Just a little note to let you folks know that there are some new awards going up for a vote through the development committee sometime within the near future. And a new qualification badge as well. The designs have been finished and the quals have been partially decided. They have to be approved by the committe and then voted on by the board and approved eventually by the Air Force. The "names" for some are preliminary and also have to be approved.
They are listed in order of precedence:
Distinguished Flying Service
Aerial Achievement
Border Patrol
Incident Commander Badge
Do you have any pictures of the designs?
Yes I do have pictures of all of them but cannot release them until after I get permission from my boss!!
:( ok. What ever happened to that HLS ribbon?
I have heard of it but I dont have anything to do with it directly. I am not sure of the status. It may be going up for review at the same time as the others.
What is the procedure for members submitting suggestions for new awards or badges?
Like anything else you have to go through the chain of command. Trying to get them to do another ribbon or anything else for that matter is extremely difficult. In most instances there are allready things that cover current categories. If you feel that you have a good idea for one and you do not see anything that currently covers it than you submit it through the chain of command. Most of the time it comes from a Regional Level member or NHQ. In the case of the current ones being proposed they came from NHQ and the National Commander. As far as the designing portion is concerned that first goes through the Historical Committee and we have people who specialize in Heraldry Design. All of the designers submit their suggestions and designs and the powers at NHQ decide on what represents the award better. They may take all or part of a design or mix them until they are satisfied with it. Then it goes through some committees and then to the Air Force for final approval.
Instead of coming up with our own Distinguished Flying Award and Aerial Achievement Award we should just use the Air Force awards, for which CAP members are eligible as civilians.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 14, 2006, 11:07:03 PM
Instead of coming up with our own Distinguished Flying Award and Aerial Achievement Award we should just use the Air Force awards, for which CAP members are eligible as civilians.
Except we will never be eligible for them because they are both combat medals.
[edit]Oops...we would be eligible for the Aerial Achievement and maybe the Air Medal...but the DFC is a combat award.
Another problem with getting USAF level awards is that we would have to show that the action contributed directly to the USAF mission....and being SAR ready (thus releasing pilots for combat operations is not enough).
If the action occured on an Air Force assigned mission I don't see how it could be said it didn't contribute to the AF....
When you have an award that is governed by the Air Force it also has to be approved by the Air Force everytime they want to award it. This type of award allows CAP to set the standard for the award and not the AF. That approach has allready been considered. Good thought though.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 14, 2006, 01:28:01 PM
Just a little note to let you folks know that there are some new awards going up for a vote through the development committee sometime within the near future. And a new qualification badge as well. The designs have been finished and the quals have been partially decided. They have to be approved by the committe and then voted on by the board and approved eventually by the Air Force. The "names" for some are preliminary and also have to be approved.
They are listed in order of precedence:
Distinguished Flying Service
Aerial Achievement
Border Patrol
Incident Commander Badge
Unfortunately they are four awards that are only going to be awarded to a very small segment of the CAP Membership. Distinguished Flying Service, Aerial Achievement and Border Patrol are all aimed at air crews and pilots. Border Patrol is only going to effect those in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas as well. Why do we need an IC Badge? We've already got an ES Qualification badge and most likely an IC would qualify with a Master or Senior Rating. In addition most IC's that I've run across are also pilots and wear wings.
Does anyone have all that much confidence in CAP's standards for awards? Just look at some of the recent awards for "herorism" that were highlighted in the Volunteer a few issues back. We gave out high honors to a certain MG for directing traffic around an accident site and others for providing some basic first aid. Worthy of an award, sure. But a heroism award?
I'd rather have the AF be in charge of issuing the awards just like the CG is in charge of issuing CG awards to the CG Aux. Same award, same issuing authority, same standard.
By the way, why do we need a "Border Patrol" award anyway?
Quote from: RiverAux on November 15, 2006, 04:05:24 AM
Does anyone have all that much confidence in CAP's standards for awards? Just look at some of the recent awards for "herorism" that were highlighted in the Volunteer a few issues back. We gave out high honors to a certain MG for directing traffic around an accident site and others for providing some basic first aid. Worthy of an award, sure. But a heroism award?
I'd rather have the AF be in charge of issuing the awards just like the CG is in charge of issuing CG awards to the CG Aux. Same award, same issuing authority, same standard.
By the way, why do we need a "Border Patrol" award anyway?
Just thinking here....
If you are in a state that does a lot of flying missions for the state department of highways or transportation you can be awarded the "Highways and Byways Medal".
If you are in a state that flies missions looking for mountain lions you can be awarded the "Tony the Tiger" Medal.
If you are a surviving Wing or Region Commander perhaps the "Cobra Commander Award of Merit" should be awarded to you.
Quote from: CAP Sergeant on November 15, 2006, 04:03:59 AM
Unfortunately they are four awards that are only going to be awarded to a very small segment of the CAP Membership. Distinguished Flying Service, Aerial Achievement and Border Patrol are all aimed at air crews and pilots. Border Patrol is only going to effect those in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas as well. Why do we need an IC Badge? We've already got an ES Qualification badge and most likely an IC would qualify with a Master or Senior Rating. In addition most IC's that I've run across are also pilots and wear wings.
The ES qual badge is a specialty track badge, not an ES skill identifier. As an MRO I can qualify for the ES badge without being an IC. Also, the ES badge has no bdu/bbdu/flightsuit counterpart.
Which is why I proposed and sent up the chain an ES badge specifically for es qualifications. The highest level would only be worn by IC/AL qualified members.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 15, 2006, 12:09:44 AM
If the action occured on an Air Force assigned mission I don't see how it could be said it didn't contribute to the AF....
It does contribute....but not enough to justify a medal.
On active duty....it takes 100's of flying hours to get an Aerial Achievement Medal and usually (but not always) someone shooting at you to get an Air Medal. I just don't see a situation where you could convince some USAF Wing Commander what we do in our daily mission is anything nearly deserving of an AAM or AM.
With that said....by the letter of the regulation would could be eligible....so if we ever save the world in our C-182 (it could happen) I'm sure we would get an Air Medal for it.
What we do need is similar awards that match the USAF awards but with scaled down criteria.
Before starting on this project I had to do some researchof my own. Here are some of my "findings". All branches of the Armed Forces and the Coast Guard have similar criteria for their awards so they wont be redundant. They also have branch specific additional requirements because of location, type of mission, and congressional mandates. Here are some comparisons to think about.
According to recent order of precedence charts the:
Navy Has 74 ribbons/awards available
Air force Has 68 Ribbons/awards available
Marine Corps Has 67 Ribbons/awards available
Army Has 64 ribbons/awards available
Civil Air Patrol Has 44 ribbons/citations available
CAP is trying to adjust to its expanded missions and feedback from members current and those that have left. Is it a shame to try and recognize an individual for their work. There are awards that cover larger situations and those that are "campaign" type specific. The active military adds a new one for each new "campaign/mission". As far as being segregated from a "award" due to geographical location.....maybe someday you may move. Personally I dont question to any great extent if I feel someone earns an award they are given. If I weren't there how can I be sure that they dont disurve it. I am sure that the sentiment of those people who were helped and given first aid would be different on their disurving of an award for stopping and helping. Whether it was to direct goose neckers, and other crazy drivers trying to get a glimpse of it around an allready bad situation or to render aid to someone who has a small injury that could become a big one if not caught early. After all they didn't have to stop.....but isn't that what we are about.....helping our fellow citizens in time of need.
Jim the 44 awards that CAP has on the current order of presidence, doesn't even include awards noi longer given and not worn. Such as the ECI ribbon and others I can't think of.
