Exceptions to Gender-Based Grooming Standards?

Started by CadetFaith, October 20, 2014, 02:58:05 PM

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CadetFaith

(Apologies if this isn't in the best fitting board)

So, I'm a male Cadet Airman Basic in the Maryland Wing that's been in Civil Air Patrol for roughly 5 months or so (going off the top of my head). I love the activities, comradery, and wearing the uniform. However, (and it's kind of strange to explain on this forum) I'm very unhappy with myself, and, for several reasons, believe I may be potentially happier as a male-to-female transgender. As I've developed these feelings, getting haircuts to fit Civil Air Patrol has become more and more uncomfortable and anxious.
Are there any past cases of, or validity to, requesting something like permission to abide by female grooming standards desite being biologically male? I understand the importance of respecting the Air Force uniforms we've been allowed to wear; I just don't want to have to either wait until I'm 21 or prematurily leave the cadet program to even begin growing out my hair like, y'know, a girl.

Sorry for the somewhat uncomfortable topic!
"Rangerrific!"

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

Flying Pig

Its not an uncomfortable topic.  The answer is No.  The US military doesn't allow it either.  And for the record.... great way to attempt to bait negative comments about gay cadets in CAP. 

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 20, 2014, 03:33:53 PM
Its not an uncomfortable topic.  The answer is No.  The US military doesn't allow it either.  And for the record.... great way to attempt to bait negative comments about gay cadets in CAP.


Honestly, if anyone came at this with a negative view on anything LGBT, it would be out of line with CAP Core Values and EO.

NIN

NHQ is actually looking at ways to address this (esp transgender issues) but nothing is really written.

I think the rule, for the moment, is "the gender you've ID'd as is probably the gender you participate as"

Now, this doesn't mean that you and your commander can't have a conversation about your specific situation and circumstances.

But for the moment there is no national level guidance on it, which basically means at least until there is some definition, that its between you and your commander.

As I once said "how many male cadets would identify as female for the purposes of billeting at summer encampment?" :) (thats kind of a joke, but speaks to the need to be a little more careful/thoughtful/formal about it)
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

MSG Mac

Before even bringing this subject to the forums, have you addressed this problem to your parents, Squadron Commander, a  Medical Professional, or Chaplain? Transgender operations take several years of psychological  counseling, hormone therapy, and finally a series of operations. As said earlier the D of D doesn't allow transgender individuals into the services, but CAP doesn't have DOD standards for joining other than the criminal background checks for Senior and the Citizenship or Permanent Residency regulations.   
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

LSThiker

The legal implications vary depending on state.  The best to answer these questions is a coordination with you, your parents, your doctor, your commanders, and CAP legal.  These are people that will make the final determination. 

I have several friends that are transgender.  My state refuses to do anything for them without a signed letter from a medical doctor.  While the regulations state no, CAP legal may state otherwise.  Also, just because the USAF does not allow it, does not mean CAP will not.  The USAF can limit a lot of things while CAP cannot due to our civilian status. 

CadetFaith

Quote from: Flying Pig on October 20, 2014, 03:33:53 PM
Its not an uncomfortable topic.  The answer is No.  The US military doesn't allow it either.  And for the record.... great way to attempt to bait negative comments about gay cadets in CAP.

Er. My intention was nowhere near attempting to draw negative attention. If anything, I was trying to word my post as to be as far from inflammatory as I could manage. I'm sorry if I didn't realize that some part of my post, or the topic in general, could be considered drama-bait.

Quote from: MSG Mac on October 20, 2014, 04:05:10 PM
Before even bringing this subject to the forums, have you addressed this problem to your parents, Squadron Commander, a  Medical Professional, or Chaplain? Transgender operations take several years of psychological  counseling, hormone therapy, and finally a series of operations. As said earlier the D of D doesn't allow transgender individuals into the services, but CAP doesn't have DOD standards for joining other than the criminal background checks for Senior and the Citizenship or Permanent Residency regulations.

I have not. The purpose of this post was primarily to get an idea of whether or not I would be allowed, in CAP, to grow longer hair if I were to 'transition'. I don't want to go to a gender therapist, be medically diagnosed with gender dysphoria (it's still a possibility that I don't have any such thing, and it's just teenage hormonal silliness or something), and then wind up not only unable to join the military (I've accepted that this will be the case if I were to pursue this) but also unable to grow my hair to a 'feminine' length.


