ES Quals

[flyguy06]

I was looking at the ES requirements for various ES specialties and wonder how volunteers do it. There is a lot of stuff. For example:

In order to be a Incident Commander you have to be an Operations Branch Director.

In order to be an Operations Branc Director you have to be a Planing director

In order to be a Planning driector you have to be a Mission pilot/Obv or Ground Team Leader.


So basically it takes years to become a Incident Commander aand that if you continuously go to training and get the prerquisites.

How do you all find the time todo that and have a regular job, take care of family and just leisure things?

[lordmonar]

Well you said it....it takes years.

In theory it would only take a single two day SAREX to get qualified on each speciality.

So....MS-MO-PD-AOBD-IC3....one SAREX a month you could, in theory, be an IC3 in only 5 months.

Reaslistically you would take years to get to be an IC....because you would want your IC's to be majors and Lt Cols...which also...normally...takes years to get.

[isuhawkeye]

yup

In my book it takes a year to get an initial ES operational specialty. 

It takes another year to gain enough knowledge and experience to be a branch director

and yet a third year to raise to the point of being an IC

[RiverAux]

What is possible according to the books is not reality.  I very much doubt there are many ICs out there that haven't been in CAP at least 5 years.  Most people frankly aren't interested in going above the aircrew/ground team level and it isn't until they've been at that level for a while before someone talks them into going higher. 

[lordmonar]

I have to agree with RiveAux on this one...we have a lot of problems trying to get people to qualify for the mission base jobs....I in fact are working on my mission base rateings simply because...if we have not mission base we can't do the GT and Aircrew stuff that I like.

[Eclipse]

How do you all find the time todo that and have a regular job, take care of family and just leisure things?

Leisure things...I remember those...like reading the tasking guide and shining your boots between meetings?

That's one of the reasons I am so hot generally about people who are twice-a-year members and then complain about not getting missions or bling.

I am:
Squadron Commander
Encampment Commander
Group Staffer
Active GTL/GBD & Aircrew (10ish missions a year).
Plus I teach for the motorcycle rider program, which I view as complementary in a lot of ways.
(not tooting my horn, only for the discussion)

"Vacation" days are generally either travel to a mission, executing a mission, or some other CAP event.
I trickle them out over the year - can't remember when I have taken a whole week at once.  Oh, yeah!  The "Big One".  :-)

Most people I work with say I do a pretty good job, and yet as current as I am in the program and operations, when we spin up to a mission I generally feel like we all have a fingertip grasp on what needs to be done, if for no other reason than we are working next to people who do this full time.

Honestly, you really can't be proficient unless you are devoting a whole lot of time to this, especially ES.
Like firemen, the majority of the time is spent preparing for events that may never occur, so that you are ready when they call (like the NTSB thing mentioned in another thread).

The frustration comes in when you have people of mixed ops temp participating together, and the ones who haven't cinched their gear in a year aren’t current on regs changes, forms, or procedures, and you spend the whole time nursing them along, most of the time with a reward of complaints about "how much work this is and how busy they are…"

For rank and file members, its one thing, but I get especially frustrated with members who have accepted positions of responsibility and authority and then shirk those duties because they are "too busy". 

I would say it takes at least 6 months to 1 year of good participation to get your first specialty completed, from there it gets easier because many are complimentary or you get to know the players and the field.  People who pick one thing and stick with it have a much easier time than people who want to do it all, because maintaining currency, when you have to redo all the tasks and do missions is a challenge.

But we wouldn't want it any other way, the bar is low enough as it is, without encouraging even more.

It >is< amusing in an ironic way to hear pilots, with GTM quals as well, complain about all the work that has to be done to maintain their badge, while their Form 5's, 91's, medicals, biannuals, etc., are just "par for the course".

And we're in this position because we are so understaffed and unfocused.
We waste enormous amounts of time on administrivia and meaningless, low-impact, high-noise nonsense, and we have too many members who treat CAP like a social club or a hobby.

[flyguy06]

You are right, but CAP is a  hobby to most middle class people. I used to be a ramp agent for an airline. I cant just tell my supervisor "Hey, I gotta miss work to go out and look for a missing plane? He'll ask me "is it military related absence?" I'll say no and I may not have a job when I get back.

Most active people in CAP either own their own business, work from home or have a schedule that permits them to take time off to go to CAP training or miss work for missions. Or they are retired. That kinda makes CAP an elitiest group of people because the vast majority of middle class people are trying to take care of their families have to make a living to put food on the tavle just cannot devote that kind of time.

I can help out when I can help out. I enjoy CAP,  but it deosnt put food on my table. The desire is there but reality is also there as well. Which is I am not a big advocate of ES.

I want to participate in missions when I can, but you are right the proficiency level will decrease. I work for the county as a cop. I have a rotating shift schedule. I work on a lot of Saturdays. So what do you propose I do?


CAP has become kind of elitest as only certain kind of people can afford to be active and therefore they will be the ones to excel in the program.

