Looking around on the web, I just noticed that CLC is now being offered online. Members wishing to take it via this option sign up by putting their name on a waiting list pending enough students for the class. I'm excited at the hopes of finally taking CLC (and completing Level III), as this course seems to be quite rare in my area.
If anyone is interested...
http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/online_courses__exams.cfm (http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/online_courses__exams.cfm)
Quote
National Corporate Learning Course Sign-up
Please use this form to sign-up for an upcoming online Corporate Learning Course.
The course will take 8 weeks to complete, and is writing intensive through online discussion. A group will start and end as a cohort. The course was designed to help members could not attend a traditional face-to-face course.
Each course will start when a cohort is put together. If you sign up, you will be placed on a waiting list until the next course opens up.
If it is done correctly, it might be a good idea. I was not impressed at all when I went thru the class room CLC, I didn't come out of that weekend with any additional knowledge that would make me a better Field grade officer when I make major.
I have to admit, I like the idea of offering CLC online. With upper PD courses, there are distance learning alternatives, so why not for SLS or CLC? While in-person courses do offer great networking opportunities, there are many situations where an in-person class may not be possible.
Considering that there are often substantial travel/hotel costs (not to forget potential time off from work), I hear a lot of members say that this prevents them from participation and further progression in CAP. Cost tends to be the #1 detractor.
Also, considering that everything in/out of CAP tends to be scheduled on the weekends, scheduling can be somewhat difficult with several activities/organizations fighting for the same weekend. Additionally, by offering it online, it eliminates the potential religious conflict (be it Saturday or Sunday) that a weekend courses may have.
In my opinion...
- Should CLC be offered in person? Sure, some people prefer in-person learning.
- Should it also be offered online? Yes, not everyone can attend the in-person courses, for whatever personal reasons.
I would prefer the local wing or unit be more flexible in the offer than remove another of the quickly shrinking places that
commanders can actually instruct their members in person.
My wing offers 3-4 every year - that's 9-12 opportunities to get into a class in the three years between Capt. and Maj, and probably 20+ since they joined, not including surrounding wings.
If yo can't find a weekend to do an SLS/CLC in 5 years with 20 opportunities, how much of an asset are you to CAP to start with? CAP is slowly turning into a correspondence course, with less and less need to ever show up to a unit meeting. This is not a good thing.
I see your point and agree to a certain extent.
I think these courses (TLC, SLS, CLC, UCC) should be offered quite a bit more frequently than they currently are, and in each Group throughout the Wing, not just in the same far off place everytime.
In smaller Wings (such as I remember in NER), offering it once or twice is not a big deal, but in larger Wings, there is quite a bit more difficulty.
In a Wing such as FL, they are usually offered once or twice a year, but usually in in the same general area, and don't seem to be promoted at all. It has been several years since certain Groups have had any PD courses at all, not because they don't want them, but just because they are never offered.
If a member can hunt down one of the few opportunities offered in the Wing, they can expect to pay $500+ or so in travel/hotel costs. Surrounding Wings? Increase that $500 to perhaps around $1,000. Many members can find a much better use for that money. This does not mean that they are not extremely involved/active in CAP, this just means that they might not want to spend that money on travel/lodging costs or have to drive/fly several hundred miles each way.
Quote from: DBlair on May 30, 2010, 01:17:15 AM
If a member can hunt down one of the few opportunities offered in the Wing, they can expect to pay $500+ or so in travel/hotel costs. Surrounding Wings? Increase that $500 to perhaps around $1,000. Many members can find a much better use for that money. This does not mean that they are not extremely involved/active in CAP, this just means that they might not want to spend that money on travel/lodging costs or have to drive/fly several hundred miles each way.
I hear about these nightmare scenarios all the time - $500 travel, $50 admission fees...
It shouldn't cost the member
anything, certainly not overnight travel money. That's a wing problem that needs to be fixed in the wing.
Ours are generally 1 - N, 1 Mid, 1 S. 1-2 hours travel tops, and I try not to charge anything for the seminar, though someone always sneaks in copies on me.
1 a year per state is unacceptable.
Quote from: DBlair on May 30, 2010, 12:26:10 AMAlso, considering that everything in/out of CAP tends to be scheduled on the weekends, scheduling can be somewhat difficult with several activities/organizations fighting for the same weekend.
