CAP Talk

Split from the soon to be locked NESA photo thread.

Quote from: PHall on July 28, 2010, 05:39:26 PM

Quote from: DakRadz on July 28, 2010, 03:20:29 PM
Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

If the Base Commander allows CAP to wear the beret, then it's legal.

How do you figure?

A random base CC who is not also a CAP member (or maybe CAP-USAF), has no authority over CAP members other than behavior and conduct while on their base.  They certainly have no authority to grant the wear of a uniform item.

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

I had a member claim his USAF ballcap...

(http://www.liberty-flag.com/bmz_cache/c/cbe4a4e0322c3ee3b1dd0c35d1343fdf.image.120x76.png)

...was authorized for wear with the BDUs because the CAP-USAF liaison said it was.

Quote from: N Harmon on July 28, 2010, 06:40:59 PM
I had a member claim his USAF ballcap...

(http://www.liberty-flag.com/bmz_cache/c/cbe4a4e0322c3ee3b1dd0c35d1343fdf.image.120x76.png)

...was authorized for wear with the BDUs because the CAP-USAF liaison said it was.

Amaizing how even the "professionals" get it wrong.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 28, 2010, 06:20:50 PM
I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot. 

I'll go ahead and steal Eclipse's thunder:

Cite please.

Here we have a fine line.  On one hand you want to adhere to CAP "black-and-white" guidelines in print and on the other hand you have to adhere to local policies.  I ran into this in a uniform discussion at Civil Air Portal once...someone pointed to a clip on badge (required on the flight line and by some schools) citing it as a "blatant disregard for regulations" with the usual "if-this-guy- can't-follow-uniform-regulations-what-else-is he-disregarding" nonsense argument.

There are times...usually at airports and other secure places, like schools and the like, where you need to add the badges or you cannot enter.  Commonsense dictates a realistic approach to these things.  If not, using an oxygen mask on an aircraft or ambulance while in uniform would violatr uniform policy and you would be obligied to die for the uniform regulations.

There are some times when issues of this nature create a precarious situation.  Suppose you do meet at a base and its commander mandates some sort of additional uniform items?  Two issues at play...1) your unit is a guest on a FEDERAL INSTALLATION and obligied to comply 2) the BASE COMMANDER is in full charge of the facility as per militay protocol and thus, you are obliged to comply.

Next issue is...why is the base commander mandating beret wear?  It seems more likely that someone sought out this permission from the commander as opposed to it being mandated out of the blue.  I mean, why would a Base Commander make such a demand of a CAP Unit?  It was my understanding that the wear of berets in the USAF denoted security personal or some other specialty.  Why would the USAF Auxiliary wear one if that was the case.

Lastly, WORD of MOUTH is no substitute for written documenation...added to that, WING LOs, Wing Commanders, Region Commander and even the highest levels do not tha "Papal Mandate" authority to create verbal CAP Policy.

No cite required, it's called "command authority"*--which means a tad more in the RealMilitary™ than it does in CAP, where even a wing commander can't do much without region, national/NHQ and/or CAP-USAF approval.

Quote*Command authority is the authority leaders have over their troops by virtue of rank or assignment. Command authority originates with the President and may be supplemented by law or regulation.

But, since you asked:

Quote
COMMAND AUTHORITY OVER CIVILIANS

-   The commander has authority over civilian employees on base
--      The commander acts as the employer of civilian employees
--      The commander can give promotions and bonuses, as well as impose sanctions
--      The AFI 36 series defines this relationship

-   The commander has less authority over nonemployee civilians on base
--      As "mayor" of the base, the installation commander has authority to maintain order and discipline, and to protect federal resources
--      As a practical matter, this authority may be limited to detaining individuals for civilian law enforcement officials and barring them from the installation
--      The installation commander may bar an individual from the base for misconduct but must follow certain procedural requirements

-    The commander has almost no authority over civilians off base.

References:  AFI 51-604, Appointment To and Assumption of Command, 1 October 2000

Quote from: Mustang on July 29, 2010, 05:18:51 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 28, 2010, 06:20:50 PM
I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

I'm not going to argue the limits of command authority and whatnot, though that cite is the correct one- obviously open to interpretation. That's all above my paygrade, have fun.

Now, obviously no one cares of uniform regs in an emergency, or at least not whether your patch is authorized or not. Some things are necessary, such as wearing badges on the flightline or when in a restricted area- things which prevent a uniformed CAP member from being thrown in jail/detained/(insert negative response to non-identified personnel here), or other similar situations.

I will admit that I tried to claim word of mouth as fact- our C/Maj at encampment was describing the benefits of NBB (during an NCSA brief; he was the NBB grad); obviously he focused on the training, GTM3, etc., but everyone wants to know about the beret. He said he'd be wearing his if not for two things:
1) At encampment, so the whole uniformity deal
2) Said that on a military base, he couldn't wear the beret due to confusion with being mistaken for USAF SF. No idea who told him that, etc., but that's what I heard. Shouldn't have tried using it as fact, but there you have it.

Here we go around the uniform ride.  8)

Quote from: lordmonar on July 29, 2010, 03:04:31 PM

Quote from: Mustang on July 29, 2010, 05:18:51 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 28, 2010, 06:20:50 PM
I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

Or permit / require the wear of something otherwise prohibited or restricted by our regulations.

Quote from: DakRadz on July 29, 2010, 03:08:18 PM
I'm not going to argue the limits of command authority and whatnot, though that cite is the correct one- obviously open to interpretation. That's all above my paygrade, have fun.

Now, obviously no one cares of uniform regs in an emergency, or at least not whether your patch is authorized or not. Some things are necessary, such as wearing badges on the flightline or when in a restricted area- things which prevent a uniformed CAP member from being thrown in jail/detained/(insert negative response to non-identified personnel here), or other similar situations.

I will admit that I tried to claim word of mouth as fact- our C/Maj at encampment was describing the benefits of NBB (during an NCSA brief; he was the NBB grad); obviously he focused on the training, GTM3, etc., but everyone wants to know about the beret. He said he'd be wearing his if not for two things:
1) At encampment, so the whole uniformity deal
2) Said that on a military base, he couldn't wear the beret due to confusion with being mistaken for USAF SF. No idea who told him that, etc., but that's what I heard. Shouldn't have tried using it as fact, but there you have it.

Here we go around the uniform ride.  8)

(3) The Blue Beret can only be worn at the activity

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 29, 2010, 04:50:42 PM

Quote from: DakRadz on July 29, 2010, 03:08:18 PM
I'm not going to argue the limits of command authority and whatnot, though that cite is the correct one- obviously open to interpretation. That's all above my paygrade, have fun.

Now, obviously no one cares of uniform regs in an emergency, or at least not whether your patch is authorized or not. Some things are necessary, such as wearing badges on the flightline or when in a restricted area- things which prevent a uniformed CAP member from being thrown in jail/detained/(insert negative response to non-identified personnel here), or other similar situations.

I will admit that I tried to claim word of mouth as fact- our C/Maj at encampment was describing the benefits of NBB (during an NCSA brief; he was the NBB grad); obviously he focused on the training, GTM3, etc., but everyone wants to know about the beret. He said he'd be wearing his if not for two things:
1) At encampment, so the whole uniformity deal
2) Said that on a military base, he couldn't wear the beret due to confusion with being mistaken for USAF SF. No idea who told him that, etc., but that's what I heard. Shouldn't have tried using it as fact, but there you have it.

Here we go around the uniform ride.  8)

(3) The Blue Beret can only be worn at the activity

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1851&p_created=1158847849

I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 04:59:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

Couldn't have said it better myself!                   

Last para of the motion to approve wear of the Blue Beret with BDUs:

QuoteANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

National Hqs has not implemented this change.

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1851&p_created=1158847849

The above wasn't incorporated into CAPM 39-1 and is not listed in any ICL's posted since it was issued. So the following still applies.

CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005 13
Table 1-3. Additional Items That May Be Authorized by the Wing/Region Commander
L
I
N
E Item Information
4 Berets Only blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear. Berets provided
at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.

All of the above, plus:

Unless it is an unlawful order, comply with it; if there is that much contention, comply and at the same time seek guidance/advice from chain of command, CAP-USAF, etc.