Thats why I posed the question how do so many of you guys do it? How are you able to go away for a week to RSC or NSC or the NESA? On my job I only get a week vacation a year. Imagine if I were married with children, then it would be worse huh?

[Eclipse]

Most of my vacation time I burn on CAP. Also, there is a difference between a "hobby" and "volunteerism".
I have all respect and latitude for members who commit all they can, none for people who treat CAP like a social club.

The reality is, CAP is not for everyone, nor should it be. Some people, or at certain times in your life, just can't afford the time to spend on CAP, which is fine.

People with inflexible schedules, family obligations, financial burdens, etc., may not be able to participate - that doesn't make it elitist, it just makes it what it is.  Or active members may need to take some time away.
That's fine, too.

I can't argue, however, that the demographic of active CAP people is largely professionals with flexible schedules.  Flying is expensive, and we solicit pilots, it just stands to reason much of the air crew people will be financially stable. When your hobby coast $150 an hour, you have to get it somewhere…

Same goes for Ground pounders.  Sure you can get into the game with little expense, borrow gear, etc., but to
really be considered an asset, you have to have a 1/2-way decent vehicle, a fair amount of gear, and the time to go.  Sure ELT's tend to go off at night, but you have to have a job that lets you come in late, or be sleepy the next day.  Not every one does.

And though you may not get military-type benefits from your company, many do, or at least increased flexibility.

There's also no rule that says to participate in ES you have to go to BMT, but if your time is limited, you have to make choices about where you spend it.

And again, if it is limited, you have to accept that it will take you longer than others to progress and get quals - that's just how it works, but if you're not an Alpha-Hotel when you come out to missions, then no one will care.  My issue is generally with guys who never do any training, and then want to come and play in the "fun" stuff.

As the Source would tell us, life is choice.

I don't watch sports, nor do I have cable at home, rare is the night that I plunk in front of the TV and veg.

Rare, also, is the night that I don't spend 2+ hours on the phone regarding CAP or hit the rack before about 1am.

There are months when I go nowhere but work, home, the airport, or the Navy base.  I have worn grooves in the streets and my truck can drive itself.

My CAP involvement is prominent on my resume and when I interview for a job, my commitments are discussed from day one.

I have an amazingly understanding spouse who "gets it" and encourages my participation, but I also make sure to do my share around the house, and with the kids.

This isn't a boast or a knock to anyone who doesn't do that, these are my choices - so I can participate at a higher ops temp than the "average" member, and when interesting or rare opportunities come up, I can go.
These are my choices. They bring responsibilities and obligations, but also afford unique opportunities.

These choices are not for everyone, or even most, but I would imagine that if you polled most of the high-speeds you know in CAP, whether cadet orientated or ES, you would find similar stories.

[lordmonar]

Flyguy has hit on the core of what CAP is.

Everyone who is out there lamenting how our leadership sucks, how the guys who are doing the jobs are not really expeirced enough or that we should require BA/BS degress (or their equivalant) have missed the simple point that Flyguy has seen........CAP is a hobby that the first and most important criteria is the desire to serve followed by the time/money to put into it.

You lament the flying club mentality....or the CP only/ES only/AE only guys (and I am guilty of this too) but you only have so much time and money to give to CAP.

So how do you find the time/mone....well you take what you can get and you give what you can.

No need to be qualified in 100 different ES specialties and 15 different specialty tracks.  You talk to your commander and find a job in the squadron/group/wing that fits the time you have to give to CAP.

You work with your employer and see what he can do for you?  Invite him to a SAREX or a squadron meeting.  Maybe something can be worked out.  You take care of yourself and your family first then you take care of CAP.

I am luck I have job where they will give me time off (mission allowing) and my wife is happy to let me out of the house for a couple of hours a week and some weekends off (but my ass belongs to her the rest of the time...so don't bother to ask to go and play cards or go drinking).

CAP is a hobby you have to work at...and many can't do it...hence our high turn over.

[ZigZag911]

After about 30 years I was a Comm Unit Leader.

It then took five years of concentrated effort to qualify as IC3, moving up the ladder step by step.

And you almost have to have one or two mentors guiding you through the process.

I did not, however, neglect home, job or family!

[Eclipse]

lordmonar hit it on the head, find one or two things and work those rther than trying to be a jack of all trades.  GTM seems like a big plate of mashed potatoes taken as one lump, but one task at a time its not a big deal, especially for a cop, or similiar.

It might take yo longer than most, but one thing I can guarantee, if you never start, you'll never finish.
In a year, you could be 1/2-way there, or still debating if yo have the time.

I know that a reality of jobs that have shifts just can't make a specific meeting night, and people in unions generally have to trade flexibility for security, but you might be surprised what you can accomplish outside of meetings.

A vast majority of the proficiency flying my unit does happens during the week, outside of any meetings or formal training.  They are there, the plane is, so off they go.

You might be surprised if you checked around that others are available on off-shifts, too, and would love to play at 10 in the morning on a Tuesday.

All it takes is a couple of guys to get things going.

