Is CAP involved with this? Seems like the prefect mission for the Archer System.
No, the closest Archer is in Texas.
Quote from: PHall on June 13, 2010, 03:57:46 AM
Is CAP involved with this? Seems like the prefect mission for the Archer System.
Hmm I can remember at last year's region SAREX competition, the expert staff stated they weren't taking the system out because it was cloudy and the system didn't work (well?). So I guess when the sun comes out they could use it. >:D
Seems to me that helicopters are the way to go at that scene due to the deep valleys along the rivers banks.
You would have thought that the National Forest Service would have had some means of alerting those at least in the campground of potential flooding. :(
Also from an emergency comm prespective a simple Family Radio Service FRS 1/2 watt portable(s) ($10.00 a piece), on FRS channel 1 (462.5625 mhz, no pl/dpl), could be a simple method of calling out for help to airborne resources (include a CAP hasty fly over) to pinpoint where helicopters & ground rescue teams need to go.
There's basically no cellphone coverage in the area but they are trucking in portable cell sites for just in case emergency comms. Additionally CAP with appropriate all band public radio communications capabilities (perhaps on the GA 8 or even a few of our C182's, C172's , add a few antennas), could give CAP the mission of radio relay, high above the scene.
It's extremely doubtful that the average camper, recreational hiker, fisherman/woman, hunter, aren't going to go out and buy a $500.00 PLB for "just in case" situations. However, it is likley that a simple $10.00 FRS radio would be useful for comms among them as well as emergency comms to search aircraft if it became necessary using the amateur radio wilderness comm portocol, or when they hear a low flying aircraft.
Perhaps again CAP needs to look at advocating as well practicing with simple comm devices that the general public would more likely use (or could be informed to use).
RM
I work this area of Arkansas. Flying the river by CAP would be beneficial. This part of the State is NOT deep valleys but more rolling hills. What it boils down to is the Sheriff making the call. The National Guard has had helicopter on scene but the cost is huge. This is a VERY rural county. The Sheriff has been there for 40 years. Yes I said 40. This is an election year and he actually has this on his signs.
This is where we train. This is our backyard. RM please don't back seat drive this one. IF the Sheriff calls, we will be there.
In Arkansas the Sheriff is basically the king of the County. What he wants to happen is the only thing that will happen. Even though most of this area is in a National Forest, the Sheriff still calls the shots.
Archer? you mean that hunk of garbage we tote around in the g8?
Com geek did you flunk out of the Archer school?
I may have. Archer dosent work. Why do you think CAP is going to scrap the program? Its a waste of time and money. Would have been better off buying FLIR pods instead...
Quote from: CommGeek on June 14, 2010, 04:13:35 AM
I may have. Archer dosent work. Why do you think CAP is going to scrap the program? Its a waste of time and money. Would have been better off buying FLIR pods instead...
Care to expand on your thoughts?
I worked similar systems in the military and got magical results compared to regular imagery. The key is trained operators/image interpreters. I heard somewhere that each flight hour needs about four hours on the ground to process (review) the imagery. You are not going to get results while in the air...
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 13, 2010, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: PHall on June 13, 2010, 03:57:46 AM
Is CAP involved with this? Seems like the prefect mission for the Archer System.
Hmm I can remember at last year's region SAREX competition, the expert staff stated they weren't taking the system out because it was cloudy and the system didn't work (well?). So I guess when the sun comes out they could use it. >:D
Seems to me that helicopters are the way to go at that scene due to the deep valleys along the rivers banks.
You would have thought that the National Forest Service would have had some means of alerting those at least in the campground of potential flooding. :(
Also from an emergency comm prespective a simple Family Radio Service FRS 1/2 watt portable(s) ($10.00 a piece), on FRS channel 1 (462.5625 mhz, no pl/dpl), could be a simple method of calling out for help to airborne resources (include a CAP hasty fly over) to pinpoint where helicopters & ground rescue teams need to go.
There's basically no cellphone coverage in the area but they are trucking in portable cell sites for just in case emergency comms. Additionally CAP with appropriate all band public radio communications capabilities (perhaps on the GA 8 or even a few of our C182's, C172's , add a few antennas), could give CAP the mission of radio relay, high above the scene.
It's extremely doubtful that the average camper, recreational hiker, fisherman/woman, hunter, aren't going to go out and buy a $500.00 PLB for "just in case" situations. However, it is likley that a simple $10.00 FRS radio would be useful for comms among them as well as emergency comms to search aircraft if it became necessary using the amateur radio wilderness comm portocol, or when they hear a low flying aircraft.
Perhaps again CAP needs to look at advocating as well practicing with simple comm devices that the general public would more likely use (or could be informed to use).
RM
There you go confusing the issue with logic >:D
I heard the idea about FRS batted around for a long time but never heard anything more. I would add Marine radio capability as well. While it may be rarely used outside of coastal regions I think CAP aircraft should be capable on any frequencies likely to be used by people in distress. (You just never know when a particular aircraft will be in a particular place and Murphy always gets a vote) DF capabilities on those frequencies would be icing on the cake. That said with proper antenna placement wing null could offer some capability.