We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 29, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times, will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Sometimes a dose of common sense has to prevail.

a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 05:36:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 29, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times,

Of course not, and I don't know why this was injected into the conversation - access and safety items are not what we are discussing here...

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 05:36:20 PM
will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Prohibiting a uniform item is not the same as authorizing something we can't normally wear.  One service's commander can't mandate changing another service's uniform specifications with due process and a valid reason, especially in a non-combat area.  Further, unless that commander is also going to issue those blues, they aren't going to get very far.

That would far exceed their authority of base safety and tenancy.

Th

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 05:36:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 29, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times, will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Sometimes a dose of common sense has to prevail.

At this point, you go talk to the base CC to find out why he hates you...

If the problem is with an incorrect perception, or with a member lower in position than the Sqd/CC, then everything could be easily handled by a sensible Sqd/CC and/or squadron staff.
If the Sqd/CC is the problem- that's certainly a problem.

Any base CC who arbitrarily decides to torture CAP for no reason is a bit off the rocker...

I know these are hypotheticals, but why make more out of it? Work with that CC, don't tick off the "mayor" intentionally, unless you want to be kicked out.

Case in point at Camp Attlerbury, it is a camp directive that reflective belts will be work between the hours of 1800 and 0700. NESA students and staff who fail to wear a belt, can and have been cited by the MP's for failure to comply.

Quote from: arajca on July 29, 2010, 05:45:52 PM
a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

My understanding (admittedly I have no direct cite...) is that the Base Commander can certainly REQUEST that CAP (or any other civilians) do what he says.  If you REFUSE, then he can simply not allow you on the base at all.

So, if the Base Commander says (this seems more likely...) CAP members will NOT wear Blues Uniforms on the Base, then you have the choice to either wear something else, or not go on the base.

So, he cannot require you to do something that contravenes your organization's regs, but he can certainly keep you off his Base if you don't do what he says.

Of course, he still answers to his superiors, so when the SecAF calls him up and says "why have you banned CAP member's from your base?" he might be pressured to relent.  No one is immune to pressure from above.


I'd like some more direct cite of these powers of a U.S. Military Base Commander if someone has them.  Even if they prove my understanding is incorrect.


Thom

Quote from: Thom on July 29, 2010, 06:25:28 PM
So, if the Base Commander says (this seems more likely...) CAP members will NOT wear Blues Uniforms on the Base, then you have the choice to either wear something else, or not go on the base.

I used mandating blues on Mondays as a likely option because of the Air Force-wide policy of wearing blues on Mondays (with obvious and logical exceptions -- like people working in the maintenance shop or flying that day).  Everybody else on base wears blues on Mondays.  Therefore, it could be a logical request for a base commander to ask CAP personnel to also comply.  And I don't think it'd be an unreasonable one.

Would our regs still say we could wear BDUs or the Blazer Combo or whatever?   Yep, technically by the regs, we'd have that option.   But as some people pointed out above, even if the local installation commander doesn't have that authority, are you really going to push those limits because "you're right" ad have to always prove that you're right?

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 05:36:20 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 29, 2010, 05:33:36 PM
We're not discussing whether the beret, or anything else, specifically, is authorized.  Leave that for the 15 other threads on this.

We're discussing PHall's assertion that a base commander can mandate / authorize / prohibit a given item, especially one which is otherwise not authorized.

So what you're saying is that if a base commander said "All CAP personnel on my base will wear an ID badge clipped to the BDU or blues pocket, a black baseball cap, and a blue reflective belt at all times, will only wear blues on Mondays, and will not wear flight suits" that they a) they don't actually have the authority to do that, and b) that you would honestly choose to flaunt the base commander's authority and not comply because of your personal interpretation of his or her authority and CAP regs?

Sometimes a dose of common sense has to prevail.

Mike there are two sides to this story.

One....it his base and he can throw us off anytime he wants to.....end of story.
Two....that is the extent of his authority over us....again...end of story.

Reality lies somewhere in between.

Of course we will want to follow his expectations as good neighbors and guests on his base.  We will want to work with him to make sure his desires meet up with CAP regulations.

If we cannot come up with a good working compromise then bottom line....we will have to leave the base.

Having said that....I think that it is just one of those myths that get circulated around from time to time.
Our regs specifally state no flight suits while on military transport.  This sometimes gets distorted to no flight suits at all on base.
USAF tradition says that officers don't wear ribbons on their blues shirts...this gets distroted to the "USAF will yell at us if a CAP officer wears ribbons"! (I had someone actually tell me this once).

As far as I know....I have never heard from a reliable source that any base commander has ever banned flight suits or berets on base.

If this was really a problem then I am sure that CAP-USAF would pull their approval for us to wear berets at all or mandate that we wear some other color.

I can see a lot of confusion when it comes to CAP unit being on base.  Let's take florecent belts for instance.  Most USAF bases mandates that all military personnel have to wear a reflective belt when in uniform during periods of darkness.  Cadet Timmy is walking from the gate to the meeting place in the dark in his BDUs it would not be unheard of if someone were to ask him (yell at him) where his belt was.

So....again it would be 100% okay by me if the local squadron mandated the use of belts on base in CAP uniforms.

Not in the regs....not allowed by the regs....but it is simple and easy way to make nice with the base and keep our members from getting yelled at by good intentioned but mis-informed military personnel.

This does not have to be a pissing contest...and I don't really think that it is.....I just think that it is mostly a military myth.

Mike - this would clearly be a case where the State Director would have to get involved - the USAF can mandate anything they want for their people, they also issue uniforms and pay clothing allowances, not so for CAP, where only a percentage of the membership even owns blues.

It would simply not be reasonable for a base CC to do this, however....

Its not even part of the conversation, since that's not what we're talking about here - we're talking about a base CC mandating a part of the uniform that we're not even authorized to wear.

What's next?  A base CC directing that we must wear metal insignia on our whites?  Subdued on BDUs?

How about a base CC who decides CAP people should be in ABU's?

We welcome those base CCs into our membership with full rank and rejoice at their amazing thought process.

;)

I'm betting there is a major myth at the heart of this thread as I can't see any situation where any base commander would order CAP members to wear a beret.  If anything, the opposite is much more likely. 

And, as has been said, CAP members can only go so far to comply with their requirements before we'll have to politely tell them that we're going to have to move out.  The safety gear would be a non-issue as it would not be an unreasonable request and could easily be implemented through a wing supplement or squadron instruction.  Definetely within the scope allowed. 

Quote from: lordmonar on July 29, 2010, 03:04:31 PM

Quote from: Mustang on July 29, 2010, 05:18:51 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 28, 2010, 06:20:50 PM
I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

Fine, he CAN make it a condition for entry.  Wanna argue semantics some more?

I'm not even sure if that is the topic at hand.  Or rather going wildly into hypothetical situations.

The question is, can a base commander authorize something to be worn that is generally not authorized for CAP members to wear.

Excluding when it comes to safety (or other practical reasons). For example a orange hat isn't authorized for X uniform, but if the base commander says you have to wear an orange hat for safety, I'm not going to argue with it.

The topic on the other hand is like this:

For example, CAP does not authorize the boonie hat to be worn with BDUs.  Lets say the base commander loves boonie hats and says "Ok you can wear the boonie hat with the BDU".  So it's ok for him to do so?  I guess that's at the base of the question.  I'm leaning towards no.

Quote from: Mustang on July 30, 2010, 01:04:44 AM
Fine, he CAN make it a condition for entry.  Wanna argue semantics some more?

This isn't "semantics" - base commanders have any number of "tenants" both civilian and military, and those tenants have their own
protocols and regulations.  A base CC can't simply give a blanket order to some other service and expect it to be carried out carte-blanche, especially when that order countermands an order from the service's actual chain of command.

Would you have some expectation that Navy Seamen assigned to an air base would start wearing berets with their cracker jacks just because a USAF base commander wanted them to?

That's not how it works.

If they were assigned to an air base, they could very well be Airmen ;)

And Seamen might do it, left to their own devices. That's what NCOs and officers are for  ;D

Really though, I agree with what spacecommand and Eclipse said on the authorization part. Command authority only goes so far.

Safety conditions/requirements seem to have drawn the consensus that no one would argue, within reason.

