might be "wannabes" as well?
The simple logic is that you're not a military "wannabe" if you're in the military. Guardsmen and Reservists are in the military.
I think it is a state of mind more than is admitted. I suppose I could join the Texas National Guard, have a short, lack lusture, "did the bear minimums" and unremarkable career at it...then return here as a EXPERT because I had been in the military. Would I then be a "wannabe" for being in the Civil Air Patrol? or, posses any more worth because I slept on a military installation for a number of years?
I am in awe of those that served. I am in shadow of those whose service was heroic and born of the stuff that is worthy of US military Awards and Decoration. Thse awards have worth for what they are, and so does their service. However, there are geat things done in CAP which CAP Awards recognize. I will not have that belitted out of specious comparison. That "comparsion" is as favorite past time of the CAPTALKER.
Also, to illustrate this further...
I have 13 years in the Civil Air Patrol, 12 of which I was extremely active. I've mentored Cadets that went on to bigger and better things who would have likely died in gangs otherwise, been to Hurricane relief efforts, been to REDCAPS and helped to make my part of CAP better than it was (and much , much more). Others here have done more and could list it. All of it from a "heart of service" with no pay, while holding down a family and a full time job. Yet, despite all that...there are those that belittle that service as some sort "wannabe." There are even others that will look down on me and those like me as "second class" in every way because I did not serve in the military.
I will likely never have the opportunity to wear US military awards on my CAP uniform...so I have no dog in the fight...but I will fight for those that can wear them to wear them and I will make it known to those that would not that CAP decorations are not somehow FAKE or SECOND CLASS.
Quote from: arajca on September 04, 2010, 04:39:45 PM
QuoteI know it's hard for a non-military member to understand, but a military service ribbon is just another stupid CAP ribbon that palls in comparison to the various awards, decorations, ribbons and service medals that a military member brings in terms of personal honor and credibility to this organization.
I guess it's hard for you to understand that CAP ribbons are important to...CAP members. Many of whom don't know what the military fruit salad you are wearing means, and most likely don't care. When I see a CAP member with a bunch of military awards and no CAP awards, my impression is they have no respect for CAP, despite being a member. Those who wear both show they have an understanding of CAP AND, more importantly, they respect what CAP offers.
If the AF or NB came down tomorrow and banned military awards on ALL CAP uniforms, that'd be fine.
Agreed!!!
How disrespectful to those CAP Members who earned those CAP Ribbons. With an attitude like that, I would not want that guy anywhere around my Cadets, no matter if he were a war hero.
I do believe the military has some very pointless ribbons itself. Basic training graduation ribbons?? Marksmanship ribbons!! etc.
I like the idea of CAP Ribbons on CAP uniforms. Period.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PM
Wilson and Spaatz medals? I wouldn't agree. Keep them, but don't categorize them as medals.
I would keep them as awards, they represent the pinicles of Senior and Cadet Professional Development. That is a significant enough situation to have a ribbon with a medal as an awards instead of a "decoration."
QuoteLongevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.
I agree, the idea of "RED SERVICE" is one if the oldest in CAP. There was once Green and Blue Service reflecting hours of Civil Defense Service.
QuoteCombine Recruiter ribbons: Definitely. No real point to have separate ones. Pick a number for both sides of the membership, and be done with it.
Again, I agree, I am even unsure why the different ribbons exist and continue to exist.
QuoteBasic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.
The idea of "Basic Training" would insinuate a period of intense training that does not exist in CAP. I don't think such training would be viable. On the Cadet side, where most initial training is done at the squadron and cadets join as individuals at any given time, a centralised wing BT would be difficult to get to (problems that exist with WING ENCAMPMENT) and cadets would likely drop out if not allowed promotion/participation without attendance.
Seniors would find it difficult to attend a three week course because we "have to make the money to be able to eat." Unless the status of CAP were upgraded to more like a Reserve Status where payment and work allowance could be made. Then again, the 70 year old who joins to be active in an organization may not wish to do a such training if it involved certain things. The nature of CAP must be tempered by realities.
Quote"Campaign" awards: Another concept I like, but not the name. We don't have campaigns in CAP. To minimize a bunch of separate ribbons, I would suggest a device for the specific incident. If someone gets another one under their belt, they have the option of going with a different device or instead going with stars or leaves (but now both, it's either worn with one incident name device or with multiple attachments).
I would narrow this down to catergories. Hurricane Relief, REDCAP, Homeland Security (which already exists), disaster relief (which also already exists) and other things where people "deploy" with some year (to indicate when it happened...or Hurricane Name) device for the mini-medal and multi-award device for the ribbon. The mini-medals with said indicators would be for display with only one being worn given during the presentation. Wearing them all would likely be in the realm of too much, the one worn on mess dress would follow the covention of the ribbon.
the military has several "pointless" ribbons or "thanks for being here awards" ... so does civil air patrol...
I wear my military ribbons AND my civil air patrol ribbons with EQUAL pride, for i am equally happy with my service in both, and I believe that both sets of ribbons have value anyway you look at it.
Was my service worthy of a bronze star or higher award? Nope, but i am [darn] proud of my Air Force Achievement Medal since i got it as an A1C...
Is my service in cap worth a high award? More than likely not but i am [darn] proud of my commanders com for service when i was cadet....
Please do not lower either sets of awards, military or cap, someone worked very hard to get some of them and they are proud to be able to do what they can.
I want to say that I do not think it is a dishonor to members who have served or continue to serve in the Military.
I would support the idea of a "military service ribbon" (tentitve naming) to recognize that a member has served in the armed forces. It will be a CAP ribbon and be situated somewhere in the appropriate order of precedence.
I think that one ribbon idea is currently in discussion to be worn on the White aviator shirt/grey pants combination (since military ribbons cannot be worn on that uniform combination).
On the flip side, I also think it would be great for the AF to have a ribbon that denotes one has served with the Civil Air Patrol as well.
Quote from: NCRblues on September 04, 2010, 08:07:02 PM
the military has several "pointless" ribbons or "thanks for being here awards" ... so does civil air patrol...
I wear my military ribbons AND my civil air patrol ribbons with EQUAL pride, for i am equally happy with my service in both, and I believe that both sets of ribbons have value anyway you look at it.
Was my service worthy of a bronze star or higher award? Nope, but i am [darn] proud of my Air Force Achievement Medal since i got it as an A1C...
Is my service in cap worth a high award? More than likely not but i am [darn] proud of my commanders com for service when i was cadet....
Please do not lower either sets of awards, military or cap, someone worked very hard to get some of them and they are proud to be able to do what they can.
Well written. Again, the problems only exists when people try to apply US military (or anyother organization) culture to CAP and CAP Culture to the Military.
