OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?
Here's my suggestions
1. Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.
2. Aviator Shirt Uniform -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
4. Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.
5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests. Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left) --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
That's all I can think of for now. :angel:
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 10, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?
Here's my suggestions
1. Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.
2. Aviator Shirt Uniform -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
4. Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.
5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests. Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left) --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
That's all I can think of for now. :angel:
RM
1. Eh, kinda neutral on that one. Maybe just the SMs.
2. I personally prefer the grey pants, and have no trouble getting a fairly close color match to the grade sleeves. Sears and Penneys both carry pants in that color range.
3. Good idea. But leave event issued shirts optional. You know that the BDU blouse can be removed as necessary even with today's black or brown undershirts?
4. Nope. Too many uniforms for the cadets and their parents; wallets. Also lessens the distinction between SMs and cadets where it might make more of a difference.
5. Works for me.
6. Nope. The current standards are fine. We need better enforcement, not new rules.
YMMV.
1. Good with that, except for currently we can get BDU's for free from the AF.
2. As many know, I hate the grey pants. Black would be good, but I'd prefer a dark blue; i.e., airline type. If grey must be kept, allow grey BDU trousers from Propper. I know some who already wear those with the aviator shirt.
3. Good with that, but some squadrons have their own T-shirts.
4. Abstention. I never wear the golf shirt, so I'm not concerned with anything to do with that.
5. OK, but also allow leather flight suit/utility uniform nameplate.
6. It's hard enough to get uniformity now; to "tighten-up" would be even more difficult.
I would add, probably uselessly, to push for retention of the CSU with the modifications specified by General Courter (grey epaulettes, deletion of metal rank, standard CAP grey nameplate). I wear that now (except that I never got a service coat) and get many compliments on it.
1. Agree with transitioning to BBDU for SM not cadets...but not the reasoning behind it.
2. Why not just keep the gray pants....and standards the color.
3. Agree the CAP ought to sell a "standard" CAP T-shirt....but no need to wear them blue jeans. Rules already allow us to remove our shirts if it is hot outside.
4. Agree...(with the current grey pants).
5. Does not need to go to uniform board....if you want to do that....do it. Orange vests are ES gear not uniforms.
6. Drop AF style uniforms from Senior Members altogether.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 10, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?
Here's my suggestions
1. Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.
2. Aviator Shirt Uniform -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
4. Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.
5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests. Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left) --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
That's all I can think of for now. :angel:
RM
1. I suggest lose the BBDU. They look fine when new but when laundered they soon look faded and tattered. BDU for everyone should be looked at again once the AF is finally done with them.
2. Navy blue would be my preference. The gray slack shades vary too much.
3. Should be fine.
4. Polo shirt uniform for Cadets? Why not.
5. Command Patch fine. No dog patch please.
6. I would leave the appearance standards as is. I would focus on how well the uniform is worn and work to assure PDO mentorship.
here we go again, catch us if you can.....................
Quote from: cap235629 on May 10, 2010, 01:20:23 AM
here we go again, catch us if you can.....................
Did you expect it to stay dormant for long?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 10, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
Only ones I agree with are 3 (If it's a navy blue shirt for the Field Uniform?) and 6.
I would replace the white t-shirt worn with the Field Uniform with a matching navy blue t-shirt (Looks slick with the ODU.). I don't like the black t-shirt with the Field Uniform either, but some do... Can be uniform with the BDU though.
Add a rigger belt option to both the Field Uniform and BDU in lieu of the blue web belt with black open face buckle and tip. (Been wearing a black one with ODUs.)
Fix insignia placement on the BDU cap and blue BDU cap IAW AFI 36-2903 including chaplains option, but discontinue metal insignia on blue BDU cap.
Authorize transitional boots with the BDU. Sage or tan. Sand/tan moisture wicking t-shirts in lieu of Army Brown t-shirt?
Start the process of killing off patches from both the BDU and Field Uniform.
Cloth grade insignia and ASNP for flight suit/jacket. Above boot options for AF-style flight suit?
Fix insignia placement on AF-style service uniforms (Male versus female IAW AFI 36-2903). Fix sleeve crease on shirt/blouse to natural crease line.
Allow military awards earned to be worn on AF-style uniform as prescribed regardless of members military status or lack thereof. i.e. civilian, auxiliary.
Shoulder cords - either go back to the old manner of wear or change to a more appropriate pin-on cord.
Find a way to get rid of cadet officer shoulder boards. I would transition to AFJROTC cadet officer grade. Fix cadet grade insignia placement IAW AFI 36-2903. i.e. lightweight blue jacket. (See also NCOs.)
Either fix uniform insignia placement for senior members without grade or mandate golf shirt gray slacks only.
How about a moratorium on uniform threads here until there is action of any kind by NHQ?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2010, 01:52:31 AM
How about a moratorium on uniform threads here until there is action of any kind by NHQ?
Second
Quote from: vento on May 10, 2010, 02:22:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2010, 01:52:31 AM
How about a moratorium on uniform threads here until there is action of any kind by NHQ?
Second
How about there be just ignoring uniform threads unless you want to particpate?
Geeze....we get it. You don't want to talk about uniforms....so don't and let us who want to talk about uniforms get on with it.
#1. Can anyone cite a actual instance where a cap ground team (or any cap personnel for that matter) was confused with a L.E. SWAT team? The Air Force is done with BDU's. At the local base, their are literally hundreds of sets waiting to be shipped to local cap units.... I seem to recall a lot of bi&^$$#@! going on about the cost to members of our uniform changes so, why are we going to change a uniform that we can get for free. An added benefit the Air Force can no longer claim we look too close to them in BDU's since, well, they wont wear them anymore at all coming up very soon.
#2. Um, why? Just specify the gray color....no need to change it to black AND specify a color...
#3. um...sure, another thing to buy...
#4 No, make your cadets where the uniforms they already have, simple....
#5 yay more money to spend, by the way are you going to buy me those and get them placed for me?
#6 Enforce the rules that are in place..... rules upon rules mean nothing if no one enforces them...
Again?!?!
OK....as I always throw this in, I will throw it in again. Get RID of the Cadet Officer Boards. What a waste of money, and is an awful throwback to an era long GONE.
Hated them as a Cadet, my Cadets hate them and they sometimes are incompatible with the actual metal insignia that are supposed to be attached.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 10, 2010, 02:33:34 AM
Quote from: vento on May 10, 2010, 02:22:25 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2010, 01:52:31 AM
How about a moratorium on uniform threads here until there is action of any kind by NHQ?
Second
How about there be just ignoring uniform threads unless you want to particpate?
Geeze....we get it. You don't want to talk about uniforms....so don't and let us who want to talk about uniforms get on with it.
No - I love to talk uniforms and equipment - there is simply nothing left in this regard that is "new under the sun".