BillB
I know the ones you are talking about. Most of those were replaced with modern day equivelants so there is really not that many. Thanks for the reminder.
If you take a look at the example of how to write an Air Medal citation in the AF awards manual (bringing in a crippled plane without injury to the crew or damage on the ground) you will see that much the same thing could happen to a CAP plane while on a AF assigned mission. Why would the CAP pilot's achievement not be as worthy of the same medal for the same reason as an AF pilot might get -- especially since the Air Medal can be awarded to civilians?
Quote from: RiverAux on November 16, 2006, 12:11:06 AM
If you take a look at the example of how to write an Air Medal citation in the AF awards manual (bringing in a crippled plane without injury to the crew or damage on the ground) you will see that much the same thing could happen to a CAP plane while on a AF assigned mission. Why would the CAP pilot's achievement not be as worthy of the same medal for the same reason as an AF pilot might get -- especially since the Air Medal can be awarded to civilians?
Cause the Air medal requires the plane in the scenerio to be crippled in cobat operations. The Ariel Achievment medal is the one you're thinking of. It is the same thing w/o combat, is awardable to civilians, and has been several times over recent years to contractors.
We had a discussio around here somewhere about pursuing an AFI spelling out what AF decorations are awardable to civilians, what ones are awardable to members of the military but CAP might qualify for when on AFAMs, and how CAP members should be nominated to the AF for those awards, plus the justifications & benefits to military personnel for doing so. I strongly recommend NHQ pursue such an AFI with the AF. I feel creation of additional CAP decorations takes away the justifaction for those specific AF awards, when really the initiative is about giving the AF the opportunity to recognize CAP members for service to the AF rather than getting some more stupid bling on uniforms.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 16, 2006, 12:11:06 AM
If you take a look at the example of how to write an Air Medal citation in the AF awards manual (bringing in a crippled plane without injury to the crew or damage on the ground) you will see that much the same thing could happen to a CAP plane while on a AF assigned mission. Why would the CAP pilot's achievement not be as worthy of the same medal for the same reason as an AF pilot might get -- especially since the Air Medal can be awarded to civilians?
I would like to know how to get the Aerial Achievement Medal citation awarded. I know a CAP pilot that needs to be awarded this citation. During the Katrina relief mission he was flying over Louisiana in the middle of the night when his aircraft's engine cut out and he landed the disabled aircraft on IH-10 between 2 18 wheelers doing 70 mph. Not a scratch on his aircraft not a bruise on his crew. He says "You haven't experienced wake turbulence until you try to dead stick land behind a semi doing 70 miles an hour."
Who, what, and how is the process started to get this award conferred?
Holy Crap! I never heard that one. :clap: That meets the standard in my book.
Who/how/why, etc is the focus of the AFI we'd like to have written to help AF personnel understand what is otherwise a complicated process. It has to be submitted by someone in the AF that was in the chain of command for that mission. That'd be CAP-USAF or someone at 1AF. Then it goes up the CAP-USAF or 1AF chain to the SecAF who is the approving authority for all military awards to civilians. In the AFI, we'd like to simplify that process to ALSO allow CAP members to recommend other CAP members thru CAP-USAF & for them to be approved at the AU or AETC (or 1AF) when appropriate for the award in question.
Sounds like I have some work to do to get this conferred upon this pilot.
yeah, but honestly it's not that hard. You'd just need to read the requirements & sample recommendation, interview eye witnesses (get written statements w/ contact info), and write such a recommendation from them. Then get LtCol Brown to sell a CAP-USAF officer at Region to sign it & pass it up the chain. That's all you can do. It'll be out of your hands & a long hard process up the chain, but it sounds right & should theoretically make it up the chain. I'd make sure to CC a copy to 1AF CC so he know's it's floating out there & can get it moving.
A very important point to make. I see alot of discussion of what should be the criteria and who should be put in for it. This award is only in the developmental stages and has not been evaluated by the CAP or the AF. There is no criteria for it now and it will be atleast March of 2007 before anything concrete is done. These awards all have to go through the normal and long approval process. The earliest it could be done would be at the National Board in Washington DC March of 2007. It has to be voted on. I personally do not see the AF being ready to start approving Air Medal citations for CAP activities on a normal or even rare occasion. The costs associated would be to much for either side to agree to. I can honestly say I am surprised by some of the responses (negative that is) about our members being recognized. In talking with previous members one of their biggest complaints and reasons they left is because they felt that they were doing alot of work and NOT being dually recognized. I see this as an effort to help bridge that gap.
That incident was one that I had heard of and was one of the incidents I would think would warrant an AF award.
By the way if you refer to the DoD Awards (1348.33M) manual it does not limit the Distinguished Flying Cross to combat operations. From page 100:
QuoteThe Distinguished Flying Cross may be awarded to any persons who, after
April 6, 1917, while serving in any capacity with the United States Armed Forces,
distinguish themselves by heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight.
Same goes for the Air Medal:
QuoteAwarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the United States, subsequent to September 8, 1939, distinguishes himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement while participating in an aerial flight.
and the Aerial Achievement Medal:
QuoteAwarded for sustained meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight.
The Katrina incident is definetely worthy of the Air Medal in my book.
Quote from: carnold1836 on November 16, 2006, 12:46:43 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 16, 2006, 12:11:06 AM
If you take a look at the example of how to write an Air Medal citation in the AF awards manual (bringing in a crippled plane without injury to the crew or damage on the ground) you will see that much the same thing could happen to a CAP plane while on a AF assigned mission. Why would the CAP pilot's achievement not be as worthy of the same medal for the same reason as an AF pilot might get -- especially since the Air Medal can be awarded to civilians?
I would like to know how to get the Aerial Achievement Medal citation awarded. I know a CAP pilot that needs to be awarded this citation. During the Katrina relief mission he was flying over Louisiana in the middle of the night when his aircraft's engine cut out and he landed the disabled aircraft on IH-10 between 2 18 wheelers doing 70 mph. Not a scratch on his aircraft not a bruise on his crew. He says "You haven't experienced wake turbulence until you try to dead stick land behind a semi doing 70 miles an hour."
Who, what, and how is the process started to get this award conferred?
Quote from: From AFI 36-2803 para 9.29.2. Awarding United States Decorations to US Citizens. Base the award of US military decorations to
US citizens on an act or service that would satisfy the criteria governing the award of the decoration to a
member of the Armed Forces of the US. See table 2.1 for US military decorations awarded to US civilians:
9.2.1. Recommendations must include a memorandum or letter format of the RDP DECOR 6, narrative
justification, citation, and biography. Forward recommendations through command channels to
HQ AFPC/DPPPRA.
Quote from: from DOD 1428.33-MAP1.1.2.24. Air Medal
AP1.1.2.24.1. Authorized by Executive Order 9158, as amended
(reference (www)).
AP1.1.2.24.2. Awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity
with the Armed Forces of the United States, subsequent to September 8, 1939,
distinguishes himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement while
participating in an aerial flight.
AP1.1.2.24.3. Subsequent to April 1974, the letter "V" may be authorized
by the Navy and Marine Corps.
AP1.1.2.25. Aerial Achievement Medal
AP1.1.2.25.1. Authorized by the Secretary of the Air Force, February 5,
1988.
AP1.1.2.25.2. Awarded for sustained meritorious achievement while
participating in aerial flight.
So....what you have to do is write up the recommendation send it up the chain to NHQ who will send it HQ USAF for them to approve or disapprove.