[flyguy06]

Most of my vacation time I burn on CAP. Also, there is a difference between a "hobby" and "volunteerism".
I have all respect and latitude for members who commit all they can, none for people who treat CAP like a social club.

I agree with that

[/quote]The reality is, CAP is not for everyone, nor should it be. Some people, or at certain times in your life, just can't afford the time to spend on CAP, which is fine.[/quote]

I agree with that
[/quote]People with inflexible schedules, family obligations, financial burdens, etc., may not be able to participate - that doesn't make it elitist, it just makes it what it is.  Or active members may need to take some time away.
That's fine, too.[/quote]

But the people that try but cant participate like they want to shouldnt be penalized because their priority is family.

[/quote]I can't argue, however, that the demographic of active CAP people is largely professionals with flexible schedules.  Flying is expensive, and we solicit pilots, it just stands to reason much of the air crew people will be financially stable. When your hobby coast $150 an hour, you have to get it somewhere...[/quote]

I think you just agreed with me that CAP is a hobby for some.

[/quote]
And though you may not get military-type benefits from your company, many do, or at least increased flexibility.
[/quote]

You mean that some companies are giving CAP members benefits like that of the military? I never knew that.

[/quote]There's also no rule that says to participate in ES you have to go to BMT, but if your time is limited, you have to make choices about where you spend it.[/quote]

Whats BMT?

And again, if it is limited, you have to accept that it will take you longer than others to progress and get quals - that's just how it works, but if you're not an Alpha-Hotel when you come out to missions, then no one will care.  My issue is generally with guys who never do any training, and then want to come and play in the "fun" stuff.

[/quote]As the Source would tell us, life is choice.[/quote]

? The Source? whats that?

[/quote]I don't watch sports, nor do I have cable at home, rare is the night that I plunk in front of the TV and veg.

Rare, also, is the night that I don't spend 2+ hours on the phone regarding CAP or hit the rack before about 1am.

There are months when I go nowhere but work, home, the airport, or the Navy base.  I have worn grooves in the streets and my truck can drive itself.[/quote]

Not trying to be funny here, but you seem to be extreme for CAP. Do you walk around in BDU pants with a radio to your side all day?

[/quote]My CAP involvement is prominent on my resume and when I interview for a job, my commitments are discussed from day one.

I have an amazingly understanding spouse who "gets it" and encourages my participation, but I also make sure to do my share around the house, and with the kids.[/quote]

Just out of curiousity what do you do for a living? And your wife do that you guys canspend so much time on CAP? Also you say you spend vacation time each year doing CAP stuff. What if you and your wife want to take a vacation or what if your child gets sick and you need some time off for that?

[/quote]This isn't a boast or a knock to anyone who doesn't do that, these are my choices - so I can participate at a higher ops temp than the "average" member, and when interesting or rare opportunities come up, I can go.
These are my choices. They bring responsibilities and obligations, but also afford unique opportunities.

These choices are not for everyone, or even most, but I would imagine that if you polled most of the high-speeds you know in CAP, whether cadet orientated or ES, you would find similar stories.

[/quote]

gain, this is going to sound bad but I promise you this is NOT a crack on you. I respect your commitment to CAP I wish Ihad that kind of lifestyle. But the way you describe it kinda makes me think you are a little fanatical about CAP. I knew this guy once inmy National Guard unit that was crazy about law enforcement. When ff duty he would wear kaki pants with a black T-shirt almost daily. He drove a dark colored Crown Vic and had a police scanner in it. But he wsnt a cop. I am a police oficer and we are trained to watch out for people liek that . Again,I am not saying you are like that. Your description just made me think of that guy.

[Eclipse]

(you really need to fix those quotes). (I'm not taking anything as a knock, we're just talking)

I'm an IT manager for an ad agency in Chicago.

There are many companies which extend military-level benefits to CAP people, especially with regards to time off for missions.  As a matter of fact, IAWG now requires employers to provide the same level as the guard (or thereabouts).   The last several jobs I have had have been very benevolent to the military in general, and I made sure they understood what CAP was from my first interview.

In most cases this is a voluntary "contribution to the cause" made by the company, and in many cases its just a matter of asking.  A lot of larger corporations encourage members to participate in community service, and CAP can qualify for that.

My wife and I have never been big "vacation" people, so this has never been an issue.  I love Las Vegas, but as I don't drink and don't really gamble, even that gets old after a while.  She travels a fair piece for business as well, so we trade off on who is getting more kitchen passes. When the kids are sick, I take PTO from work, work from home, or she does.

We have made any number of career and life choices that have allowed us flexibility - we don't get new cars every year, bought a house that could grow with us so our mortgage was manageable, and aren't particularly interested in name-brands or crap.  Though I will admit to a tech fetish and a Starbuck's habit which is
just this side of mania).  She works in town, and the kids are in day-care 10 minutes from her work - that's by design.  I commute by train, but still pick the kids up several nights a week, and they have about as much
time from me as they can tolerate.

