Our wing is considering trying this method. Detailed search grids & other instructions could be text paged to aircraft in flight, even if radio comms could not reach the aircraft.
Even if the aircraft is within radio communications range, this adds an element of OPSEC to the mission, in that the aircraft can acknowledge by voice that they received message # (whatever).
It is likely a commercial paging system would be used, with text pager receivers (versus cellphone which currently are not authorized to be used (even passively) in an aircraft in flight by CAP.
Anyone on the group ever used this method?
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 14, 2010, 12:03:54 AM
Our wing is considering trying this method. Detailed search grids & other instructions could be text paged to aircraft in flight, even if radio comms could not reach the aircraft.
Even if the aircraft is within radio communications range, this adds an element of OPSEC to the mission, in that the aircraft can acknowledge by voice that they received message # (whatever).
It is likely a commercial paging system would be used, with text pager receivers (versus cellphone which currently are not authorized to be used (even passively) in an aircraft in flight by CAP.
Anyone on the group ever used this method?
RM
Almost sounds like your wing is trying to install ACARS into our little Cessnas. >:D
Quote from: vento on March 14, 2010, 12:25:57 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 14, 2010, 12:03:54 AM
Our wing is considering trying this method. Detailed search grids & other instructions could be text paged to aircraft in flight, even if radio comms could not reach the aircraft.
Even if the aircraft is within radio communications range, this adds an element of OPSEC to the mission, in that the aircraft can acknowledge by voice that they received message # (whatever).
It is likely a commercial paging system would be used, with text pager receivers (versus cellphone which currently are not authorized to be used (even passively) in an aircraft in flight by CAP.
Anyone on the group ever used this method?
RM
Almost sounds like your wing is trying to install ACARS into our little Cessnas. >:D
saw one of those mobile repeaters that can be installed on the aircraft, I thought it was something like what is mentioned here but man was it a monster (and heavy)
And those receivers has been tested to make sure they don't interfere with the equipment on the aircraft?
Who did the testing? Are the results available? Has the FAA and the FCC approved this equipment's use while in flight?
Quote from: PHall on March 14, 2010, 03:29:22 AM
And those receivers has been tested to make sure they don't interfere with the equipment on the aircraft?
Who did the testing? Are the results available? Has the FAA and the FCC approved this equipment's use while in flight?
Good questions. I have no idea. State PD Air Wing does it without any issues (although they can't fly IFR). I've heard some rumors though that a few pilots have mistakenly left their cellphones on when flying and apparently the plane flew ok. The only way they found out that they had left it on was their "Commander" (as in spouse), gave them a call to find out when their "mission" would be over 8)
RM
Knowing that people do things that skirt the law doesn't mean you write that circumvention into an ops plan.
Texting and cell phone in CAP aircraft use has been a pretty contentious issue in my wing because its governed by two seperately bodies
and people tend to use the most liberal interpretation to fit their needs.
To my understanding:
The FAA leaves it to the PIC to decide when or if cell phones and other electronics can be used in the airplane, but...
The FCC still red-line prohibits the use of cell phones and similar devices anytime the aircraft are in the air.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 14, 2010, 11:29:18 PM
Knowing that people do things that skirt the law doesn't mean you write that circumvention into an ops plan.
Texting and cell phone in CAP aircraft use has been a pretty contentious issue in my wing because its governed by two seperately bodies
and people tend to use the most liberal interpretation to fit their needs.
To my understanding:
The FAA leaves it to the PIC to decide when or if cell phones and other electronics can be used in the airplane, but...
The FCC still red-line prohibits the use of cell phones and similar devices anytime the aircraft are in the air.
The reason you can't use a cell phone in the air is because you can hit dozens if not hundreds of cells with it. It's a good rule from that standpoint. I think what the OP is looking for is a passive device no different from an FM radio receiver. That shouldn't cause any issues at all.
This may already exist in some manner but I'm suprised there isn't an airborne mode included on cell phones that can be selected that automatically limits access of the phone to dedicated towers strictly for airborne use.
I'm not an electrical enginner so I don't know the particulars of how it would or wouldn't work.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 14, 2010, 11:56:10 PMThe reason you can't use a cell phone in the air is because you can hit dozens if not hundreds of cells with it. It's a good rule from that standpoint.
Ten years ago that would have been true. Now cell phones are desgned to pair with the tower that has the strongest signal, and with the carrier provider towers having precedence simply for the fact that you can hit five different towers sitting on the ground. Once the handshaking is established, the cell ignores all the other towers, and the towers ignore the phone unless the phone hands off to another one for better signal.