Thank you everyone I will be working on this over the next few weeks to get it going up the chain. I would hope that 6 months will be long enough time for it to go up. We will be having our bi-annual awards ceremony in May.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 16, 2006, 03:21:35 AM
A very important point to make. I see alot of discussion of what should be the criteria and who should be put in for it. This award is only in the developmental stages and has not been evaluated by the CAP or the AF. There is no criteria for it now and it will be atleast March of 2007 before anything concrete is done. These awards all have to go through the normal and long approval process. The earliest it could be done would be at the National Board in Washington DC March of 2007. It has to be voted on. I personally do not see the AF being ready to start approving Air Medal citations for CAP activities on a normal or even rare occasion. The costs associated would be to much for either side to agree to. I can honestly say I am surprised by some of the responses (negative that is) about our members being recognized. In talking with previous members one of their biggest complaints and reasons they left is because they felt that they were doing alot of work and NOT being dually recognized. I see this as an effort to help bridge that gap.
I don't have any problem with awarding our people, God Knows we don't do it enough and when we do we set the bar so that it is next to impossible to be awarded anything above a Commanders commendation.
My problem I am having with these awards is that only a select few will ever be able to earn them. Ground team and mission base personnel work just as hard if not harder than some flight Crews.
The Airman's Medal could be an option for heroric actions by ground team members on AFAM.
From DoD Awards Manual
QuoteAP1.1.2.18.2. Awarded pursuant to Section 8750 of reference (qqq) to
members of the Armed Forces of the United States or foreign military personnel who, while serving in any capacity with the United States Air Force, distinguish themselves by heroism involving voluntary risk of life under conditions other than those of actual conflict with an enemy.
The AF manual says it can be awarded to civilians but this says member of the Armed Forces (which CAP isn't), so there may be a problem with this one....
Interestingly enough, if you read the DoD requirements for a Purple Heart it looks like a CAP member would be eligible if injured or killed in a terrorist attack while on an AF assigned mission.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 17, 2006, 02:32:38 AM
Interestingly enough, if you read the DoD requirements for a Purple Heart it looks like a CAP member would be eligible if injured or killed in a terrorist attack while on an AF assigned mission.
Which we hope NEVER happens...the paperwork alone would be a nightmare. :)
An airman medal (same as soldier's medal) is the highest decoration for heroism that CAN be awarded for non-combat actions. Save a bus load of kids kinda thing.
Chris, talk to LtCol Brown to get some help.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 14, 2006, 01:53:35 PM
Yes I do have pictures of all of them but cannot release them until after I get permission from my boss!!
When's that gonna be?
Need some help posting a picture of the awards. Any suggestions. I see an image button but not certain how to attach.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 20, 2006, 01:21:01 PM
Need some help posting a picture of the awards. Any suggestions. I see an image button but not certain how to attach.
First you need to upload the picture to a photo hosting site. My favorite is:
http://www.photobucket.com/ (http://www.photobucket.com/)
It's the easiest to use and it's free. Open your account, upload the photo, then under each photo you upload are the image URL's, depending on where your going to post them. Just select the one that has IMG in brackets [ ], cut and paste that into your post and that's it. Do not click on the 'Insert Image' button (here), as it will add an extra set of image tags.
Quote from: caphistorian on November 20, 2006, 01:21:01 PM
Need some help posting a picture of the awards. Any suggestions. I see an image button but not certain how to attach.
Below the "Message" box is an "Additional Options" drop. Click this and you'll see a small box labeled "Attach:" At the right side of the box is a button labeled "Browse". Click this button and an "Open File" window will open. Navigate in this window to the file you want to attach. Double click on the file. If you want to add more files, there is a link to the right of the Browse button for more attachements. Click this and repeat as needed for a max four attachements.
As an aside, would it possible to send you a couple of ideas I have for evaluation before submitting them through the chain?
Quote from: arajca on November 20, 2006, 02:10:29 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on November 20, 2006, 01:21:01 PM
Need some help posting a picture of the awards. Any suggestions. I see an image button but not certain how to attach.
Below the "Message" box is an "Additional Options" drop. Click this and you'll see a small box labeled "Attach:" At the right side of the box is a button labeled "Browse". Click this button and an "Open File" window will open. Navigate in this window to the file you want to attach. Double click on the file. If you want to add more files, there is a link to the right of the Browse button for more attachements. Click this and repeat as needed for a max four attachements.
As an aside, would it possible to send you a couple of ideas I have for evaluation before submitting them through the chain?
Roger what
arajca said -- attach it to you post by clicking "Additional Options" and following his directions. Having them hosted here on CAPTalk ensures they'll be around, whereas posting them to an outside website can't ensure that.
Let's have a look at these! I'm curious ;)
Here are the designs. Remember that these are going to be done in metal and not color. The ribbons will look like the medal. The IC badge may or may not be color (i doubt it). It will probably be all metal. The designs have allready been approved and wont be changed unless the National Board directs. So no beating up the designer.
I know our southern border is of concern right now, but don't you think putting a cactus on the Border Patrol Medal just slightly limiting?
What happens when we need to start fending off our neighbors to the north? ;D
Oh, and on the whole photo posting bit. I didn't know that option was there, otherwise I would have suggested that as well. Photobucket is nice though.
Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 20, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
Oh, and on the whole photo posting bit. I didn't know that option was there, otherwise I would have suggested that as well. Photobucket is nice though.
There is a limit to the file size and type though, so off-site hosting may still be needed for some files.
It appears the designer used the Army air assault badge as a base for the IC badge.
A question I have about the IC badge - will wear of it be required?
The Air Assault wings werent used. The "furled wings" are like those of the Glider Badge wings from WWII. They are furled to show availability of air support but not as a pilot. I dont know if wear will be required. It will be like other badges I would guess.
Not Glider Pilot, Glider Badge (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/badges/glider%20badge.htm)... And it does appear more like the Air Assault Badge (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/badges/Air%20Assault%20Badge.htm) wing design.
Thanks for the feedback. Although the Glider Badge was the design that was "followed" the Air Assault furled wings are 98% the same. The tips of the glider wings were edited out and cleaned up. The Glider Badge was used as reference vs the air assault because of the Glider aircraft representation of a "light" aircraft. The Air Assault of course uses a rotary / helicopter design. I have added the full explanation of the colors and reasoning of the designs.
Well those are bad for starters, but I've given up having CAP design things that are worth a crap. I do believe there is a border patrol ribbon from WWII still authorized that would be best dusted off for this use. Then again, there should be no decoration for mission types (disaster, SaR, CN, HLS, Boarder Patrol, etc), those are notes on your 101. You should get a commendation for x-hundred hours of service or y-significant action in a mission area. Don't keep doing things wrong because others have done it before.
I agree with that.
A CAP Aerial Acheivement Award for say 50 hour no matter what mission type would be cool. Create a similar award for ground teams/mission base personel while we are at it.
Eliminate the border patrol (as proposed) and the CD ribbon.
I like the IC badge....however....should we create a badge for Mission base personnel below the IC level? Having one for the IC and not the others would be like having the GTL badge but not the GTM 3-1 badges.
Quote from: DNall on November 20, 2006, 09:54:48 PM
Well those are bad for starters, but I've given up having CAP design things that are worth a crap. I do believe there is a border patrol ribbon from WWII still authorized that would be best dusted off for this use. Then again, there should be no decoration for mission types (disaster, SaR, CN, HLS, Boarder Patrol, etc), those are notes on your 101. You should get a commendation for x-hundred hours of service or y-significant action in a mission area. Don't keep doing things wrong because others have done it before.
