CAPSTONE - Air Force launches a big change in basic training

[sarmed1]

I never saw one actually demoted, it came up in conversation regarding dui,'s when I was at DM back in the late 90's.  Where enlisted might be able to survive a reduction in grade for said dui but it would be a career ender for an officer.  It was assumed in the conversation that they could choose to continue to serve.  Based on the current  google-fu I may be mistaken in the details of the conversation.  A LOR sounds like the more likely punishment to fit the conversation.

MK

[LSThiker]

Remember that nuclear incident in 2007 between Minot and Barksdale AFB.  This article describes where the officers went after the firing:

http://formerspook.blogspot.com/2008/01/where-are-they-now.html

Not one was demoted over that incident and all allowed to stay in.  Some have gone onto other command positions.  Col Westhauser has given talks to the ASCS class about the incident.  I got to see his talk.  He was quite humble over the incident. 

[DoubleSecret]

I would be curious as well. The only reduction in officer rank that I have seen is an administrative reduction. That was for the National Guard where an M-day officer wanted an AGR position but was already too high for the slot. So the Guard administratively reduced his rank to be eligible for the slot.   I have heard that for both officer and enlisted.

Been a while since I had experienced this issue. Doesn't that officer still retire at the higher rank if they don't make it back first?

An officer retires in the highest grade satisfactorily held.  10 U.S. Code § 1370.  So, suppose you have an officer who worked up to O-6 with 3 years time in grade in the medical corps.  For some reason the O-6 and USAF decide he should be a line officer.  He resigns as a medical corps colonel, immediately accepts a commission in a lower grade in the line of the Air Force (LAF), and never works his way back up to O-6.  That officer would be eligible for retirement in the higher grade.

Similar things happen with former Air National Guard adjutants general who held the grade of Maj Gen/Brig Gen for the requisite period, and later accepted an appointment in a lower grade when replaced as AG.

When Maj Gen Fiscus got in trouble and had to retire as a colonel, he was a major general right up until the end of his active duty tenure.  He was placed on the retired list in his highest satisfactorily-held grade, colonel, as determined by SecAF.

Short version:  It's not highest grade held, it's highest grade satisfactorily held as determined by the service secretary.  In cases of misconduct or inadequate performance, the highest grade held is sometimes deemed not to have been held satisfactorily.  Heck, look at Admiral (later retired Rear Admiral) Kimmel of Pearl Harbor fame.  He reverted to RADM on relief and never got the other two stars back.  This practice has been around for awhile.

[PHall]

The usual way Officers are shown the door is by being passed over for promotion twice in a row. A couple of "bad" OER's can usually ensure you won't get promoted.
So will an UIF from getting an Article 15.
There are also High Year of Tenure rules that state how long you can stay in the service at each grade.
The main one that sticks out to me is that Major (O-3) has a HYT of 18 years. But they can be "Selectivity Continued" for 2 more years if they're in an AFSC the Air Force really needs.
(I've seen that done more then once!)

[lordmonar]

The usual way Officers are shown the door is by being passed over for promotion twice in a row. A couple of "bad" OER's can usually ensure you won't get promoted.
So will an UIF from getting an Article 15.
There are also High Year of Tenure rules that state how long you can stay in the service at each grade.
The main one that sticks out to me is that Major (O-3) has a HYT of 18 years. But they can be "Selectivity Continued" for 2 more years if they're in an AFSC the Air Force really needs.
(I've seen that done more then once!)

ehhhhhmmmmmm.........O-3 is a Capt.   

But yes....it does not take a whole lot to screw up an O's career.  Also.....most things that are bad enough to get an O demoted......usually also get the O booted for conduct unbecoming.   Also.....officers can resign at the drop of a hat (if they have not accrued a Active Duty Service Commitment and even then....the service is willing to waive for someone the are ready demote) so most officers faced with a demotion just get out.

[Storm Chaser]

In the Air Force, enlisted members may recover from an Article 15 or the like. That's not the case with officers. An Article 15 will most likely end their careers. That's the main reason an officer may get a Letter of Reprimand (LoR) for an offense that an enlisted member would likely get an Article 15 for.

[lordmonar]

In the Air Force, enlisted members may recover from an Article 15 or the like. That's not the case with officers. An Article 15 will most likely end their careers. That's the main reason an officer may get a Letter of Reprimand (LoR) for an offense that an enlisted member would likely get an Article 15 for.

An official letter of reprimand for an enlisted guy may result in an UIF....control roster....bad EPR.  Six months to a year later......it may be as if it never happened (except for the EPR...that will follow you for up to 10 years).   For an officer the LOR goes into the promotion file for ever.   They can still get promoted....but they will have to deal with that screw up for their entire career.

