The Future of UDF...?

[Major Carrales]

There are many who are calling the future of UDF into question.  With advances in ELT technology and continued advancement in GPS it seems that call outs are 0300 hrs to go to some GOD forsaken little airstrip my be numbers. 

DNALL has expressed the date of 2009.  This got me thinking...

1) There are those that seem to the that CAP's UDF is specifically for false alarms.

2) UDF and its purpose will have to evolve.

It is from here I would like to solicit speculations...

I see UDF as becoming more of a tool of a search than a search itself.

For example, and I know there may be issues with this at current.

Let say a aircraft goes down in an isolated wooded area or other area of difficult under developed status.  Could an aircrew drop an ELT-like beacon from an aircraft to assist in guiding a ground team to that position? Thus a gorund team woudl have to have a LEADER, a team memebers and a UDF member as well.

In a world were an ELT search of the type we do now would better be serviced by a phone call to the aircraft's owner or airport manager from some GROUP LEVEL OFFICER or even directly from AFRCC...would such a skill be possible in the manner I described?

If not, propose sepcultation of the future of UDF...

[RiverAux]

If the aircrew has spotted the crash it will be quicker for them to transmit the coordinates to the ground team who can input them in their GPS and go to those coordinates.

DFing will continue to be in the toolbox.

Personally, I think there is good potential for a loss of non-distress ELT work to be replaced by distress PLB calls if CAP plays their cards right with the locals. 

[Chris Jacobs]

Thus a gorund team woudl have to have a LEADER, a team memebers and a UDF member as well.

You wouldn't have a UDF person on a ground team.  Any ways a ground team member has to be able to track an ELT as part of their SQTR.  You would not dispatch a UDF member into the woods.

[lordmonar]

Thus a gorund team woudl have to have a LEADER, a team memebers and a UDF member as well.

You wouldn't have a UDF person on a ground team.  Any ways a ground team member has to be able to track an ELT as part of their SQTR.  You would not dispatch a UDF member into the woods.

The U in UDF stands for URBAN....once you leave the URBAN area you are what NIMS calls a WSAR...wilderness search and rescue with ELT capabilities.

Second...if a search aircraft got eyes on target...why drop an ELT?  Just give me the GPS coordinates...I'll plot it on my map...and I'm there!

[Major Carrales]

Thus a gorund team woudl have to have a LEADER, a team memebers and a UDF member as well.

You wouldn't have a UDF person on a ground team.  Any ways a ground team member has to be able to track an ELT as part of their SQTR.  You would not dispatch a UDF member into the woods.

The U in UDF stands for URBAN....once you leave the URBAN area you are what NIMS calls a WSAR...wilderness search and rescue with ELT capabilities.

Second...if a search aircraft got eyes on target...why drop an ELT?  Just give me the GPS coordinates...I'll plot it on my map...and I'm there!

I guess that, living in South Texas, the term URBAN make mores sense to me as a Pope than as an environment.  I can't think why they even call it UDF when most times, in my experience, these things happen at those small County Airports that are RURAL.  I would ore correctly just call it a DF team.

In any case, I'm only speculating on how UDF might be used in the future.

[isuhawkeye]

DF cant be going to far if FEMA has resource typed them

[SarDragon]

The definition of rural, WRT UDF team activities, for most folks living in Texas seems to be very different from rural here in California. IIRC, much of Texas is flat, or at least has more gradual elevation changes. Here, much of the state has frequent and significant elevation changes, coupled with dense vegetation.  We have a much more limited UDF working area because of this. For us, it's much more a case of where you can drive than how many people are living in the area.

[Major Carrales]

The definition of rural, WRT UDF team activities, for most folks living in Texas seems to be very different from rural here in California. IIRC, much of Texas is flat, or at least has more gradual elevation changes. Here, much of the state has frequent and significant elevation changes, coupled with dense vegetation.  We have a much more limited UDF working area because of this. For us, it's much more a case of where you can drive than how many people are living in the area.