I promise you I am not a "cop-groupie-type", charging around in an old police car, flashing my ID at crash sites.  I don't wear my BDU's to work, but I do wear a CAP ring on occasion, have a unit coffee mug on my desk, and talk about my activities when they come up.

I manage my CAP time like any other part-time gig or volunteer activity, but with at least one meeting a week, sometimes two, an encampment to plan, and heavy participation in ES at the state level, there just isn't much time for anything else.  A few weekends a year I teach motorcycle safety for the state, but that's about the only non-CAP thing I do outside of work or family stuff.

But what I >am< is a committed member who believes that if you accept a position of responsibility within an organization like CAP, it is your responsibility to step up more than the rank-and-file.  No one made me accept the commander's badge, but if I am not running full-out, then my members will not have the opportunities to participate at whatever level they can.

I have to put my unit's and the encampment's needs ahead of my own CAP career and personal CAP "fun stuff", and the only way to make both happen is to push even harder.  I absolutely have ZEE-RO tolerance for the unit CC's I know who are off "saving the world" and building their own ribbon racks, while their units
have no direction, and paperwork sits dusty on the shelf.  Its just not fair to the members.

IMHO, the POINT of CAP is to offer civilians a chance to serve their country in uniform, at whatever level
the respective member can give.  Once a week, once a quarter, once a year.  Service is service.  No problem there.

But we can't have it both ways - those of us on this board, myself included, who whine about getting no respect from the RealMilitary®, or other agencies, etc., have to accept that getting that respect will require participation and commitment close to a full-time job.

Even the most basic recreational sports teams have participation requirements, either you can be there or you can't.  No biggie.  But I don't know that its fair to call the people who can be there "elitist", just because their situation allows them to be there.

For the record, I still have an issue with comparing CAP to a hobby, but whatever on that.

And the Source, is the core component of the Matrix, and in a long-winded speech in the second movie, he explains how life is really just choice...

[Eclipse]

Here's a perfect example of what I mean by choice.

Every year when we are planning our calendar, the subject of football season, especially Superbowl Sunday, comes up and many members consider it blashpemy that I would schedule anything on those days.

I, personally, could care less about sports, its just a television show as far as I am concerned, and there are only so many Sundays.  You add in college games, and you lose 1/3 of the year.

Members who choose to stay home and watch football that day make a choice, they vote with their feet.  I have no problem with that at all, but by the same token I don't think its fanatical to try suggest some people couldn't care less about the game.

Nor should I get grief that something they "really want to do" was only offered during football season.
This is CAP, not a cafeteria, and we only have 52 weeks in a year.

Tape the game and come and play, or crack a beer and enjoy the afternoon.

Life is choice.  Own your choices and be happy.

And recognize what your choices even are, may not be the same as others.

[flyguy06]

WOW. I agree with you and the enthusiasm you have for ES is the same level of enthusiasm I have for CP You jaust the means t do it more than I do. I work for the Police department. We get 18 days of military leave per year. Heck, I drill at my Guard unit 48 days a year. So Icould never use CAP for any of that. My supersivor A very large female police captain) would not understand that I couldnt work my beat and protect the citizens of my county to do a volunteer task no matter how honorable that task may be.

But it is what it is.

[sparks]

WOW, this is some of the best exchanges of views I have seen recently and no flaming comments!

Everything Eclipse, flyguy06 etc. have identified a CAP member's dilemma. How does one balance all of life's requirements with CAP duties. I discovered that some compromises were necessary when my wife said I had to give more time at home. Eclipse's description of daily CAP activity sounded like mine. Between e-mails, phonecalls and paperwork it seemed like that was all I did, it even showed up at work.

Who knows what CAP will look like when the new regulations are released (20-1 etc.) but the unending challenge for all of us is to place members into positions they can actually perform to the competence level CAP needs and expects. It makes no sense to get someone qualified as a GTM who won't ever be available for missions. That same person, however, might be great at squadron administration work or an MLO.

With the membership numbers decreasing annually we need to keep everyone we can.

[Eclipse]

WOW. I agree with you and the enthusiasm you have for ES is the same level of enthusiasm I have for CP You jaust the means t do it more than I do. I work for the Police department. We get 18 days of military leave per year. Heck, I drill at my Guard unit 48 days a year. So Icould never use CAP for any of that. My supersivor A very large female police captain) would not understand that I couldnt work my beat and protect the citizens of my county to do a volunteer task no matter how honorable that task may be.

But it is what it is.

Hey, man - you're in the guard AND a cop.  Sounds to me like you're already doing more than your share in service to others.

Whatever you're doing in CAP is "above and beyond" from that perspective...

[flyguy06]

Thank you Eclipse, but the one thing I cant do inthe Guard or as a police officer is develop young peopke into being leaders of the future. Specifically military leaders. My mother used to tell me when I was a younger Senior Member that I worked so much in CAP that she wished it was a job that I could paid for. If it were I probably would do it. Thats why I have been following the other thread on this website about the aviation school in Wisconsin. If there were a way I could do CAP as a regular job I would. I live in Atlanta and I have even gone so far as to call Maxwell to see if they had any full time positions but they were mostly administrative. I woul dlove to do what John Desmarius (I think thats how you pronounce his name) does. I met this lady at Tuskegee Airport  that works full time at NHQ in Aerospace Ed (forgot her name) I would loev her job.

