So my Cadets are back from their summer encampment. While they were there, they all shot on the indoor simulation range. One of my Cadets was the only Cadet to score "Expert" on the M-16/M-4. He was told by a Senior Member, who is also a Small Arms instructor in the Army, that he can now wear the small arms expert marksmanship ribbon on his Blues. All the cadet has to do, is bring in the score card that the instructor signed and put it in his file and all is well.
I disagree. I explained that is an award for those members that earned the award while in the military. He countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card. I told him that to me were awarded in writing by competent military authority meant it is listed on his DD 214, of which he doesn't have one.
Have I been interpeting the regs wrong for the last 17 years, that if a Cadet scores Expert on a simulation range, they can wear the ribbon?
You've got it right. Where do people come up with this stuff?
It used to be in the AFI... for handgun only. It was removed in the last revision.
Edited to add:
Note that this cite is no longer valid. Information only.Quote from: AFI36-2226 26 FEBRUARY 20032.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States
Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and
possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms
safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training,
students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force
Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if
they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification
is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun
AFQC training program.
Quote from: MIKE on June 27, 2010, 11:50:26 PM
It used to be in the AFI... for handgun only. It was removed in the last revision.
Edited to add: Note that this cite is no longer valid. Information only.
Quote from: AFI36-2226 26 FEBRUARY 20032.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States
Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and
possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms
safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training,
students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force
Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if
they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification
is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun
AFQC training program.
The current version of AFI 36-2226 deleted all mention of Civil Air Patrol. Handgun orientation is para 5.7. Rifle orientation is para 5.8.
Quote from: brasda91 on June 27, 2010, 11:42:17 PMHe countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card.
Signing the card only attests to the score. It does not in any way award a ribbon.
Thats right up there with Pilot wings for completeing all of your cadet O-Rides.
Quote from: brasda91 on June 27, 2010, 11:42:17 PM
So my Cadets are back from their summer encampment. While they were there, they all shot on the indoor simulation range. One of my Cadets was the only Cadet to score "Expert" on the M-16/M-4. He was told by a Senior Member, who is also a Small Arms instructor in the Army, that he can now wear the small arms expert marksmanship ribbon on his Blues. All the cadet has to do, is bring in the score card that the instructor signed and put it in his file and all is well.
I got the SAEMR as a cadet in 1975 - but I fired an actual M16 to get it, not a simulation. And in 1975 the USAF would award the ribbon to cadets, in writing.
Later at Mather AFB as an active duty 2LT I re-qualified with both M16 and .38 revolver (yes, a revolver) so I wear the ribbon with star.
I would just consider the paperwork side of it. Did they or did they not award the ribbon in writing. My guess would be for a simulation the answer would probably be no.
Quote from: brasda91 on June 27, 2010, 11:42:17 PMHe countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card. I told him that to me were awarded in writing by competent military authority meant it is listed on his DD 214, of which he doesn't have one.
I might buy that argument if the instructor was the final approving authority for that award for military members. If the only thing in writing authorizing the award was that score card, I'd be surprised. I assume that someone in that person's chain of command actually approves it BASED on the score card. Just like I'm sure that someone signs off on the completion of other prerequisites for military qualification badges.
The last time I scored expert on the M-16, the CATM instructor's signature on the score card was the only thing necessary for military personnel to update my records to show the award. If I remember correctly, the score card even had a box to check showing the award and a separate card with a bull's eye.
Years ago, CAP members attending training at what was then the 910th Airlift Group at Youngstown Air Reserve Base were allowed to go to the range and fire M-16s. A handful of the cadets and senior members scored expert and were awarded the ribbons without question. I remember because I was base liaison at the time. There was never a debate in the Ohio Wing whether they were entitled to wear the ribbon.
In a related matter, my wife wears an AFOUA on her CAP uniform because she was formally attached to an Air Force Reserve Wing during the award period and was authorized by the wing commander, who also formally recommended her (signed the form) for a Commander's Commendation Award.