Thanks Dave,

You are correct...much of our land is flat and elevation is gradual if present at all.  URBAN, to many in my area, would be something like Houston, the DFW Metroplex, San Antonio and the like.  Truely, limited areas in regard to the rest of the State.  I might consider Corpus Christi Proper to be somewhat URBAN but drive for 10 or 15 minutes (like towards Calallen or just past the Southside) and you are in COTTON COUNTRY.

Kinsgville, Texas and Alice, Texas fit no definition of URBAN I can think of, unless you count a RAILROAD as an URBAN FIXTURE.

I should very much like to visit California some day.  My wife has some relatives there, near San Jose if I am not mistaken.

[DNall]

The new ELTs should kill most non-distress issues, and distress calls also as LE will respond to the GPS & search the area. It's when you have a confirmed missing target & no signal (virtually assured they're dead) that CAP will still be involved in Search ops.

I'm glad you got some knowledgable posters reponding on this one, cause I'm relaly not an expert, just able to listen to others & read the FEMA site is all.

Look at the bottom of this one for WSAR which is what our GTM3 is going to have to meet: http://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nims/sar_jobtitle_111806.pdf This is the one you'll see me harping on. There's a lot of people in CPA that can & would be happy to meet these standards. On the other hand a lot of people are going to freak out & our retention will look bad for a while.

This one will show you the capabilities guide for aircrew, UDF, & WSAR (aircrew & UDF almost seeming to be written for CAP). The credentialing isn't written yet for fixed-wing aircrew or UDF, but if you'll look at the WSAR capabilities page in this doc & compare it to the above PDF on what is required to be a team member on a team with those capabilites, you can see why it's expected to be a challenge.

By the way if you're not understanding that type I-III/IV maybe someone else can explain it better than me, but Type I is a Katrina lik efederal multi-state incident. TypeIII is basically your standard 3am ELT mission.

[sardak]

The definitions of incident types are in this thread
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1285.0

A "typical" 3 AM ELT mission is a Type V or IV incident.  Even a missing airplane search may not expand into a Type III incident.  Factors determining incident complexity include incident staffing requirements, duration and how many agencies besides CAP become involved.

Also, keep in mind that resource typing and incident type or complexity are not directly related.  Even Type I and II incidents use Type IV, V and "higher" resources.  The common wildland fire engines are Type 6 and 7, and one can't fight a Type I wildland fire without them.

As for UDF roles, all that happens in 2009 is that the Sarsat system stops monitoring and processing 121.5 signals.  There is no requirement for general aviation in the US to replace its "old generation" ELTs with 406 MHz "new generation" beacons.

Beacon registration for the 406 MHz beacons (ELT, PLB, EPIRB) is nowhere near 100%.  So the plan of just calling the phone number to resolve an incident hasn't come to pass.

Old or new, someone still has to go locate the beacons.  Not all of the 406 MHz beacons have GPS capability.  Even with GPS,  the coordinates only get you to the airport or vicinity of the beacon (maybe).  Close in DF work will still be required.  Who goes out to find them is still based on the MOU/MOA between a state and AFRCC.  In most states that is CAP for ELTs.

As for the 121.5 beacons, the system will revert to the pre-Sarsat days.  Reports from overflying aircraft and ground stations will reach AFRCC.  Someone is going to have figure out where they are, and find them if necessary.  That will be still be CAP's job for the most part.

Will the number of missions decrease with time? Possibly, but I don't see it as doom and gloom for UDF or ground teams.

Mike

[DNall]

General Aviation will follow after after they lose sat support. They just don't want to punish the little guys. EPIRBs already have mandatory changed, & they were a percentage of our missions. I don't know about elsewhere, but maybe as much as 40% or more here on the coast.

406 beacons have over 80% registration rate, some of the rest of that is not yet installed, a little more is still tracable thru the installers. 75% of non-distress missions won't happen anymore. Of the remaining 25%, the cops are going to run GPS on a bunch. The probability of a distress situation after all that is pretty low, as will be the financial latitude left to spend. When you get to that point, it's just not cost efficient to maintain a $100million fleet of 535 planes, 20mil in radios, 25mil a year budget, etc... it's just not worth it. Maybe a quarter of that, but there's a size point where CAP can't operate below & the resource pool is so small it's useless.