I appreciate the informative answers, and apologize if I was confusing, got too personal, or if I've made a big deal out of nothing. Or anything else someone would want me to apologize about, I don't know. :P
"Rangerrific!"

LSThiker

Quote from: CadetFaith on October 20, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
I don't want to go to a gender therapist, be medically diagnosed with gender dysphoria (it's still a possibility that I don't have any such thing, and it's just teenage hormonal silliness or something), and then wind up not only unable to join the military (I've accepted that this will be the case if I were to pursue this) but also unable to grow my hair to a 'feminine' length.

By helping my friends, it can be a very long and very confusing journey.  Seek help and guidance from support groups, when needed.  Do not attempt it alone.

Eclipse

Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2014, 04:51:46 PMThe USAF can limit a lot of things while CAP cannot due to our civilian status.

Cannot?  CAP is a private organization with "at will" membership.  It can, and does, limit anything it wants.

Further, the USAF determines the wear standards for all of CAP's uniforms, and therefore has the final word on who can where which
styles and the manner in which they will be worn, including any grooming issues.

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

Quote from: Eclipse on October 20, 2014, 07:55:30 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2014, 04:51:46 PMThe USAF can limit a lot of things while CAP cannot due to our civilian status.

Cannot?  CAP is a private organization with "at will" membership.  It can, and does, limit anything it wants.

Yes it can limit certain things, but not anything it wants.  Can CAP say "no blacks allowed"?  No women?  No Muslims?  No disabled?

Eclipse

Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2014, 08:06:32 PMYes it can limit certain things, but not anything it wants.  Can CAP say "no blacks allowed"?  No women?  No Muslims?  No disabled?

Citation, please.

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

Quote from: Eclipse on October 20, 2014, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2014, 08:06:32 PMYes it can limit certain things, but not anything it wants.  Can CAP say "no blacks allowed"?  No women?  No Muslims?  No disabled?

Citation, please.

CAPR 36-1

The Constitution of the Civil Air Patrol, Article VII, states, "Discrimination based on
age, disability or the provisions of Title VI and VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is
prohibited."

Eclipse

#13
The CAP constitution has no power of law and can be changed, by CAP, any time it wants to change it.

CAP chooses to cooperate with any number of regulations enacted by the federal government and related agencies
and organizations as best practice, but not because of legal mandate. 

Title VI likely applies because of the appropriation, but it obviusly doesn't provide for the allowance of carter blanche
behavior or dress by members.  Title VII however, doesn't apply, except for HQ employees.  NHQ makes it very clear that members are not employees.
The ADA and HIPPA are two more that come to mind, except for the small number of HQ employees.

Voluntarily cooperating, doesn't equal "mandated".

In this case it's irrelevant anyway, since the subject is not within CAP's control, nor is there any allowance for
a local CC to "make allowances" - that would be about the worst case I could imagine, since it would set an expectation
not supported anywhere except for with in that unit - encampments, SARExs, NCSAs, nor any other outside activities
would be mandated to allow the practice.  At a minimum, if its an issue, it needs to be addressed directly nu the Wing CC and JA,
with approval of any "compromise" by NHQ.

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

Quote from: Eclipse on October 20, 2014, 08:44:26 PM
The CAP constitution has no power of law and can be changed, by CAP, any time it wants to change it.

CAP chooses to cooperate with any number of regulations enacted by the federal government and related agencies
and organizations as best practice, but not because of legal mandate. 

Title VII for example, doesn't apply, except for HQ employees.  NHQ makes it very clear that members are not employees.
The ADA and HIPPA are two more that come to mind.

Voluntarily cooperating, doesn't equal "mandated".

Perhaps you should actually read CAPR 36-1:

QuoteTitle VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 provides that no person in the United States
shall, on the grounds of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be
denied the benefits of, or be otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity
receiving federal financial assistance.

QuoteTitle III of the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 provides that no person in the United
States shall, on the basis of age, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or
be otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving federal
financial assistance.

QuoteDOD Directive 5500.11, Nondiscrimination in Federally Assisted Programs, is the
basic implementing directive for Department of Defense compliance with Title VI of the Civil
Rights Act of 1964, and is applicable to the Civil Air Patrol

QuoteDOD Directive 1020.1, Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Handicap in Programs and
Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of Defense, is the basic implementing
directive for DOD compliance with the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, Section 504. It states that no
qualified handicapped person in the United States shall on the basis of handicap be excluded
from participation in, denied the benefit of, or otherwise subjected to discrimination under any
program or activity conducted by the Federal Government or receiving Federal financial
assistance.