Quote from: Mustang on July 30, 2010, 01:04:44 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 29, 2010, 03:04:31 PM

Quote from: Mustang on July 29, 2010, 05:18:51 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on July 28, 2010, 06:20:50 PM
I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Nope. The base CC can ban it on the spot.

No.

The base commander can ban CAP from the base.....but he can't make us stop wearing a hat.

Fine, he CAN make it a condition for entry.  Wanna argue semantics some more?

Semantics are important.....knowing what your authority is and how to properly use it is one of the most important skills a leader needs to know.

Following that following the legal and reglatory procedures is also very important.

It also changes the way a local base commander approches a particular problem....if Col Xray at Boondoc AFB has a problem with CAP wearing berets....he needs to know that simply saying "no berets" is not the right way of doing things.

This all being academic...as I can't think of any base commander doing such a thing....it is imporatant to understand how the process works.

Quote from: spacecommand on July 30, 2010, 01:25:48 AM
I'm not even sure if that is the topic at hand.  Or rather going wildly into hypothetical situations.

The question is, can a base commander authorize something to be worn that is generally not authorized for CAP members to wear.

On the basic level....he can't authorize anything.  He can set policy for his base and WE can go through our chain to get the authorisation.   It is about the chain of command. 

QuoteExcluding when it comes to safety (or other practical reasons). For example a orange hat isn't authorized for X uniform, but if the base commander says you have to wear an orange hat for safety, I'm not going to argue with it.

The topic on the other hand is like this:

For example, CAP does not authorize the boonie hat to be worn with BDUs.  Lets say the base commander loves boonie hats and says "Ok you can wear the boonie hat with the BDU".  So it's ok for him to do so?  I guess that's at the base of the question.  I'm leaning towards no.

The basic answere is still no....the base commander has no authority to do so.....any more then he could authorise on his own authority to force or allow Army personnel to wear ABU's.  He could suggest it to the Army's chain of command and they would authorise or forbid it.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 30, 2010, 03:33:48 AM

Quote from: spacecommand on July 30, 2010, 01:25:48 AM
I'm not even sure if that is the topic at hand.  Or rather going wildly into hypothetical situations.

The question is, can a base commander authorize something to be worn that is generally not authorized for CAP members to wear.

On the basic level....he can't authorize anything.  He can set policy for his base and WE can go through our chain to get the authorisation.   It is about the chain of command. 

QuoteExcluding when it comes to safety (or other practical reasons). For example a orange hat isn't authorized for X uniform, but if the base commander says you have to wear an orange hat for safety, I'm not going to argue with it.

The topic on the other hand is like this:

For example, CAP does not authorize the boonie hat to be worn with BDUs.  Lets say the base commander loves boonie hats and says "Ok you can wear the boonie hat with the BDU".  So it's ok for him to do so?  I guess that's at the base of the question.  I'm leaning towards no.

The basic answere is still no....the base commander has no authority to do so.....any more then he could authorise on his own authority to force or allow Army personnel to wear ABU's.  He could suggest it to the Army's chain of command and they would authorise or forbid it.

Pat, bottom line is that CAP is on his base at his pleasure. CAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

The Base Commander does not have the authority to allow CAP or other service members to wear uniforms that do not meet the standards of their own service.  The Base Commander does have the authority to mandate the wear of a required CAP uniform (the CAP basic uniform that is required of all senior members - pick your version) to conform with something like Blues Monday.  If you really feel like arguing, then you can join some of the other members of this board who complain about having to submit requests to visit the base 30 days in advance and must be on a access roster to get onto the base.

Quote from: DakRadz on July 30, 2010, 02:14:59 AM
If they were assigned to an air base, they could very well be Airmen ;)

That doesn't even make sense - but hey, it does raise your posting count.

Quote from: DakRadz on July 30, 2010, 02:14:59 AM
If they were assigned to an air base, they could very well be Airmen ;)

And Seamen might do it, left to their own devices. That's what NCOs and officers are for  ;D

Really though, I agree with what spacecommand and Eclipse said on the authorization part. Command authority only goes so far.

Safety conditions/requirements seem to have drawn the consensus that no one would argue, within reason.

Back in your box, fella. Your NJROTC experience absolutely fails you this time. Don't quit your day job hoping to be a comedian.

As a Navy dude that spent three years as a tenant on an Air Base, I can tell you that the base commander had very little say in what the Navy folks did, other than the regular health and safety stuff that covered everybody on the base.

That was not my intention at all, sir. I've advised cadets on multiple occasions that posting to raise your count is idiotic and will be dealt with by a Mod or Admin.

Navy Seamen (E-1 to E-3) are not always referred to as Seamen:
There are, that I know of,
Seamen (obviously)
Firemen
Airmen
Constructionmen
I know these are actual rates. Wiki says Hospitalmen are also a variation, but you can take Wiki's word at your own choosing.
The title corresponds with what they've been assigned to.

I was simply pointing out that if assigned to an air base, the Seamen could be Airmen; not necessarily, but seems the chances would be greater in that situation. My apologies if the Navy humor was lost in translation.

^If you read the above paragraph, does the NJROTC still fail me?
(I was kidding about what Seamen might do when left to their own devices, don't hang me for that).

Also, I wouldn't mind if MIKE took the time to review every post I've ever made and reduced my count on the "fluff" ones (I'd be flattered :)). I'm certain there are a few of those, I just try to avoid that now.