I work weekends, so this describes me perfectly. I've slowly, over the three 1/2 years I've been in CAP, seen SAREXs becoming long weekends allowing me to occasionally participate. Every time an SLS or CLC or Wing Conference is offered, surprise surprise, it's on the weekend. I know that MOST members work during the week, so this makes sense. Those available on the weekends aren't the only ones that make it work, however, many work when others are off. I'm quite pleased to see that opportunities in SAREXs are starting to pull away from the SAT/SUN only thing, but PD courses must follow suit as well. I hate online (done it for a college course, it sucks), but if it's what's available to me it's better then nothing.
Quote from: DrJbdm on May 29, 2010, 08:49:35 PM
If it is done correctly, it might be a good idea. I was not impressed at all when I went thru the class room CLC, I didn't come out of that weekend with any additional knowledge that would make me a better Field grade officer when I make major.
The current CLC or the old one? The old one was a total waste of time.
I would like to see unit commanders in the approval/selection process for this and the other online courses like this... (SLS, OBC)
I had a blast at CLC in 2005, and helped put on an SLS as part of a PD weekend in 2007, that the reviews overwhelmingly were positive, the attendees enjoyed it, got something out of it, etc. There's always a few that complain but even the complaints were pretty lame.
Unit commanders are in the loop on for the classroom course as the Form 17/31/CA150 is used at least in our case, for the enrollment. (Form #'s noted for widest possible example)
I just took my CLC a few weeks ago, it was not to different than my SLS class. I am glad to see it online for those of us who live miles upon miles away from the nearest class. :'(
I see they are using Google Docs for this. This could be a really good thing for our organization!
I just applied for the on-line course.
For me I live in St John's County Florida and most of the CLC I have seen hosted are over in the panhandle or way down south. I am currently a SLS/UCC Director and was told the reason they will not let me run a CLC with it is because they are not going to send instructors for CLC when only one person needs it referring to me.
I am sure I am not the only person in the area that needs CLC heck I can count two others in my Squadron who need CLC but I'm not going to fight with Wing Prof. Development to get the course.
I definitely prefer to see these courses done in person, but at least the online alternative looks like it's reasonably rigorous. It's not just a click-through PPT with quiz at the end.
I live in a big Wing (NY), and I don't think we offer these courses as regularly as we should. It's difficult to find high quality directors who will make the weekend worthwhile. I'd rather have too few PD courses than have someone throw together a subpar implementation that's a waste of time for everyone involved.
And unlike Eclipse, my experience has been that all of these courses require travel and overnight stays. New York is a very big state, and long drives are the norm, especially for the edges of the state (Jamestown, Plattsburgh, Eastern end of Long Island, etc.) I imagine California, Texas, and Florida have similar experiences.
Quote from: dwb on June 01, 2010, 12:45:07 PM
And unlike Eclipse, my experience has been that all of these courses require travel and overnight stays. New York is a very big state, and long drives are the norm, especially for the edges of the state (Jamestown, Plattsburgh, Eastern end of Long Island, etc.) I imagine California, Texas, and Florida have similar experiences.
NY is smaller than my state with 1/3rd more population. If RON or more than a day drive is required the Wing is not offering them enough
or in the right places.
Having to pay more than ~$20 for these is not right.
Quote from: FLCAP 268 on June 01, 2010, 11:46:16 AM
I just applied for the on-line course.
For me I live in St John's County Florida and most of the CLC I have seen hosted are over in the panhandle or way down south. I am currently a SLS/UCC Director and was told the reason they will not let me run a CLC with it is because they are not going to send instructors for CLC when only one person needs it referring to me.
I am sure I am not the only person in the area that needs CLC heck I can count two others in my Squadron who need CLC but I'm not going to fight with Wing Prof. Development to get the course.
Exactly. It seems we have a problem here in Florida. I think the Wing grossly underestimates the need for training/PD and needs to think strategically about how to better serve the members. I'm in Tampa (Hillsborough County, FL) and it has been quite some time since many (any) courses have been offered here- yet I think we have one of the largest (if not the largest, according to number of members/units) Groups in the Wing. Some of us have been pushing the issue lately of getting courses held locally, but it seems very difficult to actually make any progress. SLS, CLC, UCC, BCUT/ACUT, and pretty much anything like that is a rarity here.
On a positive note- I'm glad to see you likewise applied for the online CLC course. Hopefully there will soon be enough of us so that we can get things rolling.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 01, 2010, 01:56:01 PMNY is smaller than my state with 1/3rd more population. If RON or more than a day drive is required the Wing is not offering them enough or in the right places.