I dont think these are bad designs. I know there was alot of thought that went into them. When they are done we dont expect everyone to like them because we all have different tastes. These were designed based on heraldic reference and trying to honor our members. Yes there is a design that was used for the Southern Liaison patrol back in the 40's and 50's but the dates are closed. The design also included a cactus on the ribbon which cannot be done anymore. That is AF policy not to have "artwork" on the ribbons. The black stripe down the center takes its place. As far as the un-necessary aspects of the awards is concerned...even the active military has those. They also have inclusive dates and certain geographical and time restrictions. I dont see a "repeat" of any mistakes as far as they are concerned I am not sure what you mean by the last one.
To address an earlier post about why a cactus on the medal please read the description of what the entire thing represents.
The cactus was the symbol of the 1940's Liaison Patrol. So it's a move back to the roots of CAP.
I read the heraldry info, which very strongly appears to have been created AFTER the fact to justify someone's artwork. That's not how things are done, and by the way, that's not good use of established heraldric proceedures. If you're going to do something, do it the right way.
CAP's methodology on the awards we have is bad & contributory to the issues you state you're trying to address, yet the proposed solution here is to add on to the end with more in the same pattern. That's a bad idea. What we need is an overhaul of what we have.
We also need to focus on developing & executing the missions. You don't design a campaign medal for a awar that hasn't started yet. That comes a year into the process, and then only when the campaign is so significant & so dramatically changes participants' qualifications that those members MUST be distinguished from others.
Quote from: DNall on November 21, 2006, 10:22:45 PM
I read the heraldry info, which very strongly appears to have been created AFTER the fact to justify someone's artwork. That's not how things are done, and by the way, that's not good use of established heraldric proceedures. If you're going to do something, do it the right way.
CAP's methodology on the awards we have is bad & contributory to the issues you state you're trying to address, yet the proposed solution here is to add on to the end with more in the same pattern. That's a bad idea. What we need is an overhaul of what we have.
We also need to focus on developing & executing the missions. You don't design a campaign medal for a a war that hasn't started yet. That comes a year into the process, and then only when the campaign is so significant & so dramatically changes participants' qualifications that those members MUST be distinguished from others.
That assumption would be incorrect. The meaning and the design were both worked on at the same time. All of it has significance to what we have done and continue to do.
The designs are for missions that have existed for the most part since CAP has been around. The Distinguished Flying and Aerial Achievement do not cover specific "campaigns" , the Border Patrol award has been around since the 1940's but less than a handful of people are even eligible to wear it now. It is primarily a re-design and re-introduction. The AF has instituted the same idea as the Incident Commander we are following their lead.
The design and introduction of these does not hinder in anyway the development and execution of the missions of CAP. The intent of a Historian and the Historical Committee is part of the CAP mission. Historians are here to help preserve what happens in CAP in all respects. We do not segregate the accomplishments of a specific part of the misson as being more significant than the others. We support it through our work. My mission as a Historian is to preserve History and I do it very well.
This is a nice way for people to share ideas and talk with eachother about this kind of thing. If changes are needed or someone feels that a particular part of CAP needs to be overhauled and changed than they can seek out the proper channels for doing that. I always appreciate the feedback from fellow members even when I disagree with their feelings. That is the great thing about this group..........
I do like the idea of the Border Patrol medal and medals related to actions in flight. Even when I was a cadet I remember hearing that come up when I worked flightline on a few SAR Ex's. I always thought it was odd that we didnt have some sort of a CAP version of an Air medal or Distinguished Flying Cross.
They approve Seniors wearing the CAC ribbon from when they were cadets, but no Border Patrol medal. OK.
Thats because it is being incorporated into a broader "Homeland Security" ribbon rather than any problem with the idea of this particular service not being worthy of recognition.
It would just be so much better if the USAF would allow us to be eligible for AF awards already in place.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 26, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
It would just be so much better if the USAF would allow us to be eligible for AF awards already in place.
As discussed at considerable length elsewhere on these fora, CAP members
are eligible for a handful of USAF awards, including some awarded for achievement involving aerial flight. However, the approval process is a combination of being unclear, needs very high-level approval for each recommendation, and lacks precedence in many cases.
Since this thread has been "reborn", the cactus was the emblem of the Worl War II Liaison Patrol. So it has a historic basis for the design.
Major. Jim Shaw. ,
I see the IC badges were approved at the March 2007 National Board meeting - are they now just waiting for a change to CAPR 39-3 and for Vanguard to put them into production?
Looking forward to seeing them on uniforms sometime soon.
I was going to ask what qualifications the star and wreath on the IC badges will represent - but found it in the minutes of the March 2007 NB meeting. The star will be worn by Level 2 IC's, and the wreath by level 1 IC's.
Regarding the medals - which is which? The one with "BP" and a cactus is clearly the border patrol medal - but neither of the graphics that have been posted here indicate which of the other two is the Distinguished Flying Service and which is the Aerial Achievement. I guess the hexagonal medal must be the Distinguished Flying Service - is that right?
best,
I have attached the designs that were proposed for the new ribbons and medals. The Awards were turned down at the Board meeting in Washington in March. The IC badge and the DDR Badge had to get NEC approval before going any further. I was told by a Vanguard Rep that it usually takes 30 days to get a design mold and everything done before distribution. I will get a few myself for my collection.
I thought the DDR badge was approved at the winter NB?
Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 20, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
I know our southern border is of concern right now, but don't you think putting a cactus on the Border Patrol Medal just slightly limiting?
What happens when we need to start fending off our neighbors to the north? ;D
Oh, and on the whole photo posting bit. I didn't know that option was there, otherwise I would have suggested that as well. Photobucket is nice though.
What would you want, Mark... a moose?
Quote from: Pylon on March 26, 2007, 01:21:16 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on March 26, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
It would just be so much better if the USAF would allow us to be eligible for AF awards already in place.
As discussed at considerable length elsewhere on these fora, CAP members are eligible for a handful of USAF awards, including some awarded for achievement involving aerial flight. However, the approval process is a combination of being unclear, needs very high-level approval for each recommendation, and lacks precedence in many cases.
There is, however, preceence for the award of the Air Medal. The very first two Air Medals awarded after the medal was created were awarded to CAP pilots. Your point about the approval process is valid. On an Air Force Authorized Mission, are we an asset of First AF, Special Operations Command, or the Air University?
Going back to the incident of the emergency landing during the Katrina operations, who was CAP working for? As a general rule, the command to which one is attached when the incident occurs would be the approving authority. Your normal "Peacetime" chain can approve awards, but usually would do so only in exceptional cases, such as a lost recommendation.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on May 27, 2007, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: mlcurtis69 on November 20, 2006, 06:31:30 PM
I know our southern border is of concern right now, but don't you think putting a cactus on the Border Patrol Medal just slightly limiting?
What happens when we need to start fending off our neighbors to the north? ;D
Oh, and on the whole photo posting bit. I didn't know that option was there, otherwise I would have suggested that as well. Photobucket is nice though.
What would you want, Mark... a moose?
And a shark for Hawaiian border service and a polar bear for Alaska. I suppose we could come up with something for the territories as well.
Quote from: caphistorian on May 27, 2007, 04:41:49 PM
I have attached the designs that were proposed for the new ribbons and medals. The Awards were turned down at the Board meeting in Washington in March. The IC badge and the DDR Badge had to get NEC approval before going any further. I was told by a Vanguard Rep that it usually takes 30 days to get a design mold and everything done before distribution. I will get a few myself for my collection.
Why do our medals and specialty track badges always look like a paint shop explosion? :-[
The only items that look halfway decent are things like our Wings, the GT badge and the nurse/ig/emt insignia. AE- subdued, or straight silver.
