CAP-USAF moves

[RADIOMAN015]

Aligning CAP-USAF with ROTC/JROTC will have to help co-missions for the cadet and aerospace education programs- as well as increase flying hours for orientation flights.

I have a feeling we will see more activities generated by this move.

Rumor has it that starting next summer (2010) CAP members (Senior Members) will be asked to volunteer at the ROTC Field Training events.  Much like the Coast Guard Auxiliary does for the Coast Guard at their "basic training".  It may be VSAF, or it may be CAP (with all our uniforms and bling).

We will see more joint activities with this side of the Air Force.  Some will like it, some will hate it, but I figure that anything we can do for the AF is part of our mission.

Hmm, well I think most senior members already have enough commitments within CAP & their personal lives without having to take on added responsibilities for assisting at ROTC Field Training .  There's an entire active AF (how many staffers do you think there's at the Holm Center?)  that can readily help out at those functions.   Also realistically I think the AFROTC program probably could help out the Junior AFROTC program more.  Right now CAP's involvement is with giving the JAFRTOC cadets orientation flights.

We in CAP need to stick with OUR mission statement.  Lets not allow mission creep into it, because quite frankly we don't have the active member resources to support much more

Perhaps the motto should be "it's not what we can do for you (e.g. ROTC) but what you can do for us!!!"
RM

[RiverAux]

We in CAP need to stick with OUR mission statement.  Lets not allow mission creep into it, because quite frankly we don't have the active member resources to support much more

Expanding your potential mission opportunities can also expand your potential membership base.  Half my CG Aux unit has no real intersest in going out on boats but thanks to the multitudes of potential tasks they can do as a CG Auxie, there are plenty of opportunities for them to help the Coast Guard. 

Now, there is a potential tipping point where you can have too many missions (and CG Aux may actually be near there).  But CAP certainly isn't close that that and in my opinion our mission set is too limited. 

If the rumored task is basically having CAP seniors do the sort of activities they do at CAP encampment, no I don't see very many stepping up to do similar work for ROTC. 

[arajca]

We do not fly our aircraft enough as it is....and we have in no way shape or form have come close to over flying our Cadet O-ride budget.

Speak for yourself. COWG has already overflown our O-flight budget and most of a supplemental with the possibility of another supplement being made available.

[Gunner C]

WIWA CC, I never saw the money from the CAP cadet O-flight program going idle.  AAMOF, I was usually complaining that my unit wasn't getting its fair share.

I personally wasn't much of a fan of ROTC O-flights.  The ROTC detachment at the local university frankly wasn't very professional in its efforts to ensure the cadets were showing up at the hour appointed in the plan, wasting my pilot's time (usually a weekend).  They were supposed to have simultaneous membership in CAP, but that fell into disuse.  Yeah, it was flight hours for the A/C, but it was wasted hours for our folks.  Hopefully, this wasn't the program nationally.

[BillB]

I wonder if being closer to AFROTC will result in a regulation change? By this I mean the restriction against AFROTC/AFJROTC being passengers in CAP vehicles.

[BrandonKea]

I wonder if being closer to AFROTC will result in a regulation change? By this I mean the restriction against AFROTC/AFJROTC being passengers in CAP vehicles.

I think there's still an insurance issue there.

[Major Carrales]

The main difference between CAP and ROTC is that CAP Cadets can actually play a "significant" role in ES activities.  For many, this fact attracts them to CAP.

I always thought the main difference was ROTC cadets were enrolled in a program to train future Commssioned Officers.

My bad...I meant JROTC.  Also, the above statements were aimed at Cadets.

CAP has always, in my experience, been for volunteers that wish to serve in a unique way limited by family, career and the like while ROTC proper are those seeking to form a career in the Armed Services as Commissioned officer.

Apples and Oranges...simply put, if CAP..."wastes your time," most respectfully, it is time for you to leave.  If it is not enough USAF for you, then please enlist in AFROTC or in the USAF or a Reserve/National Guard component.

[BrandonKea]

CAP has always, in my experience, been for volunteers that wish to serve in a unique way limited by family, career and the like while ROTC proper are those seeking to form a career in the Armed Services as Commissioned officer.

Apples and Oranges...simply put, if CAP..."wastes your time," most respectfully, it is time for you to leave.  If it is not enough USAF for you then please enlist in AFROTC or in the USAF or a Reserve/National Guard component.

:clap: :clap: :clap: Smartest thing I've heard in a long time.

[Spike]

Apples and Oranges...simply put, if CAP..."wastes your time," most respectfully, it is time for you to leave.  If it is not enough USAF for you, then please enlist in AFROTC or in the USAF or a Reserve/National Guard component.

Is that the common feeling here at CAPTALK.  If you want to see CAP more military, then you should just go join the military??