Didn't I say in the paragraph above the one you quoted that I don't think we run enough of these courses? :-\
In any event, population density is an issue when you're talking about Upstate NY. I don't think it's worth running the course if < 10 people are participating. "Experience density" is also a problem; qualified directors and instructors tend to live closer to the population centers, leaving the people in the outlying areas little choice but to drive.
Even with all of the geography factors, we still just plain don't run enough of these courses. Part of the problem is that people at the Group and Squadron level aren't stepping up to be directors (I've run two courses in the last three years, but I can't/shouldn't direct every course), and part of the problem is that the Wing is not actively recruiting directors.
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 01, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
Actually, they are offering SLS online as well.
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 01, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
I think you can take them out of order, it just won't help you any promotion wise right away, but you'll have it done when you are ready to move up to that level. Ideally you would take SLS first.
Unless there's been a recent change, SLS is only available on-line for chaplains. Everyone else must complete classroom training.
I'm aware of a member getting permission from the Wing PDO to take CLC before SLS, due to a scheduling conflict. However, I don't know of any rule that says you can or can't take them out of order.
I would think that on-line SLS and CLS would be a last resort, to be used only if classroom training isn't available. As others have mentioned, the real value of these programs is the interaction between participants. Sure, you could read the slides and instructor notes, but you won't get as much out of it.
I have no idea why it can be like pulling teeth to get these courses scheduled. It's really not very difficult. We recently conducted an in-house SLS and just received approval to run a TLC. If there's enough interest, I'm thinking about doing CLC as well.
Yes, these are supposed to be Group or Wing level programs. Sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands.
You must complete SLS before CLC. This came up following the SLS & CLC on 22-23 May at Travis AFB. This is in CAPR 50-17, but in the past wasn't strictly enforced.
My personal guess is that about two years ago the eServices programmers finally formally entered this requirement in coding. Today, the Professional Development Registrar cannot input a student for SLS unless he/she has completed Level One and is enrolled in a Level II specialty track. Likewise, she cannot input a student for CLC unless he/she has completed SLS. And I get a "tsk-tsk" message from PDR!
Quote from: EMT-83 on June 02, 2010, 03:26:07 AM
Unless there's been a recent change, SLS is only available on-line for chaplains. Everyone else must complete classroom training.
For better or worse they appear to be accepting applications from the general population, now. I have at least one member in my group who is signed up. It remains to be seen whether his non Chaplain-ness will be vetted before he starts.
I signed up for the online CLC course. Let's see how it goes.
It took me 3+ years to have the chance to do SLS. I had to drive 4 hours to get there, pay for gas, a hotel, 4 meals, and the course itself. Several segments were spent listening to pilots tell of their flying adventures, so I paid a lot of money to get very little new information.
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 01, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
I think MAWG might have done either SLS or CLC recently... I forget which. They are usually done at the Hanscom FSC.
I just noticed this in the PD News section...
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CLC & SLS On-line
(27 May 10)
On-line CLC & SLS are now available! On-line CLC & SLS are open to all eligible candidates who would not otherwise be able to attend in residence. To register for either course click this link which takes you to the On-line Courses & Exams page in CAP University. Please note that the primary method of completing CLC & SLS is in residence and the on-line option is primarily for those who cannot attend in residence.
PD Staff
I'm noticing how they are stressing "eligible candidates who would not be able to attend in residence." I'm curious as to what qualifies a person to take these online courses- what defines "eligible" and what defines not being able to attend in residence. It seems there is more to it than just whoever wants to take it online.
Update:
This morning, I received information regarding this online CLC course and getting started. Seems like it is being hosted by Wyoming Wing. I'll report back with details about this experience as they happen.
I was wondering if anyone here on CAPTalk is in my class?
I signed up for the class, but haven't gotten any word yet. I have been looking to get into CLC for about a year and a half. Trying to find a weekend it is offered and I am not working has been difficult.
How does the online CLC address the WING SPECIFIC Learning objectives as outlined in CAPR 50-17 5-3 a.. I'm all for an online CLC but are there really 52 different versions depending on which wing you're in?
The short answer is "yes", and it clearly can't - which may be enough justification to deny permission to members in all but the most
extreme cases of "I can't get there...".
My wing, for example, adds sessions on Logistics and the IG, and as someone who directs and instructs them annually I can tell you we
are being as locally specific in all the classes as possible.
The risk here is that these become like RSC and NSC where the questions start "but in my wing..." and the instructors can't reasonably address it.
