I know some of you type in "Civil Air Patrol" occasionally on eBay.
Have you seen the CAP items being sold by "freedomfifty2k" in the last two months?
http://myworld.ebay.com/freedomfifty2k/
The seller's name is Robert "Bob" Lafond, and he's in the Philippines. He's been making and selling "one-off" replicas and fake Civil Air Patrol patches and cloth insignia. And seeing some of the items he's chosen, I am certain that he's getting the designs from the CAP Patches website.
I submitted a claim to eBay for 10 of the auctions about a week ago, claiming he was selling copies of items from copyrighted images, and selling them as authentic. eBay has done nothing so far, and he continues to put up new items.
How can I get National legal on this guy?
http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Civil-Air-Patrol-Airborne-Ranger-Shoulder-Patch_W0QQitemZ120534600262QQihZ002QQcategoryZ66528QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
...???
Anyways... I'm not sure what exactly can be done, legally, if he's outside the US...
Ace,
I've seen freedomfifty2k's offerings, and even bought one. When I received it, I definitely considered it a local reproduction. For one, the size did not match an authentic patch I have.
I eventually ended up laughing at all his camo reproductions of full-color squadron patches. To my knowledge, none of the CAWG unit patches that he's offering have been made or worn in camo.
Copyright violation? What squadron bothers to copyright their patch design?
Is that where all the subdued fakes are coming from? I was wondering.
Somebody bought an embroidery machine...
Attempts have been made to get a C&D to this person. The problem that arises is that we cant get a definative lock on the location for mail. This type of thing has fallen on death ears. CAP has made attempts in the past with this one and several others. He is in the Phillipines and we have had no luck. We did succeed with a company on ebay "USNUSA" who was selling repro Observer Wings and Pilot Wings with a vintage style. They show up every once and a while.
I'm quite amused at the subdued NBB patch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that patch should be four inches across.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/06/!BmtiObQBmk~$(KGrHqEOKjEEtqPgfsd-BLgnf(!O3g~~_3.JPG)
Quote from: caphistorian on March 01, 2010, 10:14:55 PM
Attempts have been made to get a C&D to this person. The problem that arises is that we cant get a definative lock on the location for mail. This type of thing has fallen on death ears. CAP has made attempts in the past with this one and several others. He is in the Phillipines and we have had no luck. We did succeed with a company on ebay "USNUSA" who was selling repro Observer Wings and Pilot Wings with a vintage style. They show up every once and a while.
ooooo! I've been looking for a set of those. I better watch where I buy them. It never occurred to me someone would make fake vintage
wings.
Yeah it seems really strange that anyone would take the time to rip off CAP logos, patches, wings, etc. Seems like there would only be a small market of people interested in them from which to scam... compared to say, more general military members/enthusiasts.
On the other hand, stuff like the Castle Valley Sq patch he has listed, was never produced in an embroidered version, so his version is an enhancement; the original was screen printed!
Now if we could get him to produce one-offs of OUR choosing, THAT might be worthwhile, eh Ace?
Quote from: alamrcn on March 01, 2010, 09:26:46 PM
The seller's name is Robert "Bob" Lafond, and he's in the Philippines.
Couldn't Curt just ask his cousin to "knock it off"? ;D
I wonder if this guy will start making more patches now that the Hock had to stop selling CAP stuff, Idea ...............TOM SHOULD MOVE THE HOCK SHOP TO CANADA!!!!!!!!!! :clap
cant wait to see this one show up somewhere nearby.......
(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BmtfPRg!Wk~$(KGrHqUOKj0EtlhSw,9pBLgnPVwqqQ~~_35.JPG)
mk
Since the company I work for sells quite a bit of our motorcycle tools on eBay, the best way to get it pulled is for National to contact eBay about the issue. In fact, they can NARU the seller completely.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 01, 2010, 10:41:44 PM
ooooo! I've been looking for a set of those. I better watch where I buy them. It never occurred to me someone would make fake vintage
wings.
That begs the question: if someone is creating repros of "historical" insignia (ie. the "droopy" observer/pilot wings), whats the harm? Its not like CAP has a gigantic stash of these things and they're waiting for the market to peak to unload them.....
I have a set of WWII CAP parachutist wings. Tatooed on my right bicep.
Is my bicep potentially violating CAP's trademark on a set of insignia that hasn't been worn in about 47 years?
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 03:11:00 AM
I have a set of WWII CAP parachutist wings. Tatooed on my right bicep.
You mean to say that is real?!? Wow!!! And I thought I was pushing it having a CAP sticker on my car.
Quote from: Major Carrales on March 02, 2010, 03:26:41 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 03:11:00 AM
I have a set of WWII CAP parachutist wings. Tatooed on my right bicep.
You mean to say that is real?!? Wow!!! And I thought I was pushing it having a CAP sticker on my car.
They did exist, but never officially. They look pretty good though.
Is it wrong that I want some subdued CAP patches just for the schlitz and giggles? I'd add them to my collection.
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 03:11:00 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 01, 2010, 10:41:44 PM
ooooo! I've been looking for a set of those. I better watch where I buy them. It never occurred to me someone would make fake vintage
wings.
That begs the question: if someone is creating repros of "historical" insignia (ie. the "droopy" observer/pilot wings), whats the harm? Its not like CAP has a gigantic stash of these things and they're waiting for the market to peak to unload them.....
The main reason I'd want them is the affinity for the history that is likely stored like a battery within the pin. Otherwise its just a hunk of metal.
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 03:11:00 AM
Is my bicep potentially violating CAP's trademark on a set of insignia that hasn't been worn in about 47 years?
Well, since it wasn't a real insignia to start with, probably not, though I believe there have been court challenges to
tattoo artists using Mickey Mouse and similar highly-protected trademarks.
MCCS patch from Texas...hm...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Patch-CAP-Civil-Air-Patrol-McHenry-Composite-Squadron_W0QQitemZ110492618514QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b9df8f12
Wait, whoa, back the Command Module up..
CAP Parachute wings _NOT_REAL_?
Since when?
Gentlemen, you definitely need to reacquaint yourselves with Civil Air Patrol history, especially that of Michigan Wing's Group 9 during the period from 1942 to about 1951.
A) CAP had at least one "Parachute Group," Michigan Wing's Group 9, that consisted of two parachute jumping squadrons, a parachute rigger squadron and a (pardon the term, but it dates from the 1940s) "Negro Glider Flight." (Ugh, the fact that CAP was segregated like that still works my nerves). Other wings may have had parachute jumping units, as well, especially out west, but those I am less sure of.
B) This parachute group wore a parachutist insignia that consisted of embroidered jump wings with the tri-prop superimposed on the right sleeve of the service coat. Unsure about wear on any other uniform.
C) This insignia was, to my knowledge, not "unofficial," but rather completely authorized for wear on the uniform (although, admittedly, I have not seen any uniform guidance from the 1940s that says that.. I have other historical information showing this insignia being worn. I suppose it may have been "unofficial" but I'd be really surprised if it was)
D) The parachute group actually had its own airfield and conducted parachute jumps into war bond rallies and other events.
E) One of CAP's WWII fatalities was that of a MI Wing jumper.
I have a historical monograph on the subject written with the help of the former MI Wing historian, Maj SueAnn F'Geppert, that was published in, I believe, an insignia/patch collectors magazine.
(http://www.cadetstuff.org/images/nin/cap_wings.gif)
EDITED TO ADD ATTACHMENT. (one of the gentlemen interviewed for that monograph, Eugene Cousineau, is the father of one of my jumpmasters when I learned how to skydive in the 1990s)
Quote from: sarmed1 on March 02, 2010, 02:34:09 AM
cant wait to see this one show up somewhere nearby.......
(http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!BmtfPRg!Wk~$(KGrHqUOKj0EtlhSw,9pBLgnPVwqqQ~~_35.JPG)
Could be worn on the opposite side of this...
(http://incountry.us/cappatches/FL/notmine/flwgrsub.jpg)
Created by cadets of SER-FL-383 in 1990.
Wow, my boss is always giving me crap about when I tell him I'm doing training that weekend, going to a meeting that night, etc, about how "so when are you going to learn to jump out of a plane" ... and I always have to explain that we don't do that... but now I guess I can say "we used to do that ... just like we used to drop bombs on Germans." ;)
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on March 02, 2010, 06:32:08 AM
MCCS patch from Texas...hm...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Patch-CAP-Civil-Air-Patrol-McHenry-Composite-Squadron_W0QQitemZ110492618514QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19b9df8f12
Probably just a collector - the patch looks authentic.
This guy certainly isn't the first person to make reproduction CAP insignia. The production of "commemorative" pieces to honor historical preservation of long gone or hard to come-by insignia is even somewhat accepted in the militaria collecting community.
But the rate at which this guy is making them, and only one of each, it's going to be almost impossible to determine years down the road that these pieces were not the actual ones used by Civil Air Patrol. Can you image a historian 50 years from now coming across those subdued patches? At some point, they may... No, WILL be accepted as authentic!
I'm going to try and document them as best I can, and "out him" on the CAP Patches website - where he's getting the scans.
Quote from: caphistorianAttempts have been made to get a C&D to this person. The problem that arises is that we cant get a definative lock on the location for mail.
Robert Lafond
P.O. Box 176, Catbangen
San Fernando City, La Union
Philippines, 2500
That's the address on the envelopes of the items he sells on eBay. And I think National HQ contacting eBay to get him off there is a GREAT plan! I don't know where else he'd find any market for them.
FWIW, myself and a few others are I know are standing together on obstaining from purchasing his fakes. The two main buyers, whom I've traded with in the past, were made aware that what they are purchasing are knock offs. I guess they've decided to continue to support Mr Lafond's venture into CAP replicas and have been bidding eachother up to rediculous prices! I wonder what will run out first: their checking account or the number of different patches his sewing machine can make?
Darin - Thanks for the cleaned up PDF of the Michigan Parachutists article from the ASMIC paper. Looks much better than the photocopy version I've been hauling around for years.
Quote from: alamrcn on March 02, 2010, 09:11:41 PM
Darin - Thanks for the cleaned up PDF of the Michigan Parachutists article from the ASMIC paper. Looks much better than the photocopy version I've been hauling around for years.
I scanned it, cleaned up the graphics as best as possible (from a photocopy, not spectacularly), OCR'd the text, relaid it out in Word and then recreated the PDF.
Would love to find an original.
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 03:11:00 AMI have a set of WWII CAP parachutist wings. Tatooed on my right bicep.
Is my bicep potentially violating CAP's trademark on a set of insignia that hasn't been worn in about 47 years?
Probably fine until you try to sell your bicep. Then they'll probably try to hit you up with infringement and failure to license.
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 02:07:56 PM
I have a historical monograph on the subject written with the help of the former MI Wing historian, Maj SueAnn F'Geppert, that was published in, I believe, an insignia/patch collectors magazine.
That's a pretty slick monograph. I'd seen it before, but it was mostly unreadable it had been photocopied so many times. Nice to see a good copy.
A jump squadron is an interesting concept. No way we could do it these days, but it's a neat idea.
I just looked through this book, and there was zero mention made of any type of parachute wings. Zero. I'm wondering if they weren't one of those kool, but unauthorized, items that were worn BITD.
(http://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=138)
Lt Col Ragan put the Collectors Catalog together using the research of Col Morse, Col Hopper, and the rest of the National Historical Committee. He documented mostly "official" nationally used or recognized items, and minor variations there of.
I think in the Forward, he mentions unit patches and other localized insignia would be included in a forthcoming manuscript. The parawings (and related insignia) were only known to be used by the "show jumpers" in and around Michigan. Unfortunatly, it never became a nation wide program. I believe the reproduction of the wings appeared in Lt Col Howard's Civil Air Patrol Unit Patches, Vol. 3 and later in Col Schell's unpublished U.S. Civil Air Patrol Unit and Special Activity Patches.
When that book above was published in 1986, militaria collectors of all types had the very first complete reference to Civil Air Patrol insignia. It also caused the "market" of CAP insignia to rise substantially in price.
There is an update to this book which I'm sure Maj Shaw can speak about, that Col Schell was just finishing at the time of his death.
Quote from: NIN on March 02, 2010, 02:07:56 PM
Wait, whoa, back the Command Module up..
I meant the tatoo, not the wings.
Here is a patch that I'm particularly worried about...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/01/!Bmtl(WgBGk~$(KGrHqUH-DUEttkTQYIbBLgnvkYphg~~_35.JPG)
Someone who probably is only a "general" insignia collector, has already bid on this. Are they thinking it's the real deal, or an unknown variation of the actual worn insignia? The actual ones are dark blue, and not black. But unlike most of the other fake patches, he got the measurements correct! I doubt the buyer even realizes it's a fake. Hopefully when it's in his hands he'll clearly see it isn't from the early-50s. But the misinformation from this one piece could spread like a virus!
Just look what has happened with those three "Markmanship" patches that CAP supposedly had. The appeared in one collector's reference book in error, and now they are all over the internet and shows being sold as Civil Air Patrol patches - despite the efforts to subdue the falsehood.
An update on FreedomFifty2k's counterfits...
I've used the "report an item" feature on about two dozen of Bob Lafond's items over the last month. eBay's automated complaint system is very limited, and mostly deals with big policy breakers like selling a machine gun or a human liver. And the copyright options are more for pirated media than anything. So anyway, eBay doesn't seem to care about my complaints because his existing auctions remained and many new ones followed.
I contacted Bob three times using eBay's messaging system with questions, and received replies back such as "I don't make patches" and "I'm buying several collections". He said he doesn't have to list the patches as reproductions, because he is not inferring they are originals. He did admit to using identifications and descriptions from my website, but not the pictures - and no answer on why one of my image file names appeared in an auction. No he claims to be "visiting Maryland" and "purchasing another Civil Air Patrol collection". If these are the dozen or so that he put up yesterday, they look exactly like all the others in craftsmanship. And what do you know, every one of them is displayed on the CAP Patches website!
For almost 14 years, I've shared pictures of Civil Air Patrol uniform history without incident. Although there is a Copyright notice on the website, I've never taken meassures to disable "right-clicking" on the images or even add a watermark to them. Today, I deleted the over 1000 full-size images from the website, leaving only thumbnails. I will not contribute to this forgery and tainting of our organization's uniform history!
If you collect CAP memorabilia: PLEASE do not buy from this greedy man! It only fuels him to continue making even more fakes. I know the two people who are buying almost every item he lists, and they both have been made aware (by a couple people now) that they are spending a LOT of money on reproductions. Both of these men have sold off parts of their collections before, and I'm worried will do so again - thus dispursing these fakes further out into the field. Because of this, I will soon be putting up a special page on the CAP Patches website dedicated to identifying these fakes.
Thank you to those who have expressed your shared concern on this issue.
I noticed he seems to have ramped-up production on things in the last couple of weeks.
Right-click blocks are useless, too easy to circumvent. I would suggest a watermark such as VG uses across the
whole of the insignia, though that's not going to stop him from making the patches themselves.
Quote from: alamrcn on March 03, 2010, 12:14:46 AM
There is an update to this book which I'm sure Maj Shaw can speak about, that Col Schell was just finishing at the time of his death.
There are actually two books that have been done as an update to the original catalog. The one Col Schell did will probably be the first release. There is another one being done by Lt. Col Todd Engelman. Both are very good books and will make a great addition to a collectors library. There is also another one done by Lt. Col Perrenot that has a great deal of information I would suggest.
I think these reproduction pieces "hurt" the collector. One of the things that Bill prided himself on was "truly" representing CAP history. Fakes patches do not do that. In fact they dishonor the service of the people. The only reason people do that is for the money not to honor. The same thing goes with the fake "half obsrver" wings that are put out by USNUSA on ebay. They are fake and they are cheap.
I am currently working on a project for release sometime in the near future. It will have ALL of the collectors catalogs and maybe even some of the newer versions. It will also have all of the monographs such as the Air Medals and Music Catalog. They will be available on CD from the Historical Foundation. It will also have a PDF version of the Flying Minute Men and several other items. This is going to be used as a fundraiser for the CAPHF.
I want to make CAP history available for our members.
Quote from: caphistorianI want to make CAP history available for our members.
:clap: The project sounds great, and I'm definitely looking forward to it.
Glad to hear Todd is still plugging away at his book, as well.
I didn't know of Lt Col Perrenot before his visual aids started appearing on eBay, and then he introduced himself here on CAPTalk last year in a thread about them. I hadn't considered in purchasing his work before, but now may since you have recommended it.
