FLM "sortie" equivalent

[Walkman]

Doing an ES training calendar for the unit. We want to get FLM personnel as we have no-one that's qual'd right now. I'm going to ask another unit to help. What time period should I plan on for each of the Exercise Participation tasks on the SQTR? Are the FLM "sorties" or is each exercise a specific time frame?

[lordmonar]

Well....that's a good question.

Mission base sorties are six hours or any portion there of....for purpsse of the SAR ribbons/CD/DHS ribbons.

But 60-3 says that a sortie....counting for training......is any sortie where all aspects of the training are covered or used.

For FLM.........let's be realistic.......for most squadorns with a single aircraft......on a busy SAREX.....may marshall the aircraft 3-4 times in a six hour peoriod.

So.....don't schedule a SAREX just to FLM......but have other training ready and going....and when the opprotunity comes to marshall...stop the training and get everyone who needs the OJT out there doing it.

[SarDragon]

When I got initially qualified, many moons ago, we practiced on each other, and with a golf cart to get the basic moves down, then actually marshaled a real airplane to get qualified. It cut down on burning airplane gas, and provided a safer environment for folks who were new at being around aircraft.

[Eclipse]

Your wing may have a definition of non-mission training sorties, lacking a supplement to 60-3, then 60-3, as quoted above, is your guide.

[JeffDG]

Mission base sorties are six hours or any portion there of....for purpsse of the SAR ribbons/CD/DHS ribbons.

Can you cite a source for that?  Because as I read 60-3 there's no reference to "six hours" anywhere.

These two "missions" do not have to be on different mission numbers, be AFAMs, or be completed after all other advanced training is complete, but personnel must have completed all familiarization and preparatory training in order to receive credit for these sorties. These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.

[Eclipse]

^ Actually, the definition of a base-staff sortie is only found in 39-3 in regards to the SAR ribbon, and it defines it as 8 hours, no more than one in a 24 hour period.

[JeffDG]

^ Actually, the definition of a base-staff sortie is only found in 39-3 in regards to the SAR ribbon, and it defines it as 8 hours, no more than one in a 24 hour period.

OK, I've always treated it as an Operational Period (per ICS), and every mission I've been on so far has used a 24 hours Operational Period.

The IC is free to select a different Operational Period, but it adds a lot of paperwork to go shorter!

[EMT-83]

When I got initially qualified, many moons ago, we practiced on each other, and with a golf cart to get the basic moves down, then actually marshaled a real airplane to get qualified. It cut down on burning airplane gas, and provided a safer environment for folks who were new at being around aircraft.

Remember, the use of golf carts at a CAP activity requires Wing approval. Placing cadets in front of an actual spinning prop requires... oh, never mind.

[Eclipse]

^ Actually, the definition of a base-staff sortie is only found in 39-3 in regards to the SAR ribbon, and it defines it as 8 hours, no more than one in a 24 hour period.

OK, I've always treated it as an Operational Period (per ICS), and every mission I've been on so far has used a 24 hours Operational Period.

24 hours for an OP?  I've never been on a mission where they were longer then 8, and recently they have been shrinking down to 6 to allow for ICS hand-off during the course of a normal day.

Of course an IC can designate the Ops Period, but the criteria for award of the ribbon sorties can't be changed by anyone but NHQ.

FLM is a weird one, since I could see the argument made that the morning launch of all the airplanes could be considered a "sortie", but in the end it's really up to the evaluator.

Air sorties are easy - wheels up / wheels down.  Next comes GT - released / return. But when it comes to the more subjective ones, then it's not as easy.

Maybe someone from NBB could answer what they do - we don't so much FLM anymore around me.

[SarDragon]

^ Actually, the definition of a base-staff sortie is only found in 39-3 in regards to the SAR ribbon, and it defines it as 8 hours, no more than one in a 24 hour period.

OK, I've always treated it as an Operational Period (per ICS), and every mission I've been on so far has used a 24 hours Operational Period.

FLM is a weird one, since I could see the argument made that the morning launch of all the airplanes could be considered a "sortie", but in the end it's really up to the evaluator.

I've never seen it done any other way. It is usually very easy for the member [to participate] in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty.

