Hi all,
My squadron just gained a new SM (parent of a cadet) who will be taking over our Finance Officer position, and is qualified to receive 1st Lt. We know that promotions to 1st Lt are approved by the Squadron Commander, we just can't figure out how to get that in the system. Under the app specific to promotions, it will only allow our commander to input the promotion to the next rank.
Any info would be great. Thank you!
Special appointment promotions must be accomplished manually on a Form 2. Once approved by the promoting authority, the paperwork and supporting documentation must be faxed or emailed under the commander's signature block. The promotions module in eServices is for duty performance promotions only.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 05, 2010, 07:44:00 AM
Special appointment promotions must be accomplished manually on a Form 2. Once approved by the promoting authority, the paperwork and supporting documentation must be faxed or emailed under the commander's signature block. The promotions module in eServices is for duty performance promotions only.
Great! Thank you, sir!
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on March 05, 2010, 07:07:49 AM
Hi all,
My squadron just gained a new SM (parent of a cadet) who will be taking over our Finance Officer position, and is qualified to receive 1st Lt. We know that promotions to 1st Lt are approved by the Squadron Commander, we just can't figure out how to get that in the system. Under the app specific to promotions, it will only allow our commander to input the promotion to the next rank.
Any info would be great. Thank you!
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 05, 2010, 07:44:00 AM
Special appointment promotions must be accomplished manually on a Form 2. Once approved by the promoting authority, the paperwork and supporting documentation must be faxed or emailed under the commander's signature block. The promotions module in eServices is for duty performance promotions only.
Please check the appropriate regulation or manual before asking on CAPTALK.
How about not discouraging the use of Captalk?? If you don't want to respond, DON'T.. In the meanwhile let others use this site as they desire.. You don't have to read the posts and you don't have to respond.. Also, one could suggest using the Reg's without the air of authority.. This cadet was seeking information that was offered by others. It did not require a response from you. Perhaps if everyone used the Reg's we wouldn't need Captalk except to disparage National and the program..Right??
Cadet Williams ask a good question and Senior Member advanced promotions are complicated. However, I gotta ask (and please don't think I am being disrespectful of Cadet Williams) but why is a cadet looking into a Senior Member promotion?
Special appointment and missions skills promotions must be approved by the Group CC (if you have Groups) and the Wing CC.
PhoenixCadet is not Cadet Williams. Cadet Williams now goes under the handle 'Hooah'.
I can see why a great many folks just take CAPTalk with a grain of salt.
Not everyone knows the regs inside and out, not everyone knows what parts are in what area, and what areas have things you'd never think to look there.
Do you just throw the book at people at meetings?
If you don't like the post, don't read it. Shut the window, move on. But everytime someone asks something on here it seems to turn into 72 moderators in a contest to see which one can shoot whoever down first, with the "look it up, let me google that for you, use the search function".
Not everyone thinks the same. Searching for stuff discussed based on thoughts is not all that fruitful in results sometimes.
now, FWIW, PhoenixCadet .. is fairly close to going Senior member, and was fairly instrumental in getting his current unit established.
Looks can be deceiving, stop judging every book by it's cover, and every participant by their screen name.
The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either.
Quote from: a2capt on March 05, 2010, 04:39:14 PM
I can see why a great many folks just take CAPTalk with a grain of salt.
Not everyone knows the regs inside and out, not everyone knows what parts are in what area, and what areas have things you'd never think to look there.
Do you just throw the book at people at meetings?
If you don't like the post, don't read it. Shut the window, move on. But everytime someone asks something on here it seems to turn into 72 moderators in a contest to see which one can shoot whoever down first, with the "look it up, let me google that for you, use the search function".
Not everyone thinks the same. Searching for stuff discussed based on thoughts is not all that fruitful in results sometimes.
now, FWIW, PhoenixCadet .. is fairly close to going Senior member, and was fairly instrumental in getting his current unit established.
Looks can be deceiving, stop judging every book by it's cover, and every participant by their screen name.
The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either.
I believe that I acknowledged that he asked a very good question and that the regs are very complicated (in my opinion). I tried to ask my question in as respectful way that I could, however, evidently I failed. I also stand corrected on Mr. Williams status in CAP. I assumed something from his ID that I shouldn't have. If I offended I apologize.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 05, 2010, 03:23:31 PM
Special appointment and missions skills promotions must be approved by the Group CC (if you have Groups) and the Wing CC.