Therefore, instead of debating the issue in this forum, the question needs to be bumped up the chain of command to the state director or Air Force Liasion and if necessary, Mrs. Parker at NHQ.
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 28, 2010, 01:09:59 AM
Quote from: brasda91 on June 27, 2010, 11:42:17 PMHe countered with they were awarded in writing by competent military authority due to the fact that the instructor signed the card.
Signing the card only attests to the score. It does not in any way award a ribbon.
In the USAF...you take the card to the MPF (Military Personnel Flight) and give it to the awards people who update the ribbon in the computer.....for USAF perposes...the signed card awards the ribbon.
Having said that....it is a very gray area in the regulations.
I would say NO it is not authorised for wear......I would ask National for their call.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 28, 2010, 02:43:49 AM
Thats right up there with Pilot wings for completeing all of your cadet O-Rides.
No....if the cadet (or SM) in question successfully completed the AF Small Arms Qualification Course with an expert rating....then they in fact earned it.
If however....they did some sort of abbreviated course and just gave the ribbon for the top shooter...then you would be correct.
*sigh* indoor simulation. When I was a cadet it was live ammunition outside in the heat and sun! We marched to the range, too - up hill - BOTH WAYS! >:D
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2010, 04:42:36 PM...the signed card awards the ribbon.
No, it serves as
proof for award of the ribbon. There's an important distinction. If it was the awarding authority, all you'd have to do is file the card.
You may not wear (CAPM 39-1 5-4.) that which you may not be awarded (CAPR 39-3 SECTION A 3. b.).
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 28, 2010, 05:14:37 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2010, 04:42:36 PM...the signed card awards the ribbon.
No, it serves as proof for award of the ribbon. There's an important distinction. If it was the awarding authority, all you'd have to do is file the card.
Which is exactly what they did before they had the computer system.
I still had my first Expert AFF 522 (.38) in my UPRG when I retired. My second one was entered into the system when I qualed expert on the M-16 but I kept the card.
CAPR 39-3 SECTION A 3.b." Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for wear on the U.S. Air Force uniform may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority to a member for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies."
Cadets that fire at encampments or during CAP events do not qualify at all to have that ribbon.
Well there are two sides to this problem.
1) Can the USAF award this ribbon to non USAF members.
2) What is the actual intent to section A 3.b?
On the first issue.....it is kind of gray.
AFI36-2226 only says "personnel" with out stating if they are air force, army, or what ever...but defers to 36-2803.
AFI 36-2803 specifies "Air Force Personnel"...which on the surface would exclude CAP....but elsewhere it does include USAFA and ROTC cadets which again fall into a middle ground which "COULD" hold open the door for CAP personnel.
On the CAP side of things:
By one read of section A 3.b one could argue that the air medals awarded to the sub chasers during WWII would not be authorised for wear by CAP members.
So....is the INTENT of the regulation to make sure that you had to show competent authority that you earned them.....or that they did not want the services to award CAP members medals?
For the OP......to earn the ribbon one must qualify expert on the USAF live fire AFQT or the live fire Small Arms/Rifle Orientation course....the VATS system does not count.
And for Hawk
Quote5.20.2. The AF Form 522 is the basis for the SAEMR award. The individual awarded the SAEMR is responsible for bringing the AF Form 522 to the MPE Awards and Decorations section. The MPE enters the award on the individuals automated personnel record.
The signed card is the authority to wear the ribbon.
Quote from: MIKE on June 28, 2010, 05:26:48 PM
You may not wear (CAPM 39-1 5-4.) that which you may not be awarded (CAPR 39-3 SECTION A 3. b.).
CAP doesn't have any say over what awards other organizations may give anyone. It can certainly restrict what can be worn on a CAP uniform though and there is a conflict between the uniform reg and the awards reg on this issue. I assert that the uniform reg is the ultimate authority over what is worn.
But, that seems to be a moot point in this case, since the military regulation itself doesn't allow for giving this award to CAP members.
wait wait wait......