And honestly: why our some of our medals shaped like a bolt?
Ive never seen anything except round used in the service.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 28, 2007, 09:39:13 PM
...
And honestly: why our some of our medals shaped like a bolt?
Ive never seen anything except round used in the service.
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/afmedals/blafcm.htm (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/afmedals/blafcm.htm)
Thank you, I stand corrected.
See also:
US Armed Forces Decorations and Department of Defense Decorations (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/Decorations/USArmedForcesDecorations.htm).
and
The Institute of Heraldry (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/)
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 28, 2007, 09:58:09 PM
Thank you, I stand corrected.
I'd like to know the significance of the shapes, though...I couldn't find anything on that...
Quote from: JC004 on May 28, 2007, 11:03:10 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 28, 2007, 09:58:09 PM
Thank you, I stand corrected.
I'd like to know the significance of the shapes, though...I couldn't find anything on that...
I think it is some Roman throwback. I will research...........
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 29, 2007, 01:32:16 AM
Quote from: JC004 on May 28, 2007, 11:03:10 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 28, 2007, 09:58:09 PM
Thank you, I stand corrected.
I'd like to know the significance of the shapes, though...I couldn't find anything on that...
I think it is some Roman throwback. I will research...........
Aren't you supposed to be packing for summer camp?!
Quote from: JC004 on May 29, 2007, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 29, 2007, 01:32:16 AM
Quote from: JC004 on May 28, 2007, 11:03:10 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 28, 2007, 09:58:09 PM
Thank you, I stand corrected.
I'd like to know the significance of the shapes, though...I couldn't find anything on that...
I think it is some Roman throwback. I will research...........
Aren't you supposed to be packing for summer camp?!
True......I will begin the medal research in August. Hope you can wait that long. However, feel free to take the train to Fort Knox, I will take you to the Patton Museum and we can see some real medals and play on some awesome tanks!
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 29, 2007, 01:36:21 AM
Quote from: JC004 on May 29, 2007, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 29, 2007, 01:32:16 AM
Quote from: JC004 on May 28, 2007, 11:03:10 PM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on May 28, 2007, 09:58:09 PM
Thank you, I stand corrected.
I'd like to know the significance of the shapes, though...I couldn't find anything on that...
I think it is some Roman throwback. I will research...........
Aren't you supposed to be packing for summer camp?!
True......I will begin the medal research in August. Hope you can wait that long. However, feel free to take the train to Fort Knox, I will take you to the Patton Museum and we can see some real medals and play on some awesome tanks!
I will take the bus up on the way back from AL, then TN. I need to square away some things in AL, first, however. :)
QuoteI know our southern border is of concern right now, but don't you think putting a cactus on the Border Patrol Medal just slightly limiting?
-------------------
What happens when we need to start fending off our neighbors to the north? ;D
-------------------
What would you want, Mark... a moose?
-------------------
And a shark for Hawaiian border service and a polar bear for Alaska. I suppose we could come up with something for the territories as well.
I thought it was nicely appropriate. Here's the Liaison badge if you've never seen one...
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/SLEEVE/liason2b.jpg)
No one has said it yet, but it is REALLY REALLY REALLY difficult to come up with new ribbon schemes. Althought they sometimes do, they are not supposed to match any of 100s of exsisting exsisting US ribbons.
- Ace
Ya....I don't like that. It strikes as an afront to Mexico. Watch out.....the ACLU may sue!
Quote from: alamrcn on May 29, 2007, 04:08:47 PMNo one has said it yet, but it is REALLY REALLY REALLY difficult to come up with new ribbon schemes. Althought they sometimes do, they are not supposed to match any of 100s of exsisting exsisting US ribbons.
- Ace
Actually, there are a few hundred ribbon designs that the DoD doesn't use that are available from Vanguard. PM me and I'll send you eight pages worth. Be advised though, they are about 9Mb each.
For some reason, when I click the "Browse" button, Internet Exploiter closes.
Quote from: arajca on May 29, 2007, 05:23:14 PM
Actually, there are a few hundred ribbon designs that the DoD doesn't use that are available from Vanguard. PM me and I'll send you eight pages worth. Be advised though, they are about 9Mb each.
LOL, the irony there being that Vanguard stocks plenty of insignia that means nothing to no one... heheheh.
Anyway, I wonder if maybe they are foreign service ribbons or something. Someone once said that the current IACE ribbon is also somekind of communist regime service award..... or maybe they were being facetious..... I'm not that up on my ribbon knowledge anymore. Hey, we haven't seen the "CAP ribbons that have appeared in movies or TV shows" thread lately!
- Ace
Quote from: alamrcn on June 05, 2007, 03:09:00 PM
Quote from: arajca on May 29, 2007, 05:23:14 PM
Actually, there are a few hundred ribbon designs that the DoD doesn't use that are available from Vanguard. PM me and I'll send you eight pages worth. Be advised though, they are about 9Mb each.
LOL, the irony there being that Vanguard stocks plenty of insignia that means nothing to no one... heheheh.
Anyway, I wonder if maybe they are foreign service ribbons or something. Someone once said that the current IACE ribbon is also somekind of communist regime service award..... or maybe they were being facetious..... I'm not that up on my ribbon knowledge anymore. Hey, we haven't seen the "CAP ribbons that have appeared in movies or TV shows" thread lately!
- Ace
It could be confused for the ribbon of the British Order of the Bath or the Hero of the Soviet Union medal ribbon. (This medal has no ribbon equivalent.)
The Cadet Recruiter Ribbon looks similar to the British Order of St Michael and St. George.
No kidding!? The forst two US Air medals went to CAP pilots? Thats awsome. I imagine it was the sub sinking guys?
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on June 05, 2007, 03:26:09 PM
the Hero of the Soviet Union medal
That's the one!
Yup, the first Air Medals of the war went to some old, fat guys! Here are the heros...
(http://www.caphistory.org/galleries/CAP%20categories/World%20War%20II/WWII%20Subchasers/images/CAP_119_136.jpg)
Not bad for some civilain volunteers! I'd say they were heros for sure. BTW, the guy shaking the Prez's hand was in CAP when the event occured, but received his medal while wearing his Navy uniform. The other dude behind him is obviously in a CAP uniform.
-Ace
The CAP air medals were for the rescue of a downed CAP pilot by an amphibian aircraft. When the amphibian landed in heavy seas, it was damaged too badly to take off again. The pilot water-taxied back to shore. Pretty significant achievement in the ocean piloting a light amphibian.
The Navy ensign was, indeed, a CAP pilot when the incident took place. Because of the critical need for pilots, the Navy lowered certain physical standards for pilot candidates, and he was able to join and go on to become a Naval Aviator. At the time the medal was awarded, he had not yet been awarded his wings, however.
Or...
Maybe it was a very young Tony Pineda, trying to push the TPU even then?!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 05, 2007, 10:38:16 PM
Or...
Maybe it was a very young Tony Pineda, trying to push the TPU even then?!
Who needs conspiracy theory sites when we have CAPTalk? :)
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 05, 2007, 10:38:16 PMMaybe it was a very young Tony Pineda, trying to push the TPU even then?!
Oh NO you di-ent!!
After reading all these posts I think we have to look at the bigger picture here. The foundation level problem is instead of trying to follow the Air Force guidance we keep inventing more badges to wear on our uniforms. I don't care if we have hundreds of "occupational" badges to wear, just limit them to two, and two only. We run around on Air Force bases looking like field marshalls wearing up to four differenct badges all over the place, plus all our aeronautical ratings as well, please, will someone tell the right people to STOP THE MADNESS...!! Look at any Air Force occupational style badges and the majority all have a basic design of rounded wings with some specific symbol indicating the occupation, i.e., security forces, maintenance, fuels, historian, administration...etc. Why can't we redesign all our badges and follow that common sense philosophy?