Not quite true for mission related skills promotions. Squadron commander is the approval authority for 2d Lt and 1st Lt promotions for mission related skills.
Quote from: CAPR 35-5First and Second Lieutenant. The squadron commander is the promoting authority for all members assigned to his/her unit for all promotions except professional appointment promotions. The wing commander is the approving authority for all professional appointment promotions.
Edit: see Lord's below...
Quote from: bte on March 05, 2010, 05:33:34 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 05, 2010, 03:23:31 PM
Special appointment and missions skills promotions must be approved by the Group CC (if you have Groups) and the Wing CC.
Not quite true for mission related skills promotions. Squadron commander is the approval authority for 2d Lt and 1st Lt promotions for mission related skills.
Quote from: CAPR 35-5First and Second Lieutenant. The squadron commander is the promoting authority for all members assigned to his/her unit for all promotions except professional appointment promotions. The wing commander is the approving authority for all professional appointment promotions.
A finance officer promotion is a "professional appointment and promotion" (Section E) and therefor must go to wing...even for a lowly 2d Lt.
So, Are you saying that some Wings and Regions are in violation of CAP Reg's?? Now isn't that special.. National gives authority to Squadron Commanders and Regions and Wings take it away?? Very Interesting to say the least.. So we can't rely on the Reg's and therefore we shouldn't be so quick to direct everyone to the Reg's.. Correctomundo??
Quote from: lordmonar on March 05, 2010, 05:46:16 PM
Quote from: bte on March 05, 2010, 05:33:34 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 05, 2010, 03:23:31 PM
Special appointment and missions skills promotions must be approved by the Group CC (if you have Groups) and the Wing CC.
Not quite true for mission related skills promotions. Squadron commander is the approval authority for 2d Lt and 1st Lt promotions for mission related skills.
Quote from: CAPR 35-5First and Second Lieutenant. The squadron commander is the promoting authority for all members assigned to his/her unit for all promotions except professional appointment promotions. The wing commander is the approving authority for all professional appointment promotions.
A finance officer promotion is a "professional appointment and promotion" (Section E) and therefor must go to wing...even for a lowly 2d Lt.
I know. I was referring to the part about mission related skills only.
In this case there is no conflict with regs.
Quote from: AirAux on March 05, 2010, 05:48:29 PM
So, Are you saying that some Wings and Regions are in violation of CAP Reg's?? Now isn't that special.. National gives authority to Squadron Commanders and Regions and Wings take it away?? Very Interesting to say the least.. So we can't rely on the Reg's and therefore we shouldn't be so quick to direct everyone to the Reg's.. Correctomundo??
What are you talking about?
Quote from: a2capt on March 05, 2010, 04:39:14 PM
I can see why a great many folks just take CAPTalk with a grain of salt.
Not everyone knows the regs inside and out, not everyone knows what parts are in what area, and what areas have things you'd never think to look there.
Do you just throw the book at people at meetings?
If you don't like the post, don't read it. Shut the window, move on. But everytime someone asks something on here it seems to turn into 72 moderators in a contest to see which one can shoot whoever down first, with the "look it up, let me google that for you, use the search function". The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either
Not everyone thinks the same. Searching for stuff discussed based on thoughts is not all that fruitful in results sometimes.
now, FWIW, PhoenixCadet .. is fairly close to going Senior member, and was fairly instrumental in getting his current unit established.
Looks can be deceiving, stop judging every book by it's cover, and every participant by their screen name.
The reason I ask that people look at the regulation, is so that they can learn something. It's not as if the regs aren't available through the CAP website and the individual who asked could have learned how all promotions are done, what procedures to take, and even the different types of promotion available.
"
The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either." This particular reg (CAPR35-5) actually has on it's title "Senior Member Promotions, and is broken down by duty Performance, Professional, Mission Qualifications, and Exceptional promotions. Sounds simple to me.
I was talking about the fact that Eclipse stated that some Wings and Regions have to approve certain promotions including "mission related skills" when in fact the Reg's leave that to the commander.. Eclipse has now modified or edited his post so it is no more..
