CAP COVs are purchased & owned by NHQ as much as our planes are right? NHQ pays to maintain our airframes, why not the vehicles? Its hurting some squadrons, my squadron is losing our van because we can't afford to maintain it.
What are you being asked to pay for?
Major repairs (i.e. anything down to tires) are covered by the USAF when the process is followed properly (proper estimates,
wing approval, etc.).
In most cases wings ask units hosting a vehicle to cover consumables like oil changes, but for the last couple of years
the maintenance budgets have been covering that as well.
Seriously, how much does basic preventative maintenance cost? When our squadron had a van, it was the (required) monthly car wash and (required) yearly wax job, an oil change once every several months... maybe a wiper blades change once a year. Top off the washer fluid from time to time. And pay for the state inspection sticker. Maybe $120/yr? For what amounts to otherwise free access to a capable vehicle whenever we needed it? Not a completely terrible trade-off. You'd be hardpressed to provide yourselves with access to a flexible vehicle for $10/month any other way.
Don't forget the hidden cost of replacing door logos and adding triangles to the roof, then giving up on that. >:(
Quote from: JC004 on May 19, 2010, 09:56:48 PM
Don't forget the hidden cost of replacing door logos and adding triangles to the roof, then giving up on that. >:(
Not something local units were supposed to pay for.
That's why I said hidden. We're still paying for it. Didn't they pay for the triangles, though?
National does pay for vehicle maintenance.....including routine maintenance.
Your wing should have a process for you to do this.
In NVWG we have to get a quote and send it to HQ...the approve and we get it fixed.
Yeah I know that major repairs are covered expenses and I don't see paying for oil changes, standard consumable maintenance being that costly? An oil change for a large van is about $40-$60 (my truck is a 7.3L Diesel PSD I pay anywhere from $85-$120 for an oil change so thankfully its not a diesel van).
The problem is our wing requires members to come up with the upfront costs before they will even consider reimbursing not to mention we have to get approvals on quotes for various major repairs whether it is brakes, tires, windshield, graphic wrap application (which it seems squadrons have to pay to have that put on ALTHOUGH NHQ does pay to have them made so I suppose that's a given).
Our orides got canceled because I happen to be the major factor in cadets getting orides :S I will be out of the state and so my squadron depends on me to pay for 4 hours of orides in which I get reimbursed but this isn't how a wing should operate FWIW.
I am not sure what costs the squadron has to come up with other than usual maintenance, and I not aware monthly car wash was required but then we don't use our van that much we might only use it 2-3 times a year for non ES stuff because a particular senior member has a vendetta against OPEC and doesn't want to spend more on fuel than he has to :S.
I will be doing my best to convince our commander to do two things: A) keep the van and I will front the cost of maintenance PROVIDED I get reimbursed and B) trade it for a smaller van and when we need a bigger van we can borrow one from another squadron.
If there are other costs I am not aware of other than having to spend too much on fuel when the van doesn't even get 10mpg its kinda pointless.
Quote from: mynetdude on May 19, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
Yeah I know that major repairs are covered expenses and I don't see paying for oil changes, standard consumable maintenance being that costly? An oil change for a large van is about $40-$60 (my truck is a 7.3L Diesel PSD I pay anywhere from $85-$120 for an oil change so thankfully its not a diesel van).
The problem is our wing requires members to come up with the upfront costs before they will even consider reimbursing not to mention we have to get approvals on quotes for various major repairs whether it is brakes, tires, windshield, graphic wrap application (which it seems squadrons have to pay to have that put on ALTHOUGH NHQ does pay to have them made so I suppose that's a given).
Our orides got canceled because I happen to be the major factor in cadets getting orides :S I will be out of the state and so my squadron depends on me to pay for 4 hours of orides in which I get reimbursed but this isn't how a wing should operate FWIW.
I am not sure what costs the squadron has to come up with other than usual maintenance, and I not aware monthly car wash was required but then we don't use our van that much we might only use it 2-3 times a year for non ES stuff because a particular senior member has a vendetta against OPEC and doesn't want to spend more on fuel than he has to :S.
I will be doing my best to convince our commander to do two things: A) keep the van and I will front the cost of maintenance PROVIDED I get reimbursed and B) trade it for a smaller van and when we need a bigger van we can borrow one from another squadron.