Now back to your originally scheduled Uniform Debate.
~~~~~~~~~~

It may sound like I'm repeating what lordmonar said, but I did make a similar point before-
Any base CC who tries to enact ridiculous rules upon CAP doesn't like someone or something to begin with. No base CC is going to up and decide CAP wears Mickey Mouse ears after 1900 everyday they meet.

If these problems ever arise, go through proper CAP channels- I'm sure they'll sort out the extents of a base CC's power and explain the ruling to you.

If a base CC wants CAP wearing UA ball caps, go talk to him/her and explain the deal. Given the amount of service this individual will obviously have, regs and red tape should not be a big shocker. And a safety issue could easily be resolved on the CAP side if the base CC is involved.

Taken to PM. This thread has enough problems without having OT distractions.

Quote from: PHall on July 30, 2010, 03:54:25 AMCAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

Which had nothing to do with uniforms, and everything to do with threat evaluation and a misunderstanding of who we are.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2010, 05:01:51 AM

Quote from: PHall on July 30, 2010, 03:54:25 AMCAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

Which had nothing to do with uniforms, and everything to do with threat evaluation and a misunderstanding of who we are.

I also don't think it was universal. I don't remember Hanscom complaining about not being able to get on base, but that might have to do with the local squadrons up here helping so much with the 9/11 response. I do remember some crazy security procedures makings things difficult for awhile, but those were understandable and we worked through them.

Quote from: PHall on July 30, 2010, 03:54:25 AMPat, bottom line is that CAP is on his base at his pleasure. CAP has been banned from bases before.
Anybody remember what happened right after 9/11?  CAP units that had met on AF Bases for years were not allowed on base for several weeks.

No one disputes that.....No one disputes that IF a base commander got a hair up his buttocks about berets, flight suits, bdu or CAP is just a posers and wanna be he could make all sort of unreasonable demands and force us off base.

But....he that is as far as he can go.

He can't authorised or deauthorise anything with our uniforms.  He can only ban us from base.

And to be absolutely clear about 9/11....CAP was not banned.....ALL non essential civilan guests were banned from base, CAP was not singled out.

I suspect a better wording for the original quoted post would have been: "If the Base Commander allows CAP [members] to wear the beret when CAP regulations say that they can, then it's legal."

How that mutated into an argument over what would happen in a highly improbable hypothetical situation is beyond me.

Cliffnotes:
* The base commander can tell you not to wear a beret on his base. If you don't like it, you don't come on base.
* The base commander cannot tell you that you must wear a beret on his base, or supersede CAP's regulations. And that's not going to happen anyway, so I don't know why it's being argued.

Quote from: Who_knows? on July 29, 2010, 06:06:30 PM
Case in point at Camp Attlerbury, it is a camp directive that reflective belts will be work between the hours of 1800 and 0700. NESA students and staff who fail to wear a belt, can and have been cited by the MP's for failure to comply.

On a commanders action citation

I remember back in my days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink that whenever we were at the former NTC Orlando for activities we could not wear CAC 'deodorant strings' - ahem, shoulder cords - while on base, especially the red ones, since that was the badge of office for Navy recruit training CPOs.

I don't see where all the confusion comes from.  Seems pretty clear:


1. The Base Commander can certainly say that you must or can not do whatever - be it wear/not wear a given (article of a) uniform, access a certain facility, eat at the O-Club, etc.   However:

2. If the Base Commander insists that you do something contrary to regulations, you point that out, going through the appropriate liaison.

3. If the Base Commander still requires you to do something contrary to regulations, you don't do whatever activity requires it. 


If the Commander requires you to wear an orange hat/boonie hat/etc to enter the base, and refuses to reconsider, then you don't go on the base, plain and simple.   However, if the Commander bans blue BDUs, then you must wear a uniform that is approved, or again, you don't go.    Such issues should be resolved by the liaison officer. 

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 30, 2010, 01:51:20 PM
I remember back in my days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink that whenever we were at the former NTC Orlando for activities we could not wear CAC 'deodorant strings' - ahem, shoulder cords - while on base, especially the red ones, since that was the badge of office for Navy recruit training CPOs.

My first unit met at Great Lakes, on the NTC side. Even at 14, with an impressive 9-10 ribbons, and a funky uniform, the newly trained seamen would snap a salute. I can't even image what would happen to them if they saw the red cords...

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 30, 2010, 01:51:20 PM
I remember back in my days when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a cadink that whenever we were at the former NTC Orlando for activities we could not wear CAC 'deodorant strings' - ahem, shoulder cords - while on base, especially the red ones, since that was the badge of office for Navy recruit training CPOs.

We've gone back and forth on that for years, and allowed them this year only for graduation.

Its an interesting point of conversation, but not necessarily a valid reason not to wear it.  Colors, cords, badges, pins, ribbons, etc., mean something different in every service  - somehow the seven uniformed services are able to get through the day with few people mistaking who their commander is, accidently saluting someone inappropriately, or relinquishing command to the base Fire Captain (wearing metal tracks) - millions of service members all over the world - but the Powers-that-be^® have come to believe that injecting a few thousand CAP members into that mix generates chaos on a biblical scale.

I acknowledge that some of that is due to bad actors in the CAP ranks, but one would like to believe that the most amazing, highly-trained, proficient military in the history of the planet could work things out locally and directly when people act like goobers, without throwing the whole deal under the bus.

I don't say this often.....well said Eclipse!  :clap:

I do not understand this thread.  In Table 1-1 of CAPM 39-1 it states:

Quotevisiting military installations. Members will make every effort to
comply with local installation uniform policy. If policy is not
known, the CAP-USAF state director or the installation's public
affairs office may be contacted for guidance.

THEN you have this found in AFI 10-2701

Quote1.5. Actions on Military Installations. When on military Installations or other government facilities,
CAP personnel will adhere to the regulations and policies of the Installation or facility. Installation or
facility commanders may remove or bar entry of individual CAP members in accordance with established
procedures.

So, it seems clear that the Officer commanding a Military Installation of any kind has the authority to dictate what will and will not be worn by CAP members. 

If the Colonel Commanding an Air Force Station says "All personnel must now wear a beret".....well, as a CAP member we have to wear a beret.

Don't let your feelings about the beret itself dictate your response to this question.  The wording is clear, and has existed for many, many years.  As a CAP member if you were told to wear a Beret when you attend a meeting on "Anyname Air Force Base" and you don't agree with it.....well you are free to leave. 

Quote from: Patterson on August 01, 2010, 09:38:33 PMIf the Colonel Commanding an Air Force Station says "All personnel must now wear a beret".....well, as a CAP member we have to wear a beret.

Don't let your feelings about the beret itself dictate your response to this question.  The wording is clear, and has existed for many, many years.  As a CAP member if you were told to wear a Beret when you attend a meeting on "Anyname Air Force Base" and you don't agree with it.....well you are free to leave.

Which is never going to happen, so I have no idea why there's even a discussion about it.

You might as well argue whether pigs with wings would have to be equipped with transponders when flying in class B airspace. Who cares? It's not happening.

Quote from: Patterson on August 01, 2010, 09:38:33 PM
I do not understand this thread.  In Table 1-1 of CAPM 39-1 it states:

Quotevisiting military installations. Members will make every effort to
comply with local installation uniform policy. If policy is not
known, the CAP-USAF state director or the installation's public
affairs office may be contacted for guidance.

THEN you have this found in AFI 10-2701

Quote1.5. Actions on Military Installations. When on military Installations or other government facilities,
CAP personnel will adhere to the regulations and policies of the Installation or facility. Installation or
facility commanders may remove or bar entry of individual CAP members in accordance with established
procedures.

So, it seems clear that the Officer commanding a Military Installation of any kind has the authority to dictate what will and will not be worn by CAP members. 

If the Colonel Commanding an Air Force Station says "All personnel must now wear a beret".....well, as a CAP member we have to wear a beret.

Don't let your feelings about the beret itself dictate your response to this question.  The wording is clear, and has existed for many, many years.  As a CAP member if you were told to wear a Beret when you attend a meeting on "Anyname Air Force Base" and you don't agree with it.....well you are free to leave.

On one level you are correct....but on the USAF level the base commander does not have the authority to do such a thing.  That is the point.  If the base commander said "blues only on monday"....we could and would do that.  If the base commander said "Service CAP only on blues mondays" we could not do that....the base commander could say that to his USAF personnel but because the service cap is not authorised for enlisted cadets (except Honor Guard) he cannot legally order us to wear it....nor could the CAP Wing CC order us to wear it in order to help us meet the base commanders expectations.  We would be at a legal impass.

^ Do that and you may find yourself expelled from accessing that installation. 

It is Black and White (the words that I referenced).  The Air Force has every and all right to dictate to CAP members entering any Air Force facility. 

Now, would that ever happen.....hugely doubtful.  But it is not at all impossible. 

Reflective belts while conducting PT between 5AM and 7AM as well as 7Pm and 9PM at my Base is enforced by the Security Police.  We had to spend Squadron Funds making sure all of the Cadets have access to a reflective belt to meet the Base Commanders order.

