The new CAPR 60-3 has removed all references to qualifications for ES specialities, instead deferring to the SQTR, which are no longer maintained but rather referred further to Ops Quals under eServices.
We already know that Incident Commander (IC) requires you be a qualified Operations Section Chief (OSC), and OSC requires you be a qualified Planning Section Chief. Under the previous regulation, you needed to either be an Air Operations Branch Director (AOBD), or Ground Branch Director (GBD); and if you were qualifying under AOBD you needed a Ground Team Member (GTM) qualification but it need not be current, and if under GBD you needed a Mission Scanner (MS) qualification but need not be current.
However, now it simply says "Planning Section Chief - Prerequisites - No. of Required Tasks: 1", with two options listed...AOBD or GBD. So, the question is it possible to become a PSC, and thus an OSC, and thus an IC without having a minimal amount of experience in Ground Ops and Air Ops?
You would be suprised...in some places a school principal doesn't even ever have been in a classroom. Some were in a classroom as little as 3 years. You would think that the requirement would be more like 5 to 10 years.
Again, if you examine the nature of your premise. You are working from the assumption that an IC needs to have "been there, done that" in ES. Some people would seem to believe otherwise.
Quote from: N Harmon on March 08, 2010, 12:49:29 AMHowever, now it simply says "Planning Section Chief - Prerequisites - No. of Required Tasks: 1", with two options listed...AOBD or GBD.
Interesting. My conspiracy theory side wants to say that the pilots got mad that they were being required to do something on the ground in order to move up.
However, the more likely situation is that this was just an oversight since the need to have experience on the other side has never been listed on the SQTR like it should have been.
I just walked the wire on this. You have a faulty assumption that the eServiices Ops Qual SQTR is the definitive source for training. The definitive source is actually the task guide - which includes the SQTRs. They have had additional requirements added to them (NIMS courses, Aircraft Handling, etc) by later directives and eServices Ops Quals has tried to incorporate the additional requirements.
QuoteCAPR 60-3 17 AUGUST 2009
2-3. Specialty Rating Requirements and Performance Standards. For each specialty rating, SQTRs have been developed to train and qualify members in stages. The most current versions of the task guides for all specialties are found on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.
The Mission Base Task Guide, 11 Apr 2005, is still the definitive guide for training mission base personnel. The PSC SQTR states:
Quote(Personnel applying based on qualification as an Air Operations Branch
Director requirement must have been qualified as a ground team or Urban DF
team member at one time. Personnel applying based on qualification as a
Ground Branch Director must also have been qualified as a mission scanner
at one time.)
Will there be someone who gets signed off as a PSC because the trainer has never opened a copy of the MBTG and only "trains" from the Ops Quals SQTR? The odds are about 100% on that happening.
That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification!
60-3 goes on further to say
Para 2-3 (f) IC Any Level see note 4
Goes on to say "new curriculum in development" "proper testing and fielding of new curricula to avoid delaying release of this reg........."
New training programs? Really? secret training ops? Fireline IC and Incident IC taskbooks are being and have been developed by FEMA and NWCG so how hard is to to develop (unless it becomes scenario based or sand table type training) this stuff should not be difficult by any means if NHQ has TRUE curriculum developed by the AF types or educators that can seriously put a truly standardized training plan together... Hopefully it will be broader development than just NESA or Hawk Mtn
CAP is not ready to implement all these specialties at this time? When have they been ready. PLEASE DO NOT make 60-3 a JOKE like 39-1, because that will really make CAP training look lame
Probably an ICL in the future,huh?
QuoteI just walked the wire on this. You have a faulty assumption that the eServiices Ops Qual SQTR is the definitive source for training.
But you do agree that the online version is a problem in that it doesn't actually incorporate all the requirements as it properly should?
The task guides are horribly out of date and if anything the OPSQUALS versions are the most current and accurate version notwithstanding the PSC issue that started this thread.
Of course it is! There is no single document that accurately lists the requirements for an achievement. I would prefer to have the "correct" SQTR in eServices Ops Quals.
your looking at an old SQTR...
Quote from: CommGeek on March 08, 2010, 09:11:05 PM
your looking at an old SQTR...
The SQTRs that are published as part of the ES curriculum are the authority, not the online checkboxes. As mentioned those are dated 2005.
That's not the issue.
The problem is that the On-line SQTR is the one people are going to actually use and with out the GTM3 or MO (MS?) requirment in the OSC SQRT there is the possiblity of someone who is not reading the paper SQRTs to get approved with out the proper qualifications.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2010, 09:15:26 PM
Quote from: CommGeek on March 08, 2010, 09:11:05 PM
your looking at an old SQTR...
The SQTRs that are published as part of the ES curriculum are the authority, not the online checkboxes. As mentioned those are dated 2005.
Except that they are not complete and are not the sole authority...Unless you are arguing that the NIMS requirements are "illegal" since they aren't in the SQTRs.
Actually, on the new SQTRs that I approved last week, the required NIMS courses were on there.
*Edit* Oops, I didn't fully read the string of posts. Feel free to tell me "You're out of your element Donnie".
Quote from: edmo1 on March 08, 2010, 10:54:26 PM
Actually, on the new SQTRs that I approved last week, the required NIMS courses were on there.
*Edit* Oops, I didn't fully read the string of posts. Feel free to tell me "You're out of your element Donnie".
No...just shooting from the hip like the rest of us! ;D
The 'SQRT worksheet' in OPS Quals is the one that counts. Not the old paper ones!
Now you have to be a mission pilot to be an IC!
Quote from: CommGeek on March 08, 2010, 11:31:57 PM
The 'SQRT worksheet' in OPS Quals is the one that counts. Not the old paper ones!
Now you have to be a mission pilot to be an IC!
Nope.
You need OSC to be an IC
You need PSC to be an OSC
You need AOBD or GBD to be PSC
You need MO
OR MP to be an AOBD
You need GTL to be a GBD.
Pilot is NOT required.
Quote from: CommGeek on March 08, 2010, 11:31:57 PM
The 'SQRT worksheet' in OPS Quals is the one that counts. Not the old paper ones!
Now you have to be a mission pilot to be an IC!
And your source for all this is???
Quote from: Short Field on March 09, 2010, 12:26:22 AM
Quote from: CommGeek on March 08, 2010, 11:31:57 PM
The 'SQRT worksheet' in OPS Quals is the one that counts. Not the old paper ones!
Now you have to be a mission pilot to be an IC!
And your source for all this is???
Lordmonar already covered the not needing to be a pilot. In INWG if you do not have every required item in the online SQTRs you do not get the qual. Period, end of story. "The Paperwork Method" is no longer a valid means of recording the achievement. By paperwork method I mean the old single checkbox method. You had to have each item filled out and two valid mission numbers or same number two dates for sorties.
Quote from: davidsinn on March 09, 2010, 01:25:30 AM
In INWG if you do not have every required item in the online SQTRs you do not get the qual. Period, end of story. "The Paperwork Method" is no longer a valid means of recording the achievement. By paperwork method I mean the old single checkbox method. You had to have each item filled out and two valid mission numbers or same number two dates for sorties.
I (can speak for wing or other units) require the online SQTR to be completed as well. However, if there are requirements that that are not listed on the SQTR and are not completed (and this is mainly for PSC), they don't get the SQTR submitted for approval. I trust that is what you are saying, and not that INWG has decided the PSC does not need to be minimally qualified (at one time) as both a GTM3/UDF and MS.