[RiverAux]

You know some states have laws requiring aircraft emergency beacons.  I wonder how they are handling this switchover? 

[lordmonar]

You know some states have laws requiring aircraft emergency beacons.  I wonder how they are handling this switchover? 

You mean above and beyond the FAA requirement?  I thought all aircraft (not gliders and ultra lights) that flew farther than 50 miles had to have an ELT.

Am I mistaken or are we talking about two different things?

[RiverAux]

Nope, we're talking about ELTs being required by state law.  Why the states have the requirements, I don't know, but they're there.  I have no idea how widespread it is though.

[badger bob]

The U in UDF stands for URBAN....once you leave the URBAN area you are what NIMS calls a WSAR...wilderness search and rescue with ELT capabilities.

I don't disagree with the dictionary definition,but do disagree with the practical definition. A urban team by practice must be able to mount their search vehicle mounted. Teams must have two or more and have the vehicle available for extended communications. A urban team can drive to a very rural airport and search for a ELT. A urban team could drive into the mountains or even into the National Forest for a "hasty" vehicle mounted search- but should never leave the immediate vicinity of the vehicle until reinforcements arrive. Food, clothing, and shelter are less of an issue with a "urban" ground team because we assume they can drive to the Holiday Inn at night or to McDonald's when they are hungry. A Urban team could have been directed by an aircraft to the lost party in the mountains of Oregon. Two Urban teams of two members each can do vehicle mounted hasty searches; but then join into one ground team to go off road.

A full ground team must be large enough to leave at least one person with the vehicles or base camp to provide support and communications, must be able to operate away from the vehicle overnight if needed and carry their own food and water.  That could be in the middle of Central Park in a "urban" area or in the very flat wheat fields of Kansas.

Its not where you are but how you are used.

[Chris Jacobs]

I think the key thing to the urban or non urban team is what kind of roads you are on.  Are you on an improved road, or are you on the old logging road in the middle of no where that no one had driven on in the last 5 years.

[Major Lord]

Remember too that GPS equipped ELT's only send good coordinates if they can acquire good GPS LOS to satellites. Also,If for some reason, your crashed aircraft is not in showroom new shape, but is instead upside down in the trees, and you  have  fuel running down your neck ( like pee does on a sloth) your 406 signal may be obstructed. Tree growth, foliage and snow absorb UHF energy like a senior member absorbs beer. That tiny litle 121 .5 beacon is how we are going to find your sorry butt! As far as sending UDF members into the woods, there are a few I could think of to send on solo missions.....

[Dragoon]

I've always wondered about the registration of 406 GPS's.  For example, when I sell the plane, are there safeguards to make sure the GPS registration gets moved to the new guy?  Or when I move or change my phone number, how do they know?

I'm concerned that as the 406's propogate, there will be a lot of cases of "we can't contact the registered owner, so we have to treat it as distress. Call CAP!"

[lordmonar]

I've always wondered about the registration of 406 GPS's.  For example, when I sell the plane, are there safeguards to make sure the GPS registration gets moved to the new guy?  Or when I move or change my phone number, how do they know?

I'm concerned that as the 406's propogate, there will be a lot of cases of "we can't contact the registered owner, so we have to treat it as distress. Call CAP!"

That may happen.....but compared to right now...all we got is...there is a beacon at so-and-so coordinates...call CAP!

Even if we run into the problem of AFRCC calling the registered owner and he is not home or he sold the plane...there will be a lot of times when we do get a hold of the owner who says...NO...my plane's is not flying right now...it must be a false alarm...I'll go and turn it off.

We will still have a reduction of the number of ramp checks we will have to do.

[Dragoon]

No doubt.  But that's still a far cry from "CAP will be out of the ELT business in a few years!"