The KB just posted an article which features April 2010 stats on cadet demographics.
Apparently our ranks included 161 cadets under 12 years old, including 2 that were 10.
How is this possible consider the "hard start age" is 12, and has been for several years?
Here's the full report: http://www.capmembers.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/Stats_C091196AC47C8.pdf
My assumption is that this is somehow related to the SEP.
I believe it has to do with the School Enrichment Program. Trying to pull up the regs now..
Edit:
I think you are correct Eclipse
Yep....the SEP (now called ACE IIRC) only has a grade limit (5th IIRC).
So you will have ton of cadets who are 11 and a small handful who are only 10.
Ok here it is,
There is the brief paragraph in 52-16 saying that there is a school program.
However the most descriptive of SEP (outside of syllabus info) would be in the DDR regs
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R051_001.pdf
Looks like 6th grade is the only requirement.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2010, 08:55:01 PM
Yep....the SEP (now called ACE IIRC) only has a grade limit (5th IIRC).
So you will have ton of cadets who are 11 and a small handful who are only 10.
From what I read, the only mention of 5th grade is simply an opportunity for SEP (or ACE) cadets to mentor 5th graders (Adopt-A-School program) as they transition to 6th. Seems like 6th is the bottom line for actual membership. This is clarified under CAPR 51-1
So are we basically back to the "6th or 12" rule?
How long before "gifted" home schoolers start knocking on the doors again and we've got more 13 year old Spaatz cadets.
Having dealt with a few "gifted" 10 year olds in CAP, I personally believe it should be 12 with no exceptions. Academic equivalence is only a small part of being a successful cadet. The difference in maturity between 10 & 12, especially for cadets not in a regular school environment
is pretty significant.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2010, 10:16:20 PM
So are we basically back to the "6th or 12" rule?
How long before "gifted" home schoolers start knocking on the doors again and we've got more 13 year old Spaatz cadets.
Having dealt with a few "gifted" 10 year olds in CAP, I personally believe it should be 12 with no exceptions. Academic equivalence is only a small part of being a successful cadet. The difference in maturity between 10 & 12, especially for cadets not in a regular school environment
is pretty significant.
Not quite. In order for 6th grade to be the cutoff, you have to be enrolled in the SEP, which is through the school (think of it as JROTC). It does not apply to home schoolers.
It doesn't apply today...
I have to assume these cadets, few that they may be, are allowed to participate in all outside activities, including encampments in these wings. I'd not be excited about 10 year olds staying overnight during the activity I run.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2010, 10:16:20 PM
So are we basically back to the "6th or 12" rule?
How long before "gifted" home schoolers start knocking on the doors again and we've got more 13 year old Spaatz cadets.
Having dealt with a few "gifted" 10 year olds in CAP, I personally believe it should be 12 with no exceptions. Academic equivalence is oinvolv
I've said this before: it's disgusting and un-American to enroll young children in a paramilitary program AND it drives out older Cadets. No normal 18 year old wants to be involved in a program that has 12 year old members.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2010, 11:00:10 PM
It doesn't apply today...
I have to assume these cadets, few that they may be, are allowed to participate in all outside activities, including encampments in these wings. I'd not be excited about 10 year olds staying overnight during the activity I run.
I'm not excited about 12 year olds either, but it's part of the program and I do what I'm told. A cadet is a cadet. I see rank not age. And that's what you have to do.
10 year old not mature enough for encampment? Then he/she is not mature enough for Curry, and that is a requirement. Problem solved.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2010, 11:00:10 PM
It doesn't apply today...
I have to assume these cadets, few that they may be, are allowed to participate in all outside activities, including encampments in these wings. I'd not be excited about 10 year olds staying overnight during the activity I run.
ILWG has one of the largest SEP programs in the country IIRC....you need to be ready for it because it may be comming your way.
ILWG does not participate in the SEP, you are thinking about INWG, which currently has the largest unit.
Quote from: tsrup on June 30, 2010, 12:28:47 AM
10 year old not mature enough for encampment? Then he/she is not mature enough for Curry, and that is a requirement. Problem solved.
