First off, eServices says I'm a C/CMSgt- so no need to congratulate me, Mitchell isn't official yet.
Okay, first request- I know somewhere there is a reg which tells how much blue must be around the most prominent edge of the white, or somesuch like that; what reg is this in? CAPM 39-1? I can find it if someone could refer to me to exact manual. Something like 1/4 inch of blue from the furthest edge of white, but I want to see the reg before I sew.
1/8 inch, found the bullet I was looking for.
Now, I've seen some ranks and insignias with excess cloth folded under to form this 1/8 inch of blue. I've also seen the cloth cut so that only that 1/8 inch of blue is left, period, and the whole shebang is then sewn on.
Which way is best, in your opinion?
Folded is the proper way.
Left unfolded they look terrible and will fray.
Definitely fold the excess blue material under. If you cut it to the exact size and sew it on, it'll shrink and fray when washed. Doesn't look too pretty, IMO.
Agreed. Folding under, pressing, then sewing will keep the edges clean. Cutting it down to 1/8" will greatly increase the chance of edge fraying.
I'm going to call this one unanimous and do as suggested.
See, wide range of experience, a new little tidbit with each subsequent post... This is what CAPTalk is really about. Not the arguments :D
Thanks for the help!
Now, about those shoulderboards...
>:D
I've sewed on velcro to my service coat- anyone think that too awful bad of an idea?
Also, for attaching the rank to the shoulderboards, I took a leaf out of C/Maj Temaat's book- well, nearly so.
First I worked the prongs off with a pair of pliers. Then I used a rasp/file to get rid of the nubs and make the entire backside of the rank flush.
Last, I used school glue to attach the rank to the board. After letting it dry for a few hours (overkill for school glue, I know) I pried the pip off with my fingernails to test the strength of this idea.
Conclusion: If I ever have that much pressure on the rank of my hard boards, there will be bigger problems than reapplying some school glue.
The only problem is I'll have to figure a way to remove the dried glue when I replace the ranks. And as C/Maj Temaat pointed out, I can't be promoted in my service coat- imagine the Sqd/CC and Wing/CC standing there with a bottle of Elmer's to *glue* on my tri-pip...
Otherwise, looks like a good way to avoid buying 3 sets of boards just because of promoting.
Quote from: DakRadz on July 29, 2010, 11:53:17 PM
I've sewed on velcro to my service coat- anyone think that too awful bad of an idea?
That's what I did, and I've had no problems with it at all.
Quote from: DakRadz on July 30, 2010, 12:05:59 AM
school glue
I did the same, but with wood glue, and it worked out quite well. It is also clear, so there's no white residue if a bit is smudged around.
Ah, you were the one who did wood glue. That thread was from a while back, and I knew there was someone who'd done that, but didn't care to search for it (again) since I remembered the technique this time. Would have given you an honorable mention ;D
Glad to know the velcro wasn't an issue- I foresee needing to possibly replace it- I still have 3+ years of cadet life. But regardless. Thanks for the advice! Much obliged
Oh, any safe way you know of to get the glue residue to come off? The school glue did dry clear, but seems to me that layering the glue 3 times wouldn't be good for keeping the rank attached to the board.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 29, 2010, 11:44:00 PM
Folded is the proper way. Left unfolded they look terrible and will fray.
If you are wondering how to keep them folded when you sew them on, use rubber cement. My singer 247 has probably sewn on a thousand patches as I used to sew them on in my original USAR unit. In fact after 20+ years of disuse I'm putting it back in operation, just now I need more than one color of thread.
EDIT: Dwight beat me to it, but I'd suggest the spray adhesive versus rubber cement. YMMV, and experiment if you want.
FYI, a *really* easy way to get some solid looking folded insignia:
Find some Elmer's water soluble spray adhesive (craft adhesive, I think). Spray the backside of the insignia with quick swipe, do one set of folds. I forget if its "wait a few seconds and then manipulate" or "do it immediately" to get the quick bond. Read the directions. I actually think you want the "repositionable" bond in case you get it wrong and need to readjust.
Throw your insignia under a stack of books or something to hold it while the adhesive sets up.
After a bit, pull it out, another shot of adhesive and fold the 2nd set of folds. Same as above. Let it setup. If you do it right, everything looks like a million bucks cuz the folds are precise and won't move at all when you manipulate the insignia.
Now, the next part is a little controversial, but when you're ready to sew on, do a quick pass on the back of the insignia with the adhesive, position on the collar and hold until firm, then off to the sewing machine and stitch 'em on.
I was always a "pin 'em and go" guy, but doing this is FAST and easy, and it looks great when you're done.