But righ tnow I cn only do what I can do. I am not afriand to admit that I wouldlike to be in a senior leadership osition in CAP wher eI can influence the national organization. But I dont want to have to sacrifice my personal family life or ecomonic life to do it.

[DNall]

A lot of this is semantics. I mean my 60hrs/mo versus someone else's 20, does that make me better than them? No way. Even if I measured that by the percentage of their free time & money they could give, would THAT make me better? No, and what the hell even asking such questions. What does ES active mean? 10 missions a year? We get 100 in my group & I probably get called for a third of those. I freakin hate ES. I was in love with the stuff early on, but between non-distress & weeks of looking for dead bodies, I just don't care anymore. So if I do 2-3 times more ES that you & have a few thousand hours of real-world mission experience, does that make me better than you? Nope. Who freakin cares. There's not an answer in any of that, just frustration that if you'd back up & look at the big picture, try to see it from the other guy's perspective, you'd realize it's meaningless.

You want a solution, I'll be happy to talk to you about that. I can see two big problems here.

1) ES training program is screwed all to hell. It's so incredibly frustrating for members to find their way thru the process & stay current. A paid agency wouldn't treat their members like that, a volunteer fire dept wouldn't treat their members like that, the red cross doesn't treat their members like that. This isn't a crucible thru which they pass to be worthy. This isn't something they must earn so they will get a reward. This is us needing to convert good will to properly trained people in the most efficient way possible so we can maximize the numbers out in the force. That means kill all elitism! Streamline & standardize the training into simple straight forward courses, present these on a regular basis, provide lots of organization & structure, lots of guidance for people trying to navigate this process. Fix that system & while you're at it, get in line with NIMS so we can do some really meaningful & life saving work.

2) Fix Sq operations. Three aspects to this:

A) We mostly meet on weeknights which is in itself a very limiting factor versus a one full wknd OR a couple Sats a month. There's just not enough time to get anything done. 15min opening, 15 more for closing, 5min to transition between activities... a third of your time ends up wasted, & half the schedule is non-critical training. The way we operate is very inefficient, but not so easy to change.

B) We're required to do all the same administrative load as a real active/guard/res Squadron, yet every one of them has a full-time administrator & paid trained staff officers, not to mention a real Sq is a company sized element, not 30-40 people on the books 15 active. As many reports & if you try to follow 20-1 or any staff structure model, you're in for trouble. It's working flat out just to keep your head above water. That's not realistic. What is realistic is calling these Platoon sized elements Flights & pinning a few together under a shared staff you call a Sq & charge with a streamlined version of that administrative load. Let everyone else focus on getting the missions done at the tactical level inside a vision handed to them by someone on the operational level based on the big picture defined by someone on the strategic/institutional level. That's how military structures are supposed to work. We're understaffed &8 trying to do too much at the bottom.

C) Member quality control & training is an issue. I won't get into it much, but it's disgraceful that CAP doesn't do more to prepare our people for the roles they have to face. It's no wonder we don't get strong leadership at each progressive level.

So... if you want to complain about the aspects so we can all better understand them, that's fine. If you want to talk theoretical solutions, that's fine too. Just not sure what's trying to be accomplished here.

[Eclipse]

What in the heck are you going on about?

He asked how some of us find the time, and I explained how >I< do it.

Nothing more.

Read what is written, not what you THINK it says. 

Our ES curriculm is simple, straightforward, and easy to learn.  It is focused on the tasks we ACTUALLY DO.

It only gets complicated when people try and read more into it then needs to be there, or add non-CAP requirments, etc. 

If you hate ES so much don't do it.  We'll manage somehow.

And if your unit is not presenting the CAP ES curriculum in simple, straightforward courses, on a regular basis, point the finger locally.  Because there is nothing wrong with the curriculum itself.

Administration is part of the game - want to play with a $300,00 airplane and have the USAF pay for the gas?  Fill out the forms.  Don't like it, move on.

[Eclipse]

2) Fix Sq operations. Three aspects to this:

A) We mostly meet on weeknights which is in itself a very limiting factor versus a one full wknd OR a couple Sats a month. There's just not enough time to get anything done. 15min opening, 15 more for closing, 5min to transition between activities... a third of your time ends up wasted, & half the schedule is non-critical training. The way we operate is very inefficient, but not so easy to change.

Its very easy to change. Who determines the ops temp of the local unit?  The Unit CC.  Want to meet on one weekend instead of a weeknight?  Do it.  There are no rules to this.