My 6 and 8 year old kids could likely master the basic facing movements, uniform wear and other requirements for Curry, especially with the benevolent encouragement of their friends in a home squadron. PT would be a non-issue as kids that age never
walk anywhere.
Being able to stay away from home for up to a week, knowing very few people and not having their home unit friends around would be a different story. between 10 & 12 there are big developmental changes, especially in the "opinion and independence gene".
So you get to add a new skill.....one where you teach younger cadets about sleep overs.
Point is...they are here....they cannot be excluded so you will have to deal with it.
Thankfully, at least for today, I can erect a "not my problem field" around this.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2010, 01:47:24 PM
Quote from: tsrup on June 30, 2010, 12:28:47 AM
10 year old not mature enough for encampment? Then he/she is not mature enough for Curry, and that is a requirement. Problem solved.
My 6 and 8 year old kids could likely master the basic facing movements, uniform wear and other requirements for Curry, especially with the benevolent encouragement of their friends in a home squadron. PT would be a non-issue as kids that age never walk anywhere.
Being able to stay away from home for up to a week, knowing very few people and not having their home unit friends around would be a different story. between 10 & 12 there are big developmental changes, especially in the "opinion and independence gene".
There are many developmental things that happen for a person between the times they are born and the time they are an "adult". Any one of these could be used as a "medical" reason why they should not be in Cadet Programs. The fact of the matter is that this is the cutoff we have to deal with.
As for the other part, even if a cadet can get curry, It doesn't mean that you have to sign the encampment application. By all means tell them why of course. But if you have a cadet that you don't think is mature enough for encampment, then don't send them. This applies ages 12 through 21.
Of course all of this is purely and academic exercise unless someone from one of these SEP programs wants to chime in on their experiences.
Quote from: tsrup on June 30, 2010, 10:29:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2010, 01:47:24 PM
Quote from: tsrup on June 30, 2010, 12:28:47 AM
10 year old not mature enough for encampment? Then he/she is not mature enough for Curry, and that is a requirement. Problem solved.
My 6 and 8 year old kids could likely master the basic facing movements, uniform wear and other requirements for Curry, especially with the benevolent encouragement of their friends in a home squadron. PT would be a non-issue as kids that age never walk anywhere.
Being able to stay away from home for up to a week, knowing very few people and not having their home unit friends around would be a different story. between 10 & 12 there are big developmental changes, especially in the "opinion and independence gene".
There are many developmental things that happen for a person between the times they are born and the time they are an "adult". Any one of these could be used as a "medical" reason why they should not be in Cadet Programs. The fact of the matter is that this is the cutoff we have to deal with.
As for the other part, even if a cadet can get curry, It doesn't mean that you have to sign the encampment application. By all means tell them why of course. But if you have a cadet that you don't think is mature enough for encampment, then don't send them. This applies ages 12 through 21.
Interestingly the "Young Marines Program" allows kids at age 8 to join the program (and remain in program until graduation from high school/age 18). Their web pages does show youngester at summer camp. I would guess that they probably know a bit more about youth development than many cap'ers.
ANY program and most activities can become age specific with appropriate planning.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 01, 2010, 03:21:27 AMI would guess that they probably know a bit more about youth development than many cap'ers.
Why would you assume that?
The YM's are a much smaller organization, and at least in my AOR, not very coherent.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2010, 03:43:54 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 01, 2010, 03:21:27 AMI would guess that they probably know a bit more about youth development than many cap'ers.
Why would you assume that?
The YM's are a much smaller organization, and at least in my AOR, not very coherent.
I too wish to be enlightened.
The answer can be found in this fellow's loathing of CAP. Criticism is fine...but those that can find no "good" or "benefit" in what CAP does are more a problem than the problems they point out.
Quote from: tsrup on July 01, 2010, 03:57:30 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2010, 03:43:54 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on July 01, 2010, 03:21:27 AMI would guess that they probably know a bit more about youth development than many cap'ers.