[SarDragon]

When I got initially qualified, many moons ago, we practiced on each other, and with a golf cart to get the basic moves down, then actually marshaled a real airplane to get qualified. It cut down on burning airplane gas, and provided a safer environment for folks who were new at being around aircraft.

Remember, the use of golf carts at a CAP activity requires Wing approval. Placing cadets in front of an actual spinning prop requires... oh, never mind.

I'm hoping you simply forgot the appropriate smiley. 

[Garibaldi]

When I got initially qualified, many moons ago, we practiced on each other, and with a golf cart to get the basic moves down, then actually marshaled a real airplane to get qualified. It cut down on burning airplane gas, and provided a safer environment for folks who were new at being around aircraft.

Remember, the use of golf carts at a CAP activity requires Wing approval. Placing cadets in front of an actual spinning prop requires... oh, never mind.

I'm hoping you simply forgot the appropriate smiley. 

Many moons ago is an old CAP saying. My stepmonster who was in CAP in 1967 used it for quite some time.

[lordmonar]

^ Actually, the definition of a base-staff sortie is only found in 39-3 in regards to the SAR ribbon, and it defines it as 8 hours, no more than one in a 24 hour period.

OK, I've always treated it as an Operational Period (per ICS), and every mission I've been on so far has used a 24 hours Operational Period.

24 hours for an OP?  I've never been on a mission where they were longer then 8, and recently they have been shrinking down to 6 to allow for ICS hand-off during the course of a normal day.

Of course an IC can designate the Ops Period, but the criteria for award of the ribbon sorties can't be changed by anyone but NHQ.

FLM is a weird one, since I could see the argument made that the morning launch of all the airplanes could be considered a "sortie", but in the end it's really up to the evaluator.

Air sorties are easy - wheels up / wheels down.  Next comes GT - released / return. But when it comes to the more subjective ones, then it's not as easy.

Maybe someone from NBB could answer what they do - we don't so much FLM anymore around me.

Not and OP.....but and Operational Period.   This is NEMA talk for how far in advance the IC should be planning his operations.  You work in 24 hour periods.  The OP may only last an hour.....it may last a month.....but you plan in 24 hour periods. 
NOW a shift that a specific inidividual wroks.....should be anywhere between 8 and no more the 16 hours.

The reason why 39-3 had to define the "sortie" for mission base is because 60-1 and 60-3 don't define it.

An aircraft sortie is wheels up til wheels down....and/or any 2 hour peoriod in the air......so if you take off on a 3 hour flight...that counts as two sorties for the SAR/CD/DHS ribbon.

Ground sorties are from depature to return and/or any 4 hour peiriod in the field/on the road.

Now.....a sortie is also wheels up, once around the airport and land again.  Or load up the van drive to the end of the street and back again.....I in fact got one sortie for driving 4 miles....before someone else found the target and the search was canceled......only about 10 minutes on the road....but it still counts as a sortie.

BUT......for the two GTM3 trainees.....I did not count it as a mission as it was not long enough for them to demonstrate their GTM skills.

[Walkman]

OK, here's a scenario:

There's a small grass airfield locally that has a fly-in twice a year and we always help. If a person were to marshall planes during the landing in the AM and then go and park cars or whatever, then marshall again for departure in the PM, would that count as one to two sorties?

[vento]

OK, here's a scenario:

There's a small grass airfield locally that has a fly-in twice a year and we always help. If a person were to marshall planes during the landing in the AM and then go and park cars or whatever, then marshall again for departure in the PM, would that count as one to two sorties?

For the scenario above you will have to check with your Wing to see if it is even allowed. In my wing we are not allowed to marshall non CAP aircraft, period.

[Walkman]

For the scenario above you will have to check with your Wing to see if it is even allowed. In my wing we are not allowed to marshall non CAP aircraft, period.

Roger that.

[Eclipse]

There's a small grass airfield locally that has a fly-in twice a year and we always help. If a person were to marshall planes during the landing in the AM and then go and park cars or whatever, then marshall again for departure in the PM, would that count as one to two sorties?

Assuming you meant "or", the answer is "yes", or "no".  Depends.

+1 on Vento's comment about marshaling non-CAP aircraft - this can be very dangerous.  First, some pilots have no idea what to do when a marshaller is directing them - I've seen it personally, second, your average "Joe Pilot" may decide he doesn't have to take CAP's direction, and
zig when directed to zag.