Quote from: Cecil DP on March 05, 2010, 06:12:56 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 05, 2010, 04:39:14 PM
I can see why a great many folks just take CAPTalk with a grain of salt.
Not everyone knows the regs inside and out, not everyone knows what parts are in what area, and what areas have things you'd never think to look there.
Do you just throw the book at people at meetings?
If you don't like the post, don't read it. Shut the window, move on. But everytime someone asks something on here it seems to turn into 72 moderators in a contest to see which one can shoot whoever down first, with the "look it up, let me google that for you, use the search function". The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either
Not everyone thinks the same. Searching for stuff discussed based on thoughts is not all that fruitful in results sometimes.
now, FWIW, PhoenixCadet .. is fairly close to going Senior member, and was fairly instrumental in getting his current unit established.
Looks can be deceiving, stop judging every book by it's cover, and every participant by their screen name.
The reason I ask that people look at the regulation, is so that they can learn something. It's not as if the regs aren't available through the CAP website and the individual who asked could have learned how all promotions are done, what procedures to take, and even the different types of promotion available.
"The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either." This particular reg (CAPR35-5) actually has on it's title "Senior Member Promotions, and is broken down by duty Performance, Professional, Mission Qualifications, and Exceptional promotions. Sounds simple to me.
I admit to probably not being the brightest bulb in pack, but I'm not dumb as a rock either. It took me several readings of 35-5 before it began to make sense to me.
Well...higher headquarters can always make a regulation more restictive unless the regulations specifically otherwise. So a Wing CC could say he is the promotion authroity for everyone in his wing if he wanted to and it is not involation of the regulation.
It should be spelled out in a supplement approved by the next higher level.....but not always.
Now before you all flame me to hell and back.
I don't think the wing should be doing it.....but there you go.
Consider yourself unflamed.. As we are in total agreement..
Quote from: lordmonar on March 05, 2010, 06:30:41 PM
Well...higher headquarters can always make a regulation more restictive unless the regulations specifically otherwise. So a Wing CC could say he is the promotion authroity for everyone in his wing if he wanted to and it is not involation of the regulation.
It should be spelled out in a supplement approved by the next higher level.....but not always.
Now before you all flame me to hell and back.
I don't think the wing should be doing it.....but there you go.
In general this would be true. But in this particular case the regulation states otherwise:
Quote1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.
Quote from: bte on March 05, 2010, 06:36:09 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 05, 2010, 06:30:41 PM
Well...higher headquarters can always make a regulation more restictive unless the regulations specifically otherwise. So a Wing CC could say he is the promotion authroity for everyone in his wing if he wanted to and it is not involation of the regulation.
It should be spelled out in a supplement approved by the next higher level.....but not always.
Now before you all flame me to hell and back.
I don't think the wing should be doing it.....but there you go.
In general this would be true. But in this particular case the regulation states otherwise:
Quote1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.
Well now we get into interpetation......retaining approval athority for all special promotions at a particular level may not be intermped as change the othe "basic" policies, critera, porecedure and practices.
Again...I don't agree with it....but I can see why a wing commander may think that all special promtions need to go through him because of quality issues or abuse of the basic principles.
Such as allowing someone to be promoted to 1st Lt under the finance officer rules....when the individlual is not serving as a finance officer.
Quote from: AirAux on March 05, 2010, 06:16:20 PM
I was talking about the fact that Eclipse stated that some Wings and Regions have to approve certain promotions including "mission related skills" when in fact the Reg's leave that to the commander.. Eclipse has now modified or edited his post so it is no more..
My bad - sorry, however that is true.
Quote from: DogCollar on March 05, 2010, 05:24:06 PM
Quote from: a2capt on March 05, 2010, 04:39:14 PM
I can see why a great many folks just take CAPTalk with a grain of salt.
Not everyone knows the regs inside and out, not everyone knows what parts are in what area, and what areas have things you'd never think to look there.
Do you just throw the book at people at meetings?
If you don't like the post, don't read it. Shut the window, move on. But everytime someone asks something on here it seems to turn into 72 moderators in a contest to see which one can shoot whoever down first, with the "look it up, let me google that for you, use the search function".