So, instead of giving up our home, and telling the AF "you can't do that to us, we have our own regulations", we followed Air Force orders.

So simple.  Again, it is a possibility, will it ever happen (AF Colonel ordering berets) not a chance.  However take the word beret out and add "reflective belt" and yes....it did happen, and does happen. 

Wear of a reflective belt is a safety issue, not an appearance issue. A beret is not intended to keep a person from harm. Members of other branches of service may be assigned or have temporary duty at a base, and would be required to meet the same safety directives as the personnel assigned to the installation.

As far as a beret for CAP personnel goes, a savvy commander would reference CAP directives. Since most bases have a liaison assigned (usually as an additional duty), this would take very little time to accomplish. About the only reference he/she would find would be the wing commander's allowance for it. They would most likely request to see a written authorization for the item. If it couldn't be provided, they would have a legitimate issue. I'm certain that if a base commander were to call National Headquarters, they would probably have something ironed out rather quickly.

Base commanders aren't going to arbitrarily set uniform requirements for all personnel assigned to an installation. For one, additional uniform items that are over and above what's directed in the service's uniform publication would require the item to be issued. A reflective belt isn't a uniform item, and it's a minor purchase. And considering how many people purchase optional uniform items, this isn't too much to ask.

Secondly, the commander would have a great deal of difficulty mandating additional items for other branches of service. How would an air base commander get away with requiring soldiers, sailors, and Marines to wear something not required by their branch?

Most commanders are a lot more intelligent than this "Well, a base commander could say..." They're not going to "just say." It's a useless argument. Why don't we give the unrealistic arguments a rest?

Quote from: Patterson on August 01, 2010, 11:59:35 PM
So simple.  Again, it is a possibility, will it ever happen (AF Colonel ordering berets) not a chance.  However take the word beret out and add "reflective belt" and yes....it did happen, and does happen.

Take the word "beret" out and replace it with "safety belt" and its an entirely different conversation.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2010, 01:02:36 AM
Most commanders are a lot more intelligent than this "Well, a base commander could say..." They're not going to "just say." It's a useless argument. Why don't we give the unrealistic arguments a rest?

Really.  :clap:  Base Commanders don't get to be Base Commanders by making dumb decisions. Once they are Base Commanders, they have JAGs and staffs to keep their decisions from being stupid.

What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

Quote from: JK657 on August 02, 2010, 03:21:31 AM
What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

Only a specific activity.

I never wore a beret when I was in CAP but I did in AFJROTC. I wore it because it made me look "tough"... It made me look hardcore, squared away... at least I thought. Berets have a reputation of  eliteness now due to the hard work and dedication of those that have served.  Want to recognize something special? make a ribbon or badge and leave the berets out of it.

Quote from: JK657 on August 02, 2010, 03:21:31 AM
What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

What does a badge or ribbon do that a beret can't?

This particular argument is kind of a non starter.

What it basically comes down to IMHO is that there are three basic schools of thought.

1) The Berets are okay please let us wear it school.
2) The I think berets are really cool but CAP does not deserve to be that cool or that they will screw it up so no berets school of thought.
3) I wore a beret for 20 years and I hated them...don't know why anyone would want to wear them school of thought.

The funny thing is that only the first one has any real bearing on the conversation.

No one has ever AFAIK suggest that everyone wear berets.  No one has suggested they become mandatory.  No one has ever hinted that if unit X allows their NBB graduates to wear their berets that every NBB graduate must wear theirs.  No one suggests that simply wearing a berets automatically makes someone better then anyone else.

But I see a lot of people go out of their way to insure that no one gets to wear one and I don't understand that?

If they follow the regs...and get approval....let them.  Don't use cost, protective factor, or all those other reasons to hold you back.

The only question is the "purpose" that they want the beret "special" enough to rate a beret.

Agree with the above comment


I wore one while I was in the Army (Airborne) and really dont see a problem with it.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2010, 06:28:01 AM

Quote from: JK657 on August 02, 2010, 03:21:31 AM
What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

What does a badge or ribbon do that a beret can't?

Show participation in a standardized way without adding in arrogance or "difference".

The base commander, likely, would not have this "preoccupation" with obscure CAP uniform items and, unless the base commander is is a CAP Officer or former CAP Cadet, they will likely look at CAP as a "good thing" but not "micro manage" uniform items.  In fact, even if they were CAP, I think there would be more pressing matters than berets.

Also, since the CAP beret is not standard in CAP and berets themselves convey certain things written and unwritten, I think that...unless the base commander was cajoled, or cudgled, into it by CAP members...it would never be an issue that the Colonel would even deal with.

I agree - the odds are that any base commander even commenting or noticing our uniforms would happen because we were caught "running with scissors", and he decided to make out lives difficult because of it.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 28, 2010, 06:20:50 PM
Split from the soon to be locked NESA photo thread.

Quote from: PHall on July 28, 2010, 05:39:26 PM

Quote from: DakRadz on July 28, 2010, 03:20:29 PM
Oh my. The blue beret is not allowed for wear on military bases, and that's where she was.... Being that USAF Security Forces wear the beret.

If the Base Commander allows CAP to wear the beret, then it's legal.

How do you figure?

A random base CC who is not also a CAP member (or maybe CAP-USAF), has no authority over CAP members other than behavior and conduct while on their base.  They certainly have no authority to grant the wear of a uniform item.

I could certainly see a base CC disallowing the wear of a respective item with some good reason, but that would need to go through
channels (i.e. CAP-USAF, State Dir, CAP NHQ, etc.).

Although I've never seen a base commander do this, please know that he certainly does have that authority. Push it and you might find a nasty call made to CAP-USAF and CAP barred from a base.

One thing to remember about the blue beret. There was a lot of grief internally in the Air Force when the beret was sought by Brig. Gen. Sadler as a means to spruce up the morale of the SPs. When it was finally approved by the Air Force Uniform Board, it was already being worn by SAC Elite Guards and was formally taken from combat controllers who wore it in Vietnam. I used to get a lot of grief from an officer partner who was medically disqualified from the combat controllers. Neither SPs or combat controllers look at CAP as having completed the same level of training to earn one...myself included (and I can't even wear mine now.)

For the record, there are six combat arms branches of the Air Force who wear berets.

Quote from: flyboy1 on August 02, 2010, 04:44:24 PMAlthough I've never seen a base commander do this, please know that he certainly does have that authority. Push it and you might find a nasty call made to CAP-USAF and CAP barred from a base.

And the circle comes around again. A base commander is going to check into CAP uniforms that he/she has an issue with. They are not going to tell the local unit not to wear something, ban them from an installation arbitrarily, or "clap them in irons." An intelligent commander is going to look into things.

If it came down to CAP wearing a beret that the base commander had an issue with, the restriction from wearing it would be communicated down through CAP channels. It would most likely happen very quickly, but it would still happen through channels. Since the wear of a beret is permitted through our own wing level, all it would probably take would be the base liaison talking to the state director.

This thread is starting to look like: "I don't like CAP personnel wearing a beret, so you'd better stop doing it, because the base commander is gonna throw your unit off the base."

Quote from: flyboy1 on August 02, 2010, 04:44:24 PM
For the record, there are six combat arms branches of the Air Force who wear berets.

Not exactly. There are six colors of berets worn within the Air Force: black, blue, maroon, scarlet, green, and gray. A beret does not equal combat arms.

Personnally, I don't care for berets, I don't see a need for them in CAP. Like a few others here have said: come up with a badge or a ribbon, and be done with it. If an activity already presents some type of award for it, then there is no reason for an additional uniform item that makes you different.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2010, 03:26:42 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2010, 06:28:01 AM

Quote from: JK657 on August 02, 2010, 03:21:31 AM
What does the beret show that a ribbon or badge could not do?

What does a badge or ribbon do that a beret can't?

Show participation in a standardized way without adding in arrogance or "difference".

There is my point.

The beret used to identify special puproses....such as ground teams or color guard or what ever....is simply a tool, like a hammer or screw driver.  Any tool can be abused....but because someone abuses the tool is not necessarily a good reason to tell everyone not to use the tool at all.

I am not discussing the NBB and Hawk mountain issue where it is worn as a permenant badge....but at the local level where the local commander wants/needs to build up special team where "arrogance or difference" is a good thing and furthers the aims and goals of that team.

Let the local wing commander run his wing within the guidelines of the regulations and let the rest just go.  Leave the proper use of the tool up to the local commander and let him deal with the problems that may arrise from forming elite teams.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2010, 06:08:41 PM
Let the local wing commander run his wing within the guidelines of the regulations and let the rest just go.  Leave the proper use of the tool up to the local commander and let him deal with the problems that may arrise from forming elite teams.