Richard J Levitt, LTC, CAP
NER/CT011 Liason Officer
or
Richard J Levitt, MSGT, USAFR
439th ASTS, NCOIC Skills Lab
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on June 07, 2007, 04:10:01 PM
Look at any Air Force occupational style badges and the majority all have a basic design of rounded wings with some specific symbol indicating the occupation, i.e., security forces, maintenance, fuels, historian, administration...etc. Why can't we redesign all our badges and follow that common sense philosophy?
That is common sense. We can't have any of
that, now can we?
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on June 07, 2007, 04:10:01 PM
After reading all these posts I think we have to look at the bigger picture here. The foundation level problem is instead of trying to follow the Air Force guidance we keep inventing more badges to wear on our uniforms. I don't care if we have hundreds of "occupational" badges to wear, just limit them to two, and two only. We run around on Air Force bases looking like field marshalls wearing up to four different badges all over the place, plus all our aeronautical ratings as well, please, will someone tell the right people to STOP THE MADNESS...!! Look at any Air Force occupational style badges and the majority all have a basic design of rounded wings with some specific symbol indicating the occupation, i.e., security forces, maintenance, fuels, historian, administration...etc. Why can't we redesign all our badges and follow that common sense philosophy?
Richard J Levitt, LTC, CAP
NER/CT011 Liason Officer
or
Richard J Levitt, MSGT, USAFR
439th ASTS, NCOIC Skills Lab
I believe a link was posted on here somewhere that said the AF did EXACLTY what CAP is doing with badges. They went from a plain blue uniform to one that has bling. It was a very good read.......anybody know where it is/was? I think CAP should standardize the development process and maybe streamline it alot! However, we need to make people feel good, and keep them in the organization to make the corporation money right?
I'm not sure who posted the link or where it was, but the article was in Air Force Magazine.
Do I understand that the AF is pro-bling now??
What changed??
I think CAP should propose some of these (http://www.chairforce.com/fun/humor/new-usaf-ribbons.htm) awards.
Most of which have absolutely no relevance within CAP. But then, neither do you now.
That's why I said some of the awards.
And are you implying that none of my achievements in the CAP cadet program have any relevance?
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 08:37:17 AM
That's why I said some of the awards.
And are you implying that none of my achievements in the CAP cadet program have any relevance?
Your current acheivements and conduct have negated any thing you have acheived in the past. ;)
Quote from: Former_C/LTC on June 07, 2007, 04:10:01 PM
After reading all these posts I think we have to look at the bigger picture here. The foundation level problem is instead of trying to follow the Air Force guidance we keep inventing more badges to wear on our uniforms. I don't care if we have hundreds of "occupational" badges to wear, just limit them to two, and two only. We run around on Air Force bases looking like field marshalls wearing up to four differenct badges all over the place, plus all our aeronautical ratings as well, please, will someone tell the right people to STOP THE MADNESS...!! Look at any Air Force occupational style badges and the majority all have a basic design of rounded wings with some specific symbol indicating the occupation, i.e., security forces, maintenance, fuels, historian, administration...etc. Why can't we redesign all our badges and follow that common sense philosophy?
Richard J Levitt, LTC, CAP
NER/CT011 Liason Officer
or
Richard J Levitt, MSGT, USAFR
439th ASTS, NCOIC Skills Lab
I wholely agree and have the solution... We already have the Ground Team badge that is a slightly different shape than the AF badges. Take our GT badge, and change out the inside of it with our different emblems we already have established in our colored specialty track badges (but in silver only, no color). Limit wear to two (or one with wings), and there's your answer.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 12:27:15 AM
I wholely agree and have the solution... We already have the Ground Team badge that is a slightly different shape than the AF badges. Take our GT badge, and change out the inside of it with our different emblems we already have established in our colored specialty track badges (but in silver only, no color). Limit wear to two (or one with wings), and there's your answer.
Been proposed before, several dozen times as a matter of fact. One major problem is that you'll end up with two different styles of PD badges. Which will be just as confusing.
Second, Vanguard will most likely not be interested in producing a badge that reasonably should be lower cost than the current ones.
Three, it would look a little too close to the Air Force. It's best to maintain some type of indicators that are worn and shaped in a substantially different manner than the Air Force. There really is nothing wrong with the way we do it now.
I won't count this as a fourth, but if specialty badges were worn above ribbons, I would never wear one. I have two military badges that I wear in that location. Both took work to earn. The way it is at present, I can wear three badges and show experience in the Army, Air Force and Civil Air Patrol.
Just something to point out to a few people: Putting CAP
and military signatures in your posts doesn't present you with any more credibility on this board. Nobody is going to look at those double signatures and say "Oh look, he's in the Air Force, he must know more than the rest of us." It's really transparent. There are people on this board that are both as well, but show the professionalism of not flaunting it. We figure out who knows the military and who doesn't.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2007, 07:29:53 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 08:37:17 AM
That's why I said some of the awards.
And are you implying that none of my achievements in the CAP cadet program have any relevance?
Your current acheivements and conduct have negated any thing you have acheived in the past. ;)
I will let those who have actually seen me in person be the judge of that!
How can you say such a thing when you don't even know me? That's really pathetic. People like you make me want to join the military even more. If it were not for a medical condition, I would be serving today.
I appreciate your service, Captain Harris. However, that's the only thing I appreciate about you.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 05:14:57 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 12:27:15 AM
I wholely agree and have the solution... We already have the Ground Team badge that is a slightly different shape than the AF badges. Take our GT badge, and change out the inside of it with our different emblems we already have established in our colored specialty track badges (but in silver only, no color). Limit wear to two (or one with wings), and there's your answer.
QuoteBeen proposed before, several dozen times as a matter of fact. One major problem is that you'll end up with two different styles of PD badges. Which will be just as confusing.
PD as in Professional Development? Then specify one exclusively.
QuoteSecond, Vanguard will most likely not be interested in producing a badge that reasonably should be lower cost than the current ones.
I have read enough to know about the $$$ involved in the two corporations, but if they don't like it, I'm certain we can find another vendor to produce our insignia.
QuoteThree, it would look a little too close to the Air Force. It's best to maintain some type of indicators that are worn and shaped in a substantially different manner than the Air Force. There really is nothing wrong with the way we do it now.
I don't see that as a bad thing. We are the AF Auxiliary even though things are moving more and more into a "corporation".
QuoteI won't count this as a fourth, but if specialty badges were worn above ribbons, I would never wear one. I have two military badges that I wear in that location. Both took work to earn. The way it is at present, I can wear three badges and show experience in the Army, Air Force and Civil Air Patrol.
Then I would suggest placement above the nametag as a third location for silver badges.
QuoteJust something to point out to a few people: Putting CAP and military signatures in your posts doesn't present you with any more credibility on this board. Nobody is going to look at those double signatures and say "Oh look, he's in the Air Force, he must know more than the rest of us." It's really transparent. There are people on this board that are both as well, but show the professionalism of not flaunting it. We figure out who knows the military and who doesn't.
Kinda like wearing military and CAP badges on the uniform... Maybe a better option for him would be to incorporate it all into one sig...
Well that didn't come out right...... My [ quoting ] needs a little work.....
Quotes aren't that hard. You have to keep in mind the HTML. Remember to close a quote afterward, and open up another one before the next line you're addressing. It's not hard, but it can take a little time to get used to.