Not everyone thinks the same. Searching for stuff discussed based on thoughts is not all that fruitful in results sometimes.
now, FWIW, PhoenixCadet .. is fairly close to going Senior member, and was fairly instrumental in getting his current unit established.
Looks can be deceiving, stop judging every book by it's cover, and every participant by their screen name.
The cover of each CAP Reg is not always fully indicative of what exactly is covered in that particular volume, and the index isn't always the most complete guide either.
I believe that I acknowledged that he asked a very good question and that the regs are very complicated (in my opinion). I tried to ask my question in as respectful way that I could, however, evidently I failed. I also stand corrected on Mr. Williams status in CAP. I assumed something from his ID that I shouldn't have. If I offended I apologize.
I don't think a2capt's rant was directed specifically at you. I know him personally, and we had a chat a w/e or two about just exactly this. IMHO, your post was just fine.
Not all Cadet's experiences involve marching around in boxes for their time in CAP. My past few years was spent (as a2capt mentioned) organizaing and coordinating the standing up of a new squadron at my high school. We've had our charter for just a bit over a year, and ALL of our members (including senior members) were brand new. (When we chartered, we only had 2.) Even our commander is still learning the ropes, a year through his term. Given that I've got almost 6 years in the program (more than all of our senior members combined), I've been taking the liberty and helping get stuff done on the senior member side, as well.
Aside from the help we received during the chartering process and a few small sessions with group staff officers, that's all the help we received. Period. It's one thing to take command of a new organization and get it up and running, but it's an entirely new thing when you're new to the organization yourself (and aren't receiving the amount of help adequate to getting a new squadron started). And I have to say, our senior members are doing one hell of a job. We have some truly outstanding people in our squadron.
To those who answered my question, thank you. I will be forwarding this info on ASAP.
I am not a supporter of merely "throwing the regulations" at newbies, telling them to follow it without guidance, then brow beating them for misinterpreting the regulation. That was done to me several times when I started out. I was told "its all in the regs," then I followed the regs to the letter...then was practically dressed down by the same person who made the insipid statment to begin with.
Read this, and read this well, if you are a CAP Officer or Cadet with active meaningful experience you offer guidance to new people inspite of there being "another thread" on the subject or "its in the regs," or you are obliged to shut yourself off.
Regs can be interpreted to meaning anything if a person is cleaver enough to make it work or make sense. Some times it is purposeful; sometimes it is accidental or based on an ignorance of CAP culture.
Everyone on here seems to be of the collective idea that we want to inprove CAP, however, when people come for help they are "dogpiled" and patronized. That is unbecoming in my opinion and needs to be stopped.
Right on, Sparky..
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on March 05, 2010, 09:30:03 PM
(When we chartered, we only had 2.) Even our commander is still learning the ropes, a year through his term. Given that I've got almost 6 years in the program (more than all of our senior members combined), I've been taking the liberty and helping get stuff done on the senior member side, as well.
You mean you started with two members? I do not believe a charter can be granted until a certain minimum number of members are "members".
Quote from: Spike on March 08, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on March 05, 2010, 09:30:03 PM
(When we chartered, we only had 2.) Even our commander is still learning the ropes, a year through his term. Given that I've got almost 6 years in the program (more than all of our senior members combined), I've been taking the liberty and helping get stuff done on the senior member side, as well.
You mean you started with two members? I do not believe a charter can be granted until a certain minimum number of members are "members".
What you mean is....the regulations say that you need a certain amount of Seniors and Cadets before you can be chartered......but in practice I have seen National ignore this requirment.
The unit did in fact get chartered with 2 senior members. As you say there, probably got ignored.
It was fixed shortly there after by the virtue of another joining right about the time an SUI was scheduled shortly after the unit creation, because the Group scheduled all the units in order to get it's own done, and it was realized that somehow it did in fact get chartered with two, vs. the required three and thus became a non-issue at the inspection time.
Quote from: Spike on March 08, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
You mean you started with two members? I do not believe a charter can be granted until a certain minimum number of members are "members".
We had two active SMs (brand new), and 10 cadets (myself, already in CAP, included). There was one more (the son of our, then, group commander) who was inactive due to having been at the USAFA. He was transferred to the roster just for numbers' sake. Now, we're up to six active officers.