If your time is wasted, its because you are LETTING it be wasted

B) We're required to do all the same administrative load as a real active/guard/res Squadron, yet every one of them has a full-time administrator & paid trained staff officers, not to mention a real Sq is a company sized element, not 30-40 people on the books 15 active. As many reports & if you try to follow 20-1 or any staff structure model, you're in for trouble. It's working flat out just to keep your head above water. That's not realistic. What is realistic is calling these Platoon sized elements Flights & pinning a few together under a shared staff you call a Sq & charge with a streamlined version of that administrative load. Let everyone else focus on getting the missions done at the tactical level inside a vision handed to them by someone on the operational level based on the big picture defined by someone on the strategic/institutional level. That's how military structures are supposed to work. We're understaffed &8 trying to do too much at the bottom.

Fine - FIX it.  Push recruiting, get more people.  And for the record, the unit's administrative needs are roughly linear to the activity of the membership.  If the Unit CC chooses to allow hyper-active membership, but not spread the load of administration around, that's his problem, not a program problem.  the 1/2 on the books who don't do anything, also don't require any paperwork.

C) Member quality control & training is an issue. I won't get into it much, but it's disgraceful that CAP doesn't do more to prepare our people for the roles they have to face. It's no wonder we don't get strong leadership at each progressive level.

"CAP" doesn't prepare anybody any more then the "military" prepares anyone.  It is the Unit CC's who are responsible.  Period.  If they don't make it happen, no one will, and you reap what you sow.

Got a bunch of GOB pilots who won't do anything but fly, and complain all the time about no missions?
There's a simple tool for that.   Suggest they use is and that they be careful is doesn't hit them on the way out.

Membership is a PRIVILEGE.  The opportunities CAP affords require work and effort, and the benefits reaped are in direct proportion.

Sure, good-natured gnashing of teeth about the last stroke 12-28 form required in triplicate?  Of course.

But there is one thing that will never be the same as the RealMilitary®, anytime you want, 24x7/365
you can decide you've had enough, walk out the door and never look back.

[flyguy06]

A lot of this is semantics. I mean my 60hrs/mo versus someone else's 20, does that make me better than them? No way. Even if I measured that by the percentage of their free time & money they could give, would THAT make me better? No, and what the hell even asking such questions. What does ES active mean? 10 missions a year? We get 100 in my group & I probably get called for a third of those. I freakin hate ES. I was in love with the stuff early on, but between non-distress & weeks of looking for dead bodies, I just don't care anymore. So if I do 2-3 times more ES that you & have a few thousand hours of real-world mission experience, does that make me better than you? Nope. Who freakin cares. There's not an answer in any of that, just frustration that if you'd back up & look at the big picture, try to see it from the other guy's perspective, you'd realize it's meaningless.

You want a solution, I'll be happy to talk to you about that. I can see two big problems here.

1) ES training program is screwed all to hell. It's so incredibly frustrating for members to find their way thru the process & stay current. A paid agency wouldn't treat their members like that, a volunteer fire dept wouldn't treat their members like that, the red cross doesn't treat their members like that. This isn't a crucible thru which they pass to be worthy. This isn't something they must earn so they will get a reward. This is us needing to convert good will to properly trained people in the most efficient way possible so we can maximize the numbers out in the force. That means kill all elitism! Streamline & standardize the training into simple straight forward courses, present these on a regular basis, provide lots of organization & structure, lots of guidance for people trying to navigate this process. Fix that system & while you're at it, get in line with NIMS so we can do some really meaningful & life saving work.

2) Fix Sq operations. Three aspects to this:

A) We mostly meet on weeknights which is in itself a very limiting factor versus a one full wknd OR a couple Sats a month. There's just not enough time to get anything done. 15min opening, 15 more for closing, 5min to transition between activities... a third of your time ends up wasted, & half the schedule is non-critical training. The way we operate is very inefficient, but not so easy to change.

B) We're required to do all the same administrative load as a real active/guard/res Squadron, yet every one of them has a full-time administrator & paid trained staff officers, not to mention a real Sq is a company sized element, not 30-40 people on the books 15 active. As many reports & if you try to follow 20-1 or any staff structure model, you're in for trouble. It's working flat out just to keep your head above water. That's not realistic. What is realistic is calling these Platoon sized elements Flights & pinning a few together under a shared staff you call a Sq & charge with a streamlined version of that administrative load. Let everyone else focus on getting the missions done at the tactical level inside a vision handed to them by someone on the operational level based on the big picture defined by someone on the strategic/institutional level. That's how military structures are supposed to work. We're understaffed &8 trying to do too much at the bottom.

C) Member quality control & training is an issue. I won't get into it much, but it's disgraceful that CAP doesn't do more to prepare our people for the roles they have to face. It's no wonder we don't get strong leadership at each progressive level.

So... if you want to complain about the aspects so we can all better understand them, that's fine. If you want to talk theoretical solutions, that's fine too. Just not sure what's trying to be accomplished here.

DNall,
Your post is focused soley on ES. I am talking being a member of CAP as a whole. Cadet encamments, National Cadet Special Activities, Model Rocketry events. Thats what I am talking about when I say I wsh I could do more. Weekly meeting are fine. Some units meet monthly which Idont agree with.