[Major Carrales]

Apples and Oranges...simply put, if CAP..."wastes your time," most respectfully, it is time for you to leave.  If it is not enough USAF for you, then please enlist in AFROTC or in the USAF or a Reserve/National Guard component.

Is that the common feeling here at CAPTALK.  If you want to see CAP more military, then you should just go join the military??

The idea here is that I am a teacher, some are policemen, others in here in all lines of work.  CAP is a volunteer force that, in most states, means you don't get paid for time you take off of work.  That said, people come out to serve in the face of Hurricanes, Fires and the like.  The job still gets gone, and done well, for what is the least expensive form and from people with the heart of volunteers.

CAP is a place where working citizens take time out of their busy lives to serve in a tradition dating back to 1942 and a spirit going back to APRIL 19, 1775.  "Citizen Airmen," in the most true and literal since of the phrase.

That is what I am saying.  We can have the desired professionalism within the parameters of what is possible to the volunteers.

Now, y'all can put any words in my "mouth" you want, but that is what I mean...and that was what I meant.

[ZigZag911]

Gunner C, most of our funding is directly appropriated for CAP, through USAF....there is little "vying" for funding from AU?AETC 3 star....personnel for CAP-USAF might be another question,a s well as the back channel help a general officer can provide (speaking of the O7 @ Holm)

[Gunner C]

All funding needs an "advocate" with the next higher echelon.  If anyone thinks that we get bucks just because it's the right thing to do, then there needs to be some military/government funding education here. 

Fact is, our level of funding, our CAP-USAF military and civilian slots, and a bunch more comes our way because we have advocates with the SECAF and congress.  The better we are represented in the military, the better off we will be.  Frankly, we did much better when CAP/CC was an AD AF 2-star.  The more general officers we have standing behind us, along with more congress critters on the legislative side, the better protected we'll be.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well just found this on the AF official website:
http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123155008

Of special concern is the following.......".........................

For example, emergency services is a lot of what CAP does, and the realignment allows CAP-USAF to offer that training to Reserve Officer Training Corps, and Junior ROTC students," he said. "In one sense the move will be fairly seamless in nature, but in another sense, CAP-USAF will now have "one-star advocacy" on a regular basis. Also, being under the Holm Center will make it easier to coordinate with ROTC and Officer Training School."
........................................"

BTW this is the new commader of CAP-USAF speaking, and I would assume that this is "his vision" of what CAP should be doing to support the other functions under the Holm Center.

There's nothing that has been presented to the National Board about this & hopefully they will take a very close look at the volunteer resources that really are available (or I should say are willing to be available) to support this "idea".    I personally do not believe overall there's enough CAP volunteer resources to provide ES training orientation to JRROTC & ROTC personnel, just for the sake of training when these personnel will not be available for actual missions.

RM

[Always Ready]

^+1

I'm not going to make any major judgments about the move for a little while...for adjustment purposes. But I will say this, I am concerned about some of comments in the article RADIOMAN015 posted. I've heard a lot a rumors, even rumors from friends/trusted acquaintances that are AFROTC cadre (not cadets), but I'm hoping they are just rumors (AFROTC is a HUGE rumor mill, especially when it comes to field training). I don't want to see CAP become support for the Holm Center. We (CAP and the Holm Center) both have things to offer each other, but our missions and purposes are different. Their job is to bring people into the AF and our job is to act as a gap-filler for the AF and other agencies.

[PHall]

The National Board, or even the Board of Governors has absolutely no say in where HQ CAP-USAF is slotted.
CAP-USAF is an Air Force organization and is not part of CAP Inc.

How we are used by the Air Force is stated in several Air Force Policy Documents and Air Force Instructions (AFPD 10-27, AFI 10-2701 and CAP-USAFI 10-2701).

The Air Force would have to change those AFPD/AFI's to change how they use us. Which can be done with just the stroke of the Secretary of the Air Force's pen.

[es_g0d]

Civil Air Patrol is the 4th component of the total force.  Active, Reserve, Guard, and Auxiliary. 

In this light, I don't really see a need for a "CAP-USAF" organization whatsoever.  Involvement and interface with the rest of the Air Force should be at the same component level.  That would be a real put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is move.

Putting (or in this case, continuing to place) any unit with an operational mission under Air University -- at any level -- is a mistake.

[Ned]

Putting (or in this case, continuing to place) any unit with an operational mission under Air University -- at any level -- is a mistake.

Unless, of course, one of your primary missions is to train cadets.

(The largest mission in CAP in terms of personnel and manhours.)

Then it could make sense.