If there are other costs I am not aware of other than having to spend too much on fuel when the van doesn't even get 10mpg its kinda pointless.
Why are you paying $60 for an oil change? That's obscene. Are members allowed to do minor PM on the vans? I could do it for less than $20.
Off Topic.
You should not have to be paying for your own O-rides.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 19, 2010, 11:38:18 PM
Off Topic.
You should not have to be paying for your own O-rides.
I think he's talking about his wing not having gas cards in the aircraft, so he pays for fuel out of pocket and gets reimbursed....eventually.
Quote from: davidsinn on May 19, 2010, 11:31:07 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on May 19, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
Yeah I know that major repairs are covered expenses and I don't see paying for oil changes, standard consumable maintenance being that costly? An oil change for a large van is about $40-$60 (my truck is a 7.3L Diesel PSD I pay anywhere from $85-$120 for an oil change so thankfully its not a diesel van).
The problem is our wing requires members to come up with the upfront costs before they will even consider reimbursing not to mention we have to get approvals on quotes for various major repairs whether it is brakes, tires, windshield, graphic wrap application (which it seems squadrons have to pay to have that put on ALTHOUGH NHQ does pay to have them made so I suppose that's a given).
Our orides got canceled because I happen to be the major factor in cadets getting orides :S I will be out of the state and so my squadron depends on me to pay for 4 hours of orides in which I get reimbursed but this isn't how a wing should operate FWIW.
I am not sure what costs the squadron has to come up with other than usual maintenance, and I not aware monthly car wash was required but then we don't use our van that much we might only use it 2-3 times a year for non ES stuff because a particular senior member has a vendetta against OPEC and doesn't want to spend more on fuel than he has to :S.
I will be doing my best to convince our commander to do two things: A) keep the van and I will front the cost of maintenance PROVIDED I get reimbursed and B) trade it for a smaller van and when we need a bigger van we can borrow one from another squadron.
If there are other costs I am not aware of other than having to spend too much on fuel when the van doesn't even get 10mpg its kinda pointless.
Why are you paying $60 for an oil change? That's obscene. Are members allowed to do minor PM on the vans? I could do it for less than $20.
I don't know how many qts of oil the big vans use, however I have to assume they use 6 to 10 qts my diesel truck uses 13 to 15 qts. I would have to say $30-$50 tops for a large van or $25-$40 for a small van.
I would not want to do PM on a COV for liability and work related injuries not to mention Hazmat issues with oil and if we were to do them, we would have to follow OHSA oil materials handling and disposal I think the pros would be better off doing this for us.
Quote from: SJFedor on May 19, 2010, 11:40:22 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 19, 2010, 11:38:18 PM
Off Topic.
You should not have to be paying for your own O-rides.
I think he's talking about his wing not having gas cards in the aircraft, so he pays for fuel out of pocket and gets reimbursed....eventually.
Correct, I would not do it unless I were absolutely sure I would be reimbursed.. its $300 I would be getting back.
Quote from: mynetdude on May 20, 2010, 02:06:20 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 19, 2010, 11:31:07 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on May 19, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
Yeah I know that major repairs are covered expenses and I don't see paying for oil changes, standard consumable maintenance being that costly? An oil change for a large van is about $40-$60 (my truck is a 7.3L Diesel PSD I pay anywhere from $85-$120 for an oil change so thankfully its not a diesel van).
The problem is our wing requires members to come up with the upfront costs before they will even consider reimbursing not to mention we have to get approvals on quotes for various major repairs whether it is brakes, tires, windshield, graphic wrap application (which it seems squadrons have to pay to have that put on ALTHOUGH NHQ does pay to have them made so I suppose that's a given).
Our orides got canceled because I happen to be the major factor in cadets getting orides :S I will be out of the state and so my squadron depends on me to pay for 4 hours of orides in which I get reimbursed but this isn't how a wing should operate FWIW.
I am not sure what costs the squadron has to come up with other than usual maintenance, and I not aware monthly car wash was required but then we don't use our van that much we might only use it 2-3 times a year for non ES stuff because a particular senior member has a vendetta against OPEC and doesn't want to spend more on fuel than he has to :S.
I will be doing my best to convince our commander to do two things: A) keep the van and I will front the cost of maintenance PROVIDED I get reimbursed and B) trade it for a smaller van and when we need a bigger van we can borrow one from another squadron.
