Van Maintenance

[jimmydeanno]

I would just like to gets some opinions/interpretations on this.

My wing currently has a supplement to CAPR 77-1 that says that squadrons are responsible for routine maintenance on their vans (tires, fluid changes, etc).  However, CAPR 77-1 specifically states "routine maintenance and funding is the responsibility of the wing."

To me this is stating that NHQ is telling the wing that they must provide the funding to perform the routine maintenance on it's van fleets.

The Wing I transfered from provided the funding to do just that.  My new wing does not.

My only real concern about this is the expense that the squadrons incur performing maintenance.  IMO, it is an unfair policy, especially when the vans get rotated around frequently.  For example, my squadron gets some 1986 van that needs tires, alignment, oil change, transmission flush, tune-up, (besides the paintjob, interior damage and exhaust - but those are paid for by National HQ) 

Congratulations, taking possession of that van just cost your squadron $1000.00 so you could drive it.  Three months later the Wing says, time to switch that van with another squadrons.  You get another POS van that needs the same thing.  Cha-ching, another $1000.00 maintenance fee because the other squadrons aren't maintaining as they should because they don't have the money to. (yes, this happens in my wing)

For those of you from wings that pay for the maintenance (as stated in 77-1) where does your wing get the additional funding to provide that?  Are any of you from wings that don't provide funding?  I didn't think that the wing was "allowed" to pass off their financial responsibility that was specifically stated in the regulation and I'm rather disappointed by it.

[Bluelakes 13]

We have a new 12 passenger van.  My squadron pays for the maintenance.  I had set money aside for it and then a generous parent of one of the cadets said they'll take care of the routine maintenance for no cost (they own an auto shop).  Have you tried asking the cadets?

When we requested a van it was "sold" to us as a Group asset from the previous Group commander.  It gets used as much by my squadron as others from Group or Wing (counting the miles).   I guess if some big repair is needed, I can charge back to the biggest users, but with the Wing Banking procedures, that may be a bigger pain in the derrier.  I guess I'll pass that bridge when I come to it.

Of course, you can always decline the van until a better one comes along...

[brasda91]

at one time, our squadron paid for the insurance.  that has stopped over the last couple of years.  my wing van maintanence sent me an e-mail with the insurance card attached.  no obligation to cover the expense.  we usually pay for the oil changes and other misc. expenses, but since you have reminded me regarding the wings responsibility, we may start requesting reimbursement from wing.

[jimmydeanno]

So I assume that IL wing doesn't pay for routine maintenance.  All of my members are either white collar professionals or the "retail" type.  There aren't really "tradesmen" that are mechanic types so you got a great deal with your maintenance.

BTW, non routine maintenance is funded by NHQ so you wouldn't need to charge back anyone.  But in your case, say your "big users" say, "it's not my van, I'm not paying" or "we don't have the money to help you maintain that van."  Then your stuck with a bill...

Don't you find it rather odd that you, as a squadron, can manage to set aside enough money to fund your routine maintenance, but the wing that is actually given money every year can't?

I guess my real issue is that NHQ says that funding for it is the responsibility of the wing but they pass off that responsibility to the squadrons. As for "passing up a van" until another comes along, that's really not an option for us.  Isn't one of the main fundamentals of leadership that you can't pass off responsibility...

[Bluelakes 13]

Don't you find it rather odd that you, as a squadron, can manage to set aside enough money to fund your routine maintenance, but the wing that is actually given money every year can't?

LOL - no.

As for "passing up a van" until another comes along, that's really an option for us.  Isn't one of the main fundamentals of leadership that you can't pass off responsibility...

If you wish to view it that way.  Now, pony up!   

[Ford73Diesel]

Have you tried asking the cadets?

Thats a good idea. There is a cadet in my squadron who is ASE certified  and assists with vehicles when asked.

[SDF_Specialist]

If you can't find a cadet, maybe you or someone in your unit knows someone who is ASE certified, and will do the maintenance for free. Be sure to explore every option. You may be surprised at what you find!!

[Pylon]

I think the point of the thread is that National has already assigned this responsibility to the Wing, so why should squadrons need to scrape up already limited funding to maintain a wing asset, regardless of how much they use it?

If an aircraft is hangared at your squadron's airport, and you use it often, should your squadron be expected to foot the bill for the next 100hr and oil change?

The CAPR 77-1 seems pretty clear to me.  I'd clarify with the Wing IG.

[jimmydeanno]

^Bingo Thanks pylon

[Cadet Tillett]

IMO, the reg means what the reg says.  If your wing isn't funding your maintenance, there's something wrong.  As far as how to fix the problem, I don't know.  Talk to someone at wing and try to work things out.  Good luck. 