Why not ground teams? There's only one person missing, and judging by the volunteers I saw on television, looks like our trained ground teams would be good for this job.
Okay, so there isn't an aircraft. But still. GT would be prepared, knows how to search.
YMMV
Quote from: cap235629 on June 13, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
I work this area of Arkansas. Flying the river by CAP would be beneficial. This part of the State is NOT deep valleys but more rolling hills. What it boils down to is the Sheriff making the call. The National Guard has had helicopter on scene but the cost is huge. This is a VERY rural county. The Sheriff has been there for 40 years. Yes I said 40. This is an election year and he actually has this on his signs.
This is where we train. This is our backyard. RM please don't back seat drive this one. IF the Sheriff calls, we will be there.
In Arkansas the Sheriff is basically the king of the County. What he wants to happen is the only thing that will happen. Even though most of this area is in a National Forest, the Sheriff still calls the shots.
So has THAT PARTICULAR SHERIFF EVER asked for CAP's help in the past?
Still looks to me like helicopters are the way to go, not any fixed wing aircraft.
Perhaps CAP'ers could help the Red Cross at base camp by handing out water, food, etc. It isn't what you play & train for but would still be very helpful
RM
The last known missing person was found at 10:15 AM
Does CAP not assist in Floods? I know we do SAR but doesnt that include Floods?
SAR does not include floods, but Emergency Services, which includes SAR, DR, HLS, and a host of other sins things, does.
Yes, CAP does help at floods WHEN CALLED.
Quote from: PHall on June 13, 2010, 03:57:46 AM
Is CAP involved with this? Seems like the prefect mission for the Archer System.
Why would this be the perfect mission for Archer? I don't see the connection.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 16, 2010, 02:43:15 AM
Quote from: PHall on June 13, 2010, 03:57:46 AM
Is CAP involved with this? Seems like the prefect mission for the Archer System.
Why would this be the perfect mission for Archer? I don't see the connection.
Finding bodies mixed in the the brush. This is "supposedly" one of the things the system supposed to do very well.
I've never heard that. Given that the bodies would be wearing all sorts of different types and colors of clothing I don't see how ARCHER could identify anything as human. Is the resolution even good enough to pick up something as small as an individual human body, as opposed to something the size of a crashed airplane?
I don't think its a matter of pickin out "body" as much as "something that doesn't match the surroundings". From what I've seen, yes the resolution is that good (depending on altitude, lighting, etc.).
After a flood like this, the whole area is going to looked mixed up and out of place and nothing will match the surroundings.
here is the issue. in 'Anomaly' mode it picks out everything that 'dosent belong' I have argued this since the beginning that that is a really bad idea. Now your going to have to legally investigate all the old cars,washing machines, trash, and crap in the woods. you really have no idea how much of this trash is out there...especially after a flash flood. Are we prepared to open that can of worms?
Quote from: Al Sayre on June 16, 2010, 06:29:51 PM
I don't think its a matter of pickin out "body" as much as "something that doesn't match the surroundings". From what I've seen, yes the resolution is that good (depending on altitude, lighting, etc.).
Are you talking about the Black & White sensor or the HSI sensor?
From what I have been told by real live Archer operators, the system does a pretty good job of separating biologicals (bodies, human and animal) from organics (plants). And inorganics (i.e. those washing machines) show up pretty good too.
Quote from: PHall on June 17, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
From what I have been told by real live Archer operators, the system does a pretty good job of separating biologicals (bodies, human and animal) from organics (plants). And inorganics (i.e. those washing machines) show up pretty good too.
Dadgum washing machines. ;)
Quote from: HGjunkie on June 17, 2010, 02:56:00 AM
Quote from: PHall on June 17, 2010, 02:53:16 AM
From what I have been told by real live Archer operators, the system does a pretty good job of separating biologicals (bodies, human and animal) from organics (plants). And inorganics (i.e. those washing machines) show up pretty good too.
Dadgum washing machines. ;)
You would be amazed how much an old washing machine or refrigerator, strewn across an hillside after being pushed off the side of a road, looks like aircraft wreckage from the air.
We have more then a couple around here (Southern California) that have been visited by ground teams just to verify what they really are. And hopfully they got a red or orange "X" painted on them so we won't waste our time on them again sometime in the future.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 13, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
This is where we train. This is our backyard. RM please don't back seat drive this one. IF the Sheriff calls, we will be there.
In Arkansas the Sheriff is basically the king of the County. What he wants to happen is the only thing that will happen. Even though most of this area is in a National Forest, the Sheriff still calls the shots.
Looks like the local/district amateur radio ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Services) group were major players in providing communications support for searchers.