The remark about double sigs was not directed at you, jaybird. It was a post above yours. I may get flamed for pointing it out, but double sigs annoy a few people. I just happened to be irritated enough at the moment to point it out.
As for shopping around for an insignia maker, there is contract with Vanguard to produce our insignia. We can't just walk away from that. Secondly, there is the issue that Vanguard is now, more or less, the sole approved source for our insignia. It would probably be a breach of contract to even contact another company.
As far as the badges themselves go, it's not really like we're wearing some garish 8 inch badge festooned with dozens of colors. Many times when I'm in blues, I've had people ask me if my Personnel badge was an Air Force one. On occasion, some Air Force personnel wear a badge on the pocket. It's not like there is no Air Force precedent.
It's one thing to look similar to the Air Force. It's another thing to emulate them. We go trying to look exactly like them, we lose our own identity, and noone in the military will take us seriously.
Many CAP personnel think we don't look like the Air Force. If you wear the Air Force blues, you do. I don't care what the 39-1 says, it is not an Air Force style uniform. It is the Air Force uniform, just with Civil Air Patrol distinctive insignia.
39-1 actually states this: "All uniform items must display a USAF certification label. Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label."
And this: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____.""
If it's only an Air Force style uniform, why would it require a USAF certification label? Anyway, enough of that rant. Civil Air Patrol should wear things at least a little bit differently. I'm not talking aobut drastic, but what we have works. It allows association with the AF, but still maintainsour own identity. Is your reason in CAP to be an AF clone? Or to be an Auxiliary member?
Quote from: 12211985 on July 05, 2007, 05:23:17 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2007, 07:29:53 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 08:37:17 AM
That's why I said some of the awards.
And are you implying that none of my achievements in the CAP cadet program have any relevance?
Your current achievements and conduct have negated any thing you have achieved in the past. ;)
I will let those who have actually seen me in person be the judge of that!
How can you say such a thing when you don't even know me? That's really pathetic. People like you make me want to join the military even more. If it were not for a medical condition, I would be serving today.
I appreciate your service, Captain Harris. However, that's the only thing I appreciate about you.
I am judging you on your conduct on this and other forums.....I do not need to actually meet you to know something about you.
Your past accomplishments with CAP do not give you any real right to make comments about our organization. You are an outsider who for one reason or another will not or cannot commit to joining CAP. A lot of the grief we give you would simply go away if you would join a CAP unit somewhere. scrape up the the $75+/- and submit your paper work. Then you can [censored] to your hearts content.
I have no idea what your "People like you make me want to join the military even more." comment means.
And finally "I appreciate your service, Captain Harris. However, that's the only thing I appreciate about you."...it's no skin of my nose if you appreciate me or not....I'm not hear to be appreciated.
Get with the program. You must earn the right to an opinion....in CAP the first step is to actually join the organization. Until you do that....just shut up!
Some observations on CAP badges and awards.
I don't have a source handy, but I read somewhere that U.S. heraldry states that civilian medals will be round, while military ones can be all kinds of shapes. That might explain why all of our older medals are round - since that's back when USAF actually had a hand in designing them.
CAP will always have issues with the amount of bling on our uniforms compared with USAF, for two reasons.
1. We don't pay folks, so we tend to go a bit overboard with the free compensation (mainly bling)
2. CAP folks can have several unique identities (for example, several squadron jobs plus some ES ratings). Most real military guys have just one identity - their current MOS. So we tend to accumulate more skills badges to cover all the different "hats" we wear.
Personally, I'd like to see CAP
1. Design all skill and PD badges to go above the pocket
2. Limit wear on service uniforms to 1 skill badge (pilot, obs, GT, EMT, etc) and 1 PD badge (CP, Log, ES, Personnel, etc.) representing one of the individual's currently assigned staff jobs.
That way, we'd keep the bling down AND perhaps motivivate folks to increase their training both in special skills AND in their current staff specialty.
Quote from: 12211985 on July 05, 2007, 05:23:17 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 04, 2007, 07:29:53 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 08:37:17 AM
That's why I said some of the awards.
And are you implying that none of my achievements in the CAP cadet program have any relevance?
Your current acheivements and conduct have negated any thing you have acheived in the past. ;)
I will let those who have actually seen me in person be the judge of that!
How can you say such a thing when you don't even know me? That's really pathetic. People like you make me want to join the military even more. If it were not for a medical condition, I would be serving today.
I appreciate your service, Captain Harris. However, that's the only thing I appreciate about you.
I was in the military, and I agree with Pat. You like to kvetch too much.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 06:15:30 AM
Quotes aren't that hard. You have to keep in mind the HTML. Remember to close a quote afterward, and open up another one before the next line you're addressing. It's not hard, but it can take a little time to get used to.
The remark about double sigs was not directed at you, jaybird. It was a post above yours. I may get flamed for pointing it out, but double sigs annoy a few people. I just happened to be irritated enough at the moment to point it out.
As for shopping around for an insignia maker, there is contract with Vanguard to produce our insignia. We can't just walk away from that. Secondly, there is the issue that Vanguard is now, more or less, the sole approved source for our insignia. It would probably be a breach of contract to even contact another company.
As far as the badges themselves go, it's not really like we're wearing some garish 8 inch badge festooned with dozens of colors. Many times when I'm in blues, I've had people ask me if my Personnel badge was an Air Force one. On occasion, some Air Force personnel wear a badge on the pocket. It's not like there is no Air Force precedent.
It's one thing to look similar to the Air Force. It's another thing to emulate them. We go trying to look exactly like them, we lose our own identity, and noone in the military will take us seriously.
Many CAP personnel think we don't look like the Air Force. If you wear the Air Force blues, you do. I don't care what the 39-1 says, it is not an Air Force style uniform. It is the Air Force uniform, just with Civil Air Patrol distinctive insignia.
39-1 actually states this: "All uniform items must display a USAF certification label. Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label."
And this: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____.""
If it's only an Air Force style uniform, why would it require a USAF certification label? Anyway, enough of that rant. Civil Air Patrol should wear things at least a little bit differently. I'm not talking aobut drastic, but what we have works. It allows association with the AF, but still maintainsour own identity. Is your reason in CAP to be an AF clone? Or to be an Auxiliary member?
Ehh, I guess I need a html class. I can't seem to break a quote up into separate boxes. Oh, well.
I know your sig comment wasn't directed at me, I was just commenting that he should incorporate whatever titles he wanted to project on us into one.
Well, I hate that we're stuck with Vanguard then. I haven't had any problems with them personally, and their embroidery is better quality than the hock (no offense), but I've seen the stories people here have posted. It's our insignia and our money (and their profit).
Good point on the uniforms and I see your point about leaving the badges alone. I like our blues and flight suits just fine, but I don't personally care for the smurf blue/white on the BDU's. I don't want something "tactical" or military, just something a little less clashing and a little more modern. It will be interesting to see if there is enough support to get the colors changed when we are able to switch over to the new uniform.
You know it's actually quite interesting to see how much debate there is in this place solely involving uniforms. It has to come from the frequent changes that our bosses make so it keeps everyone stirred up. Other organizations that I know of have two or three different uniforms that haven't changed in decades and that's just how it is. It's one way only, and never up for debate so there's not much reason in talking about it, which keeps the focus more on the job at hand... my two cents.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 09:13:43 PM
Ehh, I guess I need a html class. I can't seem to break a quote up into separate boxes. Oh, well.