I prefer iron-on sizing to shape and place BDU insignia, but it's all the same idea.
Wash it once before you size and sew it! Otherwise it will pucker on your uniform when you wash it the first time and it looks bad.
Quote from: dogden on July 30, 2010, 02:55:36 AM
Wash it once before you size and sew it! Otherwise it will pucker on your uniform when you wash it the first time and it looks bad.
Or always wash your uniform in cold water (helps with color-fastness too) and hang to dry.
My uniforms are done in cold water, so that settles that :D The hang to dry tidbit is appreciated.
Cloth tapes don't shrink, but you'd still need to do that for insignia, regardless.
I have the shrunkeled uniform to prove you otherwise on the "cloth tapes don't shrink" assertion.
The edges started out flush with the edges of the pocket as well- now they are a quarter inch short on either side. Both the name and CAP tape are like this.
This happened prior to the cold water change; my second blouse is perfect. Also did the second blouse entirely by hand (all four patches authorized for new members- didn't skimp by not doing the wing patch), so I may be biased, but eh.
I just fold mine over and do a machine baste stitch. IMHO, better than glue.
As for the "cloth" tapes - they are embroidered on regular blue fabric, not the webbing that you see most places, and they do shrink a lot less. The one wash before sewing on usually is enough in the shrinkage department.
Quote from: SarDragon on July 30, 2010, 03:46:53 AM
I just fold mine over and do a machine baste stitch. IMHO, better than glue.
I was using rubber cement because SSSC (where the Army Reserve got office supplies back then, maybe now too) provided it for free, There are better adhesives out there now for that purpose. Rubber cement was not visible through subdued US Army insignia but on the bright colors CAP uses it may not work so well.
As for those shoulderboards, here's a helpful hint. This will only work if you're using a new-style officer's service jacket or an old-style one (you need the jacket to have epaulets on the shoulders). Find an un-needed or unserviceable pair of soft shouldermarks (cadet officer, senior member ones or even Air Force or Army epaulets, whatever - it doesn't really matter as long as the shouldermark can slide over your jacket's epaulet).
Hot glue or otherwise adhere the shouldermarks to the undersides of your cadet officer shoulderboards. Then you can slip your shoulderboards on to the jacket's epaulets securely and easily. No velcro, no precariously perched shoulderboards that fall off from time to time, and no modification needed to the jacket itself (leaving the epaulets clean for your future use or for the next cadet that inherits the jacket).
The other downside to cutting is when you go to sew on your perfectly-dimensioned rank, the thread will slip out and fray the edges so you are left with a rank that is impossible to sew on. Ruined one that way once, not even trying to cut that short but didn't leave enough for the fold-over.
Make sure you leave plenty of fabric - I like to have it so the edge folds under and reaches the other side.
Pylon- I like the method, sir, but I have a new-style enlisted due to the pricetag.
Once I'm in college I may purchase another in officer style and use that trick. Much appreciated!
Back to the cloth rank... Anyone have a clue why NHQ made the BDU cap 1/2 inch above the visor?
To me, it just looks... Bad. Like I threw it on there without consulting the regs.
Quote from: DakRadz on July 30, 2010, 12:05:59 AM
Also, for attaching the rank to the shoulderboards, I took a leaf out of C/Maj Temaat's book- well, nearly so.
First I worked the prongs off with a pair of pliers. Then I used a rasp/file to get rid of the nubs and make the entire backside of the rank flush.
Last, I used school glue to attach the rank to the board. After letting it dry for a few hours (overkill for school glue, I know) I pried the pip off with my fingernails to test the strength of this idea.
Conclusion: If I ever have that much pressure on the rank of my hard boards, there will be bigger problems than reapplying some school glue.
The only problem is I'll have to figure a way to remove the dried glue when I replace the ranks. And as C/Maj Temaat pointed out, I can't be promoted in my service coat- imagine the Sqd/CC and Wing/CC standing there with a bottle of Elmer's to *glue* on my tri-pip...
Otherwise, looks like a good way to avoid buying 3 sets of boards just because of promoting.
I use hot glue and a pair of wire cutters (no nail file...haven't thought of that)...haven't tried school or wood glue. Maybe that will work better and I won't have to redo it every so often when the seatbelt decides to see how far my rank can go. Well anyway I only have a few more months til I have a permanent rank on my shoulder so I will be getting a new set of shoulder boards around Thanksgiving (hopefully [getting the boards not the time frame]). Then I can test out my theories and figure out where the holes are now that I know they are there.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 06, 2010, 03:20:19 AM
Back to the cloth rank... Anyone have a clue why NHQ made the BDU cap 1/2 inch above the visor?