The worth of these awards is inherent. Comparison as if they were somehow meant to be judges by the same rubric just starts arguments.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2010, 08:09:58 PM
I think that one ribbon idea is currently in discussion to be worn on the White aviator shirt/grey pants combination (since military ribbons cannot be worn on that uniform combination).
On the flip side, I also think it would be great for the AF to have a ribbon that denotes one has served with the Civil Air Patrol as well.
The idea of a "Military Service" CAP ribbon has merit, but, some might see it as a precursor to moving away from the USAF style uniform (since lots of CAPTALKERS see uniform policy as a barometer of things to come...a concept I find suspect.)
QuoteI will likely never have the opportunity to wear US military awards on my CAP uniform...so I have no dog in the fight...but I will fight for those that can wear them to wear them and I will make it known to those that would not that CAP decorations are not somehow FAKE or SECOND CLASS.
As someone who
knows they will never have the opportunity to wear a military uniform due to medical reasons, I would like to echo this point. CAP awards may not mean anything to some who have served (and carry that attitude), but being as how this is as close as I'll ever get to the RealMilitary™, they sure as hell do in my eyes.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:46:39 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:27:52 PMI think it is a state of mind more than is admitted. I suppose I could join the Texas National Guard, have a short, lack lusture, "did the bear minimums" and unremarkable career at it...then return here as a EXPERT because I had been in the military. Would I then be a "wannabe" for being in the Civil Air Patrol? or, posses any more worth because I slept on a military installation for a number of years?
I wouldn't consider you a "wannabe". Coming back as an "expert"? Wouldn't make you a "wannabe", just a blowhard.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:46:39 PMI am in awe of those that served. I am in shadow of those whose service was heroic and born of the stuff that is worthy of US military Awards and Decoration. Thse awards have worth for what they are, and so does their service.
I don't really understand the "awe" part, most military members are doing a job. Yes, many do it for patriotic reasons, but the uniform doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else. I can think of many things I would willingly die for, my country is just one of them.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:46:39 PMHowever, there are geat things done in CAP which CAP Awards recognize. I will not have that belitted out of specious comparison. That "comparsion" is as favorite past time of the CAPTALKER.
Yes, there are. CAP awards are not inferior to military awards, they're just different. Different as in comparing apples to oranges.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 04, 2010, 07:46:39 PMI have 13 years in the Civil Air Patrol, 12 of which I was extremely active. I've mentored Cadets that went on to bigger and better things who would have likely died in gangs otherwise, been to Hurricane relief efforts, been to REDCAPS and helped to make my part of CAP better than it was (and much , much more). Others here have done more and could list it. All of it from a "heart of service" with no pay, while holding down a family and a full time job. Yet, despite all that...there are those that belittle that service as some sort "wannabe." There are even others that will look down on me and those like me as "second class" in every way because I did not serve in the military.
Your service is just as commendable as mine, maybe even more so because you touched other lives and put them on the right track. In the military, I probably won't have the chance to shape the lives as near as many people.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PM
I just realized how far this drift went, so I 'll address the OP.
Wilson and Spaatz medals? I wouldn't agree. Keep them, but don't categorize them as medals.Quote
They already are medals...
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMLongevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.
Same ribbon new name.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMBasic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.
Got a better one? It is descriptive and accurate.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 08:23:20 PM
I don't really understand the "awe" part, most military members are doing a job. Yes, many do it for patriotic reasons, but the uniform doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else. I can think of many things I would willingly die for, my country is just one of them.
Hawk, would you mind if I elaborated on this. I must admit that there is something to this and this may get off the track a might but it does address what I believe to be an underpinning of this debate.
The "awe" I speak of comes from having made the choices I made. I choose "domestic" service to my nation as a teacher, I wanted to get married and raise a family (and keep it togehter) and complete my education. All the time the opportunity to serve in the military came around, but I had a distinct plan and vision. I wanted to do my part to win the "wars" at home, to educate and build a strong citizenry because I, as a student and citizen, saw society weakening and a strong indication that those things that make America what it has always been were eroding due, not to any political ideology, but to concepts like "ignorance and apathy."
And so, as the years went by...I focused on that. Sometimes to great triumph and other times to frustration. Then I discovered CAP...it allowed me to serve the community on every level I have ever wanted. Helping cadets, rescuring people and educating ina unique way.
As the years went by...something else happened...I had raidly passed the desired/ideal age to serve. There lies some regrets...one can't do everything.
The AWE I speak of comes from what a career serviceman or woman deals with in making that service. It could mean leaving a family behind for month at a time, or even loosing that family due to the stresses of being so far away. The rate of divorce I've seen among the military friends I have. That a service person would sacrifice this is awesome in the old definition of it.
That they would leave their homeland and be in situations of danger...and that they might never return alive. That is awesome in its scope.
That they endure ridicule and manipulation by ignorant fools furthering political agendas, and continue to do their job without even the ability to criticize, and, that when they do they can be fired. That ability to withstand what must be a holding of one's tongue inspires awe.
My awe of the military has little to do with the uniform or romantic view of the WARRIOR in popular culture and everything to do with what a WARRIOR faces merely to do their job. "Wannabe-ism" comes from worshiping the "IMAGE" the "IDOL" of what it means to be in the military without any true committment to the spirt and reality of it. Service is honorable, be it in CAP or the USAF.
I hope that makes sense and is not offensive to anyone.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMThey already are medals...
You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an
award.
Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an
award.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMLongevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.
Same ribbon new name.
And what I meant is "No." No new ribbon, no rename. Keep the ribbon, keep it's current name. Respect it's history, don't throw it away.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMBasic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.
Got a better one? It is descriptive and accurate.
No, I don't have a better name, and that does not mean it's a good idea. CAP does not have a basic training, so it's not descriptive, and definitely not accurate.
A ribbon to designate an initial entry training completion is a good idea. The name is not.
^like the "Membership Ribbon" and "Curry Ribbon"?!?!?
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMThey already are medals...
You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.
Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.
My point is that it is an "award," and should stay as one for the reasons I mentioned. There are those, however, that would support it merely being a "ribbon."
Since all CAP awards and decorations are basically "ribbons" with a "mini-medal," save those that are worn around the neck or the top decorations (which are full sized), with not full sized medal this is problematic should they start issuing the "CAP MEDAL of this".
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMThey already are medals...
You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.
Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMLongevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.
Same ribbon new name.
And what I meant is "No." No new ribbon, no rename. Keep the ribbon, keep it's current name. Respect it's history, don't throw it away.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMBasic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.
Got a better one? It is descriptive and accurate.
No, I don't have a better name, and that does not mean it's a good idea. CAP does not have a basic training, so it's not descriptive, and definitely not accurate.
A ribbon to designate an initial entry training completion is a good idea. The name is not.
You really going to split hairs with me!?
