The current version of 35-5 has this to say about what happens after you are demoted:
QuoteThe date the demotion is processed by National Headquarters will become the date of grade. It is the commander's discretion whether to count previous time in grade served toward future promotion actions or to require the individual to complete the time-in-grade requirement again.
Two questions:
1. It makes it seem that if you are demoted from a grade that you have already earned then you most likely already have the TIG necessary to obtain that grade (though their are more than a few ways to get a rank without TIG). Why would a commander let the TIG you used to earn the rank the 1st time count towards re-earning the rank? Seems pointless to demote someone and then make them immediately eligible for promotion again.
2. Lets say the commander requires you to start over your time in grade. You presumably already meet the other requirements to get that promotion and after the appropriate period of time you've done the TIG. At this point, what criteria should a commander use in deciding whether to grant the promotion or retain that person in grade longer? Seems to me that this part of the regulation would come into play:
QuoteBe performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
Just how much reform should you expect out of someone before saying that they are now worthy of the grade considering they've already messed up once?
We can assume that if the demotion was for continuous bad performance that we would want to see that change to really good performance.
But, from what I have seen demotions are rarely made due to ongoing poor job performance, but usually relate to a single massive mistake that the person made. They are so rare because it really has to be something bad stupid for CAP to demote you.
If that is the case, how do you judge if someone is "reformed"?
Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2010, 12:16:49 AM
The current version of 35-5 has this to say about what happens after you are demoted:
QuoteThe date the demotion is processed by National Headquarters will become the date of grade. It is the commander's discretion whether to count previous time in grade served toward future promotion actions or to require the individual to complete the time-in-grade requirement again.
Two questions:
1. It makes it seem that if you are demoted from a grade that you have already earned then you most likely already have the TIG necessary to obtain that grade (though their are more than a few ways to get a rank without TIG). Why would a commander let the TIG you used to earn the rank the 1st time count towards re-earning the rank? Seems pointless to demote someone and then make them immediately eligible for promotion again.
2. Lets say the commander requires you to start over your time in grade. You presumably already meet the other requirements to get that promotion and after the appropriate period of time you've done the TIG. At this point, what criteria should a commander use in deciding whether to grant the promotion or retain that person in grade longer? Seems to me that this part of the regulation would come into play:
QuoteBe performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
Just how much reform should you expect out of someone before saying that they are now worthy of the grade considering they've already messed up once?
We can assume that if the demotion was for continuous bad performance that we would want to see that change to really good performance.
But, from what I have seen demotions are rarely made due to ongoing poor job performance, but usually relate to a single massive mistake that the person made. They are so rare because it really has to be something bad stupid for CAP to demote you.
If that is the case, how do you judge if someone is "reformed"?
I've had my promotion held back, but you only have to piss someone off, or do something stupid or simply not do your job to get a demotion which is perfectly legit in the regs.
How do you judge if someone is reformed? Well if they are behaving better, they are putting in more effort or they stop pissing you off :P Its like a cadet being demoted/held back for promotion as well CP can do it to cadets too for similar/same reasons.
I rarely see it done to SMs though (except me).
Assuming that an individual was demoted for cause and said cause was valid....(let's not go down the political road today >:D)
I would say that they should meet the same criteria as anyone else. If the guy was want working at level of his grade due to say lack a maturity or commitment to the program then I would want to see improvement in those areas.
One would assume that a good leader and mentor would also provide good corrective feed back at the time of demotion spelling out exactly what was deficient, what the individual needs to do to correct it and a time frame that the leader expects to see said improvement.
The regulations allow a commander to accelerate the promotion as soon as the individual is working up to the level that he should be.
For example: A Capt is slacking off, not completing assignments or producing fecal matter for assignments. The Commander says..."you do Lt work....we'll make you and LT until you can show me you can do Capt quality work". If after six months the Lt is now working at Capt level...the Commander can promote him.....likewise after 18 months the individual is still not working at Capt level he can retain him in rank.
I suppose I'm really more interested in the people that have made a single bad mistake that caused their demotion. Slackers and poor performers would be relatively easy to deal with.
For example, lets say you're a squadron commander who decided to let your color guard participate in a partisan political rally and you get demoted, but otherwise you're a solid officer.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2010, 01:57:25 AM
I suppose I'm really more interested in the people that have made a single bad mistake that caused their demotion. Slackers and poor performers would be relatively easy to deal with.
For example, lets say you're a squadron commander who decided to let your color guard participate in a partisan political rally and you get demoted, but otherwise you're a solid officer.
Actually I'd be hard pressed to even bother with demoting someone based on performance, ALTHOUGH regs say I can.
I'd be more interested in demoting someone for the above reason, or grossly not following regulations or doing as I say as commander (If I were commander).
I also haven't bothered to get my Captain (been in 4 years) I CAN get my captain I am eligible minus the fact I still need to complete ECI13/OBC I have delayed because I just don't feel I have done enough to BE captain FWIW and I want to DO more than just pencil whip my grade. (and YES I can still be demoted to 2d LT if it were bad enough ;)).
As far as SMs goes, demotion is for more serious causes IMHO when they start to show respect for what they were doing wrong (and correcting it) then I would reconsider until then they can have their demotion stayed. For cadets its a little different (or maybe not) again I would not want the little petty things to cause a cadet to be demoted either since regulations allow for cadets to be demoted as well.
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 02:24:30 AM
I also haven't bothered to get my Captain (been in 4 years) I CAN get my captain I am eligible minus the fact I still need to complete ECI13/OBC
Then you are not eligible.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2010, 02:59:30 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 02:24:30 AM
I also haven't bothered to get my Captain (been in 4 years) I CAN get my captain I am eligible minus the fact I still need to complete ECI13/OBC
Then you are not eligible.
Then I should say I COULD be eligible as soon as I complete OBC happy now? Geeze
Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2010, 01:57:25 AM
I suppose I'm really more interested in the people that have made a single bad mistake that caused their demotion. Slackers and poor performers would be relatively easy to deal with.
For example, lets say you're a squadron commander who decided to let your color guard participate in a partisan political rally and you get demoted, but otherwise you're a solid officer.
I would assume that my wing commander would tell me when he though I was rehabilitated. I would demand that it be part of the punishment.
Basic leadership tells you that you have to spell out how to be rehabilitated for the individual to be able to affectively grow.
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 03:07:11 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2010, 02:59:30 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 02:24:30 AM
I also haven't bothered to get my Captain (been in 4 years) I CAN get my captain I am eligible minus the fact I still need to complete ECI13/OBC
Then you are not eligible.
Then I should say I COULD be eligible as soon as I complete OBC happy now? Geeze
I am simply amused at the mental gymnastics people use to rationalize things.
You're either eligible or you're not - its the same as saying you'd could be eligible for Level IV if you complete RSC. Well, yes, so is everyone else.
One of the points of these extra steps is as a gateway of effort and knowledge to the PD levels and grades. It may not be rocket science, but its a requirement that has stalled many a member from moving past their initial grade.
Complete level II and refuse promotion and then you can talk about how you can't be bothered with it.
As to the OP, I'm honestly not sure what sort of situation I would find myself in that would be serious enough to warrant a demotion, yet not serious to warrant a termination, and would still have me interested in remaining a member.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2010, 03:17:39 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 03:07:11 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2010, 02:59:30 AM
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 02:24:30 AM
I also haven't bothered to get my Captain (been in 4 years) I CAN get my captain I am eligible minus the fact I still need to complete ECI13/OBC
Then you are not eligible.
Then I should say I COULD be eligible as soon as I complete OBC happy now? Geeze
I am simply amused at the mental gymnastics people use to rationalize things.
You're either eligible or you're not - its the same as saying you'd could be eligible for Level IV if you complete RSC. Well, yes, so is everyone else.
One of the points of these extra steps is as a gateway of effort and knowledge to the PD levels and grades. It may not be rocket science, but its a requirement that has stalled many a member from moving past their initial grade.
Complete level II and refuse promotion and then you can talk about how you can't be bothered with it.
pssh talk about people rationalizing things such as yourself :D
Yeah sure I can complete my Level II and then refuse promotion because they'll do it anyway! Actually I HATE that ECI13 course I NEVER EVER want to see it again! I took one good look at it and said nawww... now OBC is here I'm more motivated but I am not ready I am not going to waste my time until I've gotten my feet REALLY wet in CAP if I can't do that then I see no point.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2010, 03:19:43 AM
As to the OP, I'm honestly not sure what sort of situation I would find myself in that would be serious enough to warrant a demotion, yet not serious to warrant a termination, and would still have me interested in remaining a member.
how about OPSEC violation? Would that be grounds for demotion or termination? I guess termination.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 27, 2010, 12:16:49 AM
The current version of 35-5 has this to say about what happens after you are demoted:
QuoteThe date the demotion is processed by National Headquarters will become the date of grade. It is the commander's discretion whether to count previous time in grade served toward future promotion actions or to require the individual to complete the time-in-grade requirement again.