To me, it just looks... Bad. Like I threw it on there without consulting the regs.
Methinks someone at NHQ CAP cut-and-pasted the wear rules for the old OD ballcap without checking current wear regs in AFI 36-2903. The old cap had the grade placed 1/2" above the bill, IIRC.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 06, 2010, 03:20:19 AM
Back to the cloth rank... Anyone have a clue why NHQ made the BDU cap 1/2 inch above the visor? To me, it just looks... Bad. Like I threw it on there without consulting the regs.
Honestly? I always cheated my rank a little on the BDU cap, cuz the 1/2" looked bad. I lowered it a bit and it looked great and never a word was said. (then again: I was a Lt Col, so who is really going to be inspecting my uniform?<GRIN>)
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 06, 2010, 11:02:35 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on August 06, 2010, 03:20:19 AM
Back to the cloth rank... Anyone have a clue why NHQ made the BDU cap 1/2 inch above the visor?
To me, it just looks... Bad. Like I threw it on there without consulting the regs.
Methinks someone at NHQ CAP cut-and-pasted the wear rules for the old OD ballcap without checking current wear regs in AFI 36-2903. The old cap had the grade placed 1/2" above the bill, IIRC.
What?!?
Some
Person at NHQ would NEVER do that!!! ::)
Quote from: Mustang on August 06, 2010, 01:26:18 PMWhat?!? Some Person at NHQ would NEVER do that!!! ::)
;D
Oh yeah, the cloth patches will shrink. Especially the new style that have the diagonal weave. The old style that were webbed wouldn't shrink though. Yes, the way to get around that is washing it before you sew it on, but then you are still left with one other issue, most sewing thread shrinks also. I get around that by using a synthetic clear thread that looks a lot like fishing line. It doesnt shrink and you don't have to change colors when you go from sewing your nametapes and badges to sewing on your wing patch if yours is bordered with gold or any other color than ultramarine blue.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 18, 2010, 01:43:59 AM
Oh yeah, the cloth patches will shrink. Especially the new style that have the diagonal weave. The old style that were webbed wouldn't shrink though. Yes, the way to get around that is washing it before you sew it on, but then you are still left with one other issue, most sewing thread shrinks also. I get around that by using a synthetic clear thread that looks a lot like fishing line. It doesnt shrink and you don't have to change colors when you go from sewing your nametapes and badges to sewing on your wing patch if yours is bordered with gold or any other color than ultramarine blue.
I've always experienced the opposite. Webbed tapes shrunk and had to be prewashed, while the fabric strip tapes I have now still look perfect after many dozens of washings.
Depends I guess.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 18, 2010, 01:43:59 AM
I get around that by using a synthetic clear thread that looks a lot like fishing line. It doesnt shrink and you don't have to change colors when you go from sewing your nametapes and badges to sewing on your wing patch if yours is bordered with gold or any other color than ultramarine blue.
My wing patch is bordered white, tapes/rank ultramarine, gold on the National Ensign, and white again for squadron patch. I picked up some clear thread real quick after seeing the encampment packing list.
That clear thread really does look good too doesn't it? At least I think so.
Watch your iron temp when you use the clear thread.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 18, 2010, 02:29:35 AMWatch your iron temp when you use the clear thread.
LOL.. I can see this now.. "poink.. poink.. poink.." the thread popping out.
I use my iron on my patches, it does pretty good.
Quote from: a2capt on August 18, 2010, 02:57:13 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 18, 2010, 02:29:35 AMWatch your iron temp when you use the clear thread.
LOL.. I can see this now.. "poink.. poink.. poink.." the thread popping out.
That, good sir, is just evil. :o Imagine my horror if I accidentally did that.
I'm already continuously sewing and removing patches on and off to suit my needs (JROTC or CAP). >:( Especially when I'm told of an event less 24 hours beforehand and have the wrong program sewn on my blouse..
Quote from: DakRadz on August 18, 2010, 09:08:53 PM
I'm already continuously sewing and removing patches on and off to suit my needs (JROTC or CAP). >:( Especially when I'm told of an event less 24 hours beforehand and have the wrong program sewn on my blouse..
What?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 18, 2010, 10:28:30 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on August 18, 2010, 09:08:53 PM
I'm already continuously sewing and removing patches on and off to suit my needs (JROTC or CAP). >:( Especially when I'm told of an event less 24 hours beforehand and have the wrong program sewn on my blouse..
What?
Sorry, forgot to add the [/rant] ;D
A situation where I had taken my two BDU blouses and sewn CAP patches on them both (for encampment). One of those blouses was normally for JROTC.