BTW, got an e-mail from Allan Pogorzelski last week! He was a member of the original National Historical Committee till it disbanded almost 20 years ago.
And back to the original subject...
I temporarily removed all the "Visitor Submissions" from the CAP Patches website. I hope to have thumbnails back up for them soon like the other insignia. Many of the recent batches of fakes were coming from there. I'm hypothesizing that Bob Lafond knew I was on eBay, and thought I'd buy them since I hadn't been able to preserve the real ones yet.
Hopefully the removal of the full size images from the CAP Patches website will slow him down. But with as much money as he's been making, I'm sure he'll be trolling unit websites and such for more patch images to replicate - possibly even Vanguard's website! I'm also still working on a "Replicas and Reproductions" page, so collectors can be aware of this huge influx of patches - he's made
115 in just two months to my count!
I have given some thought to recreating Maj. Regan's book, with real photos instead of the existing artwork. Getting all the pix together might be difficult, though, especially the older items.
Ace, in the last year or so eBay has significantly cut down on the "goon squad" that is the busting of illegitimate items. They WILL pick up on brand names (mostly those who have sued eBay for letting knockoffs on the site), as my fiancee tried to sell a bag that was from one company inspired by another's design (that's actually listed on the company's description of the item!), and only was there an automatic message asking me to be sure it was a legit item, it was pulled within an hour due to the name being high profile.
On the other hand, CAP Inc would probably have a lot more success in getting this removed.
With the way they shut down the The Hock Shop, I wonder why nobody's gone after E-bay?
Bet you it's because they couldn't afford the legal fees.
I suppose CAP's corporate look on eBay is that it involves mostly resales or "second hand" sales. Something that does not infringe on their rights or Vanguard's exclusive dealings.
There is a seller on eBay (might be a member, don't know) that will buy the newest released CAP patches from Vanguard, and then sell them on eBay at about a 200-300% mark-up. And there are militaria collectors on eBay who that do pay it!
I supposed eBay is the NEW Hock Shop (see that thread), that National will just ignore for now.
The stuff LaFond is making is starting to tick me off............I am waiting for him to start producing more stuff now that the the Hock has ceased
I bought two pieces in January from his original listing, just because I was curious and they were inexpensive. According to another buyer, the quality has been going down since then. He said there was some kind of "paper backing" used on some of the latest ones.
If continuity was an issue for some people with the Hock Shop, they DEFFINATELY don't want this guy making actual uniform items. Despite noticable lack of quality, the thread colors are AT MOST within the same spectrum range of an actual patch. And their sizes and/or aspect ratios are different. He apparently also can't do a merrowed (round) edge with his machine. The backs are also very different from real patches.
These obvious flaws and differences in his pieces are somewhat good, in that they can be easily identified as fakes when able to be compared to an authentic patch. So far, there have mostly only been one of each, and I think I have pictures of all of them!
Quote from: Strick on March 18, 2010, 04:07:42 PM
The stuff LaFond is making is starting to tick me off............I am waiting for him to start producing more stuff now that the the Hock has ceased
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370339439117 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370339439117) <<< I hope that's a real one.
And...don't tell anyone but, if any seller gets a certain amount of negative feedback/low DSR scores, they can be NARU'd just like that. Not saying it should be done, but just saying. He seems to keep his customers happy, worst he had for feedback is here:
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=freedomfifty2k&Dirn=Received+by (http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=freedomfifty2k&Dirn=Received+by)
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on March 18, 2010, 05:05:58 PM
Quote from: Strick on March 18, 2010, 04:07:42 PM
The stuff LaFond is making is starting to tick me off............I am waiting for him to start producing more stuff now that the the Hock has ceased
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370339439117 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370339439117) <<< I hope that's a real one.
And...don't tell anyone but, if any seller gets a certain amount of negative feedback/low DSR scores, they can be NARU'd just like that. Not saying it should be done, but just saying. He seems to keep his customers happy, worst he had for feedback is here:
http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=freedomfifty2k&Dirn=Received+by (http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=freedomfifty2k&Dirn=Received+by)
Looking at the toolhouse page provided, there is no negative feedback, but several that are listed as neutral
Exactly, basically all dealing with the fact that these are reproductions, but not mentioned in the listing. You can use that as the logic for reporting him for misleading listings, or you can buy and neg him for selling crap.