Two questions:
1. It makes it seem that if you are demoted from a grade that you have already earned then you most likely already have the TIG necessary to obtain that grade (though their are more than a few ways to get a rank without TIG). Why would a commander let the TIG you used to earn the rank the 1st time count towards re-earning the rank? Seems pointless to demote someone and then make them immediately eligible for promotion again.
I read this a little differently.
Let's say you are a 1st Lt with 1 year TIG out of the 18 months required for promotion to Capt. You screw the pooch and are demoted to 2d Lt. You work your butt off, earn your Commander's respect back, and are promoted back to 1st Lt. Now, the question becomes: Does the 1 year you already served as a 1st Lt count towards a "future promotion" to Capt (meaning you need only 6 more months), or are you back to zero TIG as 1st Lt and need the full 18 months TIG? The Reg is saying that it's the Commander's discretion.
However, I could also see this as applying to the demotion.. If you are demoted to 2d Lt, are you immediately promotable (once you unscrew the pooch) or do you have to serve TIG to make 1st Lt again?
Unfortunately, it's another reg that generates more questions than it answers.
Senior demotion is, sadly, like "adult detention." Its most cases its just...silly.
Not to delve too deeply into the political motives, but a number of years ago one of my fellow squadron commanders was demoted from Captain to 1st Lt. It was a completely bogus move by the wing commander, and the sad thing was: everybody knew it.
The demoted Captain filed a MARB complaint, and was subsequently vindicated. (yay, score one for the MARB, right?) But during the time the demoted Capt wore 1st Lt, we (his fellow squadron commanders) would consistently refer to him as "Captain." Even at commanders calls, in front of the wing commander and everybody. (call it a little "civil disobedience" What was he going to do? Demote us for a slip of the tongue? <GRIN>)
Quote from: mynetdude on April 27, 2010, 03:38:04 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2010, 03:19:43 AM
As to the OP, I'm honestly not sure what sort of situation I would find myself in that would be serious enough to warrant a demotion, yet not serious to warrant a termination, and would still have me interested in remaining a member.
how about OPSEC violation? Would that be grounds for demotion or termination? I guess termination.
I think it would depend. Was the disclosure intentional or unintentional? Was it a major breach or a minor one? Did the disclosure have deleterious results on CAP, another member, a member of the public, or another organization? Did it compromise a mission? Did it get CAP sued? Is the individual remorseful? Has the individual been a good member? Have they had other infractions in the past?
Obviously, if someone is spilling the beans about important matters, you'd probably go the termination route. If it is a minor breach, a private reprimand. Demotion would be in that vast gray area in between, IMHO.
Quote from: NIN on April 27, 2010, 11:34:37 AM
The demoted Captain filed a MARB complaint, and was subsequently vindicated. (yay, score one for the MARB, right?) But during the time the demoted Capt wore 1st Lt, we (his fellow squadron commanders) would consistently refer to him as "Captain." Even at commanders calls, in front of the wing commander and everybody. (call it a little "civil disobedience" What was he going to do? Demote us for a slip of the tongue? <GRIN>)
Not exactly what you're supposed to do in a military-styled organization. But sometimes even our leaders can be bullies and have to be sent a subtle message, like you did here. I'm sure your squadron commander was both horrified and honored by the gesture. Funny!
People make mistakes and, are accountable for them. A demotion in grade (when appropriate) is an available "payment" for such. When a member shows that they learned how to conduct themself properly, they should be allowed to be promoted to their original grade. I usually allowed 6 months before a review. A demotion in grade should be done during a "counseling" session. Objectives, goals and a timeline should be established for the member; to understand what the process is and, how to achieve restoration of their previous grade.