See the ARRL release:
http://www.arrl.org/news/amateurs-in-arkansas-provide-support-to-local-authorities-after-flood-kills-20
Unfortuanately, in CAP ES, there's a lot of talkers with all those BDU's uniforms & green flight suits, and black boots, "playing" around in their fantasy world of military make believe >:(. So the hams (that get a training program of about 3 to 5 formal hours) with basically orange vests & ARES ball caps get called to "get the job done" :clap: and CAP'ers sit on the side line waiting to be called. :(
I think for CAP in that area it should be a wakeup call to start a good ES outreach program. Those of you that really think you are going to be called because you/we are CAP are living in a make believe world :(
RM
My area is the same way. The Sheriff owns the bat, the ball, and the playground. You don't play unless he sez so. A while back, CAP and the Sheriff's Dept didn't get along, and we didn't get to do a whole lot beyond ELT searches. The relationship has improved, but it's still their call regarding CAP involvement. It sux, but that's life in the big city.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 18, 2010, 03:17:28 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on June 13, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
This is where we train. This is our backyard. RM please don't back seat drive this one. IF the Sheriff calls, we will be there.
In Arkansas the Sheriff is basically the king of the County. What he wants to happen is the only thing that will happen. Even though most of this area is in a National Forest, the Sheriff still calls the shots.
Looks like the local/district amateur radio ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Services) group were major players in providing communications support for searchers.
See the ARRL release:
http://www.arrl.org/news/amateurs-in-arkansas-provide-support-to-local-authorities-after-flood-kills-20
Unfortuanately, in CAP ES, there's a lot of talkers with all those BDU's uniforms & green flight suits, and black boots, "playing" around in their fantasy world of military make believe >:(. So the hams (that get a training program of about 3 to 5 formal hours) with basically orange vests & ARES ball caps get called to "get the job done" :clap: and CAP'ers sit on the side line waiting to be called. :(
I think for CAP in that area it should be a wakeup call to start a good ES outreach program. Those of you that really think you are going to be called because you/we are CAP are living in a make believe world :(
RM
RM
You still prove your ignorance with every post. ARES was called in by the Sheriff because they needed COMMUNICATIONS Support. CAP has Comm Capabilities but it is not a primary ES mission.
If you really want to see how CAP fits in in Arkansas, click here Arkansas Emergency Operations Plan (http://www.adem.arkansas.gov/documents/Planning/AREOPinfo.htm)
CAP is listed in this plan more times than I care to count. You have no idea how things are done here so please just shut up.
I have been active in 2 wings during my career. Arkansas is hands down more integrated with Emergency Services than Massachusetts and from what I can see in surrounding states, the same applies.
Respect those that do answer the call, whatever it may be, and shut up.
Quote from: cap235629 on June 18, 2010, 03:27:23 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on June 18, 2010, 03:17:28 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on June 13, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
This is where we train. This is our backyard. RM please don't back seat drive this one. IF the Sheriff calls, we will be there.
In Arkansas the Sheriff is basically the king of the County. What he wants to happen is the only thing that will happen. Even though most of this area is in a National Forest, the Sheriff still calls the shots.
Looks like the local/district amateur radio ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Services) group were major players in providing communications support for searchers.
See the ARRL release:
http://www.arrl.org/news/amateurs-in-arkansas-provide-support-to-local-authorities-after-flood-kills-20
Unfortuanately, in CAP ES, there's a lot of talkers with all those BDU's uniforms & green flight suits, and black boots, "playing" around in their fantasy world of military make believe >:(. So the hams (that get a training program of about 3 to 5 formal hours) with basically orange vests & ARES ball caps get called to "get the job done" :clap: and CAP'ers sit on the side line waiting to be called. :(
I think for CAP in that area it should be a wakeup call to start a good ES outreach program. Those of you that really think you are going to be called because you/we are CAP are living in a make believe world :(
RM
RM
You still prove your ignorance with every post. ARES was called in by the Sheriff because they needed COMMUNICATIONS Support. CAP has Comm Capabilities but it is not a primary ES mission.
If you really want to see how CAP fits in in Arkansas, click here Arkansas Emergency Operations Plan (http://www.adem.arkansas.gov/documents/Planning/AREOPinfo.htm)
CAP is listed in this plan more times than I care to count. You have no idea how things are done here so please just shut up.
I have been active in 2 wings during my career. Arkansas is hands down more integrated with Emergency Services than Massachusetts and from what I can see in surrounding states, the same applies.
Respect those that do answer the call, whatever it may be, and shut up.
Your the guy who made the original post about your back yard.
BTW I'm a ham operator also & basically turn away doing things with the hams most of the time since I really have more of an interest in CAP. IF I didn't I would have a lot of emergency support activities to assist ARES in. So I DO RESPECT THE HAMS (cause I'm one of them also)!!!
My whole point is it is a real challenge getting some (maybe many) officials to recognize what CAP ES can help them with. Sometimes we may have to start small with simple things like base camp support
e.g. handing out water bottles. Also more Joint type exercises with the locals. Once they have a "trust" in CAP we have a better chance of being called.
The entire ES uniform subject has already been brought up in CA wing and again the use of BDU's may be a detriment to more involvement with more local civilian type emergencies. That question does have to be brought to the table, no matter how painful it might be for some CAP'ers who love those BDU's :angel:
Again I'd like to point out that YOU stated that was your "playing area", unfortunately as far as that sheriff was concerned you weren't a "player" in this operation.
RM