As for Red Service Ribbon vs CAP Longevity Ribbon.......come one....screw the "history" of the "Red Service Ribbon". It is not like we are preserving that history in any what.
As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 11:43:48 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 08:57:34 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMThey already are medals...
You're gonna have to show me that. All the pubs I have state that the Spaatz is an award.
Now, if you're talking about the fact that every single decoration that CAP has is available in a "medal" form, that doesn't fly. It's still called an award.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMLongevity ribbon: I say no. Our Red Service Ribbon has history. Keep it. Doesn't matter if a military member doesn't know what it is. If they want to, they can ask.
Same ribbon new name.
And what I meant is "No." No new ribbon, no rename. Keep the ribbon, keep it's current name. Respect it's history, don't throw it away.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 08:40:10 PMQuote from: Hawk200 on September 04, 2010, 07:42:02 PMBasic Training Ribbon: The concept I like, don't know about the name.
Got a better one? It is descriptive and accurate.
No, I don't have a better name, and that does not mean it's a good idea. CAP does not have a basic training, so it's not descriptive, and definitely not accurate.
A ribbon to designate an initial entry training completion is a good idea. The name is not.
You really going to split hairs with me!?
As for Red Service Ribbon vs CAP Longevity Ribbon.......come one....screw the "history" of the "Red Service Ribbon". It is not like we are preserving that history in any what.
As for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.
Would you...could you...honestly make a reference to CAP LEVEL I as "Basic Training?" While it is basic training (lower case), the connotation will be looked at a "Basic Training" (upper case) and create all sorts of ridicule from the ignorant.
Also, there is no fault or folly in preserving the "RED SERVICE" ribbon, in fact, that is one place that remains distinctively CAP. I say, leave it alone.
I got no time for the ravings of the ignorant.
If Joe Blow USAF type thinks the CAP Basic Training Ribbon is the same as the USAF Basic Military Training Ribbon....then it is his problem.
If we want to call it the Initial Training Ribbon.....what ever....but I can't spend my life worried that some ignoramus may get the wrong idea.
As for the "Red Service Ribbon"........it does not mean anything. That is...the community service ribbon....service to community....Command Service Ribbon.....service as a commander.....Red Service........Service to the Reds....Why does Cincinnati get our special service....and not any other MLB team? ;D
The Longevity Ribbon....actually tells the world what it is for.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 05, 2010, 12:23:47 AM
I got no time for the ravings of the ignorant.
If Joe Blow USAF type thinks the CAP Basic Training Ribbon is the same as the USAF Basic Military Training Ribbon....then it is his problem.
If we want to call it the Initial Training Ribbon.....what ever....but I can't spend my life worried that some ignoramus may get the wrong idea.
As for the "Red Service Ribbon"........it does not mean anything. That is...the community service ribbon....service to community....Command Service Ribbon.....service as a commander.....Red Service........Service to the Reds....Why does Cincinnati get our special service....and not any other MLB team? ;D
The Longevity Ribbon....actually tells the world what it is for.
I fully agree with your first comments. Many times we give too much creedence to the ignorant instead of taking the time to educate them.
As for Red Service, the historical significance of it is what makes me its fan. I would likely not protest all that much if it were changed to being called "the" Longevity Ribbon, since it already is "a" longevity ribbon.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 11:43:48 PMYou really going to split hairs with me!?
It's not splitting hairs to call something by it's designated terminology, and ignoring your slang. Slang terminology is what's muddying our program as it is, and you're empowering it.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 11:43:48 PMAs for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.
If you think that relates to Basic Training, yours must have been pretty simple. How'd you skip the six weeks? They're not the same. Never have been, never will be.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 05, 2010, 02:47:42 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 11:43:48 PMYou really going to split hairs with me!?
It's not splitting hairs to call something by it's designated terminology, and ignoring your slang. Slang terminology is what's muddying our program as it is, and you're empowering it.
Yes, either there are "Class A" uniforms in CAP or there are not. (slight sniker...or a laugh in a sly or derisive, partly stifled manner)
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 05, 2010, 02:47:42 AMQuote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 11:43:48 PMAs for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.
If you think that relates to Basic Training, yours must have been pretty simple. How'd you skip the six weeks? They're not the same. Never have been, never will be.
There you go equating CAP stuff with RM stuff.
It is not the BMTS ribbon....it is the CAP Basic Training Ribbon.
You bring me to task about correct terminolgy.....so you need to stop comparing apples and oranges.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 05, 2010, 09:15:48 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 05, 2010, 02:47:42 AMQuote from: lordmonar on September 04, 2010, 11:43:48 PMAs for the CAP basic training ribbon....CAP does too have a basic training......it is called Level I for Seniors and Curry Achievement for Cadets.
If you think that relates to Basic Training, yours must have been pretty simple. How'd you skip the six weeks? They're not the same. Never have been, never will be.
There you go equating CAP stuff with RM stuff.
It is not the BMTS ribbon....it is the CAP Basic Training Ribbon.
You bring me to task about correct terminolgy.....so you need to stop comparing apples and oranges.
You're the one trying to apply a typical military term to a CAP ribbon. It's true that the two don't compare, but using a name that is inevitably going to draw comparisons isn't going to help. Don't draw it in the first place.
"Initial training award" or "initial training ribbon" might be appropriate. "Basic Training Ribbon" isn't. We don't have a "basic training." Don't
imply that we do. That's where the "wannabe" impressions begin.
This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 12:20:34 AMThis thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.
Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.
Quote from: Patterson on September 04, 2010, 07:53:48 PM
Agreed!!!
How disrespectful to those CAP Members who earned those CAP Ribbons. With an attitude like that, I would not want that guy anywhere around my Cadets, no matter if he were a war hero.
I do believe the military has some very pointless ribbons itself. Basic training graduation ribbons?? Marksmanship ribbons!! etc.
I like the idea of CAP Ribbons on CAP uniforms. Period.
Basic training ribbon? Arguable that it could be unnecessary, since you're rather likely to have done that if you are enlisted and in the military... ::)
Marksmanship, I can see uses for that.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 05, 2010, 12:23:47 AM
As for the "Red Service Ribbon"........it does not mean anything. That is...the community service ribbon....service to community....Command Service Ribbon.....service as a commander.....Red Service........Service to the Reds....Why does Cincinnati get our special service....and not any other MLB team? ;D
The Longevity Ribbon....actually tells the world what it is for.
And the Medal of
Honor is awarded for
valor. (Emphasis mine)
Time for a change on that as well?
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 02:52:28 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 12:20:34 AMThis thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.
Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.
Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 01:11:47 PMBecause you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.
Heated is up for debate.
Apparently, so is whether or not it means anything. When the small details become meaningless, it's only a matter of time before the bigger issues become meaningless as well.
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 02:52:28 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 12:20:34 AMThis thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.
Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.
Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.
Not a very popular thing to say. I wonder why you, or anyone for that matter, would make such a comment. If CAP decoration are "bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot" neither do any awards anywhere.
Perhaps if you and we all could understand that the awards, ribbons and medals "stand for something..." an act, time spent, a series of "good turns" or a completion of some program or project; then we would find that they do mean a great deal. However, if you don't value them youself...that is personal. I would submit that you hold those beliefs and refrain from trying to make others conform to them (should that be your goal, I can only speculate at this point) if they should differ.
By the way, one meaning of the word "academic" relates to "meaninglessness."
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 12:20:34 AM
This thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.
I don't know about that. I know a couple of professors who have lost their jobs due to office politics. I wouldn't call that small stakes.
My point is this....I don't do stuff to get a ribbon or medal or anything else(and yes there are a few doodads that I am proud of)...I do it because it's the right or necessary thing to do. To sit around debating medals and ribbons in this manner strikes me as unimportant. And we criticize some of the cadets that come on here as being bling happy. Do what you do for you not for what you can wear because of it.
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 09:28:43 PM
My point is this....I don't do stuff to get a ribbon or medal or anything else(and yes there are a few doodads that I am proud of)...I do it because it's the right or necessary thing to do. To sit around debating medals and ribbons in this manner strikes me as unimportant. And we criticize some of the cadets that come on here as being bling happy. Do what you do for you not for what you can wear because of it.
I don't think anyone is debating medals and ribbons for their own pleasure, or in hopes that someday they will earn them themselves. I think the original intent of these discussions stems from a better way to recognize the efforts of those who, "do it because it's the right or necessary thing to do."
Each and every award or decoration that you earn or are awarded represents a thank you from either an individual person or from the organization. Sure, they could all be pieces of paper, or plaques, but I don't think we have that much wall space :D
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 06, 2010, 02:52:28 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on September 06, 2010, 12:20:34 AMThis thread reminds me of what they say about office politics in academia. They are so vicious because the stakes are so small.
Not sure why. The contents of this thread don't relate to academia.
Because you're having very heated discussions over bits of cloth and metal that in the end really don't mean a whole lot.
Wow. Just wow.
It's just that when I hear or see a lot of conversation about ribbons or awards, I get this image of a bunch of "perfumed prince" careerists sitting in the Pentagon scheming to get their next OER and "ticket punch" assignment and the heck with the troops. And, no, I am not accusing anyone of that here or inferring that anyone is sitting around scheming to raise their rack. It's just that I've seen a lot of "bling" hunting in my time to the point that when there is a thread that discusses ribbons, awards, or "bling" it just raises my hackles automatically.
I can see that point of view.....but just for the record that is NOT what I was trying to do. If anything I am trying to reduce the absolute number of ribbons, standardise what they are for and to make the system easy to use and understand.
I understand and that makes sense but this is CAP and it'll never fly if it does make sense. ;)
Quote from: lordmonar on September 02, 2010, 08:03:26 PM
Well I was thinking.....If I Were God...and wanted to take on the CAP decorations....what would it look like?
1. CAP Medal of Valor (Replaces the SMoV)
2. CAP Cross (replaces the BMoV)
2. CAP Distinguished Service Medal (awarded by the BoG for service to CAP)
3. CAP (for work at the National Level)
4. CAP Superior Service Medal (For work at regional level)
5. CAP Legion Of Merit (for long and distinguished service to CAP)
6. CAP Meritorious Service Medal (for work at wing level)
7. CAP Life Saving Medal
8. CAP Find Medal
9. Cap Aerial Achievement Award (combines the ES/CD/HLS/DR/OR medals for air crew)
10. CAP Ground Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for ground teams)
11. CAP Mission Base Achievement Award (Combines the ES/CD/DR/HLS medal for mission base personnel)
12. CAP Commendation Medal (for work at Group Level)
13. CAP Achievement Medal (for work at unit level).
14. BoG Unit Citation (awarded by Bog for doing some really top notch work)
15. CAP Meritorious Unit Award
16. CAP Outstanding Unit Award
17. CAP Quality Unit Award (awarded yearly if you meet basic unit quality factors)
17. CAP Aerospace Education Award (Yeager)
18. Wilson Medal
19. CAP Professional Development Award (replaces leadership, Garber, Loening)
20. Spaatz Medal
21. Cadet Professional Development Ribbon
22. CAP Campaign Medals (these can be special awards created for those who participated in special operations (Columbia search, Katrina, Fosset Search, etc). They can be either the same ribbon or make special ones for each operations...worn in the order received).
23. Longevity Ribbon (replaces red service Medal)
24. Recruiting Ribbon (combines both the cadet and senior recruiter ribbon)
25. IACE
26. NCSA Ribbon (combines ALL NCSAs into a single ribbon).
27. Cadet Marksman Ribbon
28. Encampment Ribbon
29. Community Service Ribbon
30. CAP Basic Training Ribbon (Replaces Curry for cadets and Membership for Seniors (prior cadets would wear a star when they complete level I).
Okay....
First off.....this does not solve any nonexistent problem...that is don't say "why do we need to change anything".
This does a a couple of things for us.
1. It ties our level of awards with the USAF award system....so they will match up. (this is not to say they are same thing...so don't go there! The CAP cross is not equivalent to the AF Cross!).
2. It ties the awards with a specific level of expected achievement......i.e. the top level of service award medals would be for those doing work at the top level! Just like the USAF you still have discretion of awarding the appropriate award no matter what echelon the individual works at.
3. It eliminate a lot of medals/ribbons that we already get things for (cadets get both a ribbon and a rank....so give them a ribbon with stars on it to replace all those other ribbons....same story for the SMs).
4. It cleans up some of the weirdness of some of the ribbons..(a find is a find is a find....does not/should not matter if you got a find on foot as a GTM, in the air as a MS or working the mission base as MRO.
5. It also cleans up the DR/CD/ES/HLS weirdness. If you fly 100 mission hours....I want to give you something to put on your uniform....I don't care if it was 100 ES mission or 100 CD mission...it was 100 mission. (don't yell at me about the numbers...I just threw something out there).
6. It allows us to reward all out operational people for their contribution...not just air crew and GT.
Just a thought.
You guys are funny. First you absolutely denigrate an individual for chosing to present a conservative appearance by only wearing his military ribbons and then you slam others for "bling hunting." Make up your minds and thanx for the lack of respect of others.
The fact is that in this program, ribbons and medals serve as an incentive to achieve. Without all the "bling," I wonder if there would be serious PD achievement or participation. There are so many ribbons because its necessary to encourage people to progress through the program.