[Fifinella]

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing in the reg, but my wing laughed at me when I brought it up, and said if I wanted a van, I could pay for it.

I understand there are alternate resources, as others have pointed out (cadet mechanics, etc.)  The point is, if the reg says wing pays for this, how do these wings get away with sticking the squadrons with the expenses?

I inherited a squadron with $48 in its checking account.  Along with completely overhauling a squadron that was nearly dead and violating multiple regulations, I gotta convince wing to give me a van, and then I gotta generate funds to pay for it???

[Pericles]

I inherited a squadron with $48 in its checking account.  Along with completely overhauling a squadron that was nearly dead and violating multiple regulations, I gotta convince wing to give me a van, and then I gotta generate funds to pay for it???

Yep, Been there, done that.  It really hacked the Wing off when I refused to sign the turn over audit.  But as soon as you sign it, it becomes your problem.

There are always sharpsters who are trying to figure out how to take money out of your pocket and put it in theirs.  Or in this case, how to take it out of the squadron funds and leave it in the Wing for goodies for the staff.

[SarDragon]

If you can't find a cadet, maybe you or someone in your unit knows someone who is ASE certified, and will do the maintenance for free. Be sure to explore every option. You may be surprised at what you find!!

Q. Why do mechanics drive crappy cars?

A. Because they are so tired of working on everyone else's that they don't feel like working on their own.

Being asked to do freebie work is a real problem for some folks. Tread gently in that area before proceeding. There was discussion of CFIs doing free work earlier. Similar deal.

[Pylon]

I don't think asking members to volunteer to work on corporate vehicles is the answer.  In the case of a cadet mechanic putting new brakes on the van, who's liable if the van flies through a busy intersection loaded with cadets?   Also, a Maj Bowles eloquently said -- who wants to pay to become a volunteer member of CAP so they can work on your van for free?   

Again, the answer lies in enforcing the National regulation that already exists.   There's no problems with the situation if the current setup is just enforced.   Wing says "tough cookie"?  Speak to the Region IG or call FWA.  Making a squadron use funds for something the Wings are already assigned to fund is a misuse of the Wing's funds.  I think Region would be interested in clearing up the matter.

[Skyray]

Wasn't there a directive a while back that maintenance was only to be done by established firms with deep pockets?

And the problem with your complaint to the Region IG is that the Region IG is appointed by the same guy that appointed the guy you are complaining about, and the likelihood is that they are good buddies and the region commander is more likely to suggest that his buddy get rid of you than he is likely to get rid of his buddy.  At the very least, that is what people are afraid of.  Ask Tom Rochford how much good you do by complaining.

[SJFedor]

Wasn't there a directive a while back that maintenance was only to be done by established firms with deep pockets?

I remember a directive requiring that our aircraft mx companies hold at least a $1mil insurance, but I don't remember seeing one for our van fleet.

[RiverAux]

There is always the possibility that when they wrote the regulation they only meant to say that routine maintenance is a Wing, rather than NHQ responsibility. 

Since your Wing apparently has a properly reviewed and approved supplement pawning off this responsibility to the squadrons then it is "legal". 

That being said, I certainly agree that it could be read that the Wing has to pay for routine maintenance, and I certainly wouldn't have approved a supplement saying otherwise (if I had such authority). 

[Fifinella]

No Wing Supplement that I know of...

[badger bob]

b. Routine maintenance and funding is the responsibility of the wing. Follow manufacturer's recommended schedule for recurring maintenance. Use the schedule that best suits driving conditions for the vehicle. For COVs that do not have a manufacturer's recurring routine maintenance schedule, the schedule at attachment 6 is suggested.

I believe that you may be reading 77-1 too literally. NHQ does not assign equipment to groups or squadrons. NHQ assigns all of their assets to Wings. As the Corporate Officer, the Wing Commander has the responsibility to assign assets where needed and ensure compliance with regulations. In 77-1, the "responsibility of the wing" does not mean  that the wing budget will foot the bill- it only means the wing must ensure routine maintenance is done and someone pays the bill other than NHQ.

Some wings are well funded and can easily cover maintenance costs- other wings can not cover the expenses and they require that the assigned squadrons cover maintenance. Wings do not receive a routine maintainace budget or funds from NHQ, but all non-routine expenses are reimbursed to the wing and the wing then pays the bill.

[RiverAux]

No Wing Supplement that I know of...

The original poster said there was for his wing. Your wing may do it differently.