This subject has been pulverized so small that the guys at CERN may start checking these threads for the Higgs Bosun.
(http://bellerophonchimera.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/higgs-boson-simulation-1.jpg)
Higgs What ??? Is CERN like CERT??? ;)
Get rid of that stupid Pluto patch. The oval airplane SAR patch was
okay.
1. What about places that the local swat wears bluebdu's? wouldn't that make us more like them? The current uniform is fine, especially now that BDU's are being phased out of service for all branches.
2. Changing the pants color is only going to cause us to have problems with people not purchasing matching black pants. All that needs to be done on this level is to clarify the regulation and give more guidance. Or has anyone considered that the regulation was written to be broad on purpose?
3. No problem with this. However there's nothing bad with getting this done on the squadron level, squadron t-shirts are always a fun Idea.
4. Cadets should be wearing blues to any kind of military location. Otherwise proper civilian attire is more than appropriate. You want a unit shirt for these kinds of things? Make one. The idea of not having corporate uniform items for cadets is a cost factor. We can provide free bdu's and free blues to each one of our cadets. We would not be able to do the same with corporate items.
5. I thought the Orange Vests that said "Civil Air Patrol" on them were obvious enough. Again, you wanna put a patch on it, I don't think there is anything to stop you.
6. This one contradicts your first statement. However there is nothing wrong with our current standards, our current standards need to be enforced.
Side note, how many threads do you need to make stating the same thing over and over and over again?
LOL, the poor Cadet Officer Boards.
You can't get rid of them.. a great source of entertainment, listening to them complain about them, hearing the stories and methods of attachment, etc .. would be GONE forever
Quote from: MIKE on May 10, 2010, 01:46:57 AM
...
Shoulder cords - either go back to the old manner of wear or change to a more appropriate pin-on cord.
...
I don't know. It is sort of entertaining to see small cadets with the cord mostly down to the waist.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 10, 2010, 01:10:38 AM
Drop AF style uniforms from Senior Members altogether.
Two questions, sir.
1. Why?
2. Replace them with...?
I really doubt that will happen unless the USAF decides to cut CAP loose altogether, in which case CAP as we have known it will no longer be CAP.
How about whatever uniform changes there are going to be no matter how big or small, National pays to outfit everyone in the program with them! Just like all the other Military Branches.
Quote from: Capt_Redfox30 on May 10, 2010, 04:24:02 PM
How about whatever uniform changes there are going to be no matter how big or small, National pays to outfit everyone in the program with them! Just like all the other Military Branches.
The military does not pay for uniform changes.
Enlisted personnel get a yearly uniform allowance and they are expected to pay for it then...but the O's have to pay for it out of pocket.
So...you are out of luck. ;D
^^^
Mostly correct. When I went through uniform changes, all or part of the initial issue of the new uniform was a freebie, without any effect on my paycheck.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 10, 2010, 07:23:43 PM
^^^
Mostly correct. When I went through uniform changes, all or part of the initial issue of the new uniform was a freebie, without any effect on my paycheck.
You guys must have had a better union in the Navy, because when we went to BDU's in the Air Force we didn't get any extra money to buy them.
You were expected to buy your new BDU's as your old fatigues wore out.
Oh, so you just got the kick in your uni allowance to get the new stuff. The first time they tried to get rid of dungarees, they issued us two sets of the new crap, and changed the uni allowance for further acquisitions.
Ok, listen we should not get rid of any uniforms we have and not adopt new ones. If you think about it while on a SAR mission of a missing person (non crash related actual missing person) people need to realize that there are threats while very small there are potential threats! If it is a missing person and someone has caused the subject to go missing there is a probable chance that that person will try to inject themselves into the search and the BDU as so many of you may not think so, actually assists in keeping the cadet safe, they look trained professional and tougher than they ever would in the BBDU. By the way, there are more SWAT teams that wear the BBDU than do the BDU mainly because they notice that the BDU uniform is useless in an urban environment and the chances of a SWAT team going to a wooded area is very small and even if they do they are probably not going to be trained in woodland tactics. No new uniforms and keep the ones we have.
P.S. I have been on a team where we saved the life of a Marine vet who had Alzheimers and he said oh thank God the Army is here. Later his wife told us that he thought we were military and it relaxed him greatly!
Also I am an Iraq and Afghanistan vet.... we never got more thank a quarter of the special pay that we NEEDED to get a single uniform... we usualy got enough to get a new rack of ribbons and our new rank for our Dress Greens,but not even enough for the Full size medals when the Blues were being standardized... not to mention they didnt pay for the blues either
This board kills me.
I don't understand why people continue to press the "let's get rid of all AF uniforms" issue. We do that, we can stand by and watch our bridge burn and watch the organization crumble.
I don't understand how others can't see this kind of discussion as engineering our finale.
Rather than bickering about uniforms we need to concern ourselves with showing our value to our elected officials and the public, work harder to do our jobs better and continue our education toward FEMA standards.
Just a suggestion.
Quote from: Capt_Redfox30 on May 10, 2010, 04:24:02 PM
How about whatever uniform changes there are going to be no matter how big or small, National pays to outfit everyone in the program with them! Just like all the other Military Branches.
?? When did the RM started paying members extra for uniform changes? Enlisted get a monthly uniform allowance, officers just get an initial allowance. There was not a special allowance anytime there was a new uniform item or a change. I don't remember the BDUs being issued free. The DCUs were issued to us but we couldn't buy them in the clothing store.
Rick
I for one after being the RM for 21-22 yrs is for getting CAP out of the uniform....'cuz of the various issues.
CAP is just getting used to FEMA calling for photo runs and that is a good thing
BUT It has been argued here before......
CAP needs to be a playa (with or without a uniform) in many support functions. CAP can say they have been up with FEMA and the other State EMA's....but i got a sneaking suspicion that CAP legal is trying to fid ways around that even...
Don't rightly know...but I do know alot of State MOU's and MOA's are sitting idle at many State EMA's due to legal types at the various Wings having "problems" meeting up with the right folks........otherwise many of those would have been inked already without a lot of fanfare.
And when those things get signed....please CAP, do it without a dog and pony show. Do the work. Its a liiiiitle more than just lobbying and saying we are a low cost organization to the various State EMA's.....
Quote from: Short Field on May 20, 2010, 06:13:23 PM
Quote from: Capt_Redfox30 on May 10, 2010, 04:24:02 PM
How about whatever uniform changes there are going to be no matter how big or small, National pays to outfit everyone in the program with them! Just like all the other Military Branches.
?? When did the RM started paying members extra for uniform changes? Enlisted get a monthly uniform allowance, officers just get an initial allowance. There was not a special allowance anytime there was a new uniform item or a change. I don't remember the BDUs being issued free. The DCUs were issued to us but we couldn't buy them in the clothing store.