However, streamlining the number of ribbons/medals isn't a bad idea. Consider these suggestions if you would please. Although I personally like the idea of a Wilson Medal (it harkens back to the Falcon Award/Medal), I think the idea of a PD ribbon is great. Otherwise, why not create a policy where only the highest PD ribbon is worn. That stipulation is already required of cadets who transition to seniors.
As far as "campaign medals," fine, ok, but I would limit it to one. The military has one medal for everything that doesn't fit into other campaign medal categories. It's called the Armed Forces Service Medal. A CAP-similar medal with appropriate devices to reflect specific operations would be interesting. Think of all the cool devices --space shuttles, hurricane storm clouds, etc. A person who served in the Antartic wears a device on that military medal to reflect being wintered over.
Finally, for AEOs, the Yeager Award isn't the highest ribbon they can earn. The other is a Crossfield Award if the AEO achieves a master rating. Make it a stipulation that only the higher award (Crossfield) is worn, especially since the Yeager is a requirement to get the Crossfield.
I wouldn't call it a basic training ribbon. How about just training ribbon to recognize initial training. Here's another thing to consider. The Air Force allows devices to be worn on that ribbon if the individual has completed more than one initial training, in other words, a prior enlisted individual would wear a device on the ribbon if they completed BMTS and OTS or some sort of medical officer training. In CAP, that means that a former cadet who completes Level One could wear a device.
Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PM
Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.
I agree with that thought. It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal. Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient. Almost like "real military thing".
Quote from: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PM
Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.
I agree with that thought. It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal. Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient. Almost like "real military thing".
In 20 years of the US Army, I wore full size medals three times. All were funerals.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PMwhy not create a policy where only the highest PD ribbon is worn. That stipulation is already required of cadets who transition to seniors.
I would like to develope a system where we don't have to remove ribbons as we go along.
Reducing the number of cadet acheivment ribbons to just three (CAP Inital/basic training, Cadet PD and Spaatz) and the SM PD ribbons to three (CAP Inital/basic training, Senior PD and Wilson) makes it possible for cadets to simply start adding SM ribbons when the move over.
Removing ribbons because you have a higher one reduces the imporatnce of the lower ribbon...i.e. it is not important enough to share space with your other ribbons. Plus it just complicates it when some forgets to remove a ribbon as they move up.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PMAs far as "campaign medals," fine, ok, but I would limit it to one. The military has one medal for everything that doesn't fit into other campaign medal categories. It's called the Armed Forces Service Medal. A CAP-similar medal with appropriate devices to reflect specific operations would be interesting. Think of all the cool devices --space shuttles, hurricane storm clouds, etc. A person who served in the Antartic wears a device on that military medal to reflect being wintered over.
I would go for that. I standard CAP Service medal and a list of operations that rate it. I would leave the door open for the few really large operations that we have done.....it is not like I am talking one for every floor, storm...but for major operations (911, Challanger, Katrina) they could make a special on for that....or not.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PMFinally, for AEOs, the Yeager Award isn't the highest ribbon they can earn. The other is a Crossfield Award if the AEO achieves a master rating. Make it a stipulation that only the higher award (Crossfield) is worn, especially since the Yeager is a requirement to get the Crossfield.
Kill teh Crossfield all together. Master rated AEO's have a badge no need for a special ribbon. Yeager is open to all members and is designed to get them to read the stuipid book.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PMI wouldn't call it a basic training ribbon. How about just training ribbon to recognize initial training. Here's another thing to consider. The Air Force allows devices to be worn on that ribbon if the individual has completed more than one initial training, in other words, a prior enlisted individual would wear a device on the ribbon if they completed BMTS and OTS or some sort of medical officer training. In CAP, that means that a former cadet who completes Level One could wear a device.
I agree...what ever we call it....you get the ribbon for completing Achievement one and a star when you complete level I. If you were never a cadet no star. Just like a former enlisted member going to OTS.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PMFinally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.
I agree with that as well. Even if squadrons only kept one or two sets on hand just to do the presentation....it just looks "right" to actually pin on the decoration. When I was CC in Misawa we had the Milestone mini medals we would use for the presentation ceremony. (we made them give it back later ;D).
Quote from: Dwight J. Dutton on September 09, 2010, 12:00:01 AM
Quote from: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PM
Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.
I agree with that thought. It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal. Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient. Almost like "real military thing".
In 20 years of the US Army, I wore full size medals three times. All were funerals.
That's three times more then I ever did in 22 years on AD USAF. The full sized medals are not for the wearing...but for the presentation ceremony and the shadow box.
Me, too.
The fact that I have never worn my full-sized medals, however, doesn't negate the status or prestige that I feel for them.
On active duty, I earned enough plaques, trophies, mugs and other things to fill a wall and several shelves. It's called an "I Love Me Wall." Then everytime someone went PCS, you'd see boxes of these awards next to a garbage can. I can honestly say that I, too, did the same and only retained very few that had I had deep attachment to.
I kept the medals. A full-sized medal gives a deeper meaning to the dedication, devotion to duty and/or sacrifice that the honor/recognition is supposed to represent. If full-sized medals aren't a valid form of recognition, than how about the World War II Air Medals. Wouldn't you have liked to have observed those ceremonies? Imagine the honor and prestige for those individual's families and I'll bet that few of them never wore their full-sized medals again. Think, too, of those Air Medals awarded to the CAP members lost in the line of duty. That medal represented one last permanent reminder of a certain family member's sacrifice. The point is, that the medal is a little more permanent than a plaque or certificate.
In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.
If there were full sized medals, available to purchase, to accompany our major decorations or achievements, gee, think of it. Imagine the proceeds/share/cut that CAP would generate on this Vanguard project....it may certainly be a better form of recognition than a CAP sword.
One other thing, Lordmonar, did you realize your idea brings CAP back full circle to the 50s and 60s when there were Red, White and Blue Training Ribbons for cadets?
Interesting!
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 09, 2010, 02:43:50 AM
In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.
Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 09, 2010, 02:43:50 AM
In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.
Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?
Exactly. The only full-size presentation medals are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished Service Medal. Everything else just gets a ribbon, cert and a mini-medal. (You gotta pay for yor mini-medal and ribbon.)
Are we eligible for AF civilian awards?
I don't see why not, and if so, we could probably replace some of our awards with those.
http://tinyurl.com/22pk66h
There is even a civilian version of the Air Medal:
http://tinyurl.com/2ubfegm
It has to relate to the statutory authority that creates the medal. Some are done by the President and Congress, some are done within the military service.
Without digging through the medal criteria, I thought that some decorations were open to civilians...like the Air Medal. These days, however, most of the decorations and medals are created only with the military side in mind. AF civil service has their own decorations and most of them relate to DAFC duties. There are one or two DAFC medals that specifically relate to career service and are awarded only at the time of retirement.