[BillB]

I disagree totally with es god. He should have been a member when CAP-USAF ran the program with a general grade officer as Commander, CAP-USAF. What I see lacking from CAP-USAF is the leadership that was in existance during that period which now the CAP Corporation now assumes.  And in my opinion and that of many others the Corporation does not provide the leadership. Rather is more interested in protecting the Corporation without consideration of the membership of the organization. Pilots drop out due to the hoops they have to jump through, cadets drop out because the program isn't "fun".
One thing needed is to reinstate the Wing level USAF-CAP Liaison staff. We're talking of a total of 106 AD personnel. This would resolve a portion of the politics of the organization and provide a clear view of the missions of CAP

[FW]

I'm no historian however; I do have a pretty decent recollection of CAP since the late 60s.  IMHO, except for the availability of airlift and the dearth of modern aircraft, relatively decent vehicles and a different demographic of senior member and cadet, not much has changed at the squadron level.  Members still worry about what to schedule for a meeting, cadets complain about getting promoted and, if they will have time for encampment or, which special activity to attend.  It really didn't matter if CAP was "commanded" by a 1 star AF officer or, the wing had an AF Col. as a LO.  In fact, if I remember correctly, we had more reports to deal with in the 70s and 80s than today.  The difference being.... no body cared about them as:  no one at national really looked at em...

So, today it's different at NHQ.  We are held to professional standards and are actually accountable to the federal govt. and the taxpayer.  Gee, and now CAP-USAF has a 1 star to report to.  Well, anyone ever hear of the "span of control"?  Oh, and BTW, we have an active 2 star sitting on the BOG.  He just happens to be the 1st AF/CC.... Oh, and isn't the BOG the body that governs CAP?  They are accountable to Congress and the President.  CAP-USAF only has oversight on the spending of our grant money.  Let me say again.... CAP-USAF only has oversight on the way we spend the money we get from the taxpayer.  Everything else comes from other sources. 
I think it's worth repeating just 1 more way.... CAP-USAF only has oversight functions of our appropriated money and, the property (stuff) we buy with it.  Oh, yes, they do coordinate with the "Auxiliary" office at the Pentagon and, do forward our requests on uniform changes (this keeps Col Ward very busy ), and yes they do manage what's left of the CAP-RAP program.

With CAP-USAF's change of reporting structure we do have another general officer in our "rooting" section.  This is a good thing.  Also, CAP-USAF has a more direct line of communication with AFROTC and JAFROTC.  IMHO, this is a good thing.

Now, as to "leadership",   I won't get into the quality of the leadership of CAP however, every commander, from the flight to region, has more and better resources available to perform the job, now, than at any time since CAP-USAF was under the Continental Air Command.  Well, except for the availability of airlift.  But, then again, there is a war going on. 

We all complain of how things are and how things were better "back in the day".  I think we have it better now than at any time since the 50s. Better resources, better activities for our cadets, new and emerging missions and, higher respect for our organization at all levels. 

The "blogs" and CAPTALK are great avenues of discussion and opinion however, they are not official communications and, there is "spin".  It is our responsibility to take this "information" and figure out everything pertinent to make proper decisions if so desired.  I'd rather go flying.

OK, I feel better now.

[RADIOMAN015]

I think it's worth repeating just 1 more way.... CAP-USAF only has oversight functions of our appropriated money and, the property (stuff) we buy with it.  Oh, yes, they do coordinate with the "Auxiliary" office at the Pentagon and, do forward our requests on uniform changes (this keeps Col Ward very busy ), and yes they do manage what's left of the CAP-RAP program.

With CAP-USAF's change of reporting structure we do have another general officer in our "rooting" section.  This is a good thing.  Also, CAP-USAF has a more direct line of communication with AFROTC and JAFROTC.  IMHO, this is a good thing.

The "blogs" and CAPTALK are great avenues of discussion and opinion however, they are not official communications and, there is "spin".  It is our responsibility to take this "information" and figure out everything pertinent to make proper decisions if so desired.  I'd rather go flying.

OK, I feel better now.

I'd suggest that each member READ CAREFULLY what Col Ward's SPECIFIC remarks were at that change of command type ceremony & judge for yourself the implications for CAP

http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123155008

I might add at this year's wing conference the new Regional AF LO Chief was apologizing that he & is staff couldn't get around more to visit the wings (states) under their supervision due to budgetary travel restraints.  I would assume that there similiar budget restraints  in JR & Regular ROTC programs.   We will have to see what synergy this will bring to the programs.

There's 896 JR ROTC school locations & 144 Regular ROTC college locations.  On the cadet program side, there has been use of regular college level ROTC members & staff to assist at leadership type training events in our wing.  May not be a bad thing overall for the cadet program side of the mix. 

Again, IMHO the whole point of the discussion is what is one's opinion is of the reorganization & remarks made by the CAP-USAF Commander & what is the implication for the membership.    I sure subsequent future events will either confirm or dismiss some members concerns posted here!
RM