Need to learn BBCode, not HTML. Similar but different. Tags and Nesting (for beginners) (http://captalk.net/index.php?action=help;page=post#tags)
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 06:15:30 AM
Quotes aren't that hard. You have to keep in mind the HTML. Remember to close a quote afterward, and open up another one before the next line you're addressing. It's not hard, but it can take a little time to get used to.
The remark about double sigs was not directed at you, jaybird. It was a post above yours. I may get flamed for pointing it out, but double sigs annoy a few people. I just happened to be irritated enough at the moment to point it out.
As for shopping around for an insignia maker, there is contract with Vanguard to produce our insignia. We can't just walk away from that. Secondly, there is the issue that Vanguard is now, more or less, the sole approved source for our insignia. It would probably be a breach of contract to even contact another company.
As far as the badges themselves go, it's not really like we're wearing some garish 8 inch badge festooned with dozens of colors. Many times when I'm in blues, I've had people ask me if my Personnel badge was an Air Force one. On occasion, some Air Force personnel wear a badge on the pocket. It's not like there is no Air Force precedent.
It's one thing to look similar to the Air Force. It's another thing to emulate them. We go trying to look exactly like them, we lose our own identity, and noone in the military will take us seriously.
Many CAP personnel think we don't look like the Air Force. If you wear the Air Force blues, you do. I don't care what the 39-1 says, it is not an Air Force style uniform. It is the Air Force uniform, just with Civil Air Patrol distinctive insignia.
39-1 actually states this: "All uniform items must display a USAF certification label. Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label."
And this: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____.""
If it's only an Air Force style uniform, why would it require a USAF certification label? Anyway, enough of that rant. Civil Air Patrol should wear things at least a little bit differently. I'm not talking aobut drastic, but what we have works. It allows association with the AF, but still maintainsour own identity. Is your reason in CAP to be an AF clone? Or to be an Auxiliary member?
Ehh, I guess I need a html class. I can't seem to break a quote up into separate boxes. Oh, well.
I know your sig comment wasn't directed at me, I was just commenting that he should incorporate whatever titles he wanted to project on us into one.
Well, I hate that we're stuck with Vanguard then. I haven't had any problems with them personally, and their embroidery is better quality than the hock (no offense), but I've seen the stories people here have posted. It's our insignia and our money (and their profit).
Good point on the uniforms and I see your point about leaving the badges alone. I like our blues and flight suits just fine, but I don't personally care for the smurf blue/white on the BDU's. I don't want something "tactical" or military, just something a little less clashing and a little more modern. It will be interesting to see if there is enough support to get the colors changed when we are able to switch over to the new uniform.
You know it's actually quite interesting to see how much debate there is in this place solely involving uniforms. It has to come from the frequent changes that our bosses make so it keeps everyone stirred up. Other organizations that I know of have two or three different uniforms that haven't changed in decades and that's just how it is. It's one way only, and never up for debate so there's not much reason in talking about it, which keeps the focus more on the job at hand... my two cents.
Its not just CAP. Uniforms are a huge topic on the USAF boards as well.
Quote from: MIKE on July 05, 2007, 09:34:40 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 09:13:43 PM
Ehh, I guess I need a html class. I can't seem to break a quote up into separate boxes. Oh, well.
Need to learn BBCode, not HTML. Similar but different. Tags and Nesting (for beginners) (http://captalk.net/index.php?action=help;page=post#tags)
Thank you, I'll start studying.
Quote from: LtCol White on July 05, 2007, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 05, 2007, 06:15:30 AM
Quotes aren't that hard. You have to keep in mind the HTML. Remember to close a quote afterward, and open up another one before the next line you're addressing. It's not hard, but it can take a little time to get used to.
The remark about double sigs was not directed at you, jaybird. It was a post above yours. I may get flamed for pointing it out, but double sigs annoy a few people. I just happened to be irritated enough at the moment to point it out.
As for shopping around for an insignia maker, there is contract with Vanguard to produce our insignia. We can't just walk away from that. Secondly, there is the issue that Vanguard is now, more or less, the sole approved source for our insignia. It would probably be a breach of contract to even contact another company.
As far as the badges themselves go, it's not really like we're wearing some garish 8 inch badge festooned with dozens of colors. Many times when I'm in blues, I've had people ask me if my Personnel badge was an Air Force one. On occasion, some Air Force personnel wear a badge on the pocket. It's not like there is no Air Force precedent.
It's one thing to look similar to the Air Force. It's another thing to emulate them. We go trying to look exactly like them, we lose our own identity, and noone in the military will take us seriously.
Many CAP personnel think we don't look like the Air Force. If you wear the Air Force blues, you do. I don't care what the 39-1 says, it is not an Air Force style uniform. It is the Air Force uniform, just with Civil Air Patrol distinctive insignia.
39-1 actually states this: "All uniform items must display a USAF certification label. Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label."
And this: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____.""
If it's only an Air Force style uniform, why would it require a USAF certification label? Anyway, enough of that rant. Civil Air Patrol should wear things at least a little bit differently. I'm not talking aobut drastic, but what we have works. It allows association with the AF, but still maintainsour own identity. Is your reason in CAP to be an AF clone? Or to be an Auxiliary member?
Ehh, I guess I need a html class. I can't seem to break a quote up into separate boxes. Oh, well.
I know your sig comment wasn't directed at me, I was just commenting that he should incorporate whatever titles he wanted to project on us into one.
Well, I hate that we're stuck with Vanguard then. I haven't had any problems with them personally, and their embroidery is better quality than the hock (no offense), but I've seen the stories people here have posted. It's our insignia and our money (and their profit).
Good point on the uniforms and I see your point about leaving the badges alone. I like our blues and flight suits just fine, but I don't personally care for the smurf blue/white on the BDU's. I don't want something "tactical" or military, just something a little less clashing and a little more modern. It will be interesting to see if there is enough support to get the colors changed when we are able to switch over to the new uniform.
You know it's actually quite interesting to see how much debate there is in this place solely involving uniforms. It has to come from the frequent changes that our bosses make so it keeps everyone stirred up. Other organizations that I know of have two or three different uniforms that haven't changed in decades and that's just how it is. It's one way only, and never up for debate so there's not much reason in talking about it, which keeps the focus more on the job at hand... my two cents.
Its not just CAP. Uniforms are a huge topic on the USAF boards as well.
Oh well, just as long as they're worn properly no matter what you've got.
I'd rather switch focus to the mission... We've been flooded out down here in the Austin area and I haven't heard a thing about any missions. I guess I need to get my CD application sent in and see if that's an area where all of the action is at...
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 10:17:11 PMOh well, just as long as they're worn properly no matter what you've got.
I'd rather switch focus to the mission... We've been flooded out down here in the Austin area and I haven't heard a thing about any missions. I guess I need to get my CD application sent in and see if that's an area where all of the action is at...
CD he wants to do. According to my source (he'll see this post), the turn around is well over six months on renewals, and longer for new folks, and the delay is at the customer end, not CAP.
Quote from: SarDragon on July 06, 2007, 06:43:27 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 05, 2007, 10:17:11 PMOh well, just as long as they're worn properly no matter what you've got.
I'd rather switch focus to the mission... We've been flooded out down here in the Austin area and I haven't heard a thing about any missions. I guess I need to get my CD application sent in and see if that's an area where all of the action is at...
CD he wants to do. According to my source (he'll see this post), the turn around is well over six months on renewals, and longer for new folks, and the delay is at the customer end, not CAP.
Yeah, I've kinda heard the same thing. I'm not in a hurry, and through some email correspondence I found out a law enforcement background and contacts should help a little.
This is second hand info, but several years ago, the folks without LE ties/background/contacts got their credentials faster than those with. Got any further intel, bosshawk?