I never got around to returning them to the configuration of having a set of CAP patches on one, JROTC patches on the other.
I was informed of an event which required me to rip off a bunch of patches and re-sew others on, within 24 hours. Hence my remark about being horrified and annoyed if my iron made
permanent patches "poink" (see above) :D
Anyway, I was ranting, but I hope that clears any confusion. Back to the regularly scheduled uniform thread.
I know that while you are in both JROTC and CAP you can have one uniform for both. In the 39-1 it states that you can have both patches on your shoulders one on one shoulder and the other on the other shoulder, but what it doesn't state is the reg on all the other patches?
Well sir, I could, but...
Having the patches of both on one blouse doesn't work as a cadet officer- I have sewn on rank for one, and pin on rank for JROTC.
Also, as you said, I have no clue what patch would go wear as far as nametapes and such.
We already have issues with such patches by others. I'm setting an example as the C/CC- I may be in another program, but I'm not mixing and matching even if authorized. It looks horribly non-uniform.
I think that reg is more for cadet enlisted who happen to be in JROTC- a cadet officer or C/SNCO in JROTC may not want to spend lots of money if they're unsure if CAP will work out.
By the time the Mitchell is earned, you can usually find a way to be separate.
Back on topic, I'm going to try to get the sewing done this weekend- rank and an amazing looking but PITA-shaped squadron patch which we just received :D >:(
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 01:05:13 AM
I know that while you are in both JROTC and CAP you can have one uniform for both. In the 39-1 it states that you can have both patches on your shoulders one on one shoulder and the other on the other shoulder, but what it doesn't state is the reg on all the other patches?
That no longer applies since patches were removed from the blue uniforms.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 19, 2010, 01:55:26 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 01:05:13 AM
I know that while you are in both JROTC and CAP you can have one uniform for both. In the 39-1 it states that you can have both patches on your shoulders one on one shoulder and the other on the other shoulder, but what it doesn't state is the reg on all the other patches?
That no longer applies since patches were removed from the blue uniforms.
True sir, for blues I could simply wear my JROTC items with JROTC patch and CAP pin ons.
The new 52-16 (admittedly still in draft form) is slightly more ambiguous, and does not limit the sharing to blues. I believe this is the case- it's late, and I'll follow up with a reg cite if no one else does..
Quote from: DakRadz on August 19, 2010, 03:40:46 AMTrue sir, for blues I could simply wear my JROTC items with JROTC patch and CAP pin ons.
The new 52-16 (admittedly still in draft form) is slightly more ambiguous, and does not limit the sharing to blues. I believe this is the case- it's late, and I'll follow up with a reg cite if no one else does..
BDUs are configured differently between CAP and AFJROTC. The AFJROTC patch would not be an authorized one on a CAP BDU.
As to blues, not sure if wearing an AFJROTC shirt (or service dress jacket) with CAP accoutrements would be kosher, or appropriate. I wouldn't advise it, for the simple reason that we don't wear patches on blues anymore. It wouldn't look right, and even if legal, would make you stand out. The negative attention would probably not be worth the trouble.
Quote from: DakRadz on August 19, 2010, 01:28:03 AM
Well sir, I could, but...
Snip
I'm setting an example as the C/CC- I may be in another program, but I'm not mixing and matching even if authorized. It looks horribly non-uniform.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 19, 2010, 05:08:01 AM
BDUs are configured differently between CAP and AFJROTC. The AFJROTC patch would not be an authorized one on a CAP BDU.
As to blues, not sure if wearing an AFJROTC shirt (or service dress jacket) with CAP accoutrements would be kosher, or appropriate. I wouldn't advise it, for the simple reason that we don't wear patches on blues anymore. It wouldn't look right, and even if legal, would make you stand out. The negative attention would probably not be worth the trouble.
I understand that part sir.
What I meant is that CAP Patches can go on the AFJROTC uniform- thus the cadet doesn't have to buy entirely new, identical to the free one they already have.
Quote from: CAPR 52-16 DRAFT(2) Cadets enrolled in CAP and AFJROTC who use the same uniform for both programs may
wear the CAP wing patch on the right shoulder and the AFJROTC patch on the left shoulder (for those
uniforms that require a wing patch). See CAPM 39-1 for details. Other JROTC patches are not authorized.
Being that service uniforms do not require a wing patch, and BDUs do (well, it's optional) this makes me think that this is a reference to any shared uniform. The current 52-16 simply says any uniform WILL have the wing patch (we still wore blues wing patches when that one was written). CAPM 39-1 simply addresses the wing patch on blues- was required, but no longer is- an update was placed in the reg so that you can still wear CAP insignia with an AFJROTC patch on service uniforms.