If there are other costs I am not aware of other than having to spend too much on fuel when the van doesn't even get 10mpg its kinda pointless.
Why are you paying $60 for an oil change? That's obscene. Are members allowed to do minor PM on the vans? I could do it for less than $20.
I don't know how many qts of oil the big vans use, however I have to assume they use 6 to 10 qts my diesel truck uses 13 to 15 qts. I would have to say $30-$50 tops for a large van or $25-$40 for a small van.
I would not want to do PM on a COV for liability and work related injuries not to mention Hazmat issues with oil and if we were to do them, we would have to follow OHSA oil materials handling and disposal I think the pros would be better off doing this for us.
Where do you live, California? Engine oil is not hazmat. All you have to do is take it to any parts store and pay a couple of bucks and they'll recycle it for you. My family does all of our own oil changes and recycle it by the barrel from our own farm shop. I'd trust my self long before I'd trust some of those so-called pros.
Quote from: davidsinn on May 20, 2010, 02:19:22 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on May 20, 2010, 02:06:20 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on May 19, 2010, 11:31:07 PM
Quote from: mynetdude on May 19, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
Yeah I know that major repairs are covered expenses and I don't see paying for oil changes, standard consumable maintenance being that costly? An oil change for a large van is about $40-$60 (my truck is a 7.3L Diesel PSD I pay anywhere from $85-$120 for an oil change so thankfully its not a diesel van).
The problem is our wing requires members to come up with the upfront costs before they will even consider reimbursing not to mention we have to get approvals on quotes for various major repairs whether it is brakes, tires, windshield, graphic wrap application (which it seems squadrons have to pay to have that put on ALTHOUGH NHQ does pay to have them made so I suppose that's a given).
Our orides got canceled because I happen to be the major factor in cadets getting orides :S I will be out of the state and so my squadron depends on me to pay for 4 hours of orides in which I get reimbursed but this isn't how a wing should operate FWIW.
I am not sure what costs the squadron has to come up with other than usual maintenance, and I not aware monthly car wash was required but then we don't use our van that much we might only use it 2-3 times a year for non ES stuff because a particular senior member has a vendetta against OPEC and doesn't want to spend more on fuel than he has to :S.
I will be doing my best to convince our commander to do two things: A) keep the van and I will front the cost of maintenance PROVIDED I get reimbursed and B) trade it for a smaller van and when we need a bigger van we can borrow one from another squadron.
If there are other costs I am not aware of other than having to spend too much on fuel when the van doesn't even get 10mpg its kinda pointless.
Why are you paying $60 for an oil change? That's obscene. Are members allowed to do minor PM on the vans? I could do it for less than $20.
I don't know how many qts of oil the big vans use, however I have to assume they use 6 to 10 qts my diesel truck uses 13 to 15 qts. I would have to say $30-$50 tops for a large van or $25-$40 for a small van.
I would not want to do PM on a COV for liability and work related injuries not to mention Hazmat issues with oil and if we were to do them, we would have to follow OHSA oil materials handling and disposal I think the pros would be better off doing this for us.
Where do you live, California? Engine oil is not hazmat. All you have to do is take it to any parts store and pay a couple of bucks and they'll recycle it for you. My family does all of our own oil changes and recycle it by the barrel from our own farm shop. I'd trust my self long before I'd trust some of those so-called pros.
Its free to recycle oil here, the oil just has to be stored in a spill proof container and be dispensed inside a receptacle that the container can be stored in. I don't know about you, but I would rather have the shop do it they carry more liability insurance; I don't know if I could trust myself better than the pros or so called pros to do it however if they screw up its their job to fix it FWIW (I suppose that is debatable).
Contrary to popular believe, used motor oil is hazardous waste - even outside of California. The reason auto parts store recycle it is 1. they usually get a small amount of money, 2. it's good PR, and 3. it brings potential customers in.
As a CAP van crew chief, I handle the maintenance. Typical service runs ~$20. Even though I can do alot of maintenance tasks (and I do on my personal truck), I won't do much on the CAP van due to potential liability. A perk of my employment is access to the fleet maintenace shop and all its toys tools. Service shops, dealerships, lube joints, all carry insurance in case they screw something up. Having them do the work and inspections (I get a free safety inspection every service) provides a verifiable maintenance track and a third party inspection.