There are cellphone setups for installation into aircraft these days, Aircell being the most common and the first to make the technology work well. They're branching into cellular broadband internet, and there's a few airlines that use them.
Downside for us would the costs. I don't know what they are, but I imagine they're spendy.
I believe you would still need FAA approval (for pagers, aircells, or whatever). I read an article on the FAA site (don't have the link handy though) that stated that they are allowing airlines (since we have an airline callsign (CAPFLIGHT), does that qualify us?) to allow or disallow mobile devices on their flight, but you have to go through a certification process for each model you want to allow to ensure that it doesn't interfere with avionics or communication.
So, if you could get CAP national to approve as CAPFLIGHT air (if that's even possible) the use of mobile devices in flight, and pay to have that one model of pager certified, this could work.
CAPFLIGHT as a CAP call sign is dead. It's now just CAP (pronounced as one word, like the hat).
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 16, 2010, 03:23:06 PM
I believe you would still need FAA approval (for pagers, aircells, or whatever). I read an article on the FAA site (don't have the link handy though) that stated that they are allowing airlines (since we have an airline callsign (CAPFLIGHT), does that qualify us?) to allow or disallow mobile devices on their flight, but you have to go through a certification process for each model you want to allow to ensure that it doesn't interfere with avionics or communication.
So, if you could get CAP national to approve as CAPFLIGHT air (if that's even possible) the use of mobile devices in flight, and pay to have that one model of pager certified, this could work.
A call sign does not an Airline make....
Here's what the FCC says about cell phone use on aircraft:
www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes
Quote from: FW on March 16, 2010, 10:40:41 PM
Here's what the FCC says about cell phone use on aircraft:
www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes
That link gave me a 404 page, all I could find was this in a quick google search: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html)
Quote from: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html
Federal Communications Commission (FCC) rules prohibit the use of cellular phones using the 800 MHz frequency and other wireless devices on airborne aircraft. This ban was put in place because of potential interference to wireless networks on the ground.
In March 2007, the FCC terminated a proceeding that it began in late 2004 to consider potentially lifting this ban. The FCC determined that the technical information provided by interested parties in response to the proposal was insufficient to determine whether in-flight use of wireless devices on aircraft could cause harmful interference to wireless networks on the ground. Therefore, it decided at this time to make no changes in the rules prohibiting in-flight use of such devices.
In addition to the FCC's rules, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) prohibits in-flight use of wireless devices because of potential interference to the aircraft's navigation and communication systems. For this same reason the FAA also regulates the use of all portable electronic devices (PEDs), such as iPods and portable DVD players, during flight.
The FCC has approved rules that allow in-flight voice and data services, including broadband services using dedicated air-to-ground frequencies that were previously used for seat-back telephone service. Air-to-ground service providers are in the process of rolling out new in-flight services, such as high-speed Internet access for laptop computers. Because these services will operate in frequencies that are dedicated to air-to-ground communications and are separate from those used for wireless services on the ground, they do not pose an interference risk to wireless networks on the ground. Providers of in-flight wireless broadband and other communications services using the air-to-ground frequencies must coordinate with airlines and comply with any FAA rules in order to offer such services.
Most
smartphones such as the Android, Windows Mobile, and Blackberry-based devices operate in a Quad-band which includes the 800Mhz frequencies.
Rumor has it that the underpowered, overpriced, closed source, feature handcuffed, "Ode to Steve" known as the iPhone also operates
in that bandwidth, however no one can confirm this because an iPhone has never maintained a connection to AT&T long enough for anyone to check. >:D
If it is in the 800/900 MHz (formerly known as the analog cellular frequency space), you can't use it in the air under the FCC rules.
FAA rules prohibit using devices that emit RF (other than shavers, pacemakers, the other usual stuff you see at the back of the airline magazine) when the aircraft is on an IFR flight plan OR if it is operated by an air carrier (and not in their ops specs, etc.). For part 91, you fall under the "permission of the operator" category if it is VFR.
Most of the new cell phones do use the old analog frequencies (which still have the airborne restrictions attached) - and don't provide any way to turn them off - so they can't be used in the air without violating the FCC rules.
Of course, if you have an emergency and need to use it to talk to ATC or summon the fire department to your upcoming crash site, that's a different story. But you can't legally use your iPhone in a plane to order a pizza, email photos back to mission base, or use Urban Spoon to find a good restaurant to land at.