39-3 clearly states that it must be awarded for "service performed IN any branch...."
So no, cadets (even if firing the AFQT) are not "performing" it IN the United States Air Force.....
They were nice enough to allow cadets to fire something not everyone gets to....take some pictures...smile...tell all your friends...but put on expert marksmen as a cadet?? Give me break.....
Quote from: NCRblues on June 29, 2010, 12:03:15 AM
wait wait wait......
39-3 clearly states that it must be awarded for "service performed IN any branch...."
So no, cadets (even if firing the AFQT) are not "performing" it IN the United States Air Force.....
They were nice enough to allow cadets to fire something not everyone gets to....take some pictures...smile...tell all your friends...but put on expert marksmen as a cadet?? Give me break.....
So.....you going to tell the sub chasers to take off their Air Medals?
Those were awarded to CAP members for service TO the Army Air Forces while IN the Civil Air Patrol.
So....we have a precedent....any takers?
For the record.....I don't think the USAF CAN award the SAEMR to CAP members...and if they could I would not encourage CAP to allow for it either.....but as a philosophical discussion....it must be considered within the larger scope of thing....and that requires us to examine how the WWII service CAP members were awarded their medals and if they can wear them in light of today's regulations.
The other thing being missed is that the time most cadets spend on a range, live or otherwise, during an encampment, generally does not meet the total requirements for a respective marksmanship award.
One session with a good grouping does not always a "Marksman" make - in the Navy its a whole-day process that includes classes, live fire, and several SAMT sessions (or so I have been told).
At Air Force BMT it's a all day thing you need 43 out of 50 shots and ten of those shots are with a gas mask on
Back in the day, during AF BMT you had to shoot a 100 out of 100 to qualify for the SAEMR. IIRC, once you got to your first assignment and went to qualify again, you had different rules for qualifying.
I remember a couple of CAP members who had this ribbon and say they qualified for it at an ANG unit whose wing king signed off on it...but this has been some years ago.
Remember, too, that CAP members were awarded Air Medals in WWII but we aren't eligible for them now...
Quote from: CyBorg on June 30, 2010, 12:07:29 AMRemember, too, that CAP members were awarded Air Medals in WWII but we aren't eligible for them now...
Says who? Air Force eligibility criteria still reflects "civilians" for things like Air Medals. Check it out yourself by looking at the AFPC Fact Sheet on the Medal. Instead of 'puttsying' around with things like a Homeland Security-related mission ribbon, the folks at NHQ should be looking to see what it takes to get the medal awarded again.
Then they should see what would qualify CAP personnel for some other medals when we are functioning as the "Auxiliary" during Air Force-assigned missions....at the very least, why not award CAP personnel Air Force Civilian awards and decorations.
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
I think what's being missed here is the "indoor simulation" range. Sounds like a FATS machine to me. There is no live fire involved, therefore, no ribbon, even for regular AF personnel. However, that's just my .02.
FWIW, I have qualified as expert on rifle and pistol (1911) in the Marines, expert rifle in the Army, and expert with rifle, carbine (M4), pistol (actually, 2, the M9 and M11) and MP5K-PDW. Other quals include shotgun, M60, M249, M203, AT4, LAAW, maybe some other stuff. Not to mention 19 years of assorted weapons quals as a civvie cop. All required live fire. I've also spent a lot of time on FATS simulators, too. In my experience, a qual course requires live fire.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 30, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
You are reading too much into that statement. It was intended only for former military personnel in terms of the awards and decorations they earned while in military service...especially in cases of another post in CAP Talk related to stolen valor.
If a medal was awarded by "competent (American) military authority," it means that that "authority" recognizes the merit calling for the award...to a civilian or military individual.
Actually, I'm not reading anything into anything. There is a clear conflict in the text of two different CAP regulations relating to this issue. One clearly says that you had to have been in the service to wear any military award on your CAP uniform while the other has no such prior service restriction and as written would allow civilians who have earned military awards (which is certainly allowable under DoD and service regulations for some awards) to wear them on a CAP uniform.
Personally, I think it is absurd that CAP would want to discriminate against civilians who have earned military awards and have the proper documentation to back it up. But, that is what one CAP reg says.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 30, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 30, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.
Sub chasers weren't awarded their medals under
current rules.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 30, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.
As a military medal, awarded by competent authority, it would be worn as such, and be higher in precedence than any CAP award.
Quote from: CAPR 39-3, para 3.a.a. The CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual.
That pretty well covers the Air Medal, and any other wartime awards.
Y'all are trying way too hard to pick fly poop outta pepper here.
There are only "three" pieces of information required in determining if a Civil Air Patrol Cadet is eligible (entitled) to wear the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR); first, who has the "authority" to award the ribbon; second, what are the award requirements; and third, can a CAP Cadet meet (fulfill) those requirements.
The Authority; AFI36-2226, 24 February 2009, Combat Arms Program tells us in paragraph 5.20.3, "AFI36-2803, Individual and Unit Awards and Decorations, prescribes authority for the award of this ribbon."
The Awarding Authority (AFI36-2803) lists the requirements as follows; awarded "to Air Force personnel, including Reservists who, after 1 January 1963, qualify as "expert" with either the M16 rifle or issue handgun on the Air Force qualification course or the appropriate orientation course prescribed in AFIs, or who satisfactorily complete the Combat Rifle Program. (See note 7.)"
"Note 7. Award ribbon only once no matter how many times an individual scores "expert." Add bronze service star to the ribbon for those personnel who, after 22 June 1972, meet the award criteria with both the M16 rifle and issue handgun. Add only one star regardless of the number of times a person qualifies with both weapons. Use AF Form 522, USAF Ground Weapons Training Data or letter from the Small Arms Marksmanship Monitor as the source document for this award."
Consequently, from these two source documents, we can conclude that an individual must be on extended active duty (EAD) or a member of the Air Force Reserve to qualify for the award of the SAEMR. Therefore, unless a Cadet is serving on EAD or in the Air Force Reserve, it is not possible to meet the prerequisites for award.
I know some will disagree by stating we are the official Air Force Auxiliary and fall under the larger umbrella of the Air Force; however, if you noticed in the AFI how the Air Force had to explicitly mention "Reservists" but not it's auxiliary, this would not be questioned.
Quote from: Hawk200 on June 30, 2010, 06:23:53 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 30, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.
Sub chasers weren't awarded their medals under current rules.
OH! YOU DON'T want to use that logic! :o
Quote from: SarDragon on June 30, 2010, 06:28:58 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2010, 05:57:13 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on June 30, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
QuoteSays who?
The CAP awards regulation which says you can't wear a military award unless you earned it while part of the military. On the other hand, the uniform regulation says you could wear it since it was awarded by competent military authority.
So by that regulation....all the sub chasers need to take off their Air Medals.
As a military medal, awarded by competent authority, it would be worn as such, and be higher in precedence than any CAP award.
Quote from: CAPR 39-3, para 3.a.a. The CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual.
That pretty well covers the Air Medal, and any other wartime awards.
Y'all are trying way too hard to pick fly poop outta pepper here.
I missed that one....thanks Dave...you ruined my whole philosophical stand point.
Okay......there is no gray area in the regs. You must be IN the military when you earn the award for you to be able to wear it later in CAP. This does not apply to our sub chasers due to para 3.a.
Thank you for your contibutions. I agree that you have to be in the AF or earned it while in. I think part of the problem is some of the newer members have not been around long enough to understand the intent of the reg's and manuals.
I advised the Cadet he couldn't wear it, until he earns it on active duty! ;D
Well another problem is that people AD and CAP just don't know their own regulations.
An AD CATMs instructor and CAP member tells a cadet you can wear it.....well that is pretty strong competent authority to go ahead and wear it.
The SM in question was wrong on two parts (If I read the regulations and AFIs correctly).
1) The USAF can't award it to non USAF personnel.
2) Even if awarded CAP regulations don't allow you to wear it anyways.
The only question is are we in fact reading the regulations and AFIs correctly.
The wording is slippery enough that the official interpretation of them would allow room if the appropriate authorities wanted to do so.
For example.....the CATM AFI allows ROTC and USAFA cadets to wear it.....policy....may allow for the USAF to extend that definition to include CAP and JROTC cadets as well. By extention the awards and decorations AFI may be stretched enough to include JROTC and CAP personnel in their definition of "Air Force Personnel, including reservists" because they already allow it for ROTC and USAFA cadets (who are in some other gray area between "real" Air Force Personnel and straight up civilians).
As I said before......I agree with your interpretation of the regs....it is NOT allowed unless you were a blue suit wearing Air force member (ANG, RES, AD, ROTC or USAFA Cadet). However, I can also see where there is a lot of confusion out there as well.
We also never determined if the cadet actually complete the full requirements or this was a typical encampment "good grouping" with uncharged laser guns.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2010, 05:52:00 PM
We also never determined if the cadet actually complete the full requirements or this was a typical encampment "good grouping" with uncharged laser guns.
Not going to go there....let's assume for the sake of argument we are talking about someone who completed the live fire AFQT or the live fire orientation courses as the AFI clearly states that simulated weapons systems do not count for either qualification or the SAEMR.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2010, 06:08:34 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2010, 05:52:00 PM
We also never determined if the cadet actually complete the full requirements or this was a typical encampment "good grouping" with uncharged laser guns.
Not going to go there....let's assume for the sake of argument we are talking about someone who completed the live fire AFQT or the live fire orientation courses as the AFI clearly states that simulated weapons systems do not count for either qualification or the SAEMR.
Information provided in the original post stated that the cadet fired on a simulator. It's relevant. Either way, the cadet doesn't get the ribbon, and the senior that told him he could wear it needs to brush up on his pubs.
Throwing my two pennies in, the score sheet showing that you scored expert is all you need to take to the MPF to get your ribbon and/or star for the AF. As far as how that applies to CAP, who knows...
For anyone who's interested, the current criteria for the Air Medal and the Aerial Achievement Medal is found in the USCENTAF Decoration Guidebook located here:
http://www.afwriting.com/guides/USCENTAF_DecGuide_Dec04.doc
AF members have to fill out their Form 1 showing how many combat missions you've flown in the AOR for the AM or combat/combat support missions for the AAM. It looks like it would be difficult for a non-AF member to be awarded the AM unless there was a single qualifying event that was combat related.
Is the Air Medal a "combat-only" award?
I had thought the criteria was "Meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight."
Quote from: CyBorg on July 06, 2010, 08:46:35 PM
Is the Air Medal a "combat-only" award?
I had thought the criteria was "Meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight."
That's the broad criteria but the USCENTAF has specified in the guidebook what determines the achievement:
"AMs are not awarded for peacetime sustained operational activities and flights."
"Missions must have been flown within the USCENTCOM Area of Responsibility (AOR) and entered CFACC designated hostile airspace."
Quote from: CyBorg on July 06, 2010, 08:46:35 PM
Is the Air Medal a "combat-only" award?
I had thought the criteria was "Meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight."
Today's AM criteria have little relevance to the ones awarded to CAP members 60-some years ago. The folks in charge at that time made the determination, and they were awarded.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 06, 2010, 08:17:27 PMFor anyone who's interested, the current criteria for the Air Medal and the Aerial Achievement Medal is found in the USCENTAF Decoration Guidebook located here:
http://www.afwriting.com/guides/USCENTAF_DecGuide_Dec04.doc
AF members have to fill out their Form 1 showing how many combat missions you've flown in the AOR for the AM or combat/combat support missions for the AAM. It looks like it would be difficult for a non-AF member to be awarded the AM unless there was a single qualifying event that was combat related.
Please note....that is how CENTAF is awarding it.....not how the USAF could award it to CAP if we ever got into the supporting a war operations.