If a cadet is a Sgt. with the rank below Cadet Master Sgt.are they still eligible to become the squadron's First Sgt. ? If so where is the diamond ( Vanguard sells this) to be placed on the collar? In place of the rank or above the rank? Thank you.
Quote from: Turtle1 on July 11, 2010, 06:41:22 PM
If a cadet is a Sgt. with the rank below Cadet Master Sgt.are they still eligible to become the squadron's First Sgt. ? If so where is the diamond ( Vanguard sells this) to be placed on the collar? In place of the rank or above the rank? Thank you.
The answer you are looking for is in CAPR 52-16 and CAPM 39-1. I'll give you a hint: the diamond by itself is not a currently authorized item.
I know WIWAC, the First SGt placed the small diamond above the rank. I am not sure about now. Of course back then, we stopped at Master Sgt and had gold pips for flight officers. They may have changed the regulations since then, so I would check with your local unit commander, or the CAPM 39-1 for proper placement.
Quote from: LIG SAR Medic on July 11, 2010, 06:54:57 PM
I know WIWAC, the First SGt placed the small diamond above the rank. I am not sure about now. Of course back then, we stopped at Master Sgt and had gold pips for flight officers. They may have changed the regulations since then, so I would check with your local unit commander, or the CAPM 39-1 for proper placement.
The separate diamond is not allowed. There is a gray area on weather the MSgt with attached diamond is allowed. Read 52-16.
Of course, your unit will know that you are the first sergeant, whether you have the diamond or not...
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 11, 2010, 08:31:23 PM
Of course, your unit will know that you are the first sergeant, whether you have the diamond or not...
And if you're not at your unit you're not the first shirt anymore.
The separate diamond isn't necessary because cadets under C/MSgt may not serve in the position of Cadet First Sergeant.
Quote from: Pylon on July 11, 2010, 10:22:20 PM
The separate diamond isn't necessary because cadets under C/MSgt may not serve in the position of Cadet First Sergeant.
Aw, I was going the teach a man to fish routine. I beleive that every single cadet needs to be familar with 52-16 since it controls their whole world in CAP. This question is directly answered there.
Quote from: Pylon on July 11, 2010, 10:22:20 PM
The separate diamond isn't necessary because cadets under C/MSgt may not serve in the position of Cadet First Sergeant.
Not that we want to impose logic or anything with our regulations.....but in what world does this make sense. A C/AB can be C/CC but only C/MSgt to C/CMSgts can be first sergeants?
Not wanting to expand the diamond argument too far....but this is a little odd.
To the OP:
The regs are contradictory.....ask your commander and do what he says.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 11, 2010, 10:57:53 PM
The regs are contradictory
Except for the fact that only MSgts can be First Sergeant. That part is pretty black and white. As for wearing a diamond?
Quote from: lordmonar on July 11, 2010, 10:57:53 PM
ask your commander and do what he says.
Is the correct answer.
Thank you all for your responses. I was aware of the regulation but seeing the diamond by itself still being sold at Vanguard I thought that I missed something.
Quote from: Turtle1 on July 13, 2010, 10:33:35 PM
Thank you all for your responses. I was aware of the regulation but seeing the diamond by itself still being sold at Vanguard I thought that I missed something.
Unfortunately VG sells a number of items which are either not approved for wear by CAP, controversial due to our regs not being in sync, or which don't offer proper guidance because they aren't mentioned anywhere (i.e. blank epaulet sleeves).
CT is a great place to get a quick answer, but on anything gray, your question chain should be regs-unit-group-wing, as that is likely to be the order anyone will notice or make an issue.
WIWAC, back in the early-mid 2000s, my squadron appointed the highest cadet NCO to the position of 1st Sgt. He was a C/TSgt at the time, and they allowed him the use of the diamond resting above, but not overlapping, the center of the chevron. This was also back before grade insignia was allowed on both collars. But then again, back in those days, it was not uncommon, at least in my squadron, for the C/CC to be a Phase III cadet who just got his Mitchell Award. I guess it depends on how closely your particular squadron follows the regs. I know that the 52-16 states (roughly, don't have it directly in my face) that only C/MSgt and above can be 1st Sgt, Flight Sgts. can only be C/SSgt to C/CMSgt, and C/DCC and C/CC can only be C/Maj and above. Not all squadrons have such a plethora of cadet officers, and as such some squadrons place cadets with leadership experience in the respective positions, regardless of having "appropriate grade."
Obviously CAP is trying to mirror the AF criteria - you have to be a senior NCO to be a 1st Shirt. And also obviously that criteria doesn't fit with the cadet program's needs.
Quote from: kd8gua on July 15, 2010, 05:41:53 PM...and C/DCC and C/CC can only be C/Maj and above...
Where is that in the regs? 52-16 lists Cadet Commander and Deputy in the
typical duties for phase III cadets, but it doesn't restrict those positions to that phase in the way First Sergeant is restricted to senior NCOs.
Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 15, 2010, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: kd8gua on July 15, 2010, 05:41:53 PM...and C/DCC and C/CC can only be C/Maj and above...
Where is that in the regs? 52-16 lists Cadet Commander and Deputy in the typical duties for phase III cadets, but it doesn't restrict those positions to that phase in the way First Sergeant is restricted to senior NCOs.
CAPR 52-16, 2-4(e) clearly states: "...However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant."
Pylon, how did you figure out that most answers are in the regulations we should be reading?!?!?!
What a class that would be......teaching members how to open up a CAP Regulation, Manual, Pamphlet or Memo.
I like you.....and your smart! ;)
Quote from: Pylon on July 15, 2010, 06:59:27 PM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on July 15, 2010, 06:43:15 PM
Quote from: kd8gua on July 15, 2010, 05:41:53 PM...and C/DCC and C/CC can only be C/Maj and above...
Where is that in the regs? 52-16 lists Cadet Commander and Deputy in the typical duties for phase III cadets, but it doesn't restrict those positions to that phase in the way First Sergeant is restricted to senior NCOs.
CAPR 52-16, 2-4(e) clearly states: "...However, each squadron may appoint a C/MSgt, C/SMSgt or C/CMSgt to serve as the cadet first sergeant."
I know that, in fact i said that. The question I'm asking is "where in the regs does it say that a Cadet Commander and Cadet Deputy Commander may only be a C/Maj and above?"
Quote from: Patterson on July 15, 2010, 08:57:27 PM
Pylon, how did you figure out that most answers are in the regulations we should be reading?!?!?!
What a class that would be......teaching members how to open up a CAP Regulation, Manual, Pamphlet or Memo.
I like you.....and your smart! ;)
Except that he answered the wrong question ;)