I do think, however, it would be absolutely amazing and quite the honor if NHQ and CAP-USAF would seek permission from the CSAF to do that...even if it were only limited to things like AFCMs or AFAMs or their similar civilian decorations. If the Air Medal was previously awarded to CAP, why can't CAP members be awarded them now. Think of all those flying hours in support of various disasters or the Columbia Recovery.
Congress is now doing a Congressional Medal Honoring WWII CAP members. Why not have the Congressional Squadron draft similar legislation opening eligiblity for a specific decoration(s) to CAP?
In WWII, those types of civilian decorations were ribbons and some CAP members received them for their duties.
Quote from: Dwight J. Dutton on September 09, 2010, 12:00:01 AM
Quote from: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 08, 2010, 11:26:55 PM
Finally, I renew my thought that someone at NHQ or Vanguard consider full-sized medals for purchase. I would certainly line up if the full-sized medals were available, regardless of the cost.
I agree with that thought. It is too cool to present a Mitchell and hand over the actual medal. Even though said Cadet would not be able to wear it, just having it is (i would imagine) appreciated by the recipient. Almost like "real military thing".
In 20 years of the US Army, I wore full size medals three times. All were funerals.
It doesn't matter if they're ever worn. I'd like them for my shadowbox. They should be made available to the members who wish to purchase them.
I, too, would pay for them ...
Jack
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on September 09, 2010, 05:56:29 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 09, 2010, 02:43:50 AM
In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.
Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?
Exactly. The only full-size presentation medals are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished Service Medal. Everything else just gets a ribbon, cert and a mini-medal. (You gotta pay for yor mini-medal and ribbon.)
Well, If you count the AFA and AFSA medals, it comes out to 5.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 09, 2010, 07:33:13 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on September 09, 2010, 05:56:29 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 09, 2010, 02:43:50 AM
In another sense, it doesn't seem fair. Why does NHQ seem to honor the corporate officers with presentation medals and then leave mostly certificates and ribbons for the lower echelons of this organization.
Where is NHQ, specifically, honoring corporate officers with something not available to lower echelons?
Exactly. The only full-size presentation medals are the Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished Service Medal. Everything else just gets a ribbon, cert and a mini-medal. (You gotta pay for yor mini-medal and ribbon.)
Well, If you count the AFA and AFSA medals, it comes out to 5.
OK, I'll grant you a gold star for considering those two medals, but it's not really correct for the sake of this discussion.
Those medals aren't awarded by the CAP. They come from the Air Force Association and Air Force Sergeant's Association and are only awarded to specific sellected cadets.
More time killed...
[attachment deleted by admin]
Amend item J. (Find Award) to allow it to be awared to aircrew, ground teams AND mission base personel at the discrestion of the IC with approval of the wing commander. And eliminate the stuff about CG or CGAux too confusing.
Expand on K, L, and M to define what a "sortie" is. (ie a take off and landing or any flight over two hours for aircrew. Does time sitting around the mission base count as sortie time for the ground crew? How many hours consitutes a sortie for mission base personnel?)
V. Eliminate the silver and gold stars....change them to just bronze stars (1 for Level III and 2 for Level IV).
X. eliminate the gold star or change it to a bonze star for each achievement completed.
Y. Eliminate the star for COS. Replace it with bronze stars for achiemvents completed between Mitchell and Earhart.
Z. Add Bronze stars for acheivements.
bb. Need to define particpation. Is the count for each "sortie" of one for each "mission"...for example if you partipcate in all five days of a five day mission as an MRO does that count as 1 "mission" or 5 "missions"? (I would use the same defintions as we use for the arieal/ground/Incident base acheiment medals).
dd. No logevity ribbon at 2 years (or we make each clasp a 2 year...let's set a standard and keep it).
ee. Same deal (set the standard and let it ride).
jj. Remove the community service "conducted by CAP" rule. Make sure that the community service is NOT something directly tied to CAP (i.e. SAR is a community service...but is directly tied to CAP, Air Show Support is community Service but is directly tied to CAP....but if the CAP unit adopts a highway....those hours worked should count. YMMV).
KK, LL, MM, NN....kill them all together. If we want to do cadet of the year program let's develope our own. If we keep them....they should properly go below the CAP basic Training Ribbon as they are not CAP awards.
I'll post an update tonight, but a couple things I'll address now:
J. This awarded ONLY to the aircrew or ground team actually finding the target. Since base staff do not search, they cannot find the target. It is not awarded to every air crew and ground team involved in the search, only the one that actually finds the target.
Z. Two points. a) there are five achievements between the Wright Bros and Mitchell - five devices won't fit on one ribbon. b) each achievement, except the last, get a stripe.
bb. Addressed in last line. I added a clarification.
dd. Common practice in business is recognition of two years, five years, and every five thereafter. It follows the same system as the Red Service Ribbon now.
ee. I see this as a compromise. Cadets get it for every two, seniors for every seven. This provides for a simple start up, then makes the math easy once you get to five.
KK, LL, MM, NN moved down below CAP Basic Training Ribbon. If a CAP cadet officer and cadet NCO of the year program was developed, I could easily drop these four. Give me some criteria to include and I'll make the change.
Not entirely true, it is basically up to the IC and/or the Wing CC (or designate):
Per 60-3:
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a FIND. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 09, 2010, 06:21:57 AM
Are we eligible for AF civilian awards?
I don't see why not, and if so, we could probably replace some of our awards with those.
http://tinyurl.com/22pk66h
There is even a civilian version of the Air Medal:
http://tinyurl.com/2ubfegm
I agree with you 100%! Such as you get the civilian air medal for 25 missions of search and rescue, counter drug, and homeland security in any combination :)
I work at a retirement home and one of our residents is a B-17G lead pilot who flew 30 missions in the 95th bomb group from Horham air base in the 8th Air Force. He has a DFC and 5 Air medals. He said he would get an Air medal for every 5 missions. Perhaps 25 missions in CAP could be used instead of 5 combat missions with people shooting at you :)
Quote from: Eclipse on September 15, 2010, 10:10:04 PM
Not entirely true, it is basically up to the IC and/or the Wing CC (or designate):
Per 60-3:
1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a FIND. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.
OK. I had just cut and pasted from 39-3 for my list.
Quote from: arajca on September 15, 2010, 09:52:30 PM
J. This awarded ONLY to the aircrew or ground team actually finding the target. Since base staff do not search, they cannot find the target. It is not awarded to every air crew and ground team involved in the search, only the one that actually finds the target.
Air Crew and Ground Teams do not work in a vacumn. I agree that not everyone who signs in the mission base should get it....but your planning section and ops section are just as much a part of the team as the scanner or GTM3 trainee on their first mission.
QuoteZ. Two points. a) there are five achievements between the Wright Bros and Mitchell - five devices won't fit on one ribbon. b) each achievement, except the last, get a stripe.