Why would you assume that?
The YM's are a much smaller organization, and at least in my AOR, not very coherent.
I too wish to be enlightened.
Indeed, the few YM Adult Leaders I've met were, shall we say, lacking.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 01, 2010, 04:14:14 AM
Indeed, the few YM Adult Leaders I've met were, shall we say, lacking.
I've only met a few, so I have nothing to go on.
Maybe that's why The Corps doesn't allow them to wear the uniform(?).
The few times I've encountered YM's they were wearing BDU's with a chestfull of ribbons.
Quote from: dogboy on June 29, 2010, 11:19:49 PM
I've said this before: it's disgusting and un-American to enroll young children in a paramilitary program AND it drives out older Cadets. No normal 18 year old wants to be involved in a program that has 12 year old members.
I'd agree with the 18-year-olds/12-year-olds interpersonal dynamic.
When I was a Boy Scout, the "older" Scouts wanted nothing to do with us former Cub Sprouts who had just come into the BSA.
Also...depends on your definition of "paramilitary." My grandmother, who comes from Old Order Amish stock, about had a heart attack when I joined the BSA. She said, "Oh, that looks so Army!"
When she saw me march in a Memorial Day parade she thought I was being trained to carry out an invasion. No kidding.
I think she equated it with the Hitlerjugend.
I think we equate maturity with age to much in CAP. I've met twelve year olds in CAP that are more mature and I would trust more than an 18 year old cadet or even some people I've met in the Air Force. I think twelve is a decent age to join anything below that is probably pushing it. As for the big age diference hopefully the older cadets are in higher leadership positions worrying more about the strategic and operational levels than working with airmen on the tactical leval.
Well, then you have some kid who never heard of CAP until they met a cadet when in high school. Then you have the very interesting situation of a 13 year old cadet officer trying to control a smug 16 year old C/AB. Not a pretty sight. Either the older cadet will leave or dream of their 18th birthday so they can go senior.
^ or, you know.
Both could step up and just work the program and actually learn something about the real world, where most people are destined to work
for a younger person at one time or another.
Try telling the DCoC that. All she does is bash her predecessor and proclaim how things are somehow "better." In response, most of the older cadet staff resigned and quit. One went senior, and asked to be completely separated from Cadet Programs.
EDIT: I used to have Cadet ITOs, but she stopped those as well... 2 1/2 hours a week is not nearly enough time to get 4 computers to work with a squadron of "technology-challenged" senior members.
I sympathize with the issue, and have similar problems I am dealing with, or have had to in the past, but the micro-specific problems
of squadrons with poor leadership should not define the situation for all.
For every one with a problem, there are probably 5 where the issue is dealt with directly and correctly.
In some cases the only answer is to vote with your feet until the change you feel is necessary comes.
Quote from: notaNCO forever on July 02, 2010, 01:42:11 AM
I think we equate maturity with age to much in CAP. I've met twelve year olds in CAP that are more mature and I would trust more than an 18 year old cadet or even some people I've met in the Air Force. I think twelve is a decent age to join anything below that is probably pushing it. As for the big age diference hopefully the older cadets are in higher leadership positions worrying more about the strategic and operational levels than working with airmen on the tactical leval.
Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on July 02, 2010, 02:04:59 AM
Well, then you have some kid who never heard of CAP until they met a cadet when in high school. Then you have the very interesting situation of a 13 year old cadet officer trying to control a smug 16 year old C/AB. Not a pretty sight. Either the older cadet will leave or dream of their 18th birthday so they can go senior.
I have experienced both of these phenomena. I have met a cadet member of CS, who will remain nameless, who has showed a very high level of maturity the whole time I have known this person. I've chatted with this cadet on-line and in person, and am quite impressed with their character.
Regarding the second part, I joined as a sophomore in HS, a week before I turned 15. I had cadet leaders younger than I was, and had no difficulties with the situation. That's not a lot different from AD NCOs working for junior officers younger than they are. In both instances, it is the responsibility of all levels of leadership to ensure that proprieties are maintained.