Any major repairs require a quote before having the work done, regardless of what wing you are in. I just put one in for a windshield. Since National is picking up at least part of the tab for major work, it is prudent to find out how much they're going to be on the hook for. If you are going to have a service shop or dealership fix your vehicle, don't you ask how much it will cost?
Quote from: mynetdude on May 19, 2010, 11:20:16 PM
The problem is our wing requires members to come up with the upfront costs before they will even consider reimbursing not to mention we have to get approvals on quotes for various major repairs whether it is brakes, tires, windshield, graphic wrap application (which it seems squadrons have to pay to have that put on ALTHOUGH NHQ does pay to have them made so I suppose that's a given).
I gotta be honest, it sounds like you are complaining publicly about a situation you're not even fully clear about.
Yes, you have to get approvals on major repairs. If you establish a relationship with a local dealer, many will make the repairs and wait for
the check from NHQ. Pre-paying is expedient but not always required. Likewise the wing can in many cases front the money from their operational budget. If they say "no", tell them to come and get their van. If a vehicle needs a major repair, it is likely out of service until someone
gets it fixed, and I can tell you CAP-USAF does not like seeing vehicles sitting idle.
A unit paying for graphics? Not unless it was something they decided the wanted to do on their own.
The only thing a unit is generally responsible for is fuel, oil changes, washes, and wipers, and as I mentioned the first time, other than fuel its being covered by NHQ's maintenance budget (at least it is by me).
No unit should be paying out of pocket for transport fuel - either divy it up between participants directly or include the cost in dues or activities fees.
As to mileage, if you're going to whine about that, you might just as well give the vehicle back and tell your member's and their parents to "meet you there".
Seriously, what's the actual issue here? Has anyone fronted money they didn't get back? Or is this another "its more trouble than its worth" situation.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2010, 03:02:22 AM
Seriously, what's the actual issue here? Has anyone fronted money they didn't get back?
Yes.
Quote from: arajca on May 20, 2010, 03:04:42 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2010, 03:02:22 AM
Seriously, what's the actual issue here? Has anyone fronted money they didn't get back?
Yes.
Well, I wasn't asking you, but I challenge that assertion.
Assuming that the process for maintenance was followed correctly, that is a serious charge and probably an area for an FW&A complaint or similar, if not a civil suit against CAP.
I'm only whining that we are losing the van, we NEED it for ES IMHO... every squadron should have at least ONE vehicle.
I will find out tomorrow what the costs are, fuel/oil can't be that expensive really.
I get my truck's oil change at the Ford dealership because its cheaper, I would not have Les Schwab do brakes I have had issues with Les Schwab that I would not want to jeopardize the safety of the CAP vehicle.
I am also whining about the fact that I don't mind helping out but the wing isn't taking the responsibility in providing financial support up front. People seem to have the assertion every CAP member have money. That being said, I have not had ANY issues with reimbursement (yet) I have witnessed several people who got their reimbursements in UNtimely manners including up to almost a year later.
If NHQ won't pay the full 100% cost of their vehicles then why bother keeping it? I don't have a problem paying for fuel for it if all the participants are chipping in as I would do the same just some people seem to have a different belief and resort to using POVs because their POVs get 22mpg better than the COV van and they can save more money... whoopedoo! Does your POV insurance cover the cost of multiple parents suing you? I'd rather take the COV and be protected at a higher level unless I am found to be negligent in which I will do my utmost best to drive with care.
I truly think that many people make the van repair process significantly more difficult than it's supposed to be. As pointed out, major repairs are paid for by the repair budget. If your unit has a van that is in so bad of shape that it needs constant repair, someone hasn't been doing the job correctly in the first place.
The unit isn't responsible for the cost of the major repairs and most wings include routine maintenance into their budgets (fluid changes, etc).
If routine or major maintenance isn't being performed, in most cases, it is just because the unit that has possession of the vehicle is either a) unfamiliar with the transportation regs or b) too lazy to take the time to get it done. Either way, it's inexcusable.
All of the vehicles repairs I've ever had to have done on our vans has been covered. I've never had to even front the money for the repairs because of prearrangement with the shops to just receive the checks from NHQ or Wing HQ. On top of that, there has only been one occasion that I've had an actual problem with a van. It had been -30 the night before and some condensation on the alternator pulley caused it to freeze. When the engine started it burned the belt off. Even that was just an $8 repair and was covered.