I used to have this discussion with my Airman from time to time when they heard about some officer or senior NCO getting off "easy" on something that would have cost an airman a stripe. 

[PHall]

Depends on what your job is. If you have a high level security clearance and especially if you're on PRP, your UIF will never really go away, it will just be listed an "inactive" and will still be visible to your Commander.

[lordmonar]

Depends on what your job is. If you have a high level security clearance and especially if you're on PRP, your UIF will never really go away, it will just be listed an "inactive" and will still be visible to your Commander.

That's true....but generally.....you can even survive a PRP disqual or even a SCI disqual....a whole lot easier then an officer can.

[abdsp51]

It still doesn't stop the issue that this has been around for who knows how long and only gets attention when its a higher up that gets into trouble for it.  The DoD has made progress with dealing with it but at the end of the day all the little programs that have come about due it have not done anything to alleviate the problem.  I would like to see the data that shows that SARC/SAPR has had anything to do with an ounce of prevention.

Swift, and firm prosecution for anyone committing these types of offenses is what is needed regardless of what is worn on the collar or sleeve.  No mitigating, no downgrading nothing when you are found guilty and the sentence is done then let it be done. 

[flyboy53]

In the Air Force, enlisted members may recover from an Article 15 or the like. That's not the case with officers. An Article 15 will most likely end their careers. That's the main reason an officer may get a Letter of Reprimand (LoR) for an offense that an enlisted member would likely get an Article 15 for.

An official letter of reprimand for an enlisted guy may result in an UIF....control roster....bad EPR.  Six months to a year later......it may be as if it never happened (except for the EPR...that will follow you for up to 10 years).   For an officer the LOR goes into the promotion file for ever.   They can still get promoted....but they will have to deal with that screw up for their entire career.

I used to have this discussion with my Airman from time to time when they heard about some officer or senior NCO getting off "easy" on something that would have cost an airman a stripe.

It depends on where the Article 15 and UIF occurs during their career. Early on, it may mean earning the rank back but not changing the discharge code or character of discharge. Later on, its a career ender.

I knew an ANG senior master sergeant who was recalled to Air Force active duty as a technical sergeant and had alcoholism issues. After two years on active duty, the stress of our duties was such that he started drinking even when on the job and got passed over (red lined) for master sergeant because of his conduct.

Obviously, there were LORs and a UIF opened but the drinking continued. One morning, he was found passed out in his car in an off-base parking lot instead of reporting for duty. Then came an Article 15 and reduction in rank to staff sergeant. The issues continued. He self admitted himself to the base hospital for treatment but that didn't stop a new Article 15 and a reduction to senior airman. His issues didn't end and the last action was an administrative discharge at E-4 to avoid reduction to airman basic. He was over 20 for pay purposes but not even retirement eligible reserve-wise.

If my memory is correct, that process occurred over the course of eight months.

[flyboy53]

In the Air Force, enlisted members may recover from an Article 15 or the like. That's not the case with officers. An Article 15 will most likely end their careers. That's the main reason an officer may get a Letter of Reprimand (LoR) for an offense that an enlisted member would likely get an Article 15 for.

An official letter of reprimand for an enlisted guy may result in an UIF....control roster....bad EPR.  Six months to a year later......it may be as if it never happened (except for the EPR...that will follow you for up to 10 years).   For an officer the LOR goes into the promotion file for ever.   They can still get promoted....but they will have to deal with that screw up for their entire career.

I used to have this discussion with my Airman from time to time when they heard about some officer or senior NCO getting off "easy" on something that would have cost an airman a stripe.

It depends on where the Article 15 and UIF occurs during their career. Early on, it may mean earning the rank back but not changing the discharge code or character of discharge. Later on, its a career ender.

I knew an ANG senior master sergeant who was recalled to Air Force active duty as a technical sergeant and had alcoholism issues. After two years on active duty, the stress of our duties was such that he started drinking even when on the job and got passed over (red lined) for master sergeant because of his conduct.

Obviously, there were LORs and a UIF opened but the drinking continued. One morning, he was found passed out in his car in an off-base parking lot instead of reporting for duty. Then came an Article 15 and reduction in rank to staff sergeant. The issues continued. He self admitted himself to the base hospital for treatment but that didn't stop a new Article 15 and a reduction to senior airman. His issues didn't end and the last action was an administrative discharge at E-4 to avoid reduction to airman basic. He was over 20 for pay purposes but not even retirement eligible reserve-wise.

If my memory is correct, that process occurred over the course of eight months. Gives a whole new meaning to how hard it might be to earn a Good Conduct Medal for some people.