[ZigZag911]

DNall has a valid point about the Byzantine complexity of our ES qualification system....it is far from straightforward or transparent.

He also has a good point about the administrative load placed on "squadrons" (which in USAF is a  command considered roughly equivalent to an army or marine battalion  -- in the Army that's multiple companies, anywhere from 600-1200 people).....when what we have is a platoon equivalent organization (USAF = 'flight', possibly even 'detachment'....small leadership element, low admin overhead).

No one disputes the necessity of accountability....the question here is at what level the formal, written reporting should be required. I would argue Group....and before anyone says there are wings that don't have them, I'd suggest consider establishing them to relieve the squadrons of administrative pressure....let thelocal unit squadrons concentrate  tactical & training functions in one or more of  the 3 programs.

Also, lordmonar is right about needing to pick and choose......the average member can't give a lot of 'quality time' to everything....I still think every officer needs a basic grounding in all 3 missions.

[Eclipse]

...I still think every officer needs a basic grounding in all 3 missions.

I'm with you there...

[RiverAux]

How is our system not straightforward or transparent?  For every single specialty there is a list of tasks.  For each task there are several pages in a task guide that tell you exactly how to do that task.  Then, that same task guide tells you exactly what you will need to demonstrate and how it will be done to become qualified in that task. 

If that isn't enough, there are some big texts that provide additional background information on the job. 

Seems easy to me. 

[DNall]

Your post is focused soley on ES. I am talking being a member of CAP as a whole.

When I say I don't have a non-CAP wknd in six months & work 60hrs/mo, that's mostly cadet related. I don't conduct ES training anymore, just go on the missions now & then when there's no one else & so my cadets can get some exposure. I've made larger than average contributions in ES & AE at times in my CAP career & I still help with those aspects of the org on a back burner level, but now & for most of my time I've been cadet focused. I'm getting tierd of that at the unit level now. Id' probably move exclusively to a Gp/Wg level position if I were staying put, but I'm not & I don't know what kind of role I'll be able to or want to play after I get done.

DNall has a valid point about the Byzantine complexity of our ES qualification system....it is far from straightforward or transparent.

He also has a good point about the administrative load placed on "squadrons" (which in USAF is a  command considered roughly equivalent to an army or marine battalion  -- in the Army that's multiple companies, anywhere from 600-1200 people).....when what we have is a platoon equivalent organization (USAF = 'flight', possibly even 'detachment'....small leadership element, low admin overhead).

No one disputes the necessity of accountability....the question here is at what level the formal, written reporting should be required. I would argue Group....and before anyone says there are wings that don't have them, I'd suggest consider establishing them to relieve the squadrons of administrative pressure....let thelocal unit squadrons concentrate  tactical & training functions in one or more of  the 3 programs.

You're required to do the same number of reports regardless if your Sq has 5 or 500 members. Some of the paperwork we have is far too complicated, and everything from electronic forms (scanning attachments) to jacked up eServices is a PITA that frustrates, overpowers, & drives away people. More then that though, it wastes thousands upon thousands of volunteer hours that should be mission focused. Th elocal unit should be gunning the mission & the next echelon up should be supplying PAO, Recruiting, supply, logistics, transportation, PD, CP, AE, Chap, etc. Your local meetings should be focused on ES teams or a cadet flight both of which should be simply executing a plan handed to them by the staff officer at the next level. That next level should meet once or twice a month with people from all those other units sharing resources to fill those staff jobs & do one set of reports to Wg. That's much better streamlined use of resources. I'll jump right on that just as soon as someone's dumb enough to make me wing CC.

The ES training system is horrible. It's frustrating to a lot of people & on the individual rather than the system. It's very inefficient use of resources, that doesn't get us all the training we need & requires some stuff we don't really use, mainly though it's jsut frustrating & drives people off after taking so incredibly long to get them qual'd & on to advanced quals.

[Eclipse]

Th elocal unit should be gunning the mission & the next echelon up should be supplying PAO, Recruiting, supply, logistics, transportation, PD, CP, AE, Chap, etc. Your local meetings should be focused on ES teams or a cadet flight both of which should be simply executing a plan handed to them by the staff officer at the next level. That next level should meet once or twice a month with people from all those other units sharing resources to fill those staff jobs & do one set of reports to Wg. That's much better streamlined use of resources. I'll jump right on that just as soon as someone's dumb enough to make me wing CC.

Yep, agree 100% - which is why this is what my unit / Group is doing today.

If your Wing/Group/Unit are not, hold THEM accountable, not CAP as a whole.

The ES training system is horrible. It's frustrating to a lot of people & on the individual rather than the system. It's very inefficient use of resources, that doesn't get us all the training we need & requires some stuff we don't really use, mainly though it's jsut frustrating & drives people off after taking so incredibly long to get them qual'd & on to advanced quals.

Again, just because your local units are having issues, do not assume you speak for the organization as a whole.

With even the barest initiative, a new member can go from slick-sleeve to GTM3 in 6 months easily, including missions.  Same goes for aircrew.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the training being confusing.