Ok lets crush this little lie... I was enlisted for 5.5 yrs went thru multiple deployments to multiple theaters of action... the RM DOES NOT PAY FOR YOUR UNIFORMS unless you are being deployed. Even then its not enough uniforms to get you through the deployment. You get ONE yearly Uniform allowance for Refit aka UAR pay... but it is nothing compared to the actual cost of the uniforms and parts needed even the Army soldiers will have to buy their own dress blues that are replacing the Dress Greens... alot of tradition and heritage being stolen by the way. But the UAR pay wont even get me my full sized medals that are going to be worn on that uniform... mine alone costs over $300... so no the RM DOES NOT PAY FOR ALL YOUR UNIFORMS
Quote from: heliodoc on May 20, 2010, 07:34:49 PM
I for one after being the RM for 21-22 yrs is for getting CAP out of the uniform....'cuz of the various issues.
And replace it with...?
The "various issues" didn't start happening until the late '80s/early '90s, and we got whacked for it with the berry boards, loss of metal grade insignia and then grey nameplates/boards.
We almost started building bridges back with the AF. I read on here that the powers that be in the AF offered us back metal grade and blue boards, but someone with infinite wisdom at National refused.
Then, of course, the Generalissimo introduced his own uniform, and we were virtually back at square one with the uniform issues.
I long for a more K.I.S.S. approach...
Service dress: metal grade, "CAP" collar dogs for EVERYONE, and the brushed-metal nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol" devised for the CSU.
Blue boards with embroidered "CAP" (or AF boards with pinned-on metal "CAP" cutouts) blue nameplate for the light blue shirt.
BBDU's/jumpsuit, blue or orange flight suit for EVERYONE.
The modified CSU (per General Courter's ICL) for those who choose to, or must because of weight issues/grooming.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 20, 2010, 09:19:16 PM
Quote from: heliodoc on May 20, 2010, 07:34:49 PM
I for one after being the RM for 21-22 yrs is for getting CAP out of the uniform....'cuz of the various issues.
And replace it with...?
The "various issues" didn't start happening until the late '80s/early '90s, and we got whacked for it with the berry boards, loss of metal grade insignia and then grey nameplates/boards.
We almost started building bridges back with the AF. I read on here that the powers that be in the AF offered us back metal grade and blue boards, but someone with infinite wisdom at National refused.
Then, of course, the Generalissimo introduced his own uniform, and we were virtually back at square one with the uniform issues.
I long for a more K.I.S.S. approach...
Service dress: metal grade, "CAP" collar dogs for EVERYONE, and the brushed-metal nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol" devised for the CSU.
Blue boards with embroidered "CAP" (or AF boards with pinned-on metal "CAP" cutouts) blue nameplate for the light blue shirt.
BBDU's/jumpsuit, blue or orange flight suit for EVERYONE.
The modified CSU (per General Courter's ICL) for those who choose to, or must because of weight issues/grooming.
I concur. I don't wear the AF uniform but I think the problem with taking the AF uniform away after so long is what it will do to already shaky morale among so many. If the TPU and CSU had never happened that would have been fine. Why take steps that will be a slap in the face to those who wear the AF uniform. We should work on the various issues.
Bring back the Guayabera Shirt! :o :P :clap: :'(
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on May 22, 2010, 03:08:39 AM
Bring back the Guayabera Shirt! :o :P :clap: :'(
I found mine the other day. Hard to believe that ever actually consituted a uniform for anything other than parking cars or being a busboy.
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on May 22, 2010, 03:08:39 AM
Bring back the Guayabera Shirt! :o :P :clap: :'(
>:(
I guess someone had to say it...
without the usaf uniform no one will recognize us let alone call upon us for sar missions or for public recognition, no parades no airfield recruiting all public appearances will stop. why? because we wont look as good as the boy scouts. there is pride in the uniform the uniform goes the pride and morale goes. so do i and so will so many others. not because of how we look but because of the history and tradition of the uniform. i for one am huge on history and tradition... does anyone know how many died in this uniform in ww2? i know i do and getting rid of the uniform would disgrace their memory and make their memory fade more than it has.
^ "People" call us because of MOU's or legal mandate and because we provide a service at little to no cost, not because of the uniform we wear. Why would public appearance stop. PD, FD, and the ARC seem to function fine in gold shirts and vests.
Your statements suggest that those who do not wear the USAF-style combos are somehow not as worthy or proud as those who do.
Uniforms change for a variety of reasons, suggesting that this somehow disgraces the memory of those who went before is simply incorrect.
For starters, no US service is still wearing the same uniform as they did in WWII.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2010, 05:06:49 AM
...
For starters, no US service is still wearing the same uniform as they did in WWII.
I support khakis! ;D
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2010, 05:06:49 AM
For starters, no US service is still wearing the same uniform as they did in WWII.
I agree with most of your post, but take exception to the quoted portion.
The Navy has two uniforms essentially unchanged from WWII. The first is the E-1 - E-6 enlisted Service Dress uniform. The second is the recently reintroduced E-7 - O-10 Service Dress Khaki uniform.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 22, 2010, 05:32:28 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2010, 05:06:49 AM
For starters, no US service is still wearing the same uniform as they did in WWII.
I agree with most of your post, but take exception to the quoted portion.
The Navy has two uniforms essentially unchanged from WWII. The first is the E-1 - E-6 enlisted Service Dress uniform. The second is the recently reintroduced E-7 - O-10 Service Dress Khaki uniform.
Ahem. You're forgetting the Marines. Blue and green both.
OK, how about this...
Generalizations, for the most part, are always wrong.
I am simply stating how many would feel were the USAF uniform to by the way side, let down and less proud (even some who don't wear the USAF uniform). I for one felt let down when the Army started to get rid of the Dress Greens, I felt a loss of tradition and a lot let down because I felt the Army didn't care for history or tradition, and that it was trying to just look like everyone else with the Blue Service Dress uniform.
The Blues Service Dress uniform is for Cavalry. Many of us felt we were stealing their tradition and their heritage and we were loosing ours. The Army went to the Dress Green Service uniform because green is "the color of the Army" (red is a little closer according to many Infantry types).
I was an Infantryman I must say a rather well decorated one for modern times. I have to say I was proud to wear the Greens. Every chance I got I wore them, not to show myself off but to show my pride and discipline. I Am proud to be a soldier, once a soldier always a soldier.
Just as such the CAP deserves it's connection to the Air Force. They have always been a part of the Air Force. CAP will loose recognition when it looses the uniform, that is how they are recognized from a distance and when people don't know the individual. They see the uniform and they see a military type individual. When they see the aviator shirt and slacks they see a pilot and think nothing of that person being able to help them in an emergency. The USAF uniform conveys a sense of safety, confidence, knowledge, and professionalism.
Just as it is happening with the Army and their new dress uniform, I got it all the time, "I thought Air Force wore silver name plates, not black." I was constantly being confused with Air Force, if not the Air Force I was getting asked what countries military I am with. No one recognized the uniform even with an eagle on my head.
I just feel if CAP were to loose the USAF uniform then we would also loose our credibility and the publics ability to know who we are. Especially the cadets.
They are not taking it away. They are taking away the corporate blue uniform. Why are you fighting something that isn't so?
The army's green is pretty recent. They wore blue all of the way back to the 1700's...
The Cavalry wore the blue uniform no one else. The change from the Greens to the Blues just goes to show how much the military like to change and take uniforms away, which is why CAP needs to be prepared to be told no more USAF uniforms so that we can be ready to stand and prove our case as to why we should get to keep wearing it.
There wasn't much of a Cavalry when the Continental Line wore blue. It was blue in the War of 1812, blue in the Civil War, blue in between...blue for a long time after...
Marines of the Revolution wore green...
1821 - Congressional confirmation of Army wear of National Blue; practical gray wool pantaloons for the winter mud, a tradition of contrasting shades.
The uniform primary color was blue but the Cavalry has always worn the dress Blue Uniform. The Dress Blue uniform has a dark blue, almost black jacket, and light, almost baby blue slacks with a gold trim. that has allways been the cavalry uniform. I have been to many Cavalry balls, and seen their traditions and customs. That is their uniform. The Army is stealing from them. Yes, the Marines of the time wore a green uniform but it was not the Dress Greens. The uniform, I agree needs to be modernized, but not abandoned. Change the jacket layout to similar to the way the USAF did, but not abandon the color. The USAF knew that they should keep the uniform primarily the same when they modernized it, but they did not change it's color or wear style, only taking out the four corner pockets. A more welcome change than abandoning it all together.
Lets just say this, no member of CAP should want to see the USAF style uniform be dropped.
I do!
Might I ask why?
Agreed robert, but this is just idol talk on captalk. The Air Force style is not leaving, not for a long time. With the air force moving over to ABU's the general idea is to keep us in BDU's, since now that the AF is no longer wearing them (or pretty soon, their may be some left out their that haven't moved over to them yet) the BDU's add's another layer of CAP distinction.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 22, 2010, 11:18:45 PM
The uniform primary color was blue but the Cavalry has always worn the dress Blue Uniform. The Dress Blue uniform has a dark blue, almost black jacket, and light, almost baby blue slacks with a gold trim. that has allways been the cavalry uniform. I have been to many Cavalry balls, and seen their traditions and customs. That is their uniform. The Army is stealing from them. Yes, the Marines of the time wore a green uniform but it was not the Dress Greens. The uniform, I agree needs to be modernized, but not abandoned. Change the jacket layout to similar to the way the USAF did, but not abandon the color. The USAF knew that they should keep the uniform primarily the same when they modernized it, but they did not change it's color or wear style, only taking out the four corner pockets. A more welcome change than abandoning it all together.
Is this a practical joke?
I agree that the BDU should be kept, Digi cam is both pointless, and unprofessional looking. Not to mention if it did work to conceal us in the woods, which it doesn't, that would not help us at all. I do totally agree with not changing the field uniform. I really don't think we should change any uniforms. they all serve a purpose and are at the best that they can be. I am not particularly fond of the Aviator shirt style corporate uniform, but it serves a purpose, and looks the best it ever will. There are no amount of changes that will do it any better, and getting rid of it is just another slap in the faces of those who don't meet standards to wear the USAF style uniform for whatever reason. It is not, in most cases, the fault of the individual who cannot meet standards of weight, there are many reasons a person is unable to meet weight standards and it is their right to be in a uniform, if a Col. Marx is contributing to his squadron as their commander but is put on steroids because of lupus he should not be cast out of the unit by being singled out and not allowed to wear a uniform because his steroids that are saving his life are making him gain weight no matter what he does. the same goes for the many who havethyroid problems or anything hereditary that they can't control. They have the right to wear a uniform that looks good and shows their achievements. Respect is what it comes down to, not discriminating against anyone in CAP, come on that is a core value. Respect all who give of their time and not giving them an option is just wrong.
JC004: Is what a practical joke?
Quote from: robert.killion on May 22, 2010, 11:04:18 PM
The Cavalry wore the blue uniform no one else. The change from the Greens to the Blues just goes to show how much the military like to change and take uniforms away, which is why CAP needs to be prepared to be told no more USAF uniforms so that we can be ready to stand and prove our case as to why we should get to keep wearing it.
I wore the Army Dress Blue as a military police officer. I never thought I stole it from the Cav. The entire Army wore blue, with branch colors on the epaulet designating infantry, cavalry, artillery, and others. The tradition goes back at least to the Civil War.
When were you an MP?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 10, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?
Here's my suggestions
1. Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.
2. Aviator Shirt Uniform -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
4. Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.
5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests. Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left) --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
That's all I can think of for now. :angel:
RM
1. No. Blue BDU's and Flight Suits are too expensive. Sage green flight suits are readily available at low cost, and so are woodland BDU's.
2. No. Black pants with a white aviator shirt will look like a cross between an airline pilot and a naval officer. Standardize a shade of gray uniform pants, with gray cargo pants for use with the golf shirt.
3. No. Standardize color, OK. Units should be free to use local unit insignia for morale reasons. Taking shirts off in the field is a BAD idea. Increasing skin exposure to the sun increases heat retention, and leaves the member open to bug bites, scratches from foliage, etc.
4. No. Cadets are here for training, and part of that training is consistent proper uniform wear. Plus, why make cadet membership more costly?
5. No, but a weak "No." OK to standardize vests, but lets not garbage them up with a lot of insignia. Go with one or the other.
6. Adopt AF standards on height/weight? OK, but... Understand that this will involve a body fat determination (I meet the AF body fat standard, but I am overweight on the CAP's weight-only standard); and develop body fat standards for members past 50. I'm not sure how much longer I can hold out on my BF status.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 23, 2010, 03:38:24 PM
When were you an MP?
Enlisted as an MP (Ohio NG) 1976. Commissioned MP officer, 1978. Retired, 1993. Came back into NG, 2002 (after 9/11 and some serious weight reduction). Retired again, 2005.
My Army blues (purchased after OCS, 1978) do not fit anymore.
Yes, in the 60's and 70's there were servicemen that wore the Blues, but not the whole Army, the Army changed the uniform during that time about 8-9 times at least. just from that time period my father has, (that he wore during his service) Blues Greens and Tans. and that is the problem that I have, change just for the sake of change is never a good thing, especially when it comes to what an organization is recognized as wearing. Also, yes anyone and everyone in the Army is ALLOWED to wear the blues, but until now it was never required, and at least as long as I was in, it was highly discouraged, and in the infantry world, you were not allowed to wear them unless wearing the full size medals, and at a formal unit ball.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 10, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?
Here's my suggestions
1. Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.
2. Aviator Shirt Uniform -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
4. Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.
5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests. Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left) --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
That's all I can think of for now. :angel:
RM
1. No – Leave as is or transition seniors only to BBDUs. We have got to keep one of the major enticements for cadets.
2. No – but to Charcoal gray. Turn this uniform into a complete dress uniform combo system.
3. No – let each SQ do their own. Our SQ has one, they love it and promotes local pride.
(http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=168)(http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=169)
4. No – they have enough current uniforms for the job at hand.
5. GET RID OF PLUTO
6. No – just actually enforce it.
A – Develop CAP dress uniform system. Incorporate a flight cap on the White / grays
Why can't any one leave well enough alone? The uniforms we wear are great! I have to correct something, earlier i stated that I have never been mistaken for military. I do know of one Sr. member who was mistaken for a civil police officer... whatever that is. He was wearing the dark blue BDU's. otherwise never a problem around us.
Hmm...all this about the Army green-to-blue...
I wasn't in the Army, but my dad was (4th Armored Division, Erlangen, West Germany).
He was in during the transition from the Ike jacket to the greens. He liked the Ike jacket and hated the greens so badly he refused to wear them until he was ordered to. He never owned the blues; I think he said that only commissioned and warrant officers had to have them back then. I still have his old Ike jacket. I can see why he liked it.
I wish I could have been in the AF/CAP when we had the Ike jacket. They looked cool.
I have never been mistaken for LE, but I once was mistaken for a department store security guard...when I was wearing the light blue shirt and AF trousers order.
I will wear the modified CSU per General Courter's specs until the very last day it is allowed. Why nobody has tried to urge CAP (to my knowledge) to keep that as a permanent uniform is beyond me. It does not look like an AF uniform, especially not with the modifications.
I guess it goes back to being so snakebitten over anything to do with the Generalissimo and anything to do with the colour blue that anyone who has anything to do with CAP uniforms is running scared in the aftermath of the TPU/CSU.
Personally, I think black or dark blue trousers would make the aviator shirt order look a lot better. It may look like an airline pilot or Navy type to an untrained eye, but so what?! No uniform is completely original. It would be better for CAP to look like airline pilots, since many of us are anyway (I'm not). At least looking like an airline pilot would say "aviation." The grey/white does not.
I've worn the BBDU for a while now and they look good when they're new. When they are laundered they become faded and tattered before long. I've had better luck with dry cleaning with the Dryel kit I get at Walmart. The Propper brand works well. There's a midnight blue BDU I saw a Cadet Officer wearing and that one looked pretty good. He told me he got it at a Police Supply store.
The Ike jacket was the pinnacle of the US forces. There has been no better looking or more functional uniform ever so far as dress goes.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 23, 2010, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 10, 2010, 12:36:51 AM
OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?
Here's my suggestions
1. Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.
2. Aviator Shirt Uniform -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.
3. CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants -- Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.
4. Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.
5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests. Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left) --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.
6. Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms -- Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.
That's all I can think of for now. :angel:
RM
1. No. Blue BDU's and Flight Suits are too expensive. Sage green flight suits are readily available at low cost, and so are woodland BDU's.
2. No. Black pants with a white aviator shirt will look like a cross between an airline pilot and a naval officer. Standardize a shade of gray uniform pants, with gray cargo pants for use with the golf shirt.
3. No. Standardize color, OK. Units should be free to use local unit insignia for morale reasons. Taking shirts off in the field is a BAD idea. Increasing skin exposure to the sun increases heat retention, and leaves the member open to bug bites, scratches from foliage, etc.
4. No. Cadets are here for training, and part of that training is consistent proper uniform wear. Plus, why make cadet membership more costly?
5. No, but a weak "No." OK to standardize vests, but lets not garbage them up with a lot of insignia. Go with one or the other.
6. Adopt AF standards on height/weight? OK, but... Understand that this will involve a body fat determination (I meet the AF body fat standard, but I am overweight on the CAP's weight-only standard); and develop body fat standards for members past 50. I'm not sure how much longer I can hold out on my BF status.
I was going to answer the original post, but my answers would have been almost the same as this. The only difference would have been a suggestion that we dump Grey in favor of Khaki. Its a far more commonly found color, doesn't vary a lot in shade, and tends to be cheap.
Khaki... Ok, we could look like navy... no thanx
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 12:52:09 AM
Khaki... Ok, we could look like navy... no thanx
Khaki with a blue polo or a white aviator shirt?
I don't know of any Navy uniforms that use that combination...
White shirt, Navy does have one, well I'm not sure if they still do but they used to.
Why would we have only a polo shirt. That is taking a large part of Civil Air Patrol away. Where would people display their awards? That is just not an option, to me atleast.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 01:05:11 AM
White shirt, Navy does have one, well I'm not sure if they still do but they used to.
Why would we have only a polo shirt. That is taking a large part of Civil Air Patrol away. Where would people display their awards? That is just not an option, to me atleast.
Yes the navy has a white shirt, but not one they wear with khakis. And currently the white aviator shirt and the blue polo are the only thing we wear with the grey slacks. So the proposal for khakis would include, yes, the blue polo.
And the white aviator shirt does not allow for display of awards either.
Exactly, why would we not allow awards. That is part of showing each other where we are in the program, where we have been, and what we do. Why would that ever be taken away. Thank God they wouldn't actually do it.
Thank you TSRUP I thought there was but wasn't sure, but I have to say, it sounds like a Navy uniform to me.
CAP ribbons are allowed in the white shirt, just not military ribbons.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 01:48:39 AM
Exactly, why would we not allow awards. That is part of showing each other where we are in the program, where we have been, and what we do. Why would that ever be taken away. Thank God they wouldn't actually do it.
The current plan to retire the CSU in 2012 with no replacement does exactly that.
The current plan to retire the CSU in 2012 with no replacement does exactly that.
[/quote]
You mean the Corporate uniform, get rid of it and keep the USAF style correct?
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 03:46:08 AM
The current plan to retire the CSU in 2012 with no replacement does exactly that.
You mean the Corporate uniform, get rid of it and keep the USAF style correct?
[/quote]
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 01:48:39 AM
Exactly, why would we not allow awards. That is part of showing each other where we are in the program, where we have been, and what we do. Why would that ever be taken away. Thank God they wouldn't actually do it.
As it stands today, the CSU is the only formal uniform option open to many members which allows for the wear of ribbons, badges, etc., in an equal way with their counterparts who wear the USAF-Style service dress.
The current plan to retire that combo in Jan 2012 leaves only the blazer as the formal option, which does not allow for the wear of grade, badges, or ribbons (beyond the nameplate).
So when you suggest that losing the USAF-style would be detrimental to those who wear it because they could no longer show off their plumage, consider this is already an issue on the table for many members. Goose and gander should be treated equal in a volunteer environment.
A volunteer environment yes, but one that as is stated in even the level one training for SMs one that is based on the USAF and its award and grade and rank structure.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 04:16:34 AM
A volunteer environment yes, but one that as is stated in even the level one training for SMs one that is based on the USAF and its award and grade and rank structure.
Yes - and has been argued in other threads, if that grade and other decs are "important", then the playing field should be level. This isn't about the "you're lucky I showed up at all" mentality, this is about equally recognizing all of those who do.
Perhaps this is something the diversity committee should address, since "diversity" is not limited to ethnicity.
what do you mean diversity isn't limited to ethnicity? Do you have problems with people that are different than you?
I do recognize everyone who comes and gives their time, so long as they aren't cynical to others who do. If they have a problem with others who give of themselves then I have a problem. If you really don't like the structure, then there is a problem. That is the basis of decision making in CAP. I just don't understand how when you swore your oath that you didn't know that CAP is a military organization.
^ Its OK to actually read the messages instead of just making things up to make your arguments.
OK Eclipse, Honesty and integrity may not be your thing, but it is mine. I don't make up my awards.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 04:51:46 AM
OK Eclipse, Honesty and integrity may not be your thing, but it is mine. I don't make up my awards.
Pardon me?
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 04:38:28 AM
I just don't understand how when you swore your oath that you didn't know that CAP is a military organization.
Would you please provide a source and citation for the statement that CAP is a military organization? The following might help you.
CAP is a private, nonprofit, benevolent corporation chartered by Congress at Section 40301 of Title 36 of the U.S. Code. Section 8150 of Title 5 of the U.S. Code makes it clear that CAP members are not granted the status of military or veteran by nature of their CAP membership.
AFI 10-2701 para 1-3 states, "Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired.
While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members
may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members."
Paramilitary? I can buy that. Military? Not likely.
Quote from: tsrup on May 24, 2010, 01:45:39 AMAnd the white aviator shirt does not allow for display of awards either.
Since when?
Or are you referring to military bling in addition to CAP bling?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2010, 04:02:38 AM
As it stands today, the CSU is the only formal uniform option open to many members which allows for the wear of ribbons, badges, etc., in an equal way with their counterparts who wear the USAF-Style service dress.
The current plan to retire that combo in Jan 2012 leaves only the blazer as the formal option, which does not allow for the wear of grade, badges, or ribbons (beyond the nameplate).
So when you suggest that losing the USAF-style would be detrimental to those who wear it because they could no longer show off their plumage, consider this is already an issue on the table for many members. Goose and gander should be treated equal in a volunteer environment.
I think the decision to
completely get rid of the CSU is at best very wrongheaded.
If it's to be got rid of, then why did General Courter make the modifications she did in her ICL?
The modifications more than fill the bill for making the CSU a CAP-distinctive uniform:
Lose metal grade - check.
Lose blue AF epaulettes - check.
Grey epaulettes - check.
Grey nameplate - check.
The view of uniforms "not looking like a military service" is worded so vaguely to not even be cogent.
If an E-1 who forgot his/her glasses walking down the street on an AFB sees a CAP member wearing ANY sort of blue trousers or jacket and hasn't the faintest idea of what CAP is, and goes and complains to their first shirt, and it somehow gets to the ears of a Wing or Region Commander, and then to National, immediately a round of hand-wringing starts at National.
I don't get it at all. Look at photos of CAP up until the early '90s (pre-berry board). We had members wearing uniforms nearly identical to the USAF...with distinguishing marks like CAP cutouts, blue CAP embroidered epaulettes and flight/service cap insignia. As far as I can tell, it worked.
But now it seems that if anything other than the grey/whites is mooted, the hand-wringing starts all over again.
I've postulated that it's either/or:
CAP is trying to purge itself of anything to do with the former Generalissimo.
CAP is still so stung by the berry board days that it walks on eggshells, afraid of anything blue making the above-referenced E-1 mad, that it overcompensates.
Or maybe it's something else.
I just hope National allows the modified CSU to continue.
"CAP is trying to purge itself of anything to do with the former Generalissimo.
CAP is still so stung by the berry board days that it walks on eggshells, afraid of anything blue making the above-referenced E-1 mad, that it overcompensates."
More than likely it is both of these things combined, but word it more like this....
"CAP is trying to purge itself of anything to do with the former Generalissimo, and it is walking on eggshells because we don't need more bad publicity, and cant afford another Generalissimo like attitude"
LOL, "Generalissimo".. well, they surely waited long enough to do it. Ugh.
I just think the whole this, then that, hip-shooting attitude that came with all that, both his doings, and then the undoings of them, are equally as aggravating. To everyone involved, Vanguard, HQ and whatever agreements they have to do WRT to buying any existing stock, etc. It's one gigantic waste and disrespect of volunteer members money.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 24, 2010, 12:52:09 AM
Khaki... Ok, we could look like navy... no thanx
Actually you would look like a Wal-mart or Petco employee, now that I think about it. Almost every retail store out here uses either a red polo over black pants (Staples, Sport Chalet) or blue over Khaki. So good point, we have to avoid those.
That reminded me of this:
http://improveverywhere.com/2006/04/23/best-buy/ (http://improveverywhere.com/2006/04/23/best-buy/)
Watch the video, and see how non-uniform, 'uniforms' hold up. ;-)
..and should we be dressed in similar fashion, hope we're not ever looking for a 406 personal beacon in said store ... At least in great numbers.
Indeed
The Generalissimo and the berry boards.... and stepping on eggshells...'cuz CAP and its lame and willy nilly 39-1 (oh did I just blasphme the 39-1) and its ability for the membership to FOLLOW the USAF in its guidelines ought to scream....CAP in a NEW and non military uniform
These threads will go 'round and 'round in both CAP and CAPTalk until time ends. A new uniform for ALL the anorexoics (sp) and chubby and fuzzies MIGHT get everyone into a semblance of order so ALL can wear ONE uniform...let the 70 yr old identity to a USAF uniform begin...3...2...1 START!
CAP will never get over this stuff (crap) and move on...
Move on.......to a completely new uniform... MAYBE ACU / ABU like everyone is hoping..
Hopefully, there will be "standards" unlike the days and daze of BDU wear.
^ Probably the first time a DVD was sold at a Best Buy without a service plan. ::)
Quote from: heliodoc on May 24, 2010, 05:19:31 PM
Indeed
The Generalissimo and the berry boards.... and stepping on eggshells...'cuz CAP and its lame and willy nilly 39-1 (oh did I just blasphme the 39-1) and its ability for the membership to FOLLOW the USAF in its guidelines ought to scream....CAP in a NEW and non military uniform
These threads will go 'round and 'round in both CAP and CAPTalk until time ends. A new uniform for ALL the anorexoics (sp) and chubby and fuzzies MIGHT get everyone into a semblance of order so ALL can wear ONE uniform...let the 70 yr old identity to a USAF uniform begin...3...2...1 START!
CAP will never get over this stuff (crap) and move on...
Move on.......to a completely new uniform... MAYBE ACU / ABU like everyone is hoping..
Hopefully, there will be "standards" unlike the days and daze of BDU wear.
I agree with Hekiodoc (I think what he is saying) that we should go to ONE set of uniforms for
Seniors that is NOT USAF based.
Charcoal Gray / Whites with option for a LAPD Blue Service coat (As I argued a lot for on other boards).
(http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=96)
Blue BDUs
Kill the polo shirts, blazer, and mess dress. Follow previous cadet lead and substitute a bow tie w/ service coat for semi-formal.
Navy Blue Flight suit
There - we have all of the uniforms we need. Case closed. The only ones that oppose it are the ones that "I'll take off my USAF-style uniform when you peel it from my cold, dead body." We can remain close to our heritage while still in ONE set of uniforms.
CADETS - They stay as-is. (USAF Blues, Woodland BDUs until switch to whatever AF is wearing)
Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on May 24, 2010, 08:50:36 PMI agree with Hekiodoc (I think what he is saying) that we should go to ONE set of uniforms for Seniors that is NOT USAF based.
Charcoal Gray / Whites with option for a LAPD Blue Service coat (As I argued a lot for on other boards).
...
Blue BDUs
Kill the polo shirts, blazer, and mess dress. Follow previous cadet lead and substitute a bow tie w/ service coat for semi-formal.
Navy Blue Flight suit
There - we have all of the uniforms we need. Case closed. The only ones that oppose it are the ones that "I'll take off my USAF-style uniform when you peel it from my cold, dead body." We can remain close to our heritage while still in ONE set of uniforms.
CADETS - They stay as-is. (USAF Blues, Woodland BDUs until switch to whatever AF is wearing)
Seniors in one uniform, cadets in another. Not very "uniform".
For every person that says it'll be a cold day in Hell before they give up blues, there's another one that possesses a similar sentiment about polos. Yeah, they're easy, I own a couple now too.
I remember a time when people thought, "
Don't want to wear blues? Fine, we don't need you!". Seems like a few on this board have the idea, "You
want to wear blues? Fine, we don't need you!"
CAP has always been in a variant of a military uniform. There were probably times when people might not have been admitted if they were outside of weight/grooming standards. But now people wish to take something away from others. It's not about everyone looking alike, it's about everyone being "equal". Not everyone is equal on all accounts.
I've made suggestions about alternate uniforms, ones that I wouldn't have a problem wearing if that's my only option. But it seems like those suggestions were ignored. More important to take something away from someone else, instead of earning the right to something if they can (pay close attention that).
The day is most likely coming that I will not be able to wear the blues. When it does, I'll man up and wear the alternate. But, if I have to give up something just so someone doesn't feel inferior, then I will leave. Because the mission is no longer a concern to the organization.
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 24, 2010, 09:11:52 PM
The day is most likely coming that I will not be able to wear the blues. When it does, I'll man up and wear the alternate. But, if I have to give up something just so someone doesn't feel inferior, then I will leave. Because the mission is no longer a concern to the organization.
What role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2010, 09:14:20 PMWhat role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?
You tell me.
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 24, 2010, 09:15:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2010, 09:14:20 PMWhat role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?
You tell me.
Its your assertion...
Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on May 24, 2010, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: heliodoc on May 24, 2010, 05:19:31 PM
Indeed
The Generalissimo and the berry boards.... and stepping on eggshells...'cuz CAP and its lame and willy nilly 39-1 (oh did I just blasphme the 39-1) and its ability for the membership to FOLLOW the USAF in its guidelines ought to scream....CAP in a NEW and non military uniform
These threads will go 'round and 'round in both CAP and CAPTalk until time ends. A new uniform for ALL the anorexoics (sp) and chubby and fuzzies MIGHT get everyone into a semblance of order so ALL can wear ONE uniform...let the 70 yr old identity to a USAF uniform begin...3...2...1 START!
CAP will never get over this stuff (crap) and move on...
Move on.......to a completely new uniform... MAYBE ACU / ABU like everyone is hoping..
Hopefully, there will be "standards" unlike the days and daze of BDU wear.
I agree with Hekiodoc (I think what he is saying) that we should go to ONE set of uniforms for Seniors that is NOT USAF based.
Charcoal Gray / Whites with option for a LAPD Blue Service coat (As I argued a lot for on other boards).
(http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=96)
Blue BDUs
Kill the polo shirts, blazer, and mess dress. Follow previous cadet lead and substitute a bow tie w/ service coat for semi-formal.
Navy Blue Flight suit
There - we have all of the uniforms we need. Case closed. The only ones that oppose it are the ones that "I'll take off my USAF-style uniform when you peel it from my cold, dead body." We can remain close to our heritage while still in ONE set of uniforms.
CADETS - They stay as-is. (USAF Blues, Woodland BDUs until switch to whatever AF is wearing)
Except that National would probably have a collective coronary over any suggestion that had any shade of
BLUE in it.
Grey seems to have won the day as the default CAP hue (and cry)... :P
Quote from: robert.killion on May 23, 2010, 04:00:28 PM
Yes, in the 60's and 70's there were servicemen that wore the Blues, but not the whole Army, the Army changed the uniform during that time about 8-9 times at least. just from that time period my father has, (that he wore during his service) Blues Greens and Tans. and that is the problem that I have, change just for the sake of change is never a good thing, especially when it comes to what an organization is recognized as wearing. Also, yes anyone and everyone in the Army is ALLOWED to wear the blues, but until now it was never required, and at least as long as I was in, it was highly discouraged, and in the infantry world, you were not allowed to wear them unless wearing the full size medals, and at a formal unit ball.
I beg to differ.
The entire Army wore blues until the late 1800's when the khaki uniform was introduced as a service uniform. The blues were still worn as a formal, "After 6" uniform. Officers were required to have a set by the first formal reception after their commissioning, and most bought them as soon as they pinned on the gold bar.
The requirement to have dress blues was suspended in World War II due to the war emergency.
The Army has recently returned to the Blues as a service dress uniform, but it has always been required for officers, of all branches... not just cav, as a formal uniform. I usually wore ribbons, but when I was overseas, I was directed to wear full size medals at a formal reception in the host country.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2010, 09:27:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 24, 2010, 09:15:21 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 24, 2010, 09:14:20 PMWhat role do our service dress options have in performing the missions?
You tell me.
Its your assertion...
Wanting to believe something doesn't make it fact. Read it again, a few times if necessary. If you don't get it by then, I'm not going to explain it to you.
The first thing I would say is that we need to keep the regulations up to date so it is easier to enforce the standards. This is very hard to do when there is very little information on uniforms in service.
I would like to see the blue formal uniform continue whether it be air force style or CSU, which ever we us it should stay for a long time. The biggest gripe I have heard "Why have they changed it again, I have just spent a fortune getting this uniform and now it is no longer to be used. I am not buying anymore". These members then loose interest and become inactive or leave.
If we go for the grey uniform why not look at the Royal Air Force style uniform. I wear my old RAF pants and the sweater matches the grey rank slides. Its a smart uniform, the pants can be worn with a tunic or the sweater. The RAF blue light weight jacket is the same as the one the US Air Force use so that could be worn with the grey pants.
Lets keep a military style uniform and have up to date regulations.
Quote from: andysum15 on May 26, 2010, 04:57:41 PM
The first thing I would say is that we need to keep the regulations up to date so it is easier to enforce the standards. This is very hard to do when there is very little information on uniforms in service.
I would like to see the blue formal uniform continue whether it be air force style or CSU, which ever we us it should stay for a long time. The biggest gripe I have heard "Why have they changed it again, I have just spent a fortune getting this uniform and now it is no longer to be used. I am not buying anymore". These members then loose interest and become inactive or leave.
If we go for the grey uniform why not look at the Royal Air Force style uniform. I wear my old RAF pants and the sweater matches the grey rank slides. Its a smart uniform, the pants can be worn with a tunic or the sweater. The RAF blue light weight jacket is the same as the one the US Air Force use so that could be worn with the grey pants.
Lets keep a military style uniform and have up to date regulations.
Sir, I agree with everything you say.
However, I have an RCAF "wedge cap," identical to the RAF pattern and very attractive, but it has more blue in it than National seems to be willing to tolerate.
http://www.rmcclub.ca/everitaswp/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shaw_col_resized_jan_06.jpg
http://www.army.dnd.ca/lfwa_hq/Photos/EN2003-254-10D.jpg
The same would go for the pullover jumper.
As much as I dislike it, National is saying that, if you don't wear the AF-type uniform you have a myriad of choices, as long as they are grey and/or polo shirts.
If anything is done with the greys, the best we can hope for is some sort of knockoff of the current Bundeswehr (German Army) uniform:
http://img6.myimg.de/Heer2b5e22.jpg
Note: not Luftwaffe, eeeek, it's blue, can't have that, it'll tick someone off!
http://www.lhd-shop.de/medias/fCUPn8LGMWpytBL2IuBBEd-30.jpg
Or perhaps we can buy out some existing stocks of old East German Air Force uniforms and go from there:
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/tn21bb.jpg
Of course, we'd have to lose the blue piping...can't have blue...in poor light or at a distance, y'know... >:D
My idea has been to use existing airline aircrew uniforms as a basis...but they're blue...("dark navy")
BLAU IST VERBOTEN!
I don't think that blue is forbbidden.
The problem (as I understand it) is that the USAF has a problem with CAP and USAF rank.
I feel that if CAP were to adopt new/different rank insignia then the USAF would not have any problem with us wearing full USAF blues.
But I don't see the rank and file of CAP accepting that.
I really like the idea of using the USAF service coat with a white shirt and (standardized) gray slacks/skirt.
Keep the gray rank slides, keep the gray name tag.
On the field uniform side.
Either keep the BBDU's or move to a solid gray BDU. Solid Gray will make us sort of USAFish, allow us to use the current ACU/ABU web gear better.
For flight suits...we keep the Green flight bags but removed the rank from the shoulder (keep it on the Leather ACNP). We keep the green nomex because of the surplus market will allow us to keep costs down.
And CADETS will still wear the current USAF style uniforms (and maybe the ABU's sometime in the future).
Yes cadets and seniors not wearing the same is not "uniformed" but it is a clear and understandable distingction between the two uniforms.
"Why are you in a different uniform then your son?"
"I'm an adult member of CAP and he is a Cadet Member" as opposed to what we have today "I can't make the weight limits and my mustache is too long".
YMMV.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 26, 2010, 08:02:25 PM
I don't think that blue is forbbidden.
The problem (as I understand it) is that the USAF has a problem with CAP and USAF rank.
I feel that if CAP were to adopt new/different rank insignia then the USAF would not have any problem with us wearing full USAF blues.
But I don't see the rank and file of CAP accepting that.
It's illogical for USAF to have a problem with CAP ranks...they allowed us to use theirs to begin with, and they could just as easily disallow them.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with going to something similar to what Tony McPeak wanted to go to...and, yes, I know it looks Navy/CG/CGAUX!...but maybe with the sleeve rings in light blue (which would look RAF!) or gold (which would look Canadian!).
That way, we could all use the AF Enlisted uniform, which are a lot cheaper, and a lot easier to find surplus/used.
We differ on the issue of grey, sir. I just think it looks like crap and very un-aviation.
As for the rank and file of CAP accepting or not accepting it...we didn't have much of a choice about other, sillier, things like imposition of the berry boards, loss of metal grade and loss of the CSU.
I sincerely believe that NHQ is scared of its own shadow when it comes to anything that they
think will tick off the AF, whether it actually will or not.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 26, 2010, 07:28:17 PM
BLAU IST VERBOTEN!
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/pb7b.jpg (http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/pb7b.jpg) They're grey. I'm SO tempted......
Quote from: Custer on May 27, 2010, 12:10:32 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on May 26, 2010, 07:28:17 PM
BLAU IST VERBOTEN!
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/pb7b.jpg (http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/pb7b.jpg) They're grey. I'm SO tempted......
You can get them a lot cheaper on Evilbay...seriously...other than the cargo pockets (which I see a lot of people who wear the grey trousers using anyway), it's almost something that could be used as a standard...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=320526877603
Quote from: CyBorg on May 26, 2010, 08:45:01 PMI sincerely believe that NHQ is scared of its own shadow when it comes to anything that they think will tick off the AF, whether it actually will or not.
Started thinking that myself. Maybe they think someone on the AF side will explode or something if they don't like the question.
Seems like the best thing to do is make an appointment with whomever would get the ball rolling, tell them that we would like to work more closely and efficiently with the AF, and specifically how to do it. Outline any of CAP's desires, and see what happens. Done in a courteous and professional manner, it may yield fruit. It's kind of like the lottery, you'll never win if you don't buy a ticket.
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 27, 2010, 03:54:55 AM
Started thinking that myself. Maybe they think someone on the AF side will explode or something if they don't like the question.
Seems like the best thing to do is make an appointment with whomever would get the ball rolling, tell them that we would like to work more closely and efficiently with the AF, and specifically how to do it. Outline any of CAP's desires, and see what happens. Done in a courteous and professional manner, it may yield fruit. It's kind of like the lottery, you'll never win if you don't buy a ticket.
The longer we go without honest communication with CAP-USAF - on ANY issue - relations between CAP and the AF are not going to get any better. This is not just limited to uniforms.