Within the current standardized curriculum and conservative nature of CAP, there is no place to allow for an "elite" team of anything, which is the core of the issue.

There isn't a single beret-wearing member of CAP who is allowed to participate in a single mission-related activity that every other member can't also do, and that is the problem.  So you're setting people off as "different", who by their very definition are the "same", or perhaps not even equal to, or allowed to participate in real ES.

Elite?  Show me something objective.

50 Actuals, 10 national-level deployments, etc.

Because we drink from a big cup of "!AWESOME!" each morning doesn't count.

For the record, this thread...

Is not about whether berets are "good"...

Is only peripherally about whether a base commander could prohibit a respective uniform item or combination.

Is about whether a base commander could authorize or even mandate a respective uniform item for CAP (or any other service not
directly in their chain) which is otherwise not authorized.

Safety belts and ID cards are a red herring as in many cases their wear is a DOD-level mandate for all personnel on base, even civilians...

Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2010, 07:26:03 PMElite?  Show me something objective.

50 Actuals, 10 national-level deployments, etc.

We've got awards that cover such things, so even those aren't really a reason to authorize a "different" uniform item.

Not a big fan of Hawk Mountain, but they at least require some physical standards for their awards. Something "special" in the way of an additional uniform item should be something that the folks earning can do and have shown that they have done over and above just going to an activity.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2010, 06:08:41 PM
The beret used to identify special puproses....such as ground teams or color guard or what ever....is simply a tool, like a hammer or screw driver.  Any tool can be abused....but because someone abuses the tool is not necessarily a good reason to tell everyone not to use the tool at all.

Just because a tool can be used for something, doesn't mean it should be. I can hammer things with the butt end of a screwdriver, but it doesn't make it the tool of choice, especially if I already have a hammer.

If a uniform item actually shows a legitimate benefit or indicates a "special" skill, I don't have any issues with it. Things for the sake of appearance don't really contribute to the mission. A mission will not fail because someone isn't wearing their special hat. It's just a hat. A person can wear the same one everyone else does.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2010, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2010, 06:08:41 PM
Let the local wing commander run his wing within the guidelines of the regulations and let the rest just go.  Leave the proper use of the tool up to the local commander and let him deal with the problems that may arrise from forming elite teams.

Within the current standardized curriculum and conservative nature of CAP, there is no place to allow for an "elite" team of anything, which is the core of the issue.

There isn't a single beret-wearing member of CAP who is allowed to participate in a single mission-related activity that every other member can't also do, and that is the problem.  So you're setting people off as "different", who by their very definition are the "same", or perhaps not even equal to, or allowed to participate in real ES.

Elite?  Show me something objective.

50 Actuals, 10 national-level deployments, etc.

Because we drink from a big cup of "!AWESOME!" each morning doesn't count.

Elite.....those who go above and beyond the minimuns of training and duty.

Color guard.....they train extra and do extra duty.
Ground Teams...they train and maintain certs that are not required of everyone.

Those are just two of the most common teams that have or have requested berets in the past.

You use the tool of the beret to help foster a sense of identity in the special team.  Develope a certain level of eliteness that makes others want to join and those who are part of the team maintain the higher standards both of which promote the general CAP ideas of excellance and service.

Of course if eliteness becomes a problem then I use my leadership skills and authority to correct it as necessary up to and including removing the beret for wear (assuming that it was approved by the wing CC in the first place).

It is not rocket science....it is about using the tools provided in a way to advance the goals of the organisation.

In my squadron we use all sorts of tools like this.

My cadet officers all wear the service cap in blues.  My cadet staff all wear ties/tie tab in blues to set themselves apart from the other cadets.  In BDUs they wear a brown t-shirt instead of black.

My color guard wear the white cord and my CAC reps wear their cords.

My officers wear the rank they have achieved....these are all forms of eliteness that we use as tools to make the program work.

^ and not a single thing in your toolbox is different from what is being done nationally.  Nothing you are doing would generate an uncomfortable conversation with another wing's activity CC or mission IC.

If whatever it is you want to award for "extra" is standardized, fine.  Like the beret? Then award it for all GTMs, that way at least the
actual teams will potentially look uniform.

Attaining a GT rating is, "extra", but one state's or unit's ground team is no "better" or "different" than anyone else's, so neither should have any unique identifier as such, otherwise the inference and I would say intention, is to say that one team is better than another, with no way to discern that whatsoever.

An interesting paradigm here is that those who really are "elite" rarely care to be recognized as such, knowing the hollow ring of that term, while inferring elite status where none exists is an excellent way to generate arrogance and attitude issues, and CAP commanders see that all the time, with this stuff.

So, lets say a commander does put out the order: No Berets on my base due to the desire to readily identify Security Forces personnel. The only exception is PJs, Combat Controllers, etc.

What do you do?

1. Pull out your Cap Regs and say, oh yes we can
2. Wear an alternate form of headgear

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 04:23:11 AM
So, lets say a commander does put out the order: No Berets on my base due to the desire to readily identify Security Forces personnel. The only exception is PJs, Combat Controllers, etc.

What do you do?

1. Pull out your Cap Regs and say, oh yes we can
2. Wear an alternate form of headgear

I'm getting a kick out of how people are assuming that a base commander is stupid.

If a commander had an issue, he/she would follow channels. Which means that he/she would have their base liaison contact a state director, and have it put out that he didn't like CAP personnel wearing blue berets on his installation. Since it is not a standardized headgear for Civil Air Patrol, it's not really an issue. It would probably be communicated to the squadron commander within a day or two of the liaison talking to the state director.

In which case CAP personnel would not wear an "alternate" headgear, they would wear standard headgear.

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 04:59:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 04:23:11 AM
So, lets say a commander does put out the order: No Berets on my base due to the desire to readily identify Security Forces personnel. The only exception is PJs, Combat Controllers, etc.

What do you do?

1. Pull out your Cap Regs and say, oh yes we can
2. Wear an alternate form of headgear

1. SF troops can and do wear organizational baseball caps (in BDUs)
2. SF troops can and do wear BDU/Patrol Caps.
3. SF troops can and do wear helmets.

Should we ban CAP from wearing any of that? Security Forces can distinguish themselves just fine with them fine looking badges, pistol belts and arm bands (deployed.) If you're an airman on a base and you're looking for a beret when in need, you're making a BIG mistake. You're much more likely to flag down a soldier than a Sercurity Policeman. If you need assistance, call the SF Squadron or ask the guy/gal with the weapon for assistance. Also, given that SF airmen are usually found either in the gate shack or in a patrol car...

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 03, 2010, 05:30:21 AM

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 04:59:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

And again, we have a poster not reading previous posts.  Please go back to page three in this thread and look at what I referenced.  Both 39-1 and an AFI.  Both are what we (as CAP) operate off of. 

Anyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

An Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret. 

Quote from: arajca on July 29, 2010, 05:45:52 PM
a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

Agree 100%

Quote from: Patterson on August 03, 2010, 05:42:41 AM

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 03, 2010, 05:30:21 AM

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 04:59:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

And again, we have a poster not reading previous posts.  Please go back to page three in this thread and look at what I referenced.  Both 39-1 and an AFI.  Both are what we (as CAP) operate off of. 

Anyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

An Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret.

Right... well actually while the installation commander can kick us, the organization, off, he may end up having explain it to his superiors if the matter was pressed through the CAP-USAF chain of command. That's especially true of AETC bases since CAP-USAF is under that MAJCOM. Every installation commander has his/her boss who may disagree with the decision.

Reflective belts are mandated by Army regulations while exercising outdoors between sunset and sunrise. Reflective belts are not mandated by USAF regulations as their PT uniforms are reflective by design. USAF regs state specifically that reflective equipment need not be worn while wearing the USAF Physical Fitness uniform. Local commanders may issue additional safety regulations for their posts as they see fit regarding reflective equipment. However, no CAP regulation talks about reflective belts. No regulations, pamphlet or supplement authorizes their wear, so they are not part of a uniform. That's something I would actually change if I was a Safety Officer. I would require that all members wear reflective equipment between sunset and sunrise while performing CAP functions, in uniform or out.

Quote from: Patterson on August 03, 2010, 05:42:41 AMAnyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

No, it's not uniform issue. I've never received one as part of my clothing issue in 22 years of service that spans three components of the military.

And as far as the demand of a cite goes, you cannot demand that when there is nothing to cite. It's basically a demand to prove something does not exist. Let's think logically, now.

Quote from: Patterson on August 03, 2010, 05:42:41 AMAn Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret.

Yet another post implying that a base commander acts like some kind of dictator. Removing CAP from a base would go a lot further that just blocking them at the gate. Have you forgotten that a base commander has a commander, too?

I will agree that a base CO would never order CAP members to order a beret, and most likely would never tell them that they couldn't.

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 03, 2010, 05:45:18 AM

Quote from: arajca on July 29, 2010, 05:45:52 PM
a) They don't. CAP members are not AF personnel, nor are we employees of the AF.
b) I would not flaunt it.

Agree 100%

Disagree 100%

There are some here that will be happy to get technical with you and throw the regulation cites your way.  Suffice it to say, our regs say we will do our best to meet what the Base Commander has ordered.  PERIOD.  Back a whole page in this thread if I lost you!

Second, you would be flaunting your decision not to follow an order given by the Air Force.  We took an oath that we would follow CAP regs, and those things say, we will follow the orders of the Air Force.  The Base Commander represents the Air Force. 

This is the type of crap that got us the uniforms we are in now.  Lets gladly repeat the past.  Some people here need to start reasoning with FACTS, not beliefs. 

Just read all the members who climb up on their soap boxes to cite regs about how base commanders can't make them do this or that and then wonder why some base commanders just simplify their lives and restrict CAP from their bases.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 03, 2010, 05:53:53 AM

Quote from: Patterson on August 03, 2010, 05:42:41 AMAnyway,  Those that have said a "reflective belt is not a uniform item".  Again, cite??  It is a clothing bag issue in every service.  It is very much a uniform item on most installations these days!!

No, it's not uniform issue. I've never received one as part of my clothing issue in 22 years of service that spans three components of the military.

And as far as the demand of a cite goes, you cannot demand that when there is nothing to cite. It's basically a demand to prove something does not exist. Let's think logically, now.

Quote from: Patterson on August 03, 2010, 05:42:41 AMAn Air Force Installation Commander has so much power over a CAP member walking into a CAP meeting held on the Base, it would flip your hat.  We are only allowed to come on Base at the pleasure and convenience of that Officer.  If he decided that the sky was too blue and he was going to kick CAP off, he can.  There would be nothing we, the State Directors or CAP-USAF commander could do about it.

This whole thread is ridiculous.  We all know the Base Commander would never "order" CAP members to wear a beret.

Yet another post implying that a base commander acts like some kind of dictator. Removing CAP from a base would go a lot further that just blocking them at the gate. Have you forgotten that a base commander has a commander, too?

OK.

Quote from: Short Field on August 03, 2010, 05:59:59 AM
Just read all the members who climb up on their soap boxes to cite regs about how base commanders can't make them do this or that and then wonder why some base commanders just simplify their lives and restrict CAP from their bases.

What bases currently bar CAP from the installation? Actual cases where CAP is specifically limited from entry.

I've known units that moved off installations for their own reasons, but none that have been barred.

Attention members of CAPTalk: Please flip your brain switch to the "on" position.

My interpretation of the OP was that the Base/CC authorized wear of the beret on his installation, if CAP allowed it as well.

But, if the Base/CC requires distinctive headgear for CAP, we do have ball caps that are authorized. No big deal.

As for the Beret itself: As of right this second, the NBB beret is only authorized for wear during NBB. If that were to change, a Unit Commander would still have all the power in the world to say "no beret." In my neck of the woods, the Blue Beret is a mark of shame and disloyalty to the Wing. Not officially, but the phrase "Blue Berry" is a joke in my neck of the woods.

A base commander can require wear of a reflective belt while on base, but if that proves to be difficult, my personal experience has told me that they usually are more than willing to approve ANSI class 2 vests, that any GTM should have anyway.

Basically, unless our regs say that we can't do it, the Base Commander can require it.

Quote from: afgeo4 on August 03, 2010, 05:30:21 AM

Quote from: Pylon on July 29, 2010, 04:59:52 PM
I'm pretty sure that if a military base commander said to CAP personnel on his or her installation that "flight suits will not be worn on my base" or "CAP personnel will comply with my standing order for wear of blues uniforms on Mondays, if they're on base" or even "when on my installation, CAP personnel will wear reflective belts when walking outdoors", that there neither is nor should there be any question of that order's validity. 

I would expect CAP personnel to be capable of appreciating that they are tolerated civilian guests who are only allowed to be there at the pleasure of the installation commander and that, even if CAP's uniform manual doesn't spell out that we can wear reflective belts, or even if CAP's regulations say we have the option to wear BDUs, that we'd follow the orders anyway.

Last of all, I would expect that even if the base commander's authority isn't concretely laid out, that we'd comply anyway simply out of courtesy for his or her position and rank, for CAP's relationship and image with the Air Force, and for the desire to avoid unnecessary conflict.

According to the UCMJ, that order is invalid actually. The base or any other military commander has no command authority over any member of Civil Air Patrol. That's in our charter and the law that establishes us. We are under the indirect command of the SECAF, who is a civilian. No military man/woman has any authority over CAP volunteers. The base commander can request or even demand that we comply with his/her policies, but he/she cannot order the compliance. The only thing they can do is kick the CAP from the base. Of course, when you have a good relationship with the base CC, you shouldn't have unreasonable requests from him/her and the CAP CC shouldn't be ignoring those requests. It just makes good sense.

The same goes with whoever runs the facility CAP uses for its meetings or operations, be it an airport, a school, a community center or an Army armory.

That is so incorrect it hurts; and who said anything about the UCMJ. For the record a base commander has total authority on his base. PERIOD. I know, I was a base liaison twice and RAP NCO. Yes, he will go through channels and people have been barred from bases many times over the history of the CAP.

Try to push it and you'll see the consequences.  I know personally of a recent 2B action that started that way and ended up involving, not just NHQ, but the FBI and AFOSI.

As far as the beret is concerned, yes it reflects elitism. Is there a need for it in the CAP, no. We are all supposed to be one team, with everyone working together. We, as an organization, have enough problems just getting people to wear uniforms properly. Why do we have to add a symbol of elitism when cadets/senior members go to the variety of other national activities and only earn a patch or a badge.

The CAP beret thing stated under Brig. Gen. Cass. At the time, I think there were three really strong ground team-type programs in the CAP and each one "pumped their chests" to be better than the others. OK competition is good, but  in my long history with the CAP, I've seen how that elitism can destroy a unit. As a cadet in the Pennsylvania Wing, kids would go to Hawk Mountain to earn ranger ratings, come back to the unit and the next thing you know AE stuff is thrown out the window for the sake of Ranger training.

Quote from: flyboy1 on August 03, 2010, 10:16:33 AM
That is so incorrect it hurts; and who said anything about the UCMJ. For the record a base commander has total authority on his base. PERIOD. I know, I was a base liaison twice and RAP NCO. Yes, he will go through channels and people have been barred from bases many times over the history of the CAP.

Try to push it and you'll see the consequences.  I know personally of a recent 2B action that started that way and ended up involving, not just NHQ, but the FBI and AFOSI.

I wouldn't further engage this, but if you were a RAP and a liaison, you know that's not the case, nor is this remotely about anything that would involve the FBI, AFOSI, FDA, MPAA, or AARP (ok, maybe AARP).

A base CC can invite you to play in his sandbox, dis-invite you, or place restrictions on which of his toys you can play with, he cannot make up rules and policies for an organization outside his chain of command.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2010, 02:53:20 PM

Quote from: flyboy1 on August 03, 2010, 10:16:33 AM
That is so incorrect it hurts; and who said anything about the UCMJ. For the record a base commander has total authority on his base. PERIOD. I know, I was a base liaison twice and RAP NCO. Yes, he will go through channels and people have been barred from bases many times over the history of the CAP.

Try to push it and you'll see the consequences.  I know personally of a recent 2B action that started that way and ended up involving, not just NHQ, but the FBI and AFOSI.

I wouldn't further engage this, but if you were a RAP and a liaison, you know that's not the case, nor is this remotely about anything that would involve the FBI, AFOSI, FDA, MPAA, or AARP (ok, maybe AARP).

A base CC can invite you to play in his sandbox, dis-invite you, or place restrictions on which of his toys you can play with, he cannot make up rules and policies for an organization outside his chain of command.

I never said the incident in question was tied to my experiences as a base liaison or CAP RAP NCO, I was in fact the group commander at the time. It was meant, however, to explain my comments from a refrence point of a level of experience.

As far as the orginal subject of what a base commander can or can not do, it is also my experience that people tend to never learn from the experiences of others, they learn on their own the hard way, so be it.

Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 03:36:35 PM
Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Don't be a troll.

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 03:36:35 PM
Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

troll/10

Quote from: flyboy1 on August 03, 2010, 03:27:52 PM
I never said the incident in question was tied to my experiences as a base liaison or CAP RAP NCO, I was in fact the group commander at the time. It was meant, however, to explain my comments from a refrence point of a level of experience.

As far as the orginal subject of what a base commander can or can not do, it is also my experience that people tend to never learn from the experiences of others, they learn on their own the hard way, so be it.

So...

Your experience isn't relevant, but we better learn from it or we'll suffer the consequences?

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 03, 2010, 06:19:07 AM

Quote from: Short Field on August 03, 2010, 05:59:59 AM
then wonder why some base commanders just simplify their lives and restrict CAP from their bases.

What bases currently bar CAP from the installation? Actual cases where CAP is specifically limited from entry.

Restrict - not barred.  I was referring to the bases - and the CAPTALK members don't always name them - that have restricted access to CAP members.  There are several examples on CAPTALK of members having to request access through the SD so that an access letter can be provided to the gate guards.  In some cases, the request needed to be submitted a month in advance.  This was at a base where CAP had an office.

When CAP is on any military installation, we are guests and should conduct ourselves as such.

This means conforming willingly and cheerfully with base directives.

If the base requirement conflicts with CAP regulations, notify your chain of command...the wing CC or, more likely, state director will look into it

This reminds me of visits from my niece and nephew who, chafing a bit under how we do things in our home, have been known to explain "But Mommy says we can do this!"

Which earns a simple, direct response from their kindly uncle (me!): "Mommy's not here!"

Zig, I agree with the first part, but the inverse reality is that just because you're at Grandma's house and she says something is OK, doesn't mean that when mom finds out there won't be trouble!

Quote from: PHall on August 03, 2010, 03:41:13 PM

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 03:36:35 PM
Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Don't be a troll.

I'm just throwing it there since many people are anti-beret. Does changing the item change people's opinion on the matter?

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 06:48:39 PM

Quote from: PHall on August 03, 2010, 03:41:13 PM

Quote from: JK657 on August 03, 2010, 03:36:35 PM
Hypothetical-2

Base Commander says: No field uniforms unless actively engaged in field operations. Basically expanding the Blues Mondays to all week long. Can the local CAP unit wear their BDUs on the base for their meetings?

Don't be a troll.

I'm just throwing it there since many people are anti-beret. Does changing the item change people's opinion on the matter?

Not really. A base commander just isn't going to do any of the hypothiticals here in the manner that some people imply. Base commanders are quite aware that they have a wide variety of personnel on their installations, and they know the channels to go through.

Any restrictions are going to come down our chain. That's how the military works, you don't tell the joe on the street what your policies are, you deliver it through channels. Anything unique to a base is presented at inbriefings when personnel arrive. CAP personnel don't just walk in and take over meeting space, it's coordinated. Most base liaisons will come to meetings on occasion to pass out any pertinent information, usually after coordinating with the state director. It's a lot more organized than most people think.

A base commander is just not going to hunt down Joe Blow, CAP and tell them that they can or can't wear a certain item.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2010, 06:31:42 PM
Zig, I agree with the first part, but the inverse reality is that just because you're at Grandma's house and she says something is OK, doesn't mean that when mom finds out there won't be trouble!

Actually, Eclipse, I was referring to stricter rules at my house!

BTW, "Mom" agrees: the kids play by our rules when at our place!

The corollary, of course, is that CAP should adhere to base regulations, even if CAP regs are more permissive...when in Rome and all that.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 03, 2010, 07:57:27 PMA base commander is just not going to hunt down Joe Blow, CAP and tell them that they can or can't wear a certain item.

... which is why I can't understand why this thread is still going.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2010, 03:51:01 AM
The corollary, of course, is that CAP should adhere to base regulations, even if CAP regs are more permissive...when in Rome and all that.

THAT, my friend, is a preposterous suggestion.   Do you seriously think that USAF folks would follow CAP regulations while at a non-base CAP facility instead of USAF regs?    Do members of the Army, Marines, and Navy abandon their regulations and follow USAF regulations while on a USAF base?   Of course not.   We should not either.

The correct answer to this whole scenario has been posted time and time again, but some of you can't seem to resist inventing incorrect solutions to this problem -- which is largely theoretical to begin with.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on August 04, 2010, 06:44:27 AM
Do members of the Army, Marines, and Navy abandon their regulations and follow USAF regulations while on a USAF base?

Weeelllllll - that turns into "choose your battles" situation. I spent 2 1/5 years on an Air Base while in the Navy. They were eternally irritated with us for not participating in their exercises. For instance, we had an interesting incident when the fire alarm in the barracks got pulled around 0730. When everyone evacuated the building, the AF folks were trying to haul off the Navy folks for not being in designated exercise apparel. Most of us were just trying to go to work, and our O-in-C was hot when half the work force was late.

OTOH, we had to play by a lot of their rules just to avoid the hassles of the Article 15 system. The Security forces folks were in perpetual need of grande size condoms.

Quote from: SarDragon on August 04, 2010, 07:19:51 AM
OTOH, we had to play by a lot of their rules just to avoid the hassles of the Article 15 system. The Security forces folks were in perpetual need of grande size condoms.

I just cleaned the keyboard last week!

Quote from: JoeTomasone on August 04, 2010, 06:44:27 AM

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2010, 03:51:01 AM
The corollary, of course, is that CAP should adhere to base regulations, even if CAP regs are more permissive...when in Rome and all that.

THAT, my friend, is a preposterous suggestion.   Do you seriously think that USAF folks would follow CAP regulations while at a non-base CAP facility instead of USAF regs?    Do members of the Army, Marines, and Navy abandon their regulations and follow USAF regulations while on a USAF base?   Of course not.   We should not either.

Are you kidding?

CAP is the (sometime) auxiliary of the USAF.

Nothing is more likely to damage our relationship with the Air Force than to have CAP personnel needlessly playing barracks lawyer with the generals and colonels commanding Air Force bases!

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting we violate any CAP regulations.

I am saying that we can, on occasion, refrain from exercising what is, in fact, a privilege under CAP rules out of respect for the wishes of our parent organization.

BTW, even as far as CAP is concerned, I believe commanders have the right, within regulations and certain limitations, to specify the 'uniform of the day' for their unit.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2010, 03:26:35 PM
BTW, even as far as CAP is concerned, I believe commanders have the right, within regulations and certain limitations, to specify the 'uniform of the day' for their unit.

Yes, they do, at least for seniors (not so for cadets unless its the FCU or we issue the items), in fact I would agree that anyone in the chain of command could do so.

We are not in the military chain of command.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2010, 03:34:37 PMWe are not in the military chain of command.

And we don't have UCMJ 'dinging power', either.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2010, 03:26:35 PM
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting we violate any CAP regulations.

I am saying that we can, on occasion, refrain from exercising what is, in fact, a privilege under CAP rules out of respect for the wishes of our parent organization.

BTW, even as far as CAP is concerned, I believe commanders have the right, within regulations and certain limitations, to specify the 'uniform of the day' for their unit.

That's not what you said. 

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2010, 03:51:01 AM
The corollary, of course, is that CAP should adhere to base regulations, even if CAP regs are more permissive...when in Rome and all that.

What you suggested is that we adhere to the regulations of another service, which is a far cry from simply not wearing a given (article of a) uniform due to local base policy.    However, even that is not a cut-and-dried situation; if the local base policy prohibited black boots and stated that only tan were authorized, we would not be able to simply change boots to meet the policy; we would instead need to involve the SD to clarify if the policy applied to CAP.   If the answer was in the affirmative, then you would not be able to wear BDUs on the base.   However, I do agree that if the policy restricts something that would not put a member into conflict with CAP regulations, then we absolutely should adhere to that policy.    So, for example, if the policy prohibits wearing Camelbacks, you simply don't wear a Camelback.

However, we cannot blindly obey USAF regulations when they conflict with CAP regulations as you seem to imply. 

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 03, 2010, 06:22:36 AMIn my neck of the woods, the Blue Beret is a mark of shame and disloyalty to the Wing. Not officially, but the phrase "Blue Berry" is a joke in my neck of the woods.

And commanders in your "neck of the woods" tolerate such childishness?

Quote from: N Harmon on August 05, 2010, 01:08:47 PM

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 03, 2010, 06:22:36 AMIn my neck of the woods, the Blue Beret is a mark of shame and disloyalty to the Wing. Not officially, but the phrase "Blue Berry" is a joke in my neck of the woods.

And commanders in your "neck of the woods" tolerate such childishness?

Sounds like Blue Beret is not the only organization with an attitude problem...

JoeT, clearly what we have here is a 'failure to communicate'...obviously what I thought I said was not what you understood...fair enough, happens now and then...for the record, however it came across, I did not meant that CAP should 'blindly' follow base regulations, but rather that we should adopt a cooperative, respectful attitude in working with military authorities, especially when we are guests on their installations.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 05, 2010, 06:07:52 PM
JoeT, clearly what we have here is a 'failure to communicate'...obviously what I thought I said was not what you understood...fair enough, happens now and then...for the record, however it came across, I did not meant that CAP should 'blindly' follow base regulations, but rather that we should adopt a cooperative, respectful attitude in working with military authorities, especially when we are guests on their installations.

OK, that I can co-sign.   :)

Of course, what you say should be a given...  But obviously it hasn't always been.