[DNall]

Th elocal unit should be gunning the mission & the next echelon up should be supplying PAO, Recruiting, supply, logistics, transportation, PD, CP, AE, Chap, etc. Your local meetings should be focused on ES teams or a cadet flight both of which should be simply executing a plan handed to them by the staff officer at the next level. That next level should meet once or twice a month with people from all those other units sharing resources to fill those staff jobs & do one set of reports to Wg. That's much better streamlined use of resources. I'll jump right on that just as soon as someone's dumb enough to make me wing CC.

Yep, agree 100% - which is why this is what my unit / Group is doing today.

If your Wing/Group/Unit are not, hold THEM accountable, not CAP as a whole.

Gps don't do the staff work for Sqs, they may help you out if you're in a jam, & they try to run Gp level projects that take some pressure off you, but their purpose is regulatory. They are there to mitigate teh Wg's span of control cause there are too many units too spread out. And the Wg exists to make sure you're folling regs & doing everythign required of you, while they try to frum soemthign up w/ the state. They are not there to do the work for you.

The thing is, our local units are required to do far too much support work for far too small an organization. You don't need 10 coaches on a basketball team. What happens at locl unit level, that's enlisted & tactical level work. You don't need 15 staff officers. You need to focus on the job & nothing else. You should then have 5 units give or take strung together to share resources as one Sq. 20% of the work spread on a staff drawn from 5 times the number of people. That's how it needs to be done.

It is very much a CAP wide problem that the reporting, administrative, & logistics requirements on me require more staff that I have or can possibly get, and ever once of energy is devoted to keeping our head above water on that just so the unit can stay alive, and no time is left to focus on ES or CP. It's just burning people out for nothing & wasting time. That's terrible mgmt. I run my company that way I'd be out of business.

The ES training system is horrible. It's frustrating to a lot of people & on the individual rather than the system. It's very inefficient use of resources, that doesn't get us all the training we need & requires some stuff we don't really use, mainly though it's jsut frustrating & drives people off after taking so incredibly long to get them qual'd & on to advanced quals.

Again, just because your local units are having issues, do not assume you speak for the organization as a whole.

With even the barest initiative, a new member can go from slick-sleeve to GTM3 in 6 months easily, including missions.  Same goes for aircrew.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the training being confusing.[/quote]
This is not a matter of local units. Don't assume that because you have an organized infrastructure that it works that way everywhere.

We have stuff scheduled, but it's the responsibility tof the member to figure out what they need & get it done in the limited offerings at the Sq or Gp level & make sure it's recorded for credit. Anything past that is someone holding their hand & that's more work on this scale than anyone has time to do.

People should be hooked into a unified single source training program that tracks training for them in a user friendly way. The whole online tracking of tasks is kind of a waste of time. What we have, both online & in real life, is as far from user-friendly as possible. What we've done is take same concept of throwing the a copy of regs at a new staff officer & telling them to figure it out. The responsibility to get qualified should never be on the student. They should never have any control in teh process at all. The training should not be a few things here & there as you feel like it. It should be one formal organized course from start to finish.

[flyguy06]

well, in GA, Groups mainly consist of one peson, thr Gp Commander. There is no real Group staff. They dont meet or anything. The Group CC may ask somone in a squadron to be for example the Group cadet programs officer, but he satys in his assigned squadron and really just relays information fom Wing tothe other units when he can. WHat I am saying is their is no dedicated "Tats all I do" Group staff other than the Group Commander

[ZigZag911]

well, in GA, Groups mainly consist of one peson, thr Gp Commander. Ther eis no ral Grop staff. They dont meet or anything. The Group CC may ask somone in a squadron to be for example the Group cadet programs officer, but he satys in his assigned squadron and really just relays information fom Wing tothe other units when he can. WHat I am saying is their is no dedicated "Tats all I do" Group staff other than the Group Commander

I understand...for this system to work, some of the more administratively oriented squadron officers would need to help form a group staff....the point is that one or two 'subject matter experts' would be preparing a single consolidated report on any given subject as required.

[Dragoon]

well, in GA, Groups mainly consist of one person, thr Gp Commander. There is no real Group staff. They dont meet or anything. The Group CC may ask somone in a squadron to be for example the Group cadet programs officer, but he satys in his assigned squadron and really just relays information fom Wing tothe other units when he can. WHat I am saying is their is no dedicated "Tats all I do" Group staff other than the Group Commander

Bingo, and this relates to a large number of other threads on this board.

People have a (natural) desire to remove all the "BS" and "red tape" from the squadrons and let higher HQ do all that for them.

The problem is WE CAN'T GET ENOUGH GOOD PEOPLE TO WORK AT HIGHER HQ!

Why?  Simple.  Squadrons are more fun.

I absolutely agree that CAP would run better if squadrons didn't have to worry about admin burdons.  It's the right thing to do.

But unless someone's going to float us $20 million or so to hire wing and group staffs, we're going to have to come up with more incentives to get the talent OUT of the squadrons and INTO group and wing.  So they can do all this hard but necessary overhead work.