Quote from: FW on April 27, 2010, 02:13:26 PM
People make mistakes and, are accountable for them. A demotion in grade (when appropriate) is an available "payment" for such. When a member shows that they learned how to conduct themself properly, they should be allowed to be promoted to their original grade. I usually allowed 6 months before a review. A demotion in grade should be done during a "counseling" session. Objectives, goals and a timeline should be established for the member; to understand what the process is and, how to achieve restoration of their previous grade.
Yeah! What he said! ;D
Quote from: FW on April 27, 2010, 02:13:26 PM
People make mistakes and, are accountable for them. A demotion in grade (when appropriate) is an available "payment" for such. When a member shows that they learned how to conduct themself properly, they should be allowed to be promoted to their original grade. I usually allowed 6 months before a review. A demotion in grade should be done during a "counseling" session. Objectives, goals and a timeline should be established for the member; to understand what the process is and, how to achieve restoration of their previous grade.
FW: Exactly. It's just good management and fairness to give people a defined path back.
Quote from: tdepp on April 27, 2010, 01:19:20 PM
Not exactly what you're supposed to do in a military-styled organization. But sometimes even our leaders can be bullies and have to be sent a subtle message, like you did here. I'm sure your squadron commander was both horrified and honored by the gesture. Funny!
Oh yeah, you can bet I was on tenterhooks being a wiseacre like that. Goes against my military "up-bringing," so to speak.
But when your duly appointed commander abuses his authority, continually plays fast and loose with the rules, and treats our valuable members like dirt? And particularly when its widely and clearly known that it was a complete dick move? Yeah, my integrity doesn't always allow me to just sit there and smile while someone is clearly in the wrong and doesn't have the spine to admit it. (although it does allow me to grin a little while I'm being a complete wiseacre!)
The funny thing was: I have no doubt in my mind that my fellow unit commander will eventually command this wing at some point. He's young, smart (MIT grad, dontchaknow?), a highly accomplished pilot, a successful business owner, and an all around nice guy.
The thing was: To get demoted, he called the wing commander on something that while it might not have been a strict black & white violation of the regulations (actually, it might have been), it was surely a breach of good sense, ethics, fiduciary duties of a corporate officer and even flight safety. And the wing commander's response to getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar was to demote this fellow. Which the the entire wing, and eventually the MARB, saw right thru.
The wing commander had my fairly unflagging support right up until the moment I got the phone call from my colleague asking me for advice on how to fight a demotion action. It was at that moment I realized that my commander had ceased to earn my respect, and in fact, had taken my trust in his fidelity and abilities and tossed it out the window.
So my friend the Captain, even as a 1st Lt, continued to be my friend the Captain. (Sadly, I slip badly, and my friend also continued to be "the Captain" even after his promotion to "Major," so I think it might have been a net wash...<GRIN>)
Quote from: FW on April 27, 2010, 02:13:26 PM
People make mistakes and, are accountable for them. A demotion in grade (when appropriate) is an available "payment" for such. When a member shows that they learned how to conduct themself properly, they should be allowed to be promoted to their original grade. I usually allowed 6 months before a review. A demotion in grade should be done during a "counseling" session. Objectives, goals and a timeline should be established for the member; to understand what the process is and, how to achieve restoration of their previous grade.
When that member is demoted and decides to stay on, he should be counseled as to what is expected to be reinstated to his previous grade and when he could expect to be reinstated. I am assuming that his previous Date of Rank is used at the lower grade.
Yes, of course, give them a defined path back up the ranks, but I qualify that very cautiously. I would have to be really convinced that that individual's behavior changed or the issue corrected before I would consider a new promotion.
We are a volunteer organization where the rank, badges, ribbons, etc., are the only things that are tangible rewards for service, so a reduction in grade is a very sad thing, indeed.
The problem, however, is that too many times a person was demoted for a cause and then starts using any number of cards or political contacts to restore their rank. Case in point, HWSRN, look at the mess that we as an organization have had to dig ourselves out of.
The first six months of my service as a group commander involved three 2Bs. One of those cases was procedural and the issue corrected itself in time. One case, I absolutely can't talk about, but the other, involving a lieutenant reduced to senior member, was for a cause and that individual never learned. You would have been shocked at the number of the different cards that were drawn and the people who contacted me to reverse my decision. The individual, however, never challenged the appeal process and his behavior never changed. He eventually dropped out of the program.
Just read the MARB publications that is readily available, it doesn't state a lot of specifics but it will tell you which/who was denied and approved/reversed through the appeals process.