So, have a conversation with your local leadership about van maintenance if its an issue and see what the wing reimburses. There is no reason that the local units should be paying for anything except gas. In the past there were wings who exploited units with large checking accounts. They'd transfer vans to the unit that had maintenance issues. The unit would repair the van and then it would be taken away, replaced for another clunker. But, I'm pretty sure those days have passed. YMMV.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2010, 03:07:01 AM
Quote from: arajca on May 20, 2010, 03:04:42 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2010, 03:02:22 AM
Seriously, what's the actual issue here? Has anyone fronted money they didn't get back?
Yes.
Well, I wasn't asking you, but I challenge that assertion.
If you weren't asking EVERYONE on the board, then you need to specify who you are asking.
QuoteAssuming that the process for maintenance was followed correctly, that is a serious charge and probably an area for an FW&A complaint or similar, if not a civil suit against CAP.
Head, Wall. Wall, Head. Play nice. For the amount involved, it's not worth a civil suit.
Quote from: arajca on May 20, 2010, 04:21:44 AM
QuoteAssuming that the process for maintenance was followed correctly, that is a serious charge and probably an area for an FW&A complaint or similar, if not a civil suit against CAP.
Head, Wall. Wall, Head. Play nice. For the amount involved, it's not worth a civil suit.
The its also not worth mentioning in the context that CAP is making units cover vehicle maintenance, which it isn't.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 20, 2010, 06:04:31 AM
Quote from: arajca on May 20, 2010, 04:21:44 AM
QuoteAssuming that the process for maintenance was followed correctly, that is a serious charge and probably an area for an FW&A complaint or similar, if not a civil suit against CAP.
Head, Wall. Wall, Head. Play nice. For the amount involved, it's not worth a civil suit.
The its also not worth mentioning in the context that CAP is making units cover vehicle maintenance, which it isn't.
I don't know if it is or not, I have seen it go both ways. I talked to my commander, and he expressed to me that a particular member has been paying for all preventative maintenance plus change for other routine maintenance which I will find out more about this week.
So far this particular member has paid for just about everything the van has needed except for tires or brakes. It needs tires, don't know if it needs brakes so will have to get it inspected if we continue to keep the van.
Another squadron I was in had their van's windshield replaced at no cost but that squadron pays for oil changes and wipers.
Again cost of oil changes and wipers can't be more than $100 a year (oil change 2x a year @ $40 + $20 wipers) and this assumes we put 6,000 miles per year, I am not sure what the milage requirement is in order to satisfy NHQ and it is not like we use it every day so I would expect to use considerably less miles than a POV would.
Quote from: mynetdude on May 21, 2010, 04:49:34 AM
I talked to my commander, and he expressed to me that a particular member has been paying for all preventative maintenance plus change for other routine maintenance which I will find out more about this week.
So far this particular member has paid for just about everything the van has needed except for tires or brakes. It needs tires, don't know if it needs brakes so will have to get it inspected if we continue to keep the van.
Another squadron I was in had their van's windshield replaced at no cost but that squadron pays for oil changes and wipers.
CAPR77-1 states in part that wing will be responsible for maintenance. Does that mean wing pays for oil changes? I don't know. But if those tires need replacing that's not something to fool with. Get that done now!
Quote from: Camas on May 21, 2010, 05:28:45 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on May 21, 2010, 04:49:34 AM
I talked to my commander, and he expressed to me that a particular member has been paying for all preventative maintenance plus change for other routine maintenance which I will find out more about this week.
So far this particular member has paid for just about everything the van has needed except for tires or brakes. It needs tires, don't know if it needs brakes so will have to get it inspected if we continue to keep the van.
Another squadron I was in had their van's windshield replaced at no cost but that squadron pays for oil changes and wipers.
CAPR77-1 states in part that wing will be responsible for maintenance. Does that mean wing pays for oil changes? I don't know. But if those tires need replacing that's not something to fool with. Get that done now!
Looks like I will be digging into the transpo regs before heading up to wing staff meeting. I agree tires need to be replaced, the summer is coming the heat will kill these tires so it will be my job to make sure that the tires will be replaced with a DOT approved tire for that vehicle.