Now, with all that said, I would not do this now. It may be kosher legally, but I have so , so I would only be showing off that I'm in JROTC if I shared unis.
If I had joined while at the Air Force JROTC unit, I very well might have worn those uniforms until I could afford/knew I'd stick around long enough to use them.
If I managed to recruit my JROTC cadets to come to CAP, I would allow a 2-month grace period (after actually joining and receiving CAPID#) in which they could decide if they could remain a member and/or wanted to, as some may not like CAP as much and others would be affected by the distance (anywhere from 10-35 miles from my county to my meeting place, with most on the far end of that spectrum).
They really need to put out a whole new 39-1. It is confusing especially to new members and most definitely to members who are coming back after a few years of active duty. In the Army (up until they adopted the new blues) you still wear your unit patch on the service jacket sleeve. I came back after almost six years and read the 39-1 and the sheet that comes in the binder, both state that you still wear the Wing patch on your shoulder. So I did. Come to find that it isn't kosher, we tried taking it off... well i always use a tight double stitch when I sew patches, so we tore the sleeve and my jacket was rendered unserviceable. Not saying that would happen to everyone, but it is disheartening when it does.
Someone just needs to sit down update the manual (as well as the photographs). So no one gets confused. I think that would also take some stress off of those cadets who are dual CAP JROTC.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 05:22:00 PMSomeone just needs to sit down update the manual (as well as the photographs). So no one gets confused.
I'll second that one, and follow it up with an "Oh, yeah!"
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 05:22:00 PMI think that would also take some stress off of those cadets who are dual CAP JROTC.
It would take stress off everyone, which is why it needs to be done.
However, a new pub won't mean anything if people don't
read it. The latest Volunteer magazine has one PR type photo with a glaring uniform mistake. It's one of those things where the insignia is worn one way on one uniform; but in the same place on another, it's incorrect. Publications can't be complied with if they aren't read in the first place.
QUOTE:
However, a new pub won't mean anything if people don't read it. The latest Volunteer magazine has one PR type photo with a glaring uniform mistake. It's one of those things where the insignia is worn one way on one uniform; but in the same place on another, it's incorrect. Publications can't be complied with if they aren't read in the first place.
/QUOTE
There needs to be a way to make sure that at least the CC of each squadron knows when a change is made. I know they put out memorandums a lot, but they are rarely known widely. Part of what I do for my squadron is to regularly look up and try to find any changes to memorandum that come out otherwise no one will know. Even still I miss quite a few and some are just impossible to find because they aren't actually published published, they are just written up and filed. Maybe a news letter from NHQ to wing to group to squadron would be nice.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 06:07:03 PMThere needs to be a way to make sure that at least the CC of each squadron knows when a change is made. I know they put out memorandums a lot, but they are rarely known widely. Part of what I do for my squadron is to regularly look up and try to find any changes to memorandum that come out otherwise no one will know. Even still I miss quite a few and some are just impossible to find because they aren't actually published published, they are just written up and filed. Maybe a news letter from NHQ to wing to group to squadron would be nice.
Good process to look things up regularly. I don't see why the Volunteer can't have something on publication changes. Maybe an RSS feed could be implemented, or emails sent when there are changes.
By the way, you can use the quote button, and delete anything you're not addressing. The quote setup lets everyone know who's post you're addressing.
Thank you... I didn't even see the quote button there ;D
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 07:30:29 PM
Thank you... I didn't even see the quote button there ;D
It's awesome, ain't it?
If you do want to quote someone then surround the word quote and /quote with [XXXXX] and [/XXXXX]
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 07:30:29 PM
Thank you... I didn't even see the quote button there ;D
No problem.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on August 19, 2010, 06:07:03 PM
There needs to be a way to make sure that at least the CC of each squadron knows when a change is made. I know they put out memorandums a lot, but they are rarely known widely. Part of what I do for my squadron is to regularly look up and try to find any changes to memorandum that come out otherwise no one will know. Even still I miss quite a few and some are just impossible to find because they aren't actually published published, they are just written up and filed. Maybe a news letter from NHQ to wing to group to squadron would be nice.
I encourage my members to check with me before they order any uniform items. If I don't happen to know the answer, we can look through 39-1 and the ICL's together. This job is better suited for the deputy commander, rather than squadron commander.
This has saved some headaches (and a few bucks) in the past couple of years. I started doing this after Vanguard sold a new member half CSU / half aviator shirt uniform items. He didn't know any better, and just called them and asked for a uniform!
As to keeping up with memos and regulation changes, that's what the admin officer is for. In fact, it's one of the few duties still relevant these days.