Yes they will...one silver star=5 bronze stars.
I understand that we are kind of double dipping (stripes and ribbon bugs)...the idea is 20 years later former Cadet MSgt Jimbody will still be wearing his Wright Brothers ribbon with two bronze stars so everyone will know how far he progressed in the Cadet Program. (That was why I wanted to ax the Wright Bro, Mitchell, Earhart and Eaker ribbons in the first place....and replace them with just a Cadet Programs Ribbon with stars).
Quotedd. Common practice in business is recognition of two years, five years, and every five thereafter. It follows the same system as the Red Service Ribbon now.
Common business practice is to recognise each year, or four years, or 10 years......keep it simple....why are your first two years important but not your next two years? I don't care what number you use....just pick a number and stick to it.
Quoteee. I see this as a compromise. Cadets get it for every two, seniors for every seven. This provides for a simple start up, then makes the math easy once you get to five.
Sounds good to me.
QuoteKK, LL, MM, NN moved down below CAP Basic Training Ribbon. If a CAP cadet officer and cadet NCO of the year program was developed, I could easily drop these four. Give me some criteria to include and I'll make the change.
concur.
Updated once again:
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Quote from: BradM on September 15, 2010, 10:41:20 PM
I work at a retirement home and one of our residents is a B-17G lead pilot who flew 30 missions in the 95th bomb group from Horham air base in the 8th Air Force. He has a DFC and 5 Air medals. He said he would get an Air medal for every 5 missions. Perhaps 25 missions in CAP could be used instead of 5 combat missions with people shooting at you :)
Lets see, B-17 loss rate was about 25% on the early missions. Odds of surviving five missions - Less than one percent.
Quote from: Short Field on September 17, 2010, 01:41:24 AM
Quote from: BradM on September 15, 2010, 10:41:20 PM
I work at a retirement home and one of our residents is a B-17G lead pilot who flew 30 missions in the 95th bomb group from Horham air base in the 8th Air Force. He has a DFC and 5 Air medals. He said he would get an Air medal for every 5 missions. Perhaps 25 missions in CAP could be used instead of 5 combat missions with people shooting at you :)
Lets see, B-17 loss rate was about 25% on the early missions. Odds of surviving five missions - Less than one percent.
He served 1944 to 1945. Are you saying then that 25 missions is too generous? 100 CAP air missions to get an Air Medal then? If not the military version there is a Civilian Air Medal as well. :)
Quote from: BradM on September 17, 2010, 07:56:00 PM
He served 1944 to 1945. Are you saying then that 25 missions is too generous? 100 CAP air missions to get an Air Medal then? If not the military version there is a Civilian Air Medal as well. :)
1. The renewed Strategic Bombing Campaign ran from Sep 1944 - Apr 1945.
QuoteThe cost of the strategic bombing campaign was very high. The Allies lost almost 160,000 airmen, almost exactly distributed among American and British flyers). The cost to Germany was much higher. More than half of the bombs that fell on Germany would fall in the next 6 month period after the strategic bombing campaign was resumed (September 1944). German cities were devastated. The number of German civilians killed is not known precisely, but most historians believe that it was more than 300,000 people. The bombing campaign did not as some proponents of aerial warfare had hoped, force the NAZIs to make peace. Nor did it crack German civilian morale. It did, however, achieve its objectives. The German capacity to make war was destroyed. Germany's oil supplies were devastated. Not only did Germany lose access to imported oil, but its synthetic plants were devastated. The result was that the Wehrmacht was largely immobilized. Hitler's final last offensive was launched in the Ardennes (December 16, 1944). It was at first quite successful. One of the reasons it failed was that the Germans simply ran out of fuel. Units had to abandon fully functioning tanks and armored vehicles.
What many people fail to realize is that the US Army Air Corp losses were greater than USMC losses in the Pacific.
Don't try to compare a combat mission and the resulting medal with a CAP mission.
I don't think the Air Force currently differentiates between combat and non-combat sorties for things like the Air Medal and Aerial Achievement Medal. I thought I read somewhere that Army Air Force crews only had to fly 100 non-combat sorties or perhaps even hours when CAP aircrews were tasked with flying 200 sorties/hours.
The nature of this organization/mission, however, is such that I would have thought that all those who flew the hurricane or oil spill sorties should have been put in for Air Medals and I don't understand why the support personnel weren't recommended for similar levels of awards due to the nature of this emergency.
Someone at NHQ has to take up the cause and research what needs to be done to open this channel and begin the process, but then I can already see the writing on the wall as to why it wouldn't be allowed. Someone will claim recognizing all that sacrifice would be too expensive on the part of the DoD.
It's just like Cold War veterans. They fought/served during what was essentially a war of nuclear deterrence and various confrontations and only get a certificate for their service/sacrifice.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 18, 2010, 10:56:49 AM
I don't think the Air Force currently differentiates between combat and non-combat sorties for things like the Air Medal and Aerial Achievement Medal. I thought I read somewhere that Army Air Force crews only had to fly 100 non-combat sorties or perhaps even hours when CAP aircrews were tasked with flying 200 sorties/hours.
The nature of this organization/mission, however, is such that I would have thought that all those who flew the hurricane or oil spill sorties should have been put in for Air Medals and I don't understand why the support personnel weren't recommended for similar levels of awards due to the nature of this emergency.
Someone at NHQ has to take up the cause and research what needs to be done to open this channel and begin the process, but then I can already see the writing on the wall as to why it wouldn't be allowed. Someone will claim recognizing all that sacrifice would be too expensive on the part of the DoD.
It's just like Cold War veterans. They fought/served during what was essentially a war of nuclear deterrence and various confrontations and only get a certificate for their service/sacrifice.
If you google the USCENTAF Guidebook it'll tell you the criteria the AF uses for the Air Medal and Aerial Achievement Medal.
They do differentiate between combat and combat support sorties for each one and it depends on the contingency your flying in support of as well as the aircraft you're flying in and it goes by points (or a single act of heroism).
For the C-5 group we have to enter the Area of Responsibility (combat zone) and get 15 points for each separate mission number, only one per day. Once you get 210 points (70% rule) you can be awarded your first Air Medal (130% for the second award). Only combat missions can be used for the AM.
For the Aerial Achievement Medal you need 105 points for the first award (70% rule) and you can use combat for 15 points each or combat support for 7.5 points each.
I'm not seeing CAP entering a combat zone, and the act of heroism required would be pretty tough to do without dying to save a General somewhere...
Minor changes, including approval authority levels.
Ok if the military Air medal is out of the question. How about the Civilian Air medal for 100 CAP missions?
http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066 (http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066)
Or if that is out of the question, how about a CAP Air Medal that could go before the CAP Bronze Medal of Valor in order of precedence?
Quote from: jaybird512 on September 18, 2010, 03:44:05 PMI'm not seeing CAP entering a combat zone, and the act of heroism required would be pretty tough to do without dying to save a General somewhere...
Any chance of AK-47 fire from the ground or even a shoulder launched ground to air missile for a drug enforcement or homeland security mission? The Mexican criminal gangs are heavily armed and a terrorist group could have shoulder launched missiles. Perhaps I am reading too much Tom Clancy? :)
One tweak needs to be made: rename the 'Wind' campaign ribbon to 'Weather' - that is more inclusive of weather related events such as a blizzard (which is not covered in the original award criteria). 'Man-made' sounds better than 'man-caused', in my opinion.
Eaker awardees will probably be up in arms at their omission from the award list... just sayin' ;D
You might want to consider thinning down the campaigns to two ribbons: 'Natural disaster' (will cover weather, fire, flood, earthquake, etc.) and 'Man-made disaster' - industrial accident, or any disaster man-made in scope that meets the three prerequisites listed in the criteria.
Quote from: BradM on September 19, 2010, 02:56:10 AM
Perhaps I am reading too much Tom Clancy? :)
You think??? Sorry but nothing you earn in CAP is going to get you VFW membership.
Quote from: arajca on September 17, 2010, 12:53:55 AM
Updated once again:
Wow, even more ribbons than we have now. Going in the wrong direction in my opinion.
Sidebar - Is there a ribbon with the Livesaving Award currently? Thought it was just a certificate.
Yes there is a ribbon. Red w/ white and yellow stripes on either end.
Quote from: caphistorian on September 19, 2010, 02:18:16 PM
Yes there is a ribbon. Red w/ white and yellow stripes on either end.
Occasionally mistaken as the Spaatz ribbon.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on September 19, 2010, 04:21:52 AM
One tweak needs to be made: rename the 'Wind' campaign ribbon to 'Weather' - that is more inclusive of weather related events such as a blizzard (which is not covered in the original award criteria). 'Man-made' sounds better than 'man-caused', in my opinion.
Eaker awardees will probably be up in arms at their omission from the award list... just sayin' ;D
You might want to consider thinning down the campaigns to two ribbons: 'Natural disaster' (will cover weather, fire, flood, earthquake, etc.) and 'Man-made disaster' - industrial accident, or any disaster man-made in scope that meets the three prerequisites listed in the criteria.
Sounds good. Easily done.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 19, 2010, 02:06:34 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 17, 2010, 12:53:55 AM
Updated once again:
Wow, even more ribbons than we have now. Going in the wrong direction in my opinion.
Well, there were some issues with dropping some, i.e. cadet milestones. Also, delineating the campaign ribbons added some, but at the same time eliminates the potential of a new ribbon for each campaign. The number of different campaign ribbons may be reduced.
One ribbon missing is the Cadet COP. There are still quite a few members that earned that as a cadet.
What were the requirements for the Cadet COP? What was the last authorized for award date? It's not in CAPR 39-3.
Quote from: arajca on September 19, 2010, 09:38:41 PM
What were the requirements for the Cadet COP? What was the last authorized for award date? It's not in CAPR 39-3.
Well, it was replaced by the Billy Mitchell Award. We're talking mid 60's here.
The Cadet COP was replaced by the Mitchell in 1964. Prior to that it could be earned with the same number of achievements as the current Spaatz by adding up to three clasps. (Achievements 7,8 and 9) The training is basically the same as the Mitchell but included learning Morse code and earning Red Cross First Aid certification. Many who look at the training manuals CAP Manual 1 Book 1 and 2, say the training was more in depth and aimed at a higher age group.
Quote from: arajca on September 19, 2010, 09:38:41 PM
What were the requirements for the Cadet COP? What was the last authorized for award date? It's not in CAPR 39-3.
CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2 Page 29
QuoteCadet Awards
Frank Borman Falcon Award, Cadet Certificate of Proficiency or highest cadet award earned
Quote from: BradM on September 19, 2010, 02:50:43 AM
Or if that is out of the question, how about a CAP Air Medal that could go before the CAP Bronze Medal of Valor in order of precedence?
The idea of a CAP Air Achievement Medal was proposed several years ago. It was shot down in committee and has not resurfaced again since then. If I remember correctly the AF was not to keen on the idea.
After that the concept of the CAP Distinguished Flying Service Award was also presented and shot down.
The closest thing we have to that now is in the mix for the Uniform Committee to consider. It is the Air Patrol Award. It has wider criteria and would actually be applicable to more people.
Even if it were approved I sincerely doubt it would be approved to go before either of the MOV's. That has been in place since the late 50's and the committee would likely put it in a different place.
Quote from: bte on September 19, 2010, 11:02:15 PM
Quote from: arajca on September 19, 2010, 09:38:41 PM
What were the requirements for the Cadet COP? What was the last authorized for award date? It's not in CAPR 39-3.
CAPR 39-3 ATTACHMENT 2 Page 29
QuoteCadet Awards
Frank Borman Falcon Award, Cadet Certificate of Proficiency or highest cadet award earned
Fine. It's mentioned by name, however, unlike the Frank Borman Falcon Award, there is no criteria for having earned the CCOP.
It, unlike the Falcon Award, was an old program award, and the criteria are both buried in some historical archive, and and not germane to the current program.
Quote from: caphistorian on September 19, 2010, 11:24:44 PM
Quote from: BradM on September 19, 2010, 02:50:43 AM
Or if that is out of the question, how about a CAP Air Medal that could go before the CAP Bronze Medal of Valor in order of precedence?
The idea of a CAP Air Achievement Medal was proposed several years ago. It was shot down in committee and has not resurfaced again since then. If I remember correctly the AF was not to keen on the idea.
After that the concept of the CAP Distinguished Flying Service Award was also presented and shot down.
The closest thing we have to that now is in the mix for the Uniform Committee to consider. It is the Air Patrol Award. It has wider criteria and would actually be applicable to more people.
Even if it were approved I sincerely doubt it would be approved to go before either of the MOV's. That has been in place since the late 50's and the committee would likely put it in a different place.
After reading what you wrote, I think I mis-wrote on where I suggested the CAP Air medal would be in the order of precedence. I didnt mean before as in a higher precedence to the MOV medals but right after them between the Bronze MOV and the Distinguished Service award. Though an alternate place would be higher than the Commander's Commendation between the Meritorius Service and the Commander's Commendation.
My thinking about this ....is that we are focusing only on current programs. Of course all the old ribbons (that do not get specifically transistioned i.e. replaced by a new ribbon) will still be authorised for wear.
As for CAP members getting USAF or USAF civilian awards....that would be for a different thread.
Lets focus only on CAP awards for the purpose of this thread.
Tweaked a little more. Added transition information.
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