My single biggest concern here is that it appears the system is accepting applications without any approval or even notification of the commander, which runs contrary to the idea that commanders need to approve participation in everything. My wing runs 3-4 a year,
geographically spread reasonably for the membership - afterwards the members return to their units better informed and energized.
I really don't want my people taking some genericized curriculum that has little connection to day-to-day real CAP life, and spreading it out over 8 weeks isn't going to energize anybody, let alone foster any new connections that are meaningful locally.
Quote from: MIKE on June 02, 2010, 03:00:24 PM
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 01, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
I think MAWG might have done either SLS or CLC recently... I forget which. They are usually done at the Hanscom FSC.
Yep. It was SLS, and it conflicted with the wing comm exercise, which I needed for my Comm tech rating and which I had been told happens very rarely.
Ah well, I'll do it the next time it comes around.
Anyone else scheduled to start CLC on Wednesday, 23 June?
I received the initial email, but haven't heard anything further.
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 01, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
You can take CLC prior to SLS, BUT you won't get credit for it until you complete the SLS (and then you have to either resubmit the CAPF11 for the CLC as proof or send a copy of the CLC Diploma).
Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2010, 01:51:39 AM
Quote from: DBlair on May 30, 2010, 01:17:15 AM
It shouldn't cost the member anything, certainly not overnight travel money. That's a wing problem that needs to be fixed in the wing.
Ours are generally 1 - N, 1 Mid, 1 S. 1-2 hours travel tops, and I try not to charge anything for the seminar, though someone always sneaks in copies on me.
1 a year per state is unacceptable.
Actually the Wing should be telling each group that they are required to put on one of each course a year (SLS, CLC, TLC) in coordination with WIng and adjacent groups. I've actually had people drive to Marietta GA, from Jacksonville FL. for a SLS, because it was closer than the training available in FLWG.
Quote from: FLCAP 268 on June 01, 2010, 11:46:16 AM
I just applied for the on-line course.
For me I live in St John's County Florida and most of the CLC I have seen hosted are over in the panhandle or way down south. I am currently a SLS/UCC Director and was told the reason they will not let me run a CLC with it is because they are not going to send instructors for CLC when only one person needs it referring to me.
I am sure I am not the only person in the area that needs CLC heck I can count two others in my Squadron who need CLC but I'm not going to fight with Wing Prof. Development to get the course.
You're not the only one in Group 2 that needs it, but the Group HQ has gone several years without it and seem to be very happy with the situation.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 30, 2010, 12:33:50 AM
CAP is slowly turning into a correspondence course, with less and less need to ever show up to a unit meeting. This is not a good thing.
In my case the online courses are quite valuable. My "weekend" is Tuesday / Wednesday. Virtually all resident classes are taught on Weekends and I can't make it to them.
I can't take weekends off, but call a search on Monday afternoon and I can stay out four days straight.
Quote from: dwb on June 01, 2010, 12:45:07 PM
INew York is a very big state, and long drives are the norm, especially for the edges of the state (Jamestown, Plattsburgh, Eastern end of Long Island, etc.) I imagine California, Texas, and Florida have similar experiences.
Given that you could drop the "very big" state of NY
into these states, yes, they do.
Its on line - but unlike the IS100 & IS700 courses there is still interaction with a living instructor. These classes have specific start times and a "Virtual Classroom" environment. I have yet to do one myself but I would not be surprised for there to be set times to log in and watch a live web broadcast of the instructor doing what he otherwise would have been doing in person, with all of the students logged into a chat room.
Or it may not be that high tech.
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 16, 2010, 03:33:45 PM
Quote from: MIKE on June 02, 2010, 03:00:24 PM
Quote from: Star-Maker on June 01, 2010, 07:08:58 PM
I assume that I have to have taken SLS before I can take CLC, right?
Too bad, I'll have to wait awhile on this online option. :D
I think MAWG might have done either SLS or CLC recently... I forget which. They are usually done at the Hanscom FSC.
Yep. It was SLS, and it conflicted with the wing comm exercise, which I needed for my Comm tech rating and which I had been told happens very rarely.
Ah well, I'll do it the next time it comes around.
If MAWG doesn't have one that is convenient for you check out the NH, RI, and CT Wings for their courses. Nothing to prevent you from taking the course there, and it gives you another Wing's perspectives on local issues. Since you're located at Hanscom, it's only an hour drive to RI and/or NH Wing HQ's