QuoteAFI 36-2707, Nondiscrimination in Programs and Activities Assisted or Conducted by
the Department of the Air Force, is the Air Force implementing directive for DOD Directive
5500.11 and DOD Directive 1020.1.

Basically, the USAF and CAP legal disagrees with you and so does the US Law as long as we continue to receive federal money, which we do.  So again, no CAP cannot limit anything it wants as long as it wants to stay in its current paradigm.  So in this case, I think I will trust CAP and USAF.

Eclipse

Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2014, 08:48:25 PMSo again, no CAP cannot limit anything it wants as long as it wants to stay in its current paradigm.

Private organizations may do whatever they like.  The rest is a matter of funding and public relations.

You might also consider exhaling on a response long enough for someone to finish typing.

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

Quote from: Eclipse on October 20, 2014, 08:51:02 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on October 20, 2014, 08:48:25 PMSo again, no CAP cannot limit anything it wants as long as it wants to stay in its current paradigm.

Private organizations may do whatever they like.  The rest is a matter of funding and public relations.

You might also consider exhaling on a response long enough for someone to finish typing.

Sorry, perhaps instead of posting then editing, you can finish your thought and then hit post.  I cannot predict when you will decide to edit your posts after you post. 

Yes, private organizations may do whatever they like, except when the USAF tells CAP what they cannot do based on their own regulations and US law.  So yes, if CAP were to cut all ties with the USAF and drop all federal funding, then yes CAP could restriction membership to all of those.  If that happens, I doubt this conversation would even be necessary as CAP would likely die due to the lack of funding.  Regardless, CAP cannot now because the USAF says otherwise.  Moving on from this rather pointless academic discussion. 

Storm Chaser

Interesting. CAP limits the age in which someone can become a member. CAP also limits the age in which members can participate in certain activities and in which they can be qualified in certain specialties. It also limits some members from participation in certain activities based on disability and other physical limitations. Would all this be considered discrimination? What about the fact that, while discrimination based on race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability is expressly prohibited in CAPR 36-1, there's no clear prohibition against discrimination due to sexual orientation?

CAPM 39-1 clearly states that members must adhere to the required grooming standards for the USAF-style uniform and that changes in standards or exceptions must be approved by the USAF. It also states that "[l]ocal commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards." In other words, while CAP should not discriminate against its members, it can require them to comply with grooming standards, such as haircuts, regardless of the personal preferences of its members.

LSThiker

Quote from: Storm Chaser on October 20, 2014, 09:23:42 PM
Interesting. CAP limits the age in which someone can become a member. CAP also limits the age in which members can participate in certain activities and in which they can be qualified in certain specialties. It also limits some members from participation in certain activities based on disability and other physical limitations. Would all this be considered discrimination?

No assuming there is a strong rationale for this limitation and it can be legally supported.  For example, NBB, supposedly, requires 16 year olds because Wisconsin work laws.  disability might also mean not participating safely in the event.   

QuoteWhat about the fact that, while discrimination based on race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability is expressly prohibited in CAPR 36-1, there's no clear prohibition against discrimination due to sexual orientation?

This is where CAP legal would need to be involved as sexual orientation is not federally protected, yet it is protected at the state level (some at least).  So it would be interesting to see which direction CAP would go in this case. 

QuoteCAPM 39-1 clearly states that members must adhere to the required grooming standards for the USAF-style uniform and that changes in standards or exceptions must be approved by the USAF. It also states that "[l]ocal commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards." In other words, while CAP should not discriminate against its members, it can require them to comply with grooming standards, such as haircuts, regardless of the personal preferences of its members.

Again, this would require CAP legal to make the decision with coordination with CAP-USAF.

FW

Grooming standards for cadets are straight forward, and do not allow for a wide range of options.  Your question, however, poses an interesting problem better handled by professionals.  Gender identity is a complex issue.  CAP has a non discrimination policy which may extend to transgendered members, but this is better dealt with after you talk to someone who has the expertise to have a meaningful conversation with you.   

In my opinion, the only option for you is to dress according to regulation.  If you identify as male, or female... :angel: