Undercover lawyers

[RiverAux]

A proposed regulation for CAP legal officers is available here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R111_001_draft_F128ECEC6CCCA.pdf

I find this provision somewhat troubling (emphasis mine):

8. Uniforms and Insignia:
a. Legal officers are not required to wear a uniform unless required by a specific activity.  When the uniform is worn, it will be worn as prescribed by CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual. Any CAP uniform, including the CAP blazer combination or appropriate civilian attire, may be worn.

Can anyone come up with a reasonable justification for this special exception allowing legal officers to not wear uniforms?  Just how far does this go?  Does this except them from the requirement to wear a uniform around cadets?  Since I assume this would exempt them from wearing a uniform to regular meetings, I suppose it does. 

Are doctors going to be exempted now? 

[♠SARKID♠]

Wow, thats really....weird...

[FW]

Actually, last time I pondered the issue, there was/is no requirement to wear a uniform in CAP unless working with cadets or flying in CAP aircraft.  

[MIKE]

Table 1-1. sez different. Sixth one down.

[flyboy]

I think you have to look behind the regulation to understand this one.  The regulation encourages squadron commanders to recruit legal officers.  Understand that recruit legal officers means you recruit lawyers to pay to be members and then get them to agree to practice their profession for free for Civil Air Patrol.  The legal officer's focus is very likely not going to be military protocal, but on keeping CAP out of legal problems.   Lawyers do have a professional uniform called the Brooks Brother's suit.  A lawyer appearing before a Court or Adminstrative body on behalf of Civil Air Patrol may be more effective in the tradtional coat and tie of a lawyer than in a CAP uniform.  Also, if representation of CAP occurs in the middle of the day, along with the lawyers regular case work the burden of switching from a coat and tie to the CAP uniform would provide a big disincentive for continuing to provide free legal services to CAP.   

[Major Carrales]

I would say the above is true...the coat and tie may be more effective in the courtroom.

[FW]

Table 1-1. sez different. Sixth one down.

Thanks, Mike.  I guess it was a while since I had to "ponder" the issue.   

[tribalelder]

The reason lawyers get exempted from the uniform is that they wrote the regs. 

[PlaneFlyr]

A proposed regulation for CAP legal officers is available here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R111_001_draft_F128ECEC6CCCA.pdf

I find this provision somewhat troubling (emphasis mine):

8. Uniforms and Insignia:
a. Legal officers are not required to wear a uniform unless required by a specific activity.  When the uniform is worn, it will be worn as prescribed by CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual. Any CAP uniform, including the CAP blazer combination or appropriate civilian attire, may be worn.

I'd rather it say "Legal officers are not required to wear a uniform unless required by a specific activity, however uniform wear should be encouraged".

It would be best for retaining our legal officers if we make them feel like they're "one of us".  Wearing the same uniform tends to encourage teamwork and boost morale. 

[DG]

A proposed regulation for CAP legal officers is available here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R111_001_draft_F128ECEC6CCCA.pdf

I find this provision somewhat troubling (emphasis mine):

8. Uniforms and Insignia:
a. Legal officers are not required to wear a uniform unless required by a specific activity.  When the uniform is worn, it will be worn as prescribed by CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual. Any CAP uniform, including the CAP blazer combination or appropriate civilian attire, may be worn.

Can anyone come up with a reasonable justification for this special exception allowing legal officers to not wear uniforms?  Just how far does this go?  Does this except them from the requirement to wear a uniform around cadets?  Since I assume this would exempt them from wearing a uniform to regular meetings, I suppose it does. 

Are doctors going to be exempted now? 

Methinks your finding that this proposed regulation is troubling is somewhat stale.

It has been this way since at least 1993.

Here is what it says in the current CAPR 111 dated 1 November 1993.

6. Uniforms and Insignia:
a. Legal officers are not required to wear a uniform unless required by a specific activity. When the uniform is worn, it will be worn as prescribed by CAPM 39-1. Any CAP uniform, including the CAP blazer combination and jumpsuit or appropriate civilian attire, may be worn.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I am both a legal officer and a unit commander.  I have known about this regulation since day one.  However, I always try to wear the appropriate uniform for the occasion.   I wear the Air Force or Corp Uniform when addressing the cadets or at awards ceremony's.   I usually wear the polo shirt and greys at regular meetings.   If I have to go to a meeting directly after leaving court, I wear my lawyer uniform of a business suit and tie. 

Let common sense prevail.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I believe the existing regulations, before this 111-1 draft or any stipulation from a 111-series regulation, work just fine. There's no need for some stray clause in some regulation that further countermands CAPM 39-1 (like those don't exist elsewhere already).

If any non-uniform presence is needed, chances are it's for investigational reasons. I can see a clause like that in a 111-series regulation, but that's about it. 39-1 is supposed to be law and gospel, and that's the way it should be. Now if the ICLs will just be incorporated, so we can live up to the core value of INTEGRITY.

(Why I say that: We say "follow the regulations," then undermine them with a whole set of ICLs and policy letters. Either put it in regulation, or at least follow them by writing the ICLs into the regs. Otherwise, you're not following your own rules, which undermines integrity. When NHQ says "do as I say, not as I do," it doesn't encourage good followership and instead creates resentment and grumbling.)

[Short Field]

The intent of the regulation is to entice some of the really good lawyers to contribute their time to supporting CAP without forcing them to behave as regular members.  We have one very experienced lawyer who supports several local squadrons as their legal officer.   He does not participate in CAP activities but is available to provide legal advice when needed.  Why mess that up by requiring him to wear a CAP uniform when he supports us?

[capchiro]

Some legal officers only show up when needed and that would not justify the expense of a uniform.  Also, legal officers represent national and not the local unit.  They are now appointed by the wing legal officer and are truly a part of the wing staff.  If a squadron has a legal officer and something bad happens, the squadron commander may be surprised to find that "his" legal officer is actually not representing his best interests at all, but those of the corporation.  I am not sure that all commanders are aware of this.

[Smokey]

I thought a lawyer's uniform was a sharksuit 

[RiverAux]

Okay, so I'm mad about something that has been in the regs for a while -- nothing new about that.

Seriously though, there are all sorts of "special" people CAP encourages to join, many of which are actually to contribute much more to CAP than most lawyers.  Many of them are also very busy and highly paid individuals. 

Seems to me that the hotshot lawyers are more than likely to be rich enough to buy the same uniform that us poor members are REQUIRED to buy and wear if we want to work with CAP.

As to wearing the CAP uniform to court, I think a properly uniformed CAP attorney is going to have a major impact on the judge and/or jury as opposed to a guy in another plain blue suit.  I think it would increase the credibility of the lawyer tremendously. 

[D2SK]

Okay, so I'm mad about something that has been in the regs for a while -- nothing new about that.

Seriously though, there are all sorts of "special" people CAP encourages to join, many of which are actually to contribute much more to CAP than most lawyers.  Many of them are also very busy and highly paid individuals. 

Seems to me that the hotshot lawyers are more than likely to be rich enough to buy the same uniform that us poor members are REQUIRED to buy and wear if we want to work with CAP.

As to wearing the CAP uniform to court, I think a properly uniformed CAP attorney is going to have a major impact on the judge and/or jury as opposed to a guy in another plain blue suit.  I think it would increase the credibility of the lawyer tremendously. 

You seem very passionate about a lot of CAP regulations.  My suggestion would be to re-write the regulations you do not like and send them through the chain of command.  You have an obvious dislike for lawyers as evidenced by the incredible bias in your post.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Well, looks like we've added yet another combination to the CAP uniform closet...

THE LEGAL OFFICER UNIFORM

Complete with pinstripes and paisley tie. Worn to events where the service dress or the TPU are appropriate.

Kidding aside, the uniform is part of CAP. If legal officers are told the uniform isn't necessary to be worn for many CAP activities (see next paragraph), the encouragement needs to come from CAPM 39-1, not from some scattershot reference in another regulation. (See note below.)

Wear of civilian clothing isn't precluded for senior members at many CAP functions -- so why do we need to put attorneys in their own uniform grotto? Besides, every legal officer I've ever encountered in CAP has worn the blues or the TPU.

NOTE: CAPM 39-1 establishes itself as THE authority and the only authority on CAP uniforms -- not the knowledgebase, not from another regulation, nor from the orders of an individual officer, no matter how high the pay grade (especially when the order dies in 90 days without being codified).

Either we follow our own regulations or procedures or we resort to whatever whim a commander has on a given day. So much for core values. We need to be honest with ourselves before we can trumpet "integrity" to others, especially new members.

Would it be so difficult to just publish a frickin' attachment to the 39-1 rather than create a new uniform from thin air on a piece of paper that's only good for 90 days?

Sorry, but I'm hacked off now. I got myself worked up....

[RiverAux]

You have an obvious dislike for lawyers as evidenced by the incredible bias in your post.

Nope, just an dislike for people that are getting treated differently than the rest of us for no real good reason. 

I think Buckeye is on to something.  If CAP lawyers are required to wear business suits to CAP activities at which they are not wearing the CAP uniform, that would be getting a little closer to fair.  But, if I've got to wear a uniform and the lawyer shows up in shorts, that just ain't going to cut it. 

[heliodoc]

You know RiverAux isn't the only one here that may appear to have a dislike for lawyers

Some , like CAP, have earned a reputation ALL by themselves

Legals and lawyers are not or should not be exempt from CAP 's rules, after all, the are the majority of the problem in todays aviation and litigation in our sue happy society

Not to say that there are some honest ones, but to let them off the uniform hook sure leaves the rest of us with some bad taste toward CAP "regulations"

Start flaming, get in line behind me and RiverAux........but some of the legal types have really pushed the envelope!!

[RiverAux]

You seem very passionate about a lot of CAP regulations.  My suggestion would be to re-write the regulations you do not like and send them through the chain of command. 

I guess I was out of line.  Its not like CAP NHQ posted this draft regulation on the web so members could comment.  Oh, thats right...they did 

[Flying Pig]

Youd be a complete geek if you wore your CAP uniform to court.  Coming from someone who spends a lot of time in one. 

[Short Field]

The first thing you want by your side at a court-martial is a lawyer in a pinstriped suit.   

[PHall]

A proposed regulation for CAP legal officers is available here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R111_001_draft_F128ECEC6CCCA.pdf

I find this provision somewhat troubling (emphasis mine):

8. Uniforms and Insignia:
a. Legal officers are not required to wear a uniform unless required by a specific activity.  When the uniform is worn, it will be worn as prescribed by CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual. Any CAP uniform, including the CAP blazer combination or appropriate civilian attire, may be worn.

Can anyone come up with a reasonable justification for this special exception allowing legal officers to not wear uniforms?  Just how far does this go?  Does this except them from the requirement to wear a uniform around cadets?  Since I assume this would exempt them from wearing a uniform to regular meetings, I suppose it does. 

Are doctors going to be exempted now? 

So what is the problem here and why do you even care?

Does it effect you personally?

You seem to have problems with many CAP Regulations.

Maybe you need to find another organization to participate in because all of this stress you seem to have about CAP Regulations can't be good for you.

[RiverAux]

Maybe you need to find another organization to participate in because all of this stress you seem to have about CAP Regulations can't be good for you.

I appreciate your concern.

[Gunner C]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

[dhon27]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

Well, the provision that people are taking issue with has been in the regulation since November 1993.  As such, it's not something new and apparently noone has seen it as a significant issue in over 15 years.

[RiverAux]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

If you're talking about TP, he was a police officer if I recall. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

If you're talking about TP, he was a police officer if I recall. 

*BUZZ*
Try again. Think "safety pledge," I believe.

[Flying Pig]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

If you're talking about TP, he was a police officer if I recall. 

He is a retired Special Agent with the Florida Dept. of Justice.

[PHall]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

If you're talking about TP, he was a police officer if I recall. 

He is a retired Special Agent with the Florida Dept. of Justice.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement, but you're close enough.

[Gunner C]

Don't forget that our former national commander was a lawyer.  I don't think he ever bought a mess dress until he became a brig gen (saw him at a wing banquet in his home state in a tuxedo).  I think he might have had some input into this.

If you're talking about TP, he was a police officer if I recall. 

Nope, his predecessor.  (Crap, I can't remember his name - he was national legal officer before CC).  He got removed from office for a "quiet scandal" (resigned to spend more time on his law practice - that was the official reason; actual reason was a personnel matter at NHQ).

[DG]

Gen Dwight Wheeless

Manteo NC

A premier lawyer.

[MikeD]

Are doctors going to be exempted now? 

No next up are engineers, who can wear whatever they want, and get free beer after every meeting/event.  Good beer even.   

[RogueLeader]

Are doctors going to be exempted now? 

No next up are engineers, who can wear whatever they want, and get free beer after every meeting/event.  Good beer even.   

Does being an army Engineer count? or only CAP Engineers?

[JayT]

Are doctors going to be exempted now? 

No next up are engineers, who can wear whatever they want, and get free beer after every meeting/event.  Good beer even.   

Semi seriously, a doctor or an engineer will rarely, if ever, be preforming his/her professional duty for CAP.