This was question given to me a couple of years back by my CFII and which I have since given to many other CFII's. Everyone gets it wrong the first time. Some instructors succumb. Some still don't buy it.
Imagine a beautiful day, not a cloud for 200 miles and you decide to take a short flight from your local airport to another one 30 minutes away. Just for kicks (And a little radio proficiency) you decide to file IFR. True, your destination doesn't have an instrument approach, but you intend to cancel IFR 20 minutes out and fly the rest of the way VFR. When you file your flight plan, do you need to list an alternate?
Yes, you do.
I'll be interested to see who can articulate the reason why. The answer can actually be distilled to a few words (Citations only, please).
If weather information isn't available - you can't fit within the confines of 91.169
IAP and published WX minimums, available WX data.. If there's no published approach, there's not likely to be any WX minimums, so you can't apply the 1 hour before and after against anything.
QuoteSec. 91.169 IFR flight plan: Information required.
(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each
person
filing an IFR flight plan shall include in it the following
information:
(1) Information required under Sec. 91.153(a).
(2) An alternate airport, except as provided in paragraph (b) of
this
section.
(b) Exceptions to applicability of paragraph (a)(2) of this
section.
Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not apply if part 97 of this
chapter
prescribes a standard instrument approach procedure for the first
airport of
intended landing and, for at least 1 hour before and 1 hour after
the
estimated time of arrival, the weather reports or forecasts, or any
combination of them, indicate--
(1) The ceiling will be at least 2,000 feet above the airport
elevation;
and
(2) The visibility will be at least 3 statute miles.
(c) IFR alternate airport weather minimums.
No IAP, alternate required.
You would need to file an alternate because in the IFR system, it has to account for the possibility that you will not have the ability to land because there is no IAP. The system has to have somewhere to send you and somewhere to end. The end would be your alternate.
Or......You could file your IFR/VFR Flight Plan to a fix vs the actual airport and proceed VFR to the airport from that fix. In that case, the system has somewhere to send you. I am working on my CFII, so if I am off base....let me know.
I think most of the replies basically got it.
FAR 91.169(a)(2) plus (b).
When filing an IFR flight plan, an alternate is required except when the first intended destination has an instrument approach and...
...well, nothing else matters. It's an "and". The weather is irrelevant.
I don't know anything about this filing to a fix business without a destination airport. Destination airport is one of the flight plan fields.
I get a clearance to a non-airport fix every time I do an IFR to VFR on top. Usually it is a VOR.
ATC doesn't seem to have a problem with IFR flight plans that don't get you to an airport.
Quote from: simon on July 10, 2010, 05:21:32 AM
This was question given to me a couple of years back by my CFII and which I have since given to many other CFII's. Everyone gets it wrong the first time. Some instructors succumb. Some still don't buy it.
Imagine a beautiful day, not a cloud for 200 miles and you decide to take a short flight from your local airport to another one 30 minutes away. Just for kicks (And a little radio proficiency) you decide to file IFR. True, your destination doesn't have an instrument approach, but you intend to cancel IFR 20 minutes out and fly the rest of the way VFR. When you file your flight plan, do you need to list an alternate?
Yes, you do.
I'll be interested to see who can articulate the reason why. The answer can actually be distilled to a few words (Citations only, please).
Not a pilot....but the answer seems to me to pretty obvious.
No matter what the actual weather is....and IFR flight plan is an IFR flight plan....it is built around the idea that the weather is or may be below VFR minimums....so even if you want to land a the little grass strip outside of town....the rules are built to prevent you from doing so....unless you have a suitable alternative available if the weather craps out on you before arrival.
What gets me...is that so many CFII's get it wrong....I though you guys we were all sky gods, infallible, and all knowing! :)
Quote from: dbaran on July 11, 2010, 10:52:45 PM
I get a clearance to a non-airport fix every time I do an IFR to VFR on top. Usually it is a VOR.
ATC doesn't seem to have a problem with IFR flight plans that don't get you to an airport.
I do that for surveillance ops. On IFR days, Ill depart IFR to VFR on top so I can take a look around at the surveillance area. Once VFR, Ill proceed to the Lat/Long or address or intersection I have in my GPS for the days operation. If I cant get on top or realize my target area is covered, Ill remain VFR and usually ask for vectors back to to the ILS assuming I stayed local. I have filed to a specific VOR and requested a hold for the same reasons. If I get there and its IFR, I hold and request vectors, again, usually back to the home airport. If its VFR I cancel IFR and do my business.
Required or not, I always file an alternate when filing IFR. Doesn't matter what the weather forecast is. Saves the stress if things don't go as planned. Runway could close at destination even if it's VFR and you already had a plan, don't need to make one up on the "fly".
You seem to be insinuating that forecasts can be wrong?
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 12, 2010, 01:10:51 PM
You seem to be insinuating that forecasts can be wrong?
Are you insinuating that it's possible for a forecast to be right? ;D
Why do you think they call them "Weather Guessers?"
Quote....so even if you want to land a the little grass strip outside of town....the rules are built to prevent you from doing so....
BTW the original question was on a technicality. Yes, by the book one has to put in an alternate. In reality, if it is severe clear all the way and you are just going IFR for the sake of it, I suspect most pilots wouldn't bother with the alternate.
QuoteWhat gets me...is that so many CFII's get it wrong....I though you guys we were all sky gods, infallible, and all knowing! :)
Hehe. A couple probably do think they are sky gods. The truth is a lot of CFII's don't fly IMC very often. Many are not even current or have not had students for years. I suspect most rarely pick up the AIM and glance through subtle but regular rule changes (Who would - it's like watching grass grow). And some flat out get some things wrong. The only thing that bugs me is when I hear an instructor teach a budding student something that is flat out wrong. Nobody's perfect, but as we pilots know, there's a lot of misinformation floating around that gets passed down from instructor to pilot. When I hear something around the flight school that I know is wrong, there's no point arguing with someone who thinks they are right. I simply grab a copy of the AIM and say "Okay, show me where it